Who's a better CBM feminist? Wonder Woman or Captain Marvel?

She is bro. She was always a feminist. She was always betraying us?

I don't understand why people use feminism negatively today. It was never meant to be a negative term, the actual concept since its creation supports equality between men and women.

And Wonder Woman, both as a film and as a character, is far better than Captain Marvel, who is overhated but nothing particularly exciting.

@anthp2000: It has negative connotations due to the stereotype that all feminists are "Feminazis" in the like, and while I don't like those kinds of people it's usually an exaggeration.

@joker567892:

The feminazi term is an entirely different thing (a ridiculous one at that). I think it went downhill with the word feminism a while ago because as usual, the uneducated society doesn't know anything. This drags down self proclaimed feminists who believe in the real cause of the term - technically, as long as you believe in gender equality and fight for it to any degree, you're a feminist, wether you say it or not. And it's not a bad thing.

@anthp2000: Hmm, Agreed.

This is wrong.

You literally called Captain Marvel a Mary Sue, then argued in every other thread how Scarlett Witch will beat her. A Mary Sue

Scarlet Witch beating Carol doesn't stop her from being a Mary Sue. You see, Wanda is a perfect example of a powerful character done right: at first in AoU she was street-level, with some powerful showings here and there. It was clear, however, that she had to learn. She also lost both of her parents and her brother to Iron Man and Ultron and had to learn to cope with that. She trains with the Avengers, becoming more powerful. Then, in Civil War, she nearly saves the day but loses control and ends up destroying a hospital and killing dozens or hundreds of innocents. She has to grow beyond this as well, but this action triggers the fast-tracking of the Accords, which fracture the Avengers and cause everyone more pain in the end. Wanda loses so much at this point and you can start to sympathize with her and her actions. In Infinity War, she has moved on and grown in power even more and has fallen in love with Vision. She uses her power to tragically kill her lover to save the universe. However, this is for nothing and Vision dies in vain in the end. Wanda is now a top tier powerhouse in the MCU and has lost so much. When she goes to Thanos and fodderizes him, all of the emotion behind her past and the growth in power makes sense and makes this an earned feat.

Captain Marvel is the exact opposite of this. She accidentally stumbles upon her powers. She loses nothing over the course of the movie. She is still powerful, however, because that's how her character is. Furthermore, she is confident, good-hearted, and is portrayed as a character without any personality or physical flaws. She doesn't really overcome anything and breezes through life as a guardian and protector of the universe. They could have fleshed out her backstory in a compelling way, but her betrayal and overcoming of Kree restraints are brushed past as if it didn't exist.

Then comes Endgame. She swoops in and saves Iron Man, gets an awful haircut, destroys the ship that would have killed everyone, and nearly beats a full IG Thanos without breaking a sweat. What has she lost? Literally just Nick Fury, who she knew for a few days before leaving to scout the galaxy. Ant-Man is a more developed character than her. Actually, it would make more sense thematically if Ant-Man nearly defeated Thanos by going up his butt, because he's lost much more because of Thanos and is a more layered character. This is what makes Carol a Mary Sue: she's unnecessarily powerful without any flaws and never earns anything. In her solo movie, she reaches her max power level by the end of the film and fodderizes the enemies so easily. In Endgame she breezes through competition and plays several major roles in progressing the plot without any substance or reason character-wise. She's a plot device and a political agenda device. She's definitely a Mary Sue.

Then the above statement you made from getting triggered by single word HERo. Are you triggered by Genders.

I don't see how you came to the conclusion that they are triggered, but that is their point to defend. The issue here is rather that you ignore a major point they made: the film was using her status as a female as a crutch and substitute for an interesting premise and character. Her entire worth as a character is rendered useless if you take away her power level and her state of being a woman. Refuting this with "are you triggered by Genders" doesn't work in the slightest.

Are you triggered by IronMAN, spiderMAN,a superMAN. Are they different from Woman.

I don't see the similarity... Iron Man is a man, would you prefer Iron Person? Spider-Woman, She-Hulk, Supergirl, Batgirl, Catwoman, and Wonder Woman are all great female superheroes and their names have a feminine base... Plus, @emmafrostxmen is arguing in favor of Wonder WOMAN, so that completely refutes that entire argument.

The marketing of Captain Marvel as a HERo implies that her importance is based on being a woman instead of being a regular hero. That has nothing to do with what you said.

Why does Wonder Woman have WOMAN in her title? Is she different from men

Yes... She's a WOMAN. Wonder Woman has that title because she's a woman and so people use that to distinguish her from male superheroes, like Wonder Man.

Does APACHE HELICOPTER trigger you too? Is the helicopter superior than men and Woman?

