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#1 Posted by Erkan12 (8009 posts) - - Show Bio
  • Star Wars Canon only
  • DCEU movie only
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#2 Posted by Foxdie (299 posts) - - Show Bio

Probably Superman if we're talking reaction speed probably the Force users. Canonically Sidious still reacts at light speed, and Obi Wan Sub light speed.

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#3 Posted by Erkan12 (8009 posts) - - Show Bio

@foxdie said:

Probably Superman if we're talking reaction speed probably the Force users. Canonically Sidious still reacts at light speed,and Obi Wan Sub light speed.

I don't think it's canon, which source?

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#4 Edited by Kilius (1164 posts) - - Show Bio

Reacting and moving are two completely different things.

No Force user, not even Sidious, and Yoda can move remotely close to light speed. If they could they would have absolutely no need for any vehicle transport; they could travel anywhere they want on a planet in, for hundreds and thousands of miles in less than a second.

Maul isn't Sidious but he's an incredibly powerful Force user in his own right, here's his speed against non-Force sensitives:

Loading Video...

If Sidious can move at lightspeed, then Maul his apprentice should at least be hypersonic, but he can't one-shot or even blitz a non-Force sensitive; though she is exceptional, it goes without saying non-Force sensitives can't go close to even hypersonic, let alone light speed.

And before anyone accuses me of Canon to Legends comparisons this is Legends:

"Maul was irritated by the Togorians' tendency to taunt before striking. He was also eager to leave the freighter, as he expected the other pirates to start the engines at any moment. He whirled in an arc and went for the hulking Togarion's chest. Incredibly the pirate sidestepped the attack." ~ The Wrath of Darth Maul

So yeah Superman pretty much destroys in the speed department.

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#5 Edited by Erkan12 (8009 posts) - - Show Bio

@kilius: Probably it's because Maul was staggered due to the Bounty Hunter's cheap shot to his head. He was deflecting blaster shots from almost every corner.

No Caption Provided

There are also scenes for DCEU Superman who gets hits by bullets or Cyborg's blast if you want to lowball.

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#6 Posted by Foxdie (299 posts) - - Show Bio

@erkan12: Rots when Anakin watched his fight with Mace. They were moving so fast it was if they were moving in and out of existence.

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#7 Posted by Foxdie (299 posts) - - Show Bio
@kilius said:

Reacting and moving are two completely different things.

No Force user, not even Sidious, and Yoda can move remotely close to light speed. If they could they would have absolutely no need for any vehicle transport; they could travel anywhere they want on a planet in, for hundreds and thousands of miles in less than a second.

Maul isn't Sidious but he's an incredibly powerful Force user in his own right, here's his speed against non-Force sensitives:

Loading Video...

If Sidious can move at lightspeed, then Maul his apprentice should at least be hypersonic, but he can't one-shot or even blitz a non-Force sensitive; though she is exceptional, it goes without saying non-Force sensitives can't go close to even hypersonic, let alone light speed.

And before anyone accuses me of Canon to Legends comparisons this is Legends:

"Maul was irritated by the Togorians' tendency to taunt before striking. He was also eager to leave the freighter, as he expected the other pirates to start the engines at any moment. He whirled in an arc and went for the hulking Togarion's chest. Incredibly the pirate sidestepped the attack." ~ The Wrath of Darth Maul

So yeah Superman pretty much destroys in the speed department.

There was literally a lot of plot induced stupidity in that episode, to where they could reacted to a army of blaster bolts but couldn't react to people's fists. Grievous was even out dueled and taken out by a Gungan in that series. Now you're just downplaying.

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#8 Posted by Erkan12 (8009 posts) - - Show Bio

@foxdie: I don't think we can actually calculate their speed in the movie.

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#9 Posted by TheArchon (1065 posts) - - Show Bio

I’d very much like knowing where the Force users actually have light speed reaction...

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#10 Posted by Kilius (1164 posts) - - Show Bio

@foxdie:

My apologies for using the source material to disrupt your headcanon interpretation of Force users speed.

Jedi/Sith are trained to deflect blasters, it's second nature to them. Also, it's precognition not speed that enables them to deflect blasters.

Fists and unfamiliar martial arts are not something Jedi have down to muscle memory, hence the reason non-Force sensitives can throw them off. Teras Kasi is one such martial art that is specifically designed to counter Force-sensitives.

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#11 Posted by Kilius (1164 posts) - - Show Bio

@thearchon:

Any description you find is probably hyperbole seeing how Jedi have on numerous occasion failed to react to beings far below lightspeed.

Jedi are fast, but peak human speed can compete with them. OCW, TOR, and TFU exaggeration notwithstanding.

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#12 Edited by ArkhamAsylum3 (1686 posts) - - Show Bio

@kilius: Combat and reaction speed are different from movement speed and I believe there is a quote out there that says Magna Guards are FTL. However seen as this is canon and no such statements like that exist canon I'll say Superman.

I have to say though Star Wars has always been one of the most incosistant verses for speed and it really depends on the writer as to whether the characters are light speed or not.

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#13 Posted by Kilius (1164 posts) - - Show Bio

@arkhamasylum3:

Magnaguard and Grievous are different. They don't have precognition like Jedi, so they pretty much need to be that much faster to not only compete with Jedi but also be a viable threat. It's probably still hyperbole, but even if it was meant to be literal in Stovers RotS Novel, it's clear Magnaguards don't have close to lightspeed reactions in the canon, as even newly made Jedi Knight Nahber Vebb, can fodderize 5 in quick succession.

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#14 Edited by ArkhamAsylum3 (1686 posts) - - Show Bio

@kilius: I know I even noted that the Magna Guards were nowhere near as good in canon.

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#15 Posted by Kilius (1164 posts) - - Show Bio

@erkan12:

She also dodged a strike from Savage, go to 2:41

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#16 Posted by Tenguswordsman (1345 posts) - - Show Bio

Nah, Canon Force users are not that good.

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#17 Edited by Foxdie (299 posts) - - Show Bio
@kilius said:

@foxdie:

My apologies for using the source material to disrupt your headcanon interpretation of Force users speed.

Jedi/Sith are trained to deflect blasters, it's second nature to them. Also, it's precognition not speed that enables them to deflect blasters.

Fists and unfamiliar martial arts are not something Jedi have down to muscle memory, hence the reason non-Force sensitives can throw them off. Teras Kasi is one such martial art that is specifically designed to counter Force-sensitives.

OHHHHH HOOOO So now we are flinging insults? Says the same person who tried to hurry up and get someone to lock my last thread so I couldn't disprove there point. The full blown biased here in comicvine. That statement is direct source material, then you want to call it headcanon when through canon Jedi have reacted to blaster bolts time and time again? While Boba Fett and highly trained Bounty Hunters were forced to used high level equipment to keep up. Yeah bruh don't try that bs with me. Literally the flatout continuous headcanon you pulled when you couldn't shut down the Darth Bane argument even with me purposely giving you a advantage. I literally knew the direct quote to shut down the entire argument. YOU ALSO HAVE YET to send me the link to this "official Star Wars Website" where it states that Sidious lightsaber combat is at a 9. I still would like to see this credible source with directs links to it, you couldn't even disprove a character I was against with me choosing to defend him in the first place.

Also.. IF IT IS SECOND NATURE.. THEN THAT SIMPLE MEANS THEY REACT TO IT CASUALLY. THE SAME WAY A BOXER REACTS TO DODGING EXTREMELY FAST PUNCHES. That's not just precognition, there's literal canonical statements of Sith swatting characters faster then the eye can see and Jedi plus Sith have reacted to Grievous swinging a light saber who is a literal machine.

The electrodrivers that powered Grievous's limbs could move them faster than the human eye can see; when he swung his arm, it and his fist and the lightsaber within it would literally vanish: wiped from existence by sheer mind-numbing speed, an imitation quantum event. No human being could move remotely as fast as Grievous, not even Obi-Wan - but he didn't have to.

Revenge of the Sith

This is not precog.. this is fast reaction speed.

Grievous has moved so fast he has appeared to have teleported.

Grievous moved so swiftly that he seemed to teleport from the window to half a meter in front of Gunray. "How much use is your money," he said, flexing his hand of jointed duranium in the Neimoidian's face, "against this?"

―Revenge of the Sith

Grievious lightsaber spin alone has moved so fast it seemed like a solid object and Obi Wan REACTED TO IT.. not from precog but sheer skill.

Now he had four arms. And four hands. And each hand took a lightsaber as his cloak dropped to the floor.

They snarled to life and Grievous spun all four of them in a flourishing velocity so fast and so seamlessly integrated that he seemed to stand within a pulsing sphere of blue and green energy.

