The outriders obviously. In IW they had avengers and wakandan army helpless. Now in endgame they couldn't handle half of that army, plus a bunch of other heroes. And there wwre chitauri, leviathans, black order including maw etc supporting them. Plus lot of other armies.
@apex_pretador: since it was years in the past, there may not have been as many Outriders. But there were those big alien creatures. The Chitauri seemed to be Thanos's primary force in EG. Losing them all before Infinity War probably made Thanos prioritize Outriders and their numbers. But besides just considering numbers, the EG army on the heroes' side was stronger, with Asgardians and more superheroes.
Thanos was a whipping machine, he fell the worst Black order is just whack in the mcu so meh and Thor was fat that was more a knock on his personality and character then it was a power level thing. 5 years of sedentary lifestyle plus bad eating habits especially drinking gots to have its affect
EG Thor is underestimated. Though he was weaker than IW Thor, he is still very powerful.
Outside of 5 years of combat, Thor still manages to one shot Iron Man (when Thanos uses Tony as a shield). EG Iron Man, logically, should be more powerful than IW Iron Man. IW Iron Man took the power Stone and survived and here, he’s one spotted by Thor.
Also, in the beginning of IW, Thor also gets defeated by Thanos who may or may not have used the power Stone.
In EG, in the Trio v Thanos scene, it seems as if Tony is more of hinderance than a help. Thor wastes a perfectly good lightning shot on powering up Tony and his SB Mjolnir combo is wasted by Tony acting as a shield.
Yes, when I think about it now it looks more like that. Only Maw did something (according to Russos' statements), but Cull & Glaive were really horrible.
The outriders obviously. In IW they had avengers and wakandan army helpless. Now in endgame they couldn't handle half of that army, plus a bunch of other heroes. And there wwre chitauri, leviathans, black order including maw etc supporting them. Plus lot of other armies.
Tbf, hero army was also muuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuch larger. Ravagers and the armies of Kamar Taj, as well as a BUUUUUUNCH more named heroes.
Iron Man is up there, got one shotted by Mjolnir, didn't fight 2014 Thanos nearly as good as he did IW Thanos, was getting clapped by Cull.
Iron Man should've always been one-shotted by Mjolnir, but Whedon Iron Man was quite overpowered. Stalemating Thor and knocking out Hulk. I know people complain about Russo Cap, but he's not the only one hitting above his weight, it's just Iron Man is using advanced technology so more excuses can be made (even though it makes no sense since it was only his sixth suit and he was doing well against Thor). If anything, it was Mjolnir being done justice. Iron Man in Infinity War was going against a more casual Thanos who "respected" him enough to not use all his tricks and powers to win. Endgame Thanos was much more serious and ready for war. Iron Man may be 35 suits from the mark 50 but none of them were tested on a Thanos level target. Stark still wasn't ready for a fight with Thanos and he had trouble with Cull in both movies. Cull doesn't hold back. Thanos did in IW, but not in EG. Not holding back seems to lead to Iron Man losing when against Hulk level or higher bricks.
@rebake: That’s really not the same as cap, Tony uses new suits for his fights, and he’s only as powerful or as weak as his suits unlike cap who just gets stronger or weaker depending on the plot. Why should Tony be one shotted by Mjolnir? This isn’t the comics.
@rebake: That’s really not the same as cap, Tony uses new suits for his fights, and he’s only as powerful or as weak as his suits unlike cap who just gets stronger or weaker depending on the plot. Why should Tony be one shotted by Mjolnir? This isn’t the comics.