Of course it's superior to both...

Wonder Woman.

Captain Marvel is barely a Feminist movie.

@thespartanb345t: Your Entire Argument falls apart because CM loses everything including her identity, her mentor, her friends, her life and is brainwashed and is used as a Tool by Krees.

Also you are comparing a character who have appeared in multiple movies to a character who has appeared in one movie 5 min in another one

Both Scarlet Witch and Carol are powered by the infinity stones which makes both of them powerful enough to fight Thanos. She prevents Thanos from use IG so she is fighting base Thanos unlike Dr Strange who fought Thanos with multiple stones.

Your argument defending @emmafrostxmen and shoving gender down our throats by superheroes like Wonder Woman does not make any sense. Thor, Hulk, Green Lantern Flash, Captain America etc don't shove Gender down my throat by putting it in their f##king GENDER in the name.

Does APACHE HELICOPTER trigger you too? Is the helicopter superior than men and Woman?

Of course it's superior to both...

You are misogynist, misandrist, and Racist if you believe that.

@thespartanb345t: Poor little snowflake. I wasn’t triggered by anything, I just though the premise of the word pun was stupid.

Captain Marvel wasn’t a Mary Sue in Endgame anymore because she wasn’t able to beat the villain single handily. So it’s completely fine to argue Wanda can beat Carol.

Your argument is dumb, my old posts about Carol being a Mary Sue are from when her solo movie came out, but after Endgame I no longer think the same. (Also if I said jokes about Carol being a Mary Sue on Gen Discussion, I was being sarcastic, and trolling)

Don’t bring the name Wonder “Woman” into this because that has historically been her name for years, and it’s iconic. As opposed to the catch phrase HERo, which is only there to say “look I’m a woman, and also a superhero”. It’s dumb, and redundant. I hope they realize this because the Captain Marvel character can be fine if they just get rid of the older marketing campaign from her first movie.

I’m not triggered by anything, but you appear to be the one triggered enough to tag me and ramble on about an opinion based thread.

@agent41 pointed out Captain Marvel has showing Gender down our throat like Wonder Woman for years by her Ms Marvel name. So you are getting triggered over without any logic

@emmafrostxmen: Why do you have men in your name?

CM was not a Mary Sue even in her own.movie. She lost lot of fights. So even that is without logic.

@tobymaguire: More redundant thoughts from you? ‘Men’ is in my name because that is a famous name of a superhero team, the x men? Such a stupid question. On the other hand “HERo” is not a famous term at all, it is simply emphasizing she is a girl and a superhero (again it’s so stupid).

Captain Marvel by the end of her movie was a Mary Sue, because she solo’ed everyone without getting hurt once after her power was activated. This is a very Mary Sue feat, and if Superman had the same feat I would say the same about him (Superman is a Mary Sue character anyway).

@emmafrostxmen: So was WW once she activated her God powers in her own movie or Thor in Thor 1 once he got his hammer. Are they Mary Sue's

I can’t see Wonder Woman ever being topped as the number 1 female hero.

The entire reason she beats the villain is because she is the daughter of f##king Zeus. She was born as a God. Hey girls you can be empowered if your Daddy is a God! Lol

Carol meanwhile got her powers by trying to destroy light speed engine before Krees could kill her. She was not a God born in Utopia but a normal woman born in 60s, and becomes a fighter pilot when Woman heavily discouraged from joining the Air force.

There is nothing organic about MCU where it took 11 years to make a female solo movie and same for WW who had to wait 40 years after Superman to get her movie after Green Lantern got his

@luminoushydra: Zeus gave her power to absorb lightning because he knew that is how Ares kills. Also Diana was never any danger in the movie. Stop pretending Bullets can kill WW who is a God. She was never in any danger.

Carol was almost dead in the movie after she absorbed Infinity stone. It is only because of Krees wanting to use her power that she survived.

Did you forget WW scene where Steve trying to cover because her legs were showing? Or when big meeting stopped because there was a woman, or WW asking Woman are not fighting war or wearing armour. The entire movie was trying to portray some feminist message that Woman was mistreated by society? Woman don't need men for pleasure? What? Why?

Captain Marvel also had those scenes which was thankfully reduced to 30 sec flashback rather 2 hours why Woman can't do this, that etc?

If being Woman is what makes you strong, then well 50% of population in MCU, DCEU will be powerful.

@agent41: The training mean sh#t against her fight against Ares. Basically it had nothing to do with training or sword but her God powers because her father Is Zeus.

At least you admitted Diana can be killed by Bullets. Glad finally coming back to reality.