Revenge of the Sith

Every last one of Grievous limbs can attack 3 times in 1 second.

The electrodrivers powering Grievous's mechanical arms let each of the four attack thrice in a single second; integrated by combat algorithms in the bio-droid's electronic network of peripheral processors, each of the twelve strikes per second came from a different angle with different speed and intensity, an unpredictably broken rhythm of slashes, chops, and stabs of which every single one could take Obi-Wan's life.

Revenge of the Sith

As a matter of fact this quote right here is about to show a testament to both Obi Wan's reaction Speed and Grievous reaction speed. Grievous was slashing Obi Wan with blows as fast as 20 per second. Until Obi Wan's defenses were overloaded.. this wasn't even Obi Wan at his peak. That's a testament of reaction, not just precog you can have the precog but if you can't react to something directly IN YOUR FACE it is useless. So this alone completely destroys the "it's just precog" argument.

Grievous, snarling fury, ramped up the intensity and velocity of his attacks - sixteen per second, eighteen - until finally, at twenty strikes per second, he overloaded Obi-Wan's defense.

Revenge of the Sith

Dooku has been stated to move impossibly fast to Obi Wan.. who has reacted to lightsabers moving at 20 blows per second.

Obi-Wan understood immediately, even before he noted Anakin’s blue blade coming up and over the other way-the green blade would push the Count’s lightsaber out of the way, clearing the path for the victorious strike!

But Dooku retracted impossibly fast, and Anakin’s down-cutting green blade hit nothing but air.

Source: Attack of the Clones

He has moved his lightsaber so fast they appeared everywhere at once.

As Obi-Wan gave ground, Dooku quickened the pace. His every move was economical and elegant; his lightsaber seemed to be everywhere. Obi-Wan remembered Jocasta Nu telling him, With a lightsaber, in the old style of fencing, he had no match. Now he could see what she meant. Unfortunately.

Source: Attack of the Clones

His blades have moved faster then Obi Wan could see.

The Count smiled slightly - Obi-Wan was not sure at whom - and his blade flicked out almost too fast to see. Anakin screamed as his right arm dropped to the floor, cut off at the elbow.

Source: Attack of the Clones

Dooku has manged to combat blow for blow with a somewhat holding back Yoda

The Jedi Master Yoda confronted Dooku. The two engaged in a titanic struggle of Force powers, neither besting the other. It came down to a contest of lightsabers. In a blurring tangle of speed and light, the two masters of the Force dueled.

Source: The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

Dooku has kicked anakin faster then a pile of droid parts could hit the ground, then instantly moves faster and hits Obi Wan before he could react... you know... precog.

Kenobi reached the top of the stairs and a single slash of his lightsaber dismantled both droids. Before their pieces could even hit the floor Dooku was in motion, landing a spinning side-stamp that folded Skywalker in half; he used his last burst of dark power to continue his spin into a blindingly fast wheel-kick that brought his heel against the point of Kenobi's chin with a crack like the report of a huge-bore slugthrower, knocking the Jedi Master back down the stairs. Sounded like he'd broken his neck. Wouldn't that be lovely?

Source: Revenge of the Sith

Again stated that both Dooku and Anakin react faster then the eye could see

Skywalker leapt for him again, and this time Dooku met the boy's charge easily. They stood nearly toe-to-toe, blades flashing faster than the eye could see, but Skywalker had lost his edge: a simple taunt was all that had been required to shift the focus of his attention from winning the fight to controlling his own emotions.

Source: Revenge of the Sith

Now Anakin has moved even faster then Dooku.. see this.. This is that Abc logic I was telling you about last posts. That you uhh couldn't pick up on.

That blue blade was everywhere, flashing and whirling faster and faster until Dooku saw the room through an electric haze and now Kenobi was back in the picture: with a shout of the Force, he shot like a torpedo up the stairs behind Skywalker, and Dooku decided that under these rather extreme circumstances, it was at least arguably permissible for a gentleman to cheat.

Source: Revenge of the Sith

What is with you boys trying to take my kindness for weakness.

You the very same person who struggled to bring in direct quotes for Bane against Sidious even after I purposely gave you certain quotes to counter. Lmao Don't ever try to come at me because I kept shutting down your head canon hypocrite.

All canon feats. Lmfao you literally just tried me just now

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#18 Edited by Erkan12 (8009 posts) - - Show Bio

@kilius said:

@erkan12:

She also dodged a strike from Savage, go to 2:41

One lucky dodge, Savage blitzed multiple opponents in the canon also.

Sugi might have enhanced speed or reflexes due to her being a Zabrak.

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#19 Posted by Kilius (1164 posts) - - Show Bio

@foxdie:

Yeah, you might want to remove yourself from my followers' list while you're at it. That way we can make the breaking up of this awkward onesided relationship official.

Btw I never moved to have it locked. The mods do their jobs. It's pretty obvious in Legends canon that Sidious is vastly above Bane in every way when it comes to Force abilities, which translates to lightsaber combat.

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#20 Posted by Foxdie (299 posts) - - Show Bio

@kilius: Owned again, and trust me I will. I also find that highly doubtful that they only did it after you made your final statement. You should be able to prove those claims before locking them. The victor was obvious but the fact that you couldn't prove it speaks volumes. You guys don't give certain people the credit they deserve, but when it's the other way around try to look down on others. I know a few people that got talked down on for the same slack you pulled. Also the cussing and other things your friends get away with but someone else comments would have got deleted for has shown a distinct bias. One of the quotes that could have been used was directly from the Rots novelization and you couldn't back up your claims. These so called experts, shouldn't be called that if they can't disprove a simple one sided fight like that instantly. Amazing how you just came at me then want to get in your feelings. The unfollow has just been done, I didn't really lose anyone of importance in the first place.

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#21 Posted by Kilius (1164 posts) - - Show Bio

@foxdie:

I also find that highly doubtful that they only did it after you made your final statement.

Maybe it was my ingenus reasoning that convinced them. Either way, they acted without my incentive.

You should be able to prove those claims before locking them.

That's up to the mods, not me. If they looked at all the arguments, they would have seen your's yet they decided to lock it, despite your impeccable arguments.

The victor was obvious but the fact that you couldn't prove it speaks volumes.

I want you to look at that statement carefully. If the victor was obvious maybe there's a reason the mods locked a thread that has little discussion value, except for trolls, who don't even believe in their own cause. You wasted everyone's time making that thread. If you actually believed in the cause it would have been an interesting discussion, but people like you are some of the worst time wasters in CV history.

but the fact that you couldn't prove it speaks volumes.

Canon proves it.

You guys don't give certain people the credit they deserve, but when it's the other way around try to look down on others.

I have a bad sense of smell, a red herring isn't going to lure me.

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#22 Edited by Foxdie (299 posts) - - Show Bio

@kilius said:

@foxdie:

I also find that highly doubtful that they only did it after you made your final statement.

Maybe it was my ingenus reasoning that convinced them. Either way, they acted without my incentive.

You should be able to prove those claims before locking them.

That's up to the mods, not me. If they looked at all the arguments, they would have seen your's yet they decided to lock it, despite your impeccable arguments.

The victor was obvious but the fact that you couldn't prove it speaks volumes.

I want you to look at that statement carefully. If the victor was obvious maybe there's a reason the mods locked a thread that has little discussion value, except for trolls, who don't even believe in their own cause. You wasted everyone's time making that thread. If you actually believed in the cause it would have been an interesting discussion, but people like you are some of the worst time wasters in CV history.

but the fact that you couldn't prove it speaks volumes.

Canon proves it.

You guys don't give certain people the credit they deserve, but when it's the other way around try to look down on others.

I have a bad sense of smell, a red herring isn't going to lure me.

You couldn't prove it using any canonical source.. if canon proved it with lightsaber combat. Why couldn't you bring it up? Canon proves many things but if you can't provide it, it's useless. Your reasoning was circular.. so that didn't convince them "Maybe it was my ingenus reasoning that convinced them. Either way, they acted without my incentive." this statement also contradicts your previous statement. "That's up to the mods, not me. If they looked at all the arguments, they would have seen your's yet they decided to lock it, despite your impeccable arguments." The appeal to authority fallacy therefore there reasoning was flawless is pretty cheap claim which also isn't true if there's a bias there's a bias and you not once shut down the statement that I already knew the answer too. "I want you to look at that statement carefully. If the victor was obvious maybe there's a reason the mods locked a thread that has little discussion value, except for trolls, who don't even believe in their own cause. You wasted everyone's time making that thread. If you actually believed in the cause it would have been an interesting discussion, but people like you are some of the worst time wasters in CV history." Lmfao you have no idea what my cause was, and to be honest I actually completed it soundly, a few other people I spoke to actually understood where I was getting at and realized I proved it soundly. I guess your lack of intelligence would have you to not realize that Bane was simply bait, not in the sense of trolling but if you were smart it was in the sense of something completely different that I already explained. But it flew right over your mental faculties didn't it. Trying to play the game of intelligence and you've failed every time especially against me. Next time learn how to spell ingenious and I'm not one to call out someone's spelling but the amount of lack luster attempts at trying to insult my intelligence has allowed me to make an exception do to your impudence. Let me show you the last failure you just strolled right into while trying to play the game of false superiority. "I have a bad sense of smell, a red herring isn't going to lure me." Then why did you engage in it?