But then we notice earlier suits doing some things supposedly better than later suits. So we get similar inconsistencies, but just can excuse it away as "different suit". Still plot related because the Mark 6 had trouble with Whiplash who is nowhere near Thor. His whips did more damage than Thor's hammer despite the hammer being shown to be able to do much more damage. Mark 85 is supposed to be a significant improvement to the Mark 50, even using energy shields over physical ones. But yet the Mark 6 took a hammer toss pretty well and was still fine enough to kick Thor through a tree. Let's not forget the convenient abilities to absorb lightning and scan Cap's fighting style. Doesn't matter who had more of a plot amp, the point is that it happens with Iron Man too. And it happened earlier than it did for Cap, who before the Russos was underwhelming. Iron Man has more trouble in his own films than he does in Avengers films usually. He was untouched by Loki and can easily shoot him first, destroys one of Ultron's bodies, beats Hulk, stalemates Thor, and even in IW was the first to make Thanos bleed. Not even Thor or Hulk on the ship did that. So Iron Man gets a lot of big moments in team-up films showing his power (which only makes sense due to his popularity). Since Iron Man's big moment in EG was the snap he got less of a 1v1 showing against Thanos while, Cap got a great, but less significant moment with Mjolnir. That's how the plot was working for those two in Endgame. Tony had to be out of the picture and the writers used a logical reason that should've been valid since the beginning. Maybe the suit can withstand the blunt force, but the wearer shouldn't be able to. Stark should've been ko'd in Avengers, but they had to make them fight and end it in a way where fans could debate who's stronger. I still remember comments of people thinking Iron Man was going to win. It makes sense for Iron Man to get one-shotted by Mjolnir. Glad they actually showed such a powerful weapon being powerful instead of something Stark could handle easily with a few more iterations after the Mark 6. Bc it really did look like Iron Man would eventually outclass Thor at that rate.
Tbf, hero army was also muuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuch larger.
It would only be half of Wakandan Army that was just brought back to life. I don't think the additional forces made up for the sheer numbers.
Ravagers
The guys from GotG2? Don't remember them.
and the armies of Kamar Taj,
This invasion had Chitauri army including Leiathans. I think that balances it out?
as well as a BUUUUUUNCH more named heroes.
The big 3 were busy with Thanos the entire time so you can count them out, and the villains had Maw as well. There was no Banner here so pepper balances it out, and guardians barely make difference against such massive numbers.
Outriders swarmed everyone and everything far quicker in IW, despite apparently bigger battlefield. Add those giant robotic apes and I think things balance out.
It would only be half of Wakandan Army that was just brought back to life. I don't think the additional forces made up for the sheer numbers.
In IW it was the Outrider Army and the Black Order (sans Maw) against the entire Wakandan Forces + named heroes (Cap, Widow, Okoye, Panther, War Machine, Falcon, to a small extent Wanda, Hulkbuster, Bucky and then Teen Groot, Rocket, and Thor :// might be missing one or two, but that was the ones I remember atm). Another small part to note being those giant wheel thresher thingies.
Now it's the Endgame. You've got the Outrider Army (regular Outriders), Chitauri (regular and ape things as well as Leviathans), some other fodder troops (the ones Star-Lord fought), and I believe that was it. Oh, and the Black Order. This time around for the good guy side, you still have the entire might of the Wakandan Forces but you also see they brought in the air support. You've got Ravagers, who you mentioned you don't remember, but they had advanced alien weaponry that should at least be notable. The armies of Kamar Taj, meaning a shit ton of sorcerers. I also forgot to mention the remnants of the entire Asgardian army (you can see them arrive with Valkyrie).
However, the biggest thing to note imo are the named heroes. First of all, you said this:
The big 3 were busy with Thanos the entire time so you can count them out,
Which is blatantly untrue, given we saw a Rescue/Iron Man team-up scene as well as the "take the smaller hammer" moment between Thor and Cap. Heading the big names include Mjolnir Cap, Thor, War Machine, Scarlet Witch, Valkyrie on a pegasus, Rescue, freaking Doctor Strange, Wong, and Giant-Man. To a lesser extent one-armed Hulk, I guess. Of slightly less note: Star-Lord, Okoye, Panther, Shuri, Spider-Man, Rocket, Groot, Drax, Gamora, Nebula, Wasp, M'Baku, Howard the Duck (lol), Mantis (lol), Falcon, Winter Soldier, and I'm certain a crap ton more.