@tobymaguire: No Wonder Woman was shown to be roughly equal to Ares before that moment, and she used her gauntlets which as everyone knows are magical and can redirect attacks. She ended Ares with his own powers. If she was a Mary Sue she would have ended him without help, and just her bare hands. Also Diana is not a Mary Sue because she has lost numerous times against Doomsday, Superman, and Steppenwolf. Superman and Captain Marvel (from the end of her solo movie specifically) are Mary Sue’s because the don’t lose, basically ever, and they are as powerful as the plot demands.

Thor just got a boost after getting his hammer, but he was no Mary Sue. All the hammer did was give him back his powers, and we have seen him lose many times in the MCU. As we all know he didn’t have enough power to beat Thanos, Hela, Full Surtur, ect.... Thor, Wonder Woman, Captain Marvel (Endgame) are not Mary Sue’s

Now now, you know the comic book fandom cannot handle things like that unless it's veiled using Mutants or aliens.

@luminoushydra:

Wdym? WW can be hurt by conventional weapons, that's why she uses her shield against bullets. God is an irrelevant title.

Only God can be killed by another God. That is literally in the movie. Plus we already saw how powerful was when she fought Doomsday. So you are telling me DC Zeus can be killed by bullets

And despite that, it wasn't forced. That is my point. "Woman don't need men for pleasure? What? Why?" Dunno what you're talking about here.

Lol, you don't even remember the movie. And you say definitely not forced

And you completely ignored every point I made about how OP they made Cap marvel in relation to everyone else and how she breezed through every villain easily.

What about Superman? Is he OP compared to everyone including poor God WW because he is a Male. Carol literally get captured and defeated multiple times in the movie. Lol

Wonder Woman didn't make me feel bad for simply having a penis.

How did CM made you feel bad?

Wonder Woman and it is not even close. She showed how strong female characters can be a leading role in a Comic Book Movie. Captain Marvel showed how you should never make a movie due to agenda only, or put fans in a situation where they are nobody who deserve nothing but to shut up because they are males, while also being arrogant and clearly forcing someone to bite on with absolutely no reason to do so other than the fact that they told you to.

What does that even mean?

Better feminist is kind of an oxymoron.

I don't hate Captain Marvel nearly as much as many people seem to, but I would side with Wonder Woman in just about any comparison of the two. She's just the better character in the better film.

Jessica Jones stomps both guys

But If I had to pick, Marvel. Diana isn't a feminist and doesn't count, she didn't vote for Clinton

Wow, Edgy

@godzilla44 said:

Decent bait lol. Tis why Diana's a better role model. xD

A lot of people would say otherwise. lol

@tobymaguire: It means we are suppose to disregard 10 years of development from all the characters we connected to and suddenly this woman nobody cares about is not only the most powerful person out there (with no reason apparently), but she will come in, fix the problem and has all this cool abilities. And not only that, but she will suddenly be the face of MCU despite the fact that she does not deserve anything close to it, but you gotta deal with it.

Of course, that is not actually what happened, thanks to good directors like Russo Brothers, but that is the vibe Kevin Feige, producers and Brie Larson left us with before, during and after the release of the movie. You are suppose to like all of it with no reason other than the fact that they told you to. Wonder Woman is just another movie. Nobody tried to sell her as goddess among heroes or this perfection who will lead everyone. It's just a movie people wanted to make, and it worked (mostly).

@krleavenger: She is there to replace Thor and Hulk for Phase 4. Endgame was suppose to be the end of the original Avengers. Marvel simply used the Avengers to launch her. She was barely in the movie. You think Marvel is that stupid. They literally made twenty two movies while DC.....?

Brie Larson have nothing to do with Captain Marvel. Kevin Feige said Captain Marvel was going to be most powerful MCU character in 2014 when Brie Larson was nobody. She won an Oscar in 2016 and immediately got casted.

It's F##king WW, man! Nobody need to sell her as anything other than THE WONDER WOMAN! You know mother of superheroines, Femnist Icon and the most popular female comic character meanwhile if you ask casual who Captain Marvel is back a year ago.

@tobymaguire: She's to replace Cap as well.

Then What will Black Panther do! Plus they also said she is gonna move Planets and moon. Maybe they will split the team into Comic and Earth Avengers and she will be the leader of cosmic with Nova, Spectrum etc

I really don't see T'Challa leading the whole Avengers (even the Earth group) seeing how Sam got the shield now. I think that also meant leading the whole group. They probably wouldn't let Captain Marvel fully commit or lead the Avengers either seeing how she got other responsibilities and how it would ruin her independent woman representation idk.

@luminoushydra:

Superman never no sold hits from the endgame JL villain. He has been hurt by other things too. Cap Marvel has not.