I tell you what.. you have a bad sense of smell.. but I have a good sense of it and I can tell you straight as day. To a quick with and it smells like bull shit to me.

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#23 Edited by Kilius (1164 posts) - - Show Bio

@foxdie:

Don't ever play the grammar card on the internet, it's doomed to backfire. I have the Grammarly app and it counted over 36 errors in your quotes.

Point one I guess. Whatever I have a sense of humor so I'll leave it unedited, so I can look back and laugh at silly little mistakes that make for wonderful red herring fodder.

Anyways since you basically admitted you were trolling I'll let you have the last word. I've already long since blocked you so with some luck I'll never have to see you again.

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#24 Posted by RedHeathen (1865 posts) - - Show Bio

these are just my initial thoughts. what do you guys think?

@erkan12@arkhamasylum3@kilius@foxdie@thearchon

how can magna guards move at light speed when a ship specifically needs a hyperdrive to do so? i am not arguing. it's just the first thought i had.

also, how do they, they being magna guards and force users, keep from catching fire such as when an object from space enters our atmosphere? the shuttle, which has controlled entry, on average travels at less than 17,500 mph, which is almost M25. This is extremely sub-light speed. a space shuttle has specific material used to help it not catch fire. upon reentry, there are other concerns such as generated radiation (dependent upon the body's/object's temperature), and other issues that Force users would need to deal with that is not and has never been addressed in any SW literature that i know of, which isn't saying much because i certainly haven't read everything. if you have sources to address this, then would you please share?

a shuttle reenters under controlled conditions and with gear specifically designed to help keep it from igniting or losing mass and to help it slow down. this doesn't happen with unmanned, natural objects, such as meteorites, when they fall to earth. they travel at far greater speeds than the shuttle:

Meteoroids enter the earth’s atmosphere at very high speeds, ranging from 11 km/sec to 72 km/sec (25,000 mph to 160,000 mph). However, similar to firing a bullet into water, the meteoroid will rapidly decelerate as it penetrates into increasingly denser portions of the atmosphere. This is especially true in the lower layers, since 90 % of the earth’s atmospheric mass lies below 12 km (7 miles / 39,000 ft) of height.

At the same time, the meteoroid will also rapidly lose mass due to ablation. In this process, the outer layer of the meteoroid is continuously vaporized and stripped away due to high speed collision with air molecules. Particles from dust size to a few kilograms mass are usually completely consumed in the atmosphere.

i don't know of anything in SW lore that can account for a force user being able to protect themselves from a destructive force such as light speed, much less supersonic speed. they need protection from far less harmful forces on a daily basis. also, if they could move this fast, then how can people such as cad bane canonically (tcw) elude some of the strongest users such as kenobi and vos? this is one reason why i think it is ridiculous to equate someone such as fett (either) or bane with highly trained/highly skilled jedi and sith. however, even though i don't know of anything that directly addresses those questions, in shadow hunter, maul was able to move so quickly that he could not be seen with the naked eye. this might be some of the best proof in SW that force sensitives can move at astonishingly high velocities (speed with direction). i searched for info describing what the human eye cannot see, and this was the best that i could find:

So in order for the ball to be invisible, it would need to cross 70 meters in 1/250th of a second. That’s 17500 meters every second or 38146 mph! At this point the ball would be moving way, way faster than the speed of sound, and would almost certainly have crumpled up into a little fireball before a goal was even scored.

(ignoring the comment about a little fireball, which highlights what i touched upon above) i want to compare the above number to superman, so i converted 38,146 mph to mach and got 49.716583M. i also got this: 50.112515. it seems like the formula would provide a consistent number, but now it seems as though online converters cannot be fully trusted. either way, i think we can rely on mach 50 being a rather reliable number. this was a very pre-prime maul as this mission took place before TPM. even though sidious is more powerful, etc etc etc, i dont' think he'd be that much faster. i think we can be generous and double that number, but we'll never really know for sure. i don't think it matters if we even multiple by 100 because it won't equate superman's speed.

there are various sources (all DC) that give varying speeds for superman. one answer i liked is the following. i have not double checked these numbers, so if you are up to the task, i provide the link below, which you can follow and get the sources for yourself. anyway, this is superman's speed:

i got this from a search:

Flash states that Superman is moving at over 2000 miles/sec, which is also over 120,000 miles/minute, and also 7,200,000 mph. That's Mach 9350. I believe this is that fastest that I've seen Superman move under the Earth's atmosphere. He can, however, break light speed in the vacuum of outer space.

i'm not sure how a force sensitive can move at the speed of light within such a small location. the energy created. the potential for destruction. there are several scientific factors that should hinder any person from traveling at light speed or even supersonic speeds, and i don't think "because the force" is a decent answer. for the most part, the science of star wars is similar to our own, or at least per....iirc...Daniel Wallace or David West Reynolds. and even though there is no direct statement that describes force augmented speed, that i know of, i don't think there is anything that will match any of them with superman's speed.

  • superman is not affected by fire, a star, molten rock... now compare this to the most powerful (albeit briefly) jedi or sith to have ever lived*, psv, who was not capable of withstanding the heat. he was baked like a hot potato.
  • superman was capable of reversing time in order to save the woman he loved, and he did so with speed and reversed the earth's rotation to reverse time. no one in the sw universe, canon or legends, did that, and certainly the two most powerful sith ever did not do that.

i don't know how psv can withstand radiation, but if i remember correctly, one story mentioned his suit would protect him a little while against the perils of space exposure for a little bit of time, which means that without his suit, he would negatively be affected by radiation, whereas superman is not. in some cases, superman is even strengthened by it. in his suit, psv would only have a short time of protection. hmm. that is vader in his suit, whereas it was psv who was the strongest ever (lucas), which is when i think he'd be able to achieve his highest speed. as i stated above, at certain high speeds, radiation can be generated, but i don't know if it even matters here. these are just thoughts that i'm adding.

anyway...what do you think? do we chalk it up to "the force" and assume that these guys are as fast as superman? right now i'm thinking of bane trying to get to the moon, to safety, fleeing from nadd's temple. if he could have run as fast as the speed of light, then i'd think he could have just jumped to it. taken a running leap. even at super sonic speed and the use of the force. he had to get an animal to fly him there. iirc... there are many times in the stories that such speed would have helped them, but they never use it.

______________________________

* "Fathered by the force Anakin was the most powerful Jedi/Sith to ever live...", Source Disc 2 Star Wars Episode 3 special edition, "the chosen one extended" documentary with George Lucas.

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#25 Edited by Foxdie (299 posts) - - Show Bio

@kilius said:

@foxdie:

Don't ever play the grammar card on the internet, it's doomed to backfire. I have the Grammarly app and it counted over 36 errors in your quotes.

Anyways since you basically admitted you were trolling I'll let you have the last word. I've already long since blocked you so with some luck I'll never have to see you again.

So apparently you can't read and you literally proved my point all at the same time. Here's a screenshot just in case your misunderstood while you were trying to fall back on the grammar part of things. When grammarly would also list the statements you quoted as a grammatical error.

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

Lol you been unfollowed you're acting like you were someone of importance to me. Dropping you was as simple as dropping paper in a trash can.

"with some luck I'll never have to see you again." Nahh what you mean is "with some luck i'll never have to get BODIED again"

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#26 Posted by Kilius (1164 posts) - - Show Bio

@redheathen:

how can magna guards move at light speed when a ship specifically needs a hyperdrive to do so? i am not arguing. it's just the first thought i had.

Magnaguards are stated to have near lightspeed 'reflexes' not speed. The two are distinct. Anyway's it's probably hyperbole, as Jedi can't move or even react to anything close to lightspeed.

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#27 Posted by RedHeathen (1865 posts) - - Show Bio

@kilius said:

@redheathen:

how can magna guards move at light speed when a ship specifically needs a hyperdrive to do so? i am not arguing. it's just the first thought i had.