The only one absent from Infinity War being Natasha, with Cap getting an upgrade and Banner getting a downgrade. You also add Stark, Thor (since he wasn't there at the beginning), Wanda (who didn't enter the Wakanda fight until after Thor arrived), Strange, Giant-Man, Valkyrie, and Rescue. That's a lot more powerhouses, plus the Wakandan Air Force.
@supremegeneration: This time around for the good guy side, you still have the entire might of the Wakandan Forces
But it wasn't full wakandan army, only half, those who were snapped, iirc. Actually well below half since it wouldn't include the characters who died in battle, only the snapped ones.
plus the Wakandan Air Force
Was also there in IW.
You've got Ravagers, who you mentioned you don't remember
I most definitely don't remember them. It does close the gap significantly if they were present
I also forgot to mention the remnants of the entire Asgardian army (you can see them arrive with Valkyrie)
Yeah but there were barely any army members left after Hela's assault. In final battle of Ragnarok, we saw Asgard had mostly only vulnerable civilians left. Then half of them were killed on the ship.
Valkyrie is strong but she's not an army by herself.
Which is blatantly untrue, given we saw a Rescue/Iron Man team-up scene as well as the "take the smaller hammer" moment between Thor and Cap
These were very minor moments. Most of the time they were busy fighting Thanos or getting Knocked out. They killed maybe dozen outriders and at best 1-2 leviathans.
War Machine,
He took significant damage during the assault on HQ, so would be less effective in battle.
Heading the big names include Mjolnir Cap, Thor, War Machine, Scarlet Witch, Valkyrie on a pegasus, Rescue, freaking Doctor Strange, Wong, and Giant-Man. To a lesser extent one-armed Hulk, I guess. Of slightly less note: Star-Lord, Okoye, Panther, Shuri, Spider-Man, Rocket, Groot, Drax, Gamora, Nebula, Wasp, M'Baku, Howard the Duck (lol), Mantis (lol), Falcon, Winter Soldier, and I'm certain a crap ton more.
The only one absent from Infinity War being Natasha, with Cap getting an upgrade and Banner getting a downgrade. You also add Stark, Thor (since he wasn't there at the beginning), Wanda (who didn't enter the Wakanda fight until after Thor arrived), Strange, Giant-Man, Valkyrie, and Rescue. That's a lot more powerhouses, plus the Wakandan Air Force.
IMO it balances out.
Strange was first busy shielding everyone then was stopping the water wave. His powers also don't suit fodder-wrecking outside BFR, atleast as of now. Adding Maw on the other side balances the presence too.
Others - Pepper, Valkyrie, Spidey, Quill and Drax, etc. If you put them in Wakanda Battle instead of Thor, what do you see? I see dead avengers, dead guardians, dead wakandans. Adding Ravagers would not even substitute for the remaining half+ of wakandan army due to sheer difference in numbers. And even if it did, lets not forget there were still many more outriders than those who swarmed the battlefueld in less than 2 minutes.
The fodder sorecerers definitely aren't suited against large armies of fodder. IMO Wakandan shield > kamartaj army. Uncountable outriders died due to that shield, and it allowed the heroes to restrict their entry-points to the battlefield.
Giant-Man is good, but he's matched or surpassed by the chitauri army + leviathans combined.
Maybe I'm overthinking, but honestly Thanos's army didn't feel like a threat at all in Endgame.