Superman is not strong because he is male. He is strong because he is Superman.

Superman never no sold hits in JL. He was too f##king fast that he can literally statue everybody else except flash. He was smiling like an idiot and saying corny jokes never taking the villain seriously. He single handedly destroyed JL and also DCEU.No to mention beating Entire Justice League like nothing.

Your memory is seriously weak Man!

Also Captain Marvel literally got blasted off the battle field by Thanos power stone punch. Thanos stopped her with power Stone

I think you misunderstand, I agree with nearly everything that you said here and am just arguing with someone else that quoted you in the thread. I'm not sure if you're confusing me with someone else, but I never intended to argue against you.

@thespartanb345t: Your Entire Argument falls apart because CM loses everything including her identity, her mentor, her friends, her life and is brainwashed and is used as a Tool by Krees.

She doesn't lose it, she remembers everything and gains everything back by the end of the film. Her friend is back, her life is 10 times better as an ultra-powered superhero, her identity is re-remembered and she breaks free of the brainwashing at the end. Her arc finishes way too quickly.

Also you are comparing a character who have appeared in multiple movies to a character who has appeared in one movie 5 min in another one

Which makes Marvel a Mary Sue: despite being in only 2 movies, she has already become one of, if not the, most powerful hero in the verse simply for existing. It isn't appealing, especially when the conflict against her is non-existent.

Both Scarlet Witch and Carol are powered by the infinity stones which makes both of them powerful enough to fight Thanos.

Yeah, not buying this one. Wanda still had to learn over time and grew in power. Carol just was powerful, because... yeah. Also, Wanda's counter to the stones is explicitly stated, while Carol's is not. The nature of her powers is completely different.

She prevents Thanos from use IG so she is fighting base Thanos

And Base Thanos>=Thor, Iron Man, and Captain America since he fought them all at once and nearly beat them all.

unlike Dr Strange who fought Thanos with multiple stones.

We've also seen Strange grow in power. In his solo, he was pretty terrible, but in Ragnarok, he clearly showed mastery and by IW he was very experienced. While this too is a short arc, it is better than instant power.

Your argument defending @emmafrostxmen and shoving gender down our throats by superheroes like Wonder Woman does not make any sense. Thor, Hulk, Green Lantern Flash, Captain America etc don't shove Gender down my throat by putting it in their f##king GENDER in the name.

Wow.

you are misogynist, misandrist, and Racist if you believe that.

I truly apologize, I'll try to do better in the future.

@thespartanb345t: Carol is f##king older than most Avengers and has been a superhero longer than anyone. So comparing her to Dr Strange or Wanda learning powers is stupid. She has been saving Galaxy for 25 years.

Also is MCU over or something, Is Korvac, Silver Surfer, Galactus, Adam Warlock, Nova, Spectrum, Doom, etc not gonna enter MCU or something. You are literally making childish statements

Wanda, Strange > Base Thanos

Wanda is a broken character which literally does whatever plot demands. She will be doing high end feats but then struggle to fight to Thanos's children.

The reason Wanda can destroy the stone is because her power comes from infinity stone same as Carol.

Also yeah Wonder Woman need to stop showing her Gender down my throat. The feminist propaganda is insane.

@tobymaguire:

Carol is f##king older than most Avengers and has been a superhero longer than anyone. So comparing her to Dr Strange or Wanda learning powers is stupid. She has been saving Galaxy for 25 years.

Nope, she was just as powerful in her first movie. There wasn't a noticeable difference in Endgame and Captain Marvel.

Also is MCU over or something, Is Korvac, Silver Surfer, Galactus, Adam Warlock, Nova, Spectrum, Doom, etc not gonna enter MCU or something. You are literally making childish statements

How is this relevant? They haven't yet, we don't know when or if they will, that's just a cop-out.

Wanda, Strange > Base Thanos

Wanda's earned her power level, as I've explained. Strange has as well, we've seen him learn and suffer for years in the Dark Dimension, and he's clearly dedicated to his magic and learning. Carol hasn't. Furthermore, Strange and Wanda are both extremely powerful in the comics, while Carol isn't.

Wanda is a broken character which literally does whatever plot demands. She will be doing high end feats but then struggle to fight to Thanos's children.

Wanda beating Thanos really didn't progress the plot at all, it just happened. Had she not done that, the film wouldn't have changed. That's not really a plot device.

The reason Wanda can destroy the stone is because her power comes from infinity stone same as Carol.

She can destroy the stone she was made from, not all of them. Carol only came from the space stone, so does she specifically counter that?

Also yeah Wonder Woman need to stop showing her Gender down my throat. The feminist propaganda is insane.

Okay.