Magnaguards are stated to have near lightspeed 'reflexes' not speed. The two are distinct. Anyway's it's probably hyperbole, as Jedi can't move or even react to anything close to lightspeed.

would you please provide the source about the magna guards? i'm not saying it doesn't exist. i'd like to add it to my bookmarks, if you don't mind, or if you have it handy. if not, it's okay. =) i'm just being a nerd.

i'm thinking that if their reflexes are this fast, then their processing ability is that fast. ....however, wouldn't reflexes indicate movement? again, i'm not arguing. i'm just thinking about it.

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#28 Edited by Foxdie (299 posts) - - Show Bio

@redheathen said:

these are just my initial thoughts. what do you guys think?

@erkan12@arkhamasylum3@kilius@foxdie@thearchon

how can magna guards move at light speed when a ship specifically needs a hyperdrive to do so? i am not arguing. it's just the first thought i had.

also, how do they, they being magna guards and force users, keep from catching fire such as when an object from space enters our atmosphere? the shuttle, which has controlled entry, on average travels at less than 17,500 mph, which is almost M25. This is extremely sub-light speed. a space shuttle has specific material used to help it not catch fire. upon reentry, there are other concerns such as generated radiation (dependent upon the body's/object's temperature), and other issues that Force users would need to deal with that is not and has never been addressed in any SW literature that i know of, which isn't saying much because i certainly haven't read everything. if you have sources to address this, then would you please share?

a shuttle reenters under controlled conditions and with gear specifically designed to help keep it from igniting or losing mass and to help it slow down. this doesn't happen with unmanned, natural objects, such as meteorites, when they fall to earth. they travel at far greater speeds than the shuttle:

Meteoroids enter the earth’s atmosphere at very high speeds, ranging from 11 km/sec to 72 km/sec (25,000 mph to 160,000 mph). However, similar to firing a bullet into water, the meteoroid will rapidly decelerate as it penetrates into increasingly denser portions of the atmosphere. This is especially true in the lower layers, since 90 % of the earth’s atmospheric mass lies below 12 km (7 miles / 39,000 ft) of height.

At the same time, the meteoroid will also rapidly lose mass due to ablation. In this process, the outer layer of the meteoroid is continuously vaporized and stripped away due to high speed collision with air molecules. Particles from dust size to a few kilograms mass are usually completely consumed in the atmosphere.

i don't know of anything in SW lore that can account for a force user being able to protect themselves from a destructive force such as light speed, much less supersonic speed. they need protection from far less harmful forces on a daily basis. also, if they could move this fast, then how can people such as cad bane canonically (tcw) elude some of the strongest users such as kenobi and vos? this is one reason why i think it is ridiculous to equate someone such as fett (either) or bane with highly trained/highly skilled jedi and sith. however, even though i don't know of anything that directly addresses those questions, in shadow hunter, maul was able to move so quickly that he could not be seen with the naked eye. this might be some of the best proof in SW that force sensitives can move at astonishingly high velocities (speed with direction). i searched for info describing what the human eye cannot see, and this was the best that i could find:

So in order for the ball to be invisible, it would need to cross 70 meters in 1/250th of a second. That’s 17500 meters every second or 38146 mph! At this point the ball would be moving way, way faster than the speed of sound, and would almost certainly have crumpled up into a little fireball before a goal was even scored.

(ignoring the comment about a little fireball, which highlights what i touched upon above) i want to compare the above number to superman, so i converted 38,146 mph to mach and got 49.716583M. i also got this: 50.112515. it seems like the formula would provide a consistent number, but now it seems as though online converters cannot be fully trusted. either way, i think we can rely on mach 50 being a rather reliable number. this was a very pre-prime maul as this mission took place before TPM. even though sidious is more powerful, etc etc etc, i dont' think he'd be that much faster. i think we can be generous and double that number, but we'll never really know for sure. i don't think it matters if we even multiple by 100 because it won't equate superman's speed.

there are various sources (all DC) that give varying speeds for superman. one answer i liked is the following. i have not double checked these numbers, so if you are up to the task, i provide the link below, which you can follow and get the sources for yourself. anyway, this is superman's speed:

i got this from a search:

Flash states that Superman is moving at over 2000 miles/sec, which is also over 120,000 miles/minute, and also 7,200,000 mph. That's Mach 9350. I believe this is that fastest that I've seen Superman move under the Earth's atmosphere. He can, however, break light speed in the vacuum of outer space.

i'm not sure how a force sensitive can move at the speed of light within such a small location. the energy created. the potential for destruction. there are several scientific factors that should hinder any person from traveling at light speed or even supersonic speeds, and i don't think "because the force" is a decent answer. for the most part, the science of star wars is similar to our own, or at least per....iirc...Daniel Wallace or David West Reynolds. and even though there is no direct statement that describes force augmented speed, that i know of, i don't think there is anything that will match any of them with superman's speed.

  • superman is not affected by fire, a star, molten rock... now compare this to the most powerful (albeit briefly) jedi or sith to have ever lived*, psv, who was not capable of withstanding the heat. he was baked like a hot potato.
  • superman was capable of reversing time in order to save the woman he loved, and he did so with speed and reversed the earth's rotation to reverse time. no one in the sw universe, canon or legends, did that, and certainly the two most powerful sith ever did not do that.

i don't know how psv can withstand radiation, but if i remember correctly, one story mentioned his suit would protect him a little while against the perils of space exposure for a little bit of time, which means that without his suit, he would negatively be affected by radiation, whereas superman is not. in some cases, superman is even strengthened by it. in his suit, psv would only have a short time of protection. hmm. that is vader in his suit, whereas it was psv who was the strongest ever (lucas), which is when i think he'd be able to achieve his highest speed. as i stated above, at certain high speeds, radiation can be generated, but i don't know if it even matters here. these are just thoughts that i'm adding.

anyway...what do you think? do we chalk it up to "the force" and assume that these guys are as fast as superman? right now i'm thinking of bane trying to get to the moon, to safety, fleeing from nadd's temple. if he could have run as fast as the speed of light, then i'd think he could have just jumped to it. taken a running leap. even at super sonic speed and the use of the force. he had to get an animal to fly him there. iirc... there are many times in the stories that such speed would have helped them, but they never use it.

______________________________

* "Fathered by the force Anakin was the most powerful Jedi/Sith to ever live...", Source Disc 2 Star Wars Episode 3 special edition, "the chosen one extended" documentary with George Lucas.

Okay so I'm going to help you out with a direct quote from a CANON novel.

@erkan12 said:
@foxdie said:

Probably Superman if we're talking reaction speed probably the Force users. Canonically Sidious still reacts at light speed,and Obi Wan Sub light speed.

I don't think it's canon, which source?

Going to help you out to aswell.

@kilius said:

Reacting and moving are two completely different things.

No Force user, not even Sidious, and Yoda can move remotely close to light speed. If they could they would have absolutely no need for any vehicle transport; they could travel anywhere they want on a planet in, for hundreds and thousands of miles in less than a second.

Maul isn't Sidious but he's an incredibly powerful Force user in his own right, here's his speed against non-Force sensitives:

Loading Video...

If Sidious can move at lightspeed, then Maul his apprentice should at least be hypersonic, but he can't one-shot or even blitz a non-Force sensitive; though she is exceptional, it goes without saying non-Force sensitives can't go close to even hypersonic, let alone light speed.

And before anyone accuses me of Canon to Legends comparisons this is Legends:

"Maul was irritated by the Togorians' tendency to taunt before striking. He was also eager to leave the freighter, as he expected the other pirates to start the engines at any moment. He whirled in an arc and went for the hulking Togarion's chest. Incredibly the pirate sidestepped the attack." ~ The Wrath of Darth Maul

So yeah Superman pretty much destroys in the speed department.

While completely destroying her claims where she tried to purposely use a Strawman when I clearly stated reaction feat like she was arguing against movement speed just to again use a video based on reaction speed. So let me explain it to both of y'all with a Simple quote from the CANON revenge of the Sith Novel. THAT ALSO COULD HAVE BEEN USED! TO DESTROY THE DARTH BANE ARGUMENT That shouldn't couldn't pull up so she had to try to rig the moderation's into locking a thread. About to bring there double standard empire to the ground.

Anakin blinked and rubbed his eyes again. Maybe he was still a bit flash-blind—the Korun Master seemed to be fading in and out of existence, half swallowed by a thickening black haze in which danced a meter-long bar of sunfire. Mace pressed back the darkness with a relentless straight-ahead march; his own blade, that distinctive amethyst blaze that had been the final sight of so many evil beings across the galaxy, made a haze of its own: an oblate sphere of purple fire within which there seemed to be dozens of swords slashing in all directions at once.

Their blades flared and flashed, crashing together with bursts of fire, weaving nets of killing energy in exchanges so fast that Anakin could not truly see them—but he could feel them in the Force. The Force itself roiled and burst and crashed around them, boiling with power and lightspeed ricochets of lethal intent. And it was darkening.