In Infinity War before Thor's arrival - they legitimately looked dead just by getting swarmed in 1.5 minutes, with a powerful wakandan shield and being prepared to fight. In comparison, in Endgame they also have Chitauri army of A1, the giant ape cratures, some other kind of army and prepared Army against Avengers who were ambushed. They have their top 3 fodder wreckers locked against Thanos for 95% of their fight time, 4th biggest fodder wrecker seems in bad condition minutes before the battle starts, 5th biggest fodder wrecker doesn't do anything except destroy the Sanctuary 2 and get KO by Thanos twice. Wanda isn't that good at fodder wrecking without using some external objects (and was busy half the time). The best fodder-wrecker on Avengers side was Giant Man, followed closely by Spider-Man, a freaking street leveler.
But it wasn't full wakandan army, only half, those who were snapped, iirc. Actually well below half since it wouldn't include the characters who died in battle, only the snapped ones.
That's a good point, I hadn't considered that actually. Although another good point to consider would be the army that Wakanda would have built up in the 5 years post-Decimation.
Was also there in IW.
It was? I don't remember, actually.
I most definitely don't remember them. It does close the gap significantly if they were present
That's the ones I could spot, there's likely more.
Yeah but there were barely any army members left after Hela's assault. In final battle of Ragnarok, we saw Asgard had mostly only vulnerable civilians left. Then half of them were killed on the ship.
Valkyrie is strong but she's not an army by herself.
There seemed to be a handful.
Plus this is five years afterwards, it's not unlikely that Valkyrie trained a new army from the remnants of Asgard's citizens.
These were very minor moments. Most of the time they were busy fighting Thanos or getting Knocked out. They killed maybe dozen outriders and at best 1-2 leviathans.
Except they weren't... Thanos was out of the fray in his entirety until Corvus pointed at Clint, while Thanos was literally shown fighting fodder at that point. He didn't fight any named character on-screen after "Avengers Assemble" until Wanda.
He took significant damage during the assault on HQ, so would be less effective in battle.
He actually looks to be in a completely different armor when he comes out. That could be just me, but he looks a LOT different:
Gallery
Strange was first busy shielding everyone then was stopping the water wave. His powers also don't suit fodder-wrecking outside BFR, atleast as of now. Adding Maw on the other side balances the presence too.
There was nothing to shield at the start of the battle... Also,
Others - Pepper, Valkyrie, Spidey, Quill and Drax, etc. If you put them in Wakanda Battle instead of Thor, what do you see? I see dead avengers, dead guardians, dead wakandans. Adding Ravagers would not even substitute for the remaining half+ of wakandan army due to sheer difference in numbers. And even if it did, lets not forget there were still many more outriders than those who swarmed the battlefueld in less than 2 minutes.
If you put them all together instead of Thor? The only thing they can't do is take out the Outrider drop ships, but the sheer numbers difference would have a bigger presence than Thor imo. Especially with Pepper and Quill's AoE. Adding Ravagers imo is better than Wakandan Army due to ranged capability and presumably tons of gear. According to the MCU Wiki (idk how reliable this is) Kraglin was also there, and he's the new bearer of Yondu's arrow. Even assuming he got snapped, he had the timeframe between the end of GOTG2 and the end of IW to practice with it. His presence would surely be insane on the battlefield.
The fodder sorecerers definitely aren't suited against large armies of fodder. IMO Wakandan shield > kamartaj army. Uncountable outriders died due to that shield, and it allowed the heroes to restrict their entry-points to the battlefield.
Tbf we've never seen the sorcerers in combat. They're supposed to be good, but I guess due to their lack of feats or any statements to their capabilities I can agree with you somewhat on this one.
Giant-Man is good, but he's matched or surpassed by the chitauri army + leviathans combined.
That's fair. However, you're looking at each hero individually. If you look at all their prowess cumulatively, they make up for each other's faults.
Maybe I'm overthinking, but honestly Thanos's army didn't feel like a threat at all in Endgame.
I can agree, but mostly due to the seemingly just as large army of the Avengers and allies.