Anakin could feel how the Force fed upon the shadow's murderous exaltation; he could feel fury spray into the Force though some poisonous abscess had crested in both their hearts.

Source: Revenge of the Sith

Mace and Sidious both moving at lightspeed. So fast that they were literally fading in and out of existence by the canon novel RoTS

Stop listening to this fake Starwars expert.

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#29 Posted by Kilius (1164 posts) - - Show Bio

@kilius said:

@redheathen:

how can magna guards move at light speed when a ship specifically needs a hyperdrive to do so? i am not arguing. it's just the first thought i had.

Magnaguards are stated to have near lightspeed 'reflexes' not speed. The two are distinct. Anyway's it's probably hyperbole, as Jedi can't move or even react to anything close to lightspeed.

would you please provide the source about the magna guards? i'm not saying it doesn't exist. i'd like to add it to my bookmarks, if you don't mind, or if you have it handy. if not, it's okay. =) i'm just being a nerd.

i'm thinking that if their reflexes are this fast, then their processing ability is that fast. ....however, wouldn't reflexes indicate movement? again, i'm not arguing. i'm just thinking about it.

Three MagnaGuards, each with a double-ended weapon that generated an energy field impervious to lightsabers, each with reflexes that operated near lightspeed,

Source: Revenge of the Sith novel

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#30 Posted by RedHeathen (1865 posts) - - Show Bio

Go to the first video in the OP of Superman. Set the speed to the slowest setting, .25, and then go to 3:12. SM takes one step and is immediately in front of WW. This is a speed I think Force-users can use without a problem, but I'm pointing it out just because it's cool.

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#31 Edited by Kilius (1164 posts) - - Show Bio

@redheathen:

Heathen I'm warning you ahead of time Foxdie has admitted to making arguments to causes he/she doesn't believe in. The user wasted everyone's time with the Darth Bane vs Sidious in sabers only thread. If you are looking for an honest thoughtful discussion I suggest you look elsewhere.

The user has zero credibility.

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#32 Edited by Green_Tea (10091 posts) - - Show Bio

Someone give me feats of DCEU Superman fighting someone as fast as Sidious and evading his attacks.

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#33 Posted by Kilius (1164 posts) - - Show Bio

@green_tea:

Flash is faster than Sidious could possibly imagine. Superman contending with his speed should more than suffice.

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#35 Edited by Foxdie (299 posts) - - Show Bio

@foxdie said:
@kilius said:

Reacting and moving are two completely different things.

No Force user, not even Sidious, and Yoda can move remotely close to light speed. If they could they would have absolutely no need for any vehicle transport; they could travel anywhere they want on a planet in, for hundreds and thousands of miles in less than a second.

Maul isn't Sidious but he's an incredibly powerful Force user in his own right, here's his speed against non-Force sensitives:

Loading Video...

If Sidious can move at lightspeed, then Maul his apprentice should at least be hypersonic, but he can't one-shot or even blitz a non-Force sensitive; though she is exceptional, it goes without saying non-Force sensitives can't go close to even hypersonic, let alone light speed.

And before anyone accuses me of Canon to Legends comparisons this is Legends:

"Maul was irritated by the Togorians' tendency to taunt before striking. He was also eager to leave the freighter, as he expected the other pirates to start the engines at any moment. He whirled in an arc and went for the hulking Togarion's chest. Incredibly the pirate sidestepped the attack." ~ The Wrath of Darth Maul

So yeah Superman pretty much destroys in the speed department.

There was literally a lot of plot induced stupidity in that episode, to where they could reacted to a army of blaster bolts but couldn't react to people's fists. Grievous was even out dueled and taken out by a Gungan in that series. Now you're just downplaying.

So sense you are talking about headcanon and how you tried to literally trash Maul. Lets go ahead and mention Mauls feats.

Maul has literally cut a guy into pieces a thousand times while escaping an explosion.

My rage is a torrent, a burning river. I leap, twist, keeping my weight on my good leg. My lightsaber is part of my body now, merciless, hard, cruel. I dance around him, slicing his arms, chest, shoulders. I want a thousand cuts to kill him. He falls facedown without a cry.

I leap over his body and up the ramp. My leg wound screams in protest but I do not limp. I steel myself against the pain, disciplining my mind against it. I won't attend to it until I am safely away from this ship and have landed on Tatooine.

Then I hear the warm-up of the preliminary ignition of the freighter. I start my engines and activate departure procedures. A warning light tells me that the hatch will not close.

Episode I Journal: Darth Maul

Maul has literally caught 4 arrows while reacting AS FAST AS LIGHTNING!

The Bartokks scurried across the corridor and jammed twin-bolt crossbows down through the floor's open slots. They aimed their weapons at Maul and fired. Four poison-tipped, armor-piercing arrows sped toward the Sith Lord.Maul's hands moved like lightning as he plucked each arrow from the air and flung them back at the assassins. The arrows shot up through the grated floor and struck the two snipers. Their arms reflexively reached to remove the arrows, but the poison worked rapidly. Now there were four Bartokks lying on the corridor floor above Darth Maul.

Episode I Adventures: The Fury of Darth Maul

Oh yeah I also noticed you still failed to send me that "official Starwars website" where it claims Sidious lightsaber skills is a 9. Noticed you still haven't provided that and outright dodged it completely.

But I will carry on. Maul had slashed 2 Droids so fast that no one seen it.

Anger rises in me, which is good. The darkness crests and roars. I twist in the air, my lightsaber twirling, revolving. Its balance is perfect in my hand. I strike one hard blow to the left flank of the droid. I feel the power of the move reverberate all the way to my shoulder. It gratifies me. The other blow to the right follows a fraction of an instant later, so close that an observer would not be able to tell which blow came first.

Episode I Journal: Darth Maul

Maul directly stated he could take down 5 humanoids in a FLICKER of an eyelash. He's also backed this up with his feats from above.

The Raiders shake their gaderffii and begin to surround me. There are just too many of them. I can take out four or five in the flicker of an eyelash, but that will just infuriate the rest. Frustration boils inside me. These interruptions deflect me from my mission.

Episode I Journal: Darth Maul

When Maul was only training he managed to react faster then a droid that could move almost faster then one could see

Rapier lunged at full extension, its metal knee joint bent almost to the floor. The needle point flickered toward Maul's heart, almost too fast to see.

The dark side blossomed in Darth Maul, the power of it resonating in him like black lightning, augmenting his years of training, guiding his reactions. Time seemed to slow, to stretch.

Darth Maul Shadow Hunter

Maul moved faster then a droid could see, a data analysin computer meant for combat.

Maul delivered a sharp kick to the droid's spherical underside. The droid soared toward the ceiling but regained control before impact and flew back toward the Sith. Maul leaped aside, moving faster than the droid's photoreceptor could follow. The droid raced past him and smashed hard against the cell wall.

Darth Maul Shadow Hunter

Going to explain why this is very impressive. A droid I-5 meant for NON COMBAT PURPOSES explained how it was faster and could see how fast a padawan moved.

I-Five kept talking, his voice maddeningly even. "Even my reactions are no match for the Sith's-and I am far faster than you and Padawan Assant. She is doing for us what her Master did for her-buying time."

Lorn spun about and pointed the blaster at I-Five. "Get over there and open that door," he said, in a voice that did not sound remotely like his own, "or I'll blow you to scrap metal."

I-Five turned his head and looked at him for a moment. Then the droid reached out and grabbed the blaster, taking it away from Lorn before the latter had time to pull the trigger.

- Taken from Darth Maul: Shadow Hunter

That same padawan reacted as fast as lightning at her peak.

It was true. Every action she took was committed and well defined, but there was no emotion, no conscious thought preceding it. The Force guided her, helped her make the lightning-fast movements necessary to deflect the Sith, and even to counterattack.

- Taken from Darth Maul: Shadow Hunter

Darth Maul has moved so fast they had to slow down a recording.

When he was satisfied that he had committed the results of his reconnaissance to memory, he shrugged out of his cloak and leapt straight up over the fence, landing precisely where some of the rocks he had tossed rested. Then he sprang to a series of other sites that ultimately carried him to the wall of the principal building, moving with such speed the entire time that whatever holorecordings were being made wouldn't show him unless they were played in slow motion.

Episode I Adventures: The Fury of Darth Maul

Maul has performed similar lightsaber speed feats as grievious while spinning a lightsaber. Where he spun it so fast they seemed to have formed a solid shield.

But they did not prevent her from deflecting his strikes as he again moved within range, his twin blades spinning so fast they seemed to merge into a crimson shield.

Darth Maul Shadow Hunter

Maul dodged a train going 100kmh at point blank range after he just landed on his feet.

He landed lightly. The entire tunnel was shaking as with the roar of some titanic beast. Maul looked up to see a driverless freight transport bearing down on him at better than one hundred kilometers an hour. Anyone else, even a trained athlete raised in a heavier gravity field, would have been crushed to paste. But Maul seized the Force, let it whip him up and to the side as if he were attached to a giant elastic band. The metal behemoth missed him by millimeters.

Darth Maul Shadow Hunter

Maul has ran 5x faster then a human could travel.

But there was an even quicker way to overtake them. He called upon the Force, moving easily five times faster than a human could travel at a dead run. There was no way they could escape him now.

Darth Maul Shadow Hunter

Maul at only the age of 15 has managed to dodge an army of blaster bolts WITHOUT USING THE FORCE and WITHOUT BEING TOUCHED.

He was preparing to make a break for the nearest hatchway when Mother Talzin called to him.“Don’t leave us, Maul!”He turned to see that she was on her feet, supported by one of the Nightsisters while the other was covering them.“Maul!” Talzin repeated. Confliction paralyzed him. Would his Master expect him to show sympathy? Even if the test had gone awry, Talzin might still be one of Sidious’ agents, and thus deserving of his help. Did the dark side of the Force ever permit self-sacrifice? Cursing through his gritted teeth, he put his right arm through the bow and hooked it over his shoulder, then ran through a hail of blaster bolts to reach Talzin. Heaving her over his shoulder, he raced for the safety of the adjacent bay, the two Nightsisters steps behind.

Restraint

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#36 Posted by Foxdie (299 posts) - - Show Bio

Go to the first video in the OP of Superman. Set the speed to the slowest setting, .25, and then go to 3:12. SM takes one step and is immediately in front of WW. This is a speed I think Force-users can use without a problem, but I'm pointing it out just because it's cool.

lol that is a pretty cool feat though. I liked how you used the time stamp to gauge that aswell, nice touch.

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#37 Posted by WollfMyth209 (15117 posts) - - Show Bio

Canon only? Superman is faster than Force users, yeah.

EU, tho, is another story.

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#38 Posted by Foxdie (299 posts) - - Show Bio

@kilius said:

@green_tea:

Flash is faster than Sidious could possibly imagine. Superman contending with his speed should more than suffice.

That's movie flash who isn't lightspeed, and movie Superman does not compete with movie Flash in speed.

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#39 Posted by RedHeathen (1865 posts) - - Show Bio

@foxdie said:

While completely destroying her claims where she tried to purposely use a Strawman when I clearly stated reaction feat like she was arguing against movement speed just to again use a video based on reaction speed. So let me explain it to both of y'all with a Simple quote from the CANON revenge of the Sith Novel. THAT ALSO COULD HAVE BEEN USED! TO DESTROY THE DARTH BANE ARGUMENT That shouldn't couldn't pull up so she had to try to rig the moderation's into locking a thread. About to bring there double standard empire to the ground.

Anakin blinked and rubbed his eyes again. Maybe he was still a bit flash-blind—the Korun Master seemed to be fading in and out of existence, half swallowed by a thickening black haze in which danced a meter-long bar of sunfire. Mace pressed back the darkness with a relentless straight-ahead march; his own blade, that distinctive amethyst blaze that had been the final sight of so many evil beings across the galaxy, made a haze of its own: an oblate sphere of purple fire within which there seemed to be dozens of swords slashing in all directions at once.

Their blades flared and flashed, crashing together with bursts of fire, weaving nets of killing energy in exchanges so fast that Anakin could not truly see them—but he could feel them in the Force. The Force itself roiled and burst and crashed around them, boiling with power and lightspeed ricochets of lethal intent. And it was darkening.

Anakin could feel how the Force fed upon the shadow's murderous exaltation; he could feel fury spray into the Force though some poisonous abscess had crested in both their hearts.

th

Mace and Sidious both moving at lightspeed. So fast that they were literally fading in and out of existence by the canon novel RoTS

Stop listening to this fake Starwars expert.

First - What thread are you talking about that got locked?

Second - Who is a fake SW expert?

Third - I addressed what speeds could be considered at moving faster than the eye can see. It doesn't need to be anywhere near LS. Also, what I did not add was proximity and size, which are both important, but won't really affect what we're discussing here.

Fourth - A ricochet is not indicative of a Force user being FTL.

@green_tea said:

Someone give me feats of DCEU Superman fighting someone as fast as Sidious and evading his attacks.

Give me reliable information on how fast sidious is, and then we'll see if we can answer this question.

@kilius said:
@redheathen said:
@kilius said:

@redheathen:

how can magna guards move at light speed when a ship specifically needs a hyperdrive to do so? i am not arguing. it's just the first thought i had.

Magnaguards are stated to have near lightspeed 'reflexes' not speed. The two are distinct. Anyway's it's probably hyperbole, as Jedi can't move or even react to anything close to lightspeed.

would you please provide the source about the magna guards? i'm not saying it doesn't exist. i'd like to add it to my bookmarks, if you don't mind, or if you have it handy. if not, it's okay. =) i'm just being a nerd.

i'm thinking that if their reflexes are this fast, then their processing ability is that fast. ....however, wouldn't reflexes indicate movement? again, i'm not arguing. i'm just thinking about it.

Three MagnaGuards, each with a double-ended weapon that generated an energy field impervious to lightsabers, each with reflexes that operated near lightspeed,

Source: Revenge of the Sith novel

LOL I've read that book more than once, and I know I've read that specific passage several times. Now I see the wording, and it's once again familiar. Duuuuh. Thanks for your patience and your help. This does throw a little wrench into my understanding of things so far. Now I'm thinking that the SW universe does have a heavy dose of "it's the Force". There is no explanation for droids to be this fast, much less for a sentient-organic to be fast enough to react to LS reflexes.

At this point I throw everything in the air and ask:

No Caption Provided

Why not have a Force user be as fast as Superman?

Loading Video...

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#40 Posted by Kilius (1164 posts) - - Show Bio

@foxdie:

Maul has literally cut a guy into pieces a thousand times while escaping an explosion.

My rage is a torrent, a burning river. I leap, twist, keeping my weight on my good leg. My lightsaber is part of my body now, merciless, hard, cruel. I dance around him, slicing his arms, chest, shoulders. I want a thousand cuts to kill him. He falls facedown without a cry.

I leap over his body and up the ramp. My leg wound screams in protest but I do not limp. I steel myself against the pain, disciplining my mind against it. I won't attend to it until I am safely away from this ship and have landed on Tatooine.

Then I hear the warm-up of the preliminary ignition of the freighter. I start my engines and activate departure procedures. A warning light tells me that the hatch will not close.

Want =/= actually doing. It's hyperbole. Watson is actually a much more conservative writer when it comes to Jedi/Sith power scales.

Maul has literally caught 4 arrows while reacting AS FAST AS LIGHTNING!

His hands moved like lightning. It just means he has quick reflexes. It's obviously not to be taken literally. This figurative writing is used in literature all the time. "Moved like a rocket" "Fast as a bunny" "Like a bullet in the air". Most of what I pulled came from children's books describing kindergartners.

As to "moving faster than the eye can see", you don't even need to be hypersonic to perform that. Peak human speed can easily replicate that.

Also let me show you something from Shadow Hunter, the same book where most of Maul's impressive speed feats come from:

"He extinguished his lightsaber, hung it on his belt, and bent to pick up the holocron. Before his fingers touched it, however, he sensed that he was not alone.

“Don’t move!” came a voice from the door even as he realized this. “You so much as breathe deep and I’ll fry you where you stand!”

Maul glanced at the doorway. A tall human female in shell spider silk armor stood there, aiming a pair of blasters at him.

Maul realized that this was the same being he had sensed following him earlier. His lips switched in annoyance. He tried a quick mental probe, but the bounty hunter – for surely that was what she was – was too sharp, her attention too focused, to fall for mind tricks.

Maul considered his options. He would never reach his lightsaber fast enough, even as quick as he was. He might be able to dodge a single blast, maybe even two, but hemmed in as he was in this small cubicle against a woman who could likely put a dozen bolts into the air from two semiautomatic blasters in half a second, he would have to have a distraction." ~ Shadow Hunter

The same book that has "faster than a droid who can react to things faster than a padawan".

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#42 Edited by Foxdie (299 posts) - - Show Bio

@redheathen said:
@foxdie said:

While completely destroying her claims where she tried to purposely use a Strawman when I clearly stated reaction feat like she was arguing against movement speed just to again use a video based on reaction speed. So let me explain it to both of y'all with a Simple quote from the CANON revenge of the Sith Novel. THAT ALSO COULD HAVE BEEN USED! TO DESTROY THE DARTH BANE ARGUMENT That shouldn't couldn't pull up so she had to try to rig the moderation's into locking a thread. About to bring there double standard empire to the ground.