In Infinity War before Thor's arrival - they legitimately looked dead just by getting swarmed in 1.5 minutes, with a powerful wakandan shield and being prepared to fight. In comparison, in Endgame they also have Chitauri army of A1, the giant ape cratures, some other kind of army and prepared Army against Avengers who were ambushed.
Again, I agree with all of this, but I do think the far larger army of Endgame had a lot to do with it.
They have their top 3 fodder wreckers locked against Thanos for 95% of their fight time
They weren't... I watched the full fight scene on bootleg about 4 hours ago.
4th biggest fodder wrecker seems in bad condition minutes before the battle starts
I'm assuming War Machine?
5th biggest fodder wrecker doesn't do anything except destroy the Sanctuary 2 and get KO by Thanos twice.
She didn't even wreck fodder at all iirc.
Wanda isn't that good at fodder wrecking without using some external objects (and was busy half the time).
I can agree with this. She had like one AoE during the all-women scene, but it didn't do much.
The best fodder-wrecker on Avengers side was Giant Man, followed closely by Spider-Man, a freaking street leveler.
Based on who was supposed to be there and what they can do, ignoring what they did on-screen, they had a LOT of fodder wreckers. Iron Trio would demolish a lot of shtuff, basically two Thors (one with lightning cloak), supposedly Kraglin (who would be freaking insane), Giant-Man, Black Panther via AoEs, Spidey technically, to a much lesser extent Falcon. In no order. I do think that's enough to make up for the difference in size, especially when a lot of them can one-shot Leviathans (Scott and Pepper did it, as well as Valk by slicing through iirc). Groot would be pretty decent too, actually.
@rajjarsalt: Unlike MCU Thanos 616 Thanos isn't some fodder that struggles with lifting 0.7 tons.
OT: Thor and Black Order jobbed the most.
Go on.
Thats Thanos from Earth-57780.
Getting beat by Squirrel Girl is not much of an anti-feat since beating high tiers and low cosmics is pretty much one of her superpowers. She also officially has full power ratings, each at 7/7.
@rajjarsalt: Unlike MCU Thanos 616 Thanos isn't some fodder that struggles with lifting 0.7 tons.
OT: Thor and Black Order jobbed the most.
Go on.
Thats Thanos from Earth-57780.
Getting beat by Squirrel Girl is not much of an anti-feat since beating high tiers and low cosmics is pretty much one of her superpowers. She also officially has full power ratings, each at 7/7.
@nwname: Wait,so you don't accept Thanos's scaling with other characters ?
Because the "struggling with lifting 1500 pounds " part has been considered PIS for ages now . And it would make far more sense if it is .
Because , Thanos legit put less effort in to overpowering Spiderman ( 30 tonner + at the time ) then he did with lifting Hulk . Heck , if he's actually that weak He would have been just barely as strong as Cap ( bicep curled a helicopter , smashed a jeep with a motorcycle throw ) and much weaker than Nebula , Gamora , Drax ( I could go on ) .
But no , he efforttlessly overpowered and pulled a way a resisting Gamora and one shotted Drax and Nebula ( He jobbed abit against Cap but that's probably PIS and even then , Thanos still appears much stronger than Cap is ) .
Also "Russos' Hulk " who. you consider to be weaker still has absolutely no problem swinging around a 2 tons car so even in the Russos' eye ,Thanos isn't nearly as weak as you made him out to be . That's not even mentioning his scaling with " real Hulk " and IW iron man . So yeah,bringing up a random low end and ignoring all other feats is not a good argument .
He showed he could fight a lot better in IW. I feel like he could've avoided being knocked out so soon but that was also due to Thor being reckless and the fact that they needed Iron Man out so Worthy Cap could shine. It makes since though because Tony would be considerably worse fighter than he was a years ago in his prime, especially if he's just been a family man during all of that time.
I still think he could've simply moved away when Thanos came towards him with the sword. I don't think he was as terrible in EG as some others say though but IW Tony could've definitely pulled off some combos. EG does give him some good repulsor and durability feats though.
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