Anakin blinked and rubbed his eyes again. Maybe he was still a bit flash-blind—the Korun Master seemed to be fading in and out of existence, half swallowed by a thickening black haze in which danced a meter-long bar of sunfire. Mace pressed back the darkness with a relentless straight-ahead march; his own blade, that distinctive amethyst blaze that had been the final sight of so many evil beings across the galaxy, made a haze of its own: an oblate sphere of purple fire within which there seemed to be dozens of swords slashing in all directions at once.

Their blades flared and flashed, crashing together with bursts of fire, weaving nets of killing energy in exchanges so fast that Anakin could not truly see them—but he could feel them in the Force. The Force itself roiled and burst and crashed around them, boiling with power and lightspeed ricochets of lethal intent. And it was darkening.

Anakin could feel how the Force fed upon the shadow's murderous exaltation; he could feel fury spray into the Force though some poisonous abscess had crested in both their hearts.

th

Mace and Sidious both moving at lightspeed. So fast that they were literally fading in and out of existence by the canon novel RoTS

Stop listening to this fake Starwars expert.

First - What thread are you talking about that got locked?

Second - Who is a fake SW expert?

Third - I addressed what speeds could be considered at moving faster than the eye can see. It doesn't need to be anywhere near LS. Also, what I did not add was proximity and size, which are both important, but won't really affect what we're discussing here.

Fourth - A ricochet is not indicative of a Force user being FTL.

@green_tea said:

Someone give me feats of DCEU Superman fighting someone as fast as Sidious and evading his attacks.

Give me reliable information on how fast sidious is, and then we'll see if we can answer this question.

@kilius said:
@redheathen said:
@kilius said:

@redheathen:

how can magna guards move at light speed when a ship specifically needs a hyperdrive to do so? i am not arguing. it's just the first thought i had.

Magnaguards are stated to have near lightspeed 'reflexes' not speed. The two are distinct. Anyway's it's probably hyperbole, as Jedi can't move or even react to anything close to lightspeed.

would you please provide the source about the magna guards? i'm not saying it doesn't exist. i'd like to add it to my bookmarks, if you don't mind, or if you have it handy. if not, it's okay. =) i'm just being a nerd.

i'm thinking that if their reflexes are this fast, then their processing ability is that fast. ....however, wouldn't reflexes indicate movement? again, i'm not arguing. i'm just thinking about it.

Three MagnaGuards, each with a double-ended weapon that generated an energy field impervious to lightsabers, each with reflexes that operated near lightspeed,

Source: Revenge of the Sith novel

LOL I've read that book more than once, and I know I've read that specific passage several times. Now I see the wording, and it's once again familiar. Duuuuh. Thanks for your patience and your help. This does throw a little wrench into my understanding of things so far. Now I'm thinking that the SW universe does have a heavy dose of "it's the Force". There is no explanation for droids to be this fast, much less for a sentient-organic to be fast enough to react to LS reflexes.

At this point I throw everything in the air and ask:

No Caption Provided

Why not have a Force user be as fast as Superman?

Loading Video...

LMFAO It would be hilarious.. I know Legends Luke has pulled off some Comic Superman feats though and I was honestly looking out for you not coming at you and some of the things said wasn't directed at you. The person who I was referring to knows exactly what I'm talking about.

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#43 Posted by Kilius (1164 posts) - - Show Bio

@redheathen:

First - What thread are you talking about that got locked?

This one:

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/battles-7/darth-bane-vs-darth-sidious-lightsabers-only-1984618/

The worst thing is that Foxdie basically admitted it was a bait thread. He/she didn't even believe in the cause. Now the user is complaining that such an obvious mismatch got locked because the mods don't allow for that sort of bullshit.

Second - Who is a fake SW expert?

Me even though I never claimed to be one.

Debate the user if you want but don't expect sincerity. Foxdie is one of the least credible users I've ever debated. You don't seem to be the one for confrontations so I'm warning you ahead of time. If you are looking for genuine thoughtful discussion don't waste your time with Foxdie.

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#44 Edited by Foxdie (299 posts) - - Show Bio

@kilius said:

@foxdie:

Maul has literally cut a guy into pieces a thousand times while escaping an explosion.

My rage is a torrent, a burning river. I leap, twist, keeping my weight on my good leg. My lightsaber is part of my body now, merciless, hard, cruel. I dance around him, slicing his arms, chest, shoulders. I want a thousand cuts to kill him. He falls facedown without a cry.

I leap over his body and up the ramp. My leg wound screams in protest but I do not limp. I steel myself against the pain, disciplining my mind against it. I won't attend to it until I am safely away from this ship and have landed on Tatooine.

Then I hear the warm-up of the preliminary ignition of the freighter. I start my engines and activate departure procedures. A warning light tells me that the hatch will not close.

Want =/= actually doing. It's hyperbole. Watson is actually a much more conservative writer when it comes to Jedi/Sith power scales.

Maul has literally caught 4 arrows while reacting AS FAST AS LIGHTNING!

His hands moved like lightning. It just means he has quick reflexes. It's obviously not to be taken literally. This figurative writing is used in literature all the time. "Moved like a rocket" "Fast as a bunny" "Like a bullet in the air". Most of what I pulled came from children's books describing kindergartners.

As to "moving faster than the eye can see", you don't even need to be hypersonic to perform that. Peak human speed can easily replicate that.

Also let me show you something from Shadow Hunter, the same book where most of Maul's impressive speed feats come from:

"He extinguished his lightsaber, hung it on his belt, and bent to pick up the holocron. Before his fingers touched it, however, he sensed that he was not alone.

“Don’t move!” came a voice from the door even as he realized this. “You so much as breathe deep and I’ll fry you where you stand!”

Maul glanced at the doorway. A tall human female in shell spider silk armor stood there, aiming a pair of blasters at him.

Maul realized that this was the same being he had sensed following him earlier. His lips switched in annoyance. He tried a quick mental probe, but the bounty hunter – for surely that was what she was – was too sharp, her attention too focused, to fall for mind tricks.

Maul considered his options. He would never reach his lightsaber fast enough, even as quick as he was. He might be able to dodge a single blast, maybe even two, but hemmed in as he was in this small cubicle against a woman who could likely put a dozen bolts into the air fromtwo semiautomatic blasters in half a second, he would have to have a distraction." ~ Shadow Hunter

The same book that has "faster than a droid who can react to things faster than a padawan".

So out of the many other different feats and you nitpick which is eliminating practicality.. so let me just destroy your claim real quick. "The same book that has "faster than a droid who can react to things faster than a padawan" That padawan... was at their VERY PEAK when they performed that. Maul performed it effortlessly.. thats 1. 2. In that scenario it was a small cubicle and do to the ABUNDANCE AMOUNT OF EVIDENCE THAT SHOWS THE OPPOSITE while you nitpick that 1 statement.. he still acknowledged that he could dodge 2 blaster bolts from a SEMI AUTOMATIC at point blank range within a SMALL CUBICLE. Which further destroys your own credibility. Not to mentioned I listed events from multiple sources not just one so you tried the Cognitive Dissonance, Slothful Induction, make Unrepresented Samples and the Fallacy of Exclusion game while using insignificant evidence but you failed.

Oh I'm sorry.. let me correct that 2 SEMI AUTOMATICS!

My rage is a torrent, a burning river. I leap, twist, keeping my weight on my good leg. My lightsaber is part of my body now, merciless, hard, cruel. I dance around him, slicing his arms, chest, shoulders. I want a thousand cuts to kill him. He falls facedown without a cry.

I leap over his body and up the ramp. My leg wound screams in protest but I do not limp. I steel myself against the pain, disciplining my mind against it. I won't attend to it until I am safely away from this ship and have landed on Tatooine.

Then I hear the warm-up of the preliminary ignition of the freighter. I start my engines and activate departure procedures. A warning light tells me that the hatch will not close.

Want =/= actually doing. It's hyperbole. Watson is actually a much more conservative writer when it comes to Jedi/Sith power scales.

Okay so this isn't at all hyperbole at all.

Seeing as the fastest sword Swings by Human records is 1000 in 36mins which is 28 swings per min and that's 2 swings per second. A force sensitive to easily out do paced that or complete that feat seeing as Maul has been stated to react at LIGHTNING SPEED. Lightning is 1/3 the speed of light which is a rough estimate of 224,000,000mph, 3,700,000mpm, and 62,000mps that means that to perform that feat in 1second it would only take 1/62 the amount of speed of reaction he needed. Do to feats and scaling either way it wouldn't be considered hyperbole.

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#45 Edited by Kilius (1164 posts) - - Show Bio

@foxdie:

So out of the many other different feats and you nitpick which is eliminating practicality

It adds context to those feats and shows authorial intent. Maul is fast but he's not even close to hypersonic. Force users are much slower than they are often portrayed on these forums even in Legends. Hyperbolic figurative statements, that are overblown and often taken out of context notwithstanding.

That padawan... was at their VERY PEAK when they performed that.

Cool. I've read and own the book too. It's one of my favorites. I especially love the cover of the first edition. Hate the cover for the second edition.

Maul performed it effortlessly

He's awesome, isn't he?

In that scenario it was a small cubicle

Which wouldn't have hindered his ability to reach for his lightsaber.

while you nitpick that 1 statement..

I'm not nitpicking anything. If you have a problem with Maul being limited in that scenario take it up with Reaves the author of the book, and the man who is one of the most responsible for Maul's speed hype. Basically what Reaves is showing us is that although Maul is incredibly fast, he's not even close to hypersonic. His speed is only a little above enhanced human.

he still acknowledged that he could dodge 2 blaster bolts from a semi automatic at point blank range within a SMALL CUBICLE

Cool, doesn't really change the fact Maul wouldn't have been able to reach for his lightsaber in time, which speaks to his limits.

Which further destroys your own credibility

Don't really see what that has to do with Maul but noted I guess.

Not to mentioned I listed events from multiple sources not just one so you tried the Cognitive Dissonance, Slothful Induction, make Unrepresented Samples and the Fallacy of Exclusion game while using insignificant evidence but you failed.

I addressed them. Most fall under the category of "too fast for the eye to see" which doesn't prove you can move at even hypersonic let alone light speed. I only needed one line to refute it which I did. Others are obviously literary hyperbole.

Also, you can dispense with the fallacy pontifications. It just makes look you like an uptight pretentious fool.

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#46 Posted by DrPepperMan (5477 posts) - - Show Bio

Superman uses a stronger force. The statue force.

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#47 Posted by SuperHulk24 (491 posts) - - Show Bio

Superman

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#48 Edited by Foxdie (299 posts) - - Show Bio

@kilius said:

@foxdie:

So out of the many other different feats and you nitpick which is eliminating practicality

It adds context to those feats and shows authorial intent. Maul is fast but he's not even close to hypersonic. Force users are much slower than they are often portrayed on these forums even in Legends. Hyperbolic figurative statements, that are overblown and often taken out of context notwithstanding.

That padawan... was at their VERY PEAK when they performed that.

Cool. I've read and own the book too. It's one of my favorites. I especially love the cover of the first edition. Hate the cover for the second edition.

Maul performed it effortlessly

He's awesome, isn't he?

In that scenario it was a small cubicle

Which wouldn't have hindered his ability to reach for his lightsaber.

while you nitpick that 1 statement..

I'm not nitpicking anything. If you have a problem with Maul being limited in that scenario take it up with Reaves the author of the book, and the man who is one of the most responsible for Maul's speed hype. Basically what Reaves is showing us is that although Maul is incredibly fast, he's not even close to hypersonic. His speed is only a little above enhanced human.

he still acknowledged that he could dodge 2 blaster bolts from a semi automatic at point blank range within a SMALL CUBICLE

Cool, doesn't really change the fact Maul wouldn't have been able to reach for his lightsaber in time, which speaks to his limits.

Which further destroys your own credibility

Don't really see what that has to do with Maul but noted I guess.

Not to mentioned I listed events from multiple sources not just one so you tried the Cognitive Dissonance, Slothful Induction, make Unrepresented Samples and the Fallacy of Exclusion game while using insignificant evidence but you failed.

I addressed them. Most fall under the category of "too fast for the eye to see" which doesn't prove you can move at even hypersonic let alone light speed. I only needed one line to refute it which I did. Others are obviously literary hyperbole.

Also, you can dispense with the fallacy pontifications. It just makes look you like an uptight pretentious fool.

It adds context to those feats and shows authorial intent. Maul is fast but he's not even close to hypersonic. Force users are much slower than they are often portrayed on these forums even in Legends. Hyperbolic figurative statements, that are overblown and often taken out of context notwithstanding.

To dodge a SINGLE Bullet from an AK47 semi auto would take you about 434,375mph, 7,240 mpm or 121miles per second.

And That's MASSIVELY LOW BALLING. Seeing as it would only take 4.25ms to hit you from just 10feet away.. and that's TEN FEET AWAY she was closer in a INCLOSED Cubicle. He was stated to be able to dodge 2 at a much closer point blank range. I also lowballed this scaling by alot, so even if you wanted to just disregard his lightning speed reaction and keep mumbling gibberish about him being slower then Hypersonic.. that wouldn't be true at all.

Hypersonic is 9,896 mph.. only 9,896mph. I'm also waiting for that official website link that you keep failing to mention. Yet you have time to come up with these irrelevant conclusions.. Omg is that because... IT ISN'T A CREDIBLE SOURCE! Sounds about correct seeing as all the other regurgitated nonsense you've been spewing. Oh and incase your math skills are horrendous aswell. That's 44x Hypersonic speed which completely shits on your claims and statements once again.

It's also not hyperbole if it has consistently happened multiple times that's why I mentioned multiple feats and you only nitpicked the bs.. I'm smelling your nonsense again.

I'm not nitpicking anything. If you have a problem with Maul being limited in that scenario take it up with Reaves the author of the book, and the man who is one of the most responsible for Maul's speed hype. Basically what Reaves is showing us is that although Maul is incredibly fast, he's not even close to hypersonic. His speed is only a little above enhanced human.

So sense apparently you are a liar or just plain stupid aswell let's look up the definition of nitpicking

  1. 1.looking for small or unimportant errors or faults, especially in order to criticize unnecessarily."a nitpicking legalistic exercise"

noun

1.fussy fault-finding."nitpicking over tiny details"

So you can bring up that lying nonsense again, I literally gave you multiple evidence and you literally nitpicked a small SITUATIONAL scan where a dude is literally stuck in a in closed area to try to make light of his reaction feat which you were so unintelligent that you couldn't even realize that's literally a strong level of movement restriction. Something is not considered Hyperbole when it has happened consistently or multiple times at that point it becomes a consistent tangible feat and anything contradicting it AFTER that point is consider plot induced stupidity. How about you go learn what Hyperbole actually means.

hy·per·bo·le/hīˈpərbəlē/noun

  1. exaggerated statements or claims not meant to be taken literally.

Can't be hypobole because he has performed the feats multiple times canonically and consistently. Usually if it happens more then 1 or 3 time it's no longer considered Hyperbole you have no idea how the word Hyperbole is used next time educate yourself before you make a statement.

Cool, doesn't really change the fact Maul wouldn't have been able to reach for his lightsaber in time, which speaks to his limits.

It honestly does do you know what point blank range is and limited movement? Put a trained fighter in a in closed area with a body builder with restricted movement whose known for how well he dodges and see how well that goes. As a matter of fact put Floyd Mayweather in a in closed Area with the Big Show limited movement see how well he dodges a fist. You are literally coming up with irrelevant conclusions and using logic chopping.

I addressed them. Most fall under the category of "too fast for the eye to see" which doesn't prove you can move at even hypersonic let alone light speed. I only needed one line to refute it which I did. Others are obviously literary hyperbole.

Also, you can dispense with the fallacy pontifications. It just makes look you like an uptight pretentious fool.

Lmfao did you literally just try to peer pressure me into not calling out your decietful manipulative style of debating? Don't deflect me calling you out on your bs isn't making me look like a fool, it's been making you looking like a fool and you've been butthurt grasping for straws this entire time. Lol did you literally try to tell me I seem dumb for using logic? For one this wouldn't have even started if you didn't even come at me. 2. Lol you really just tried to peer pressure me and use reverse psychology for me pointing out your fallacious reasoning that makes no sense. You really are a sad manipulator nice try but read this definition of what a logical fallacy is, if in your eyes that makes me look like a fool then you must be a pretty simple idiotic individual.

"A logical fallacy is an error in reasoning that renders an argument invalid. Also called afallacy, an informal logical fallacy, and an informal fallacy. In a broad sense, all logical fallacies are nonsequiturs—arguments in which in which a conclusion doesn't follow logically from what preceded it."

Face it, you and your "homies" came at me and just happened to find out you came at the wrong one. Now you're trying to salvage whatever remaining L's you have left by nitpicking every possible thing you can. You should try to stop while you're already not ahead.

Not to mention we also know that a blaster bolt is at minimum 4x fasters then that do to scaling and if you don't want to go by that there were statements on why certain Trandoshan weaponry was considered outdated because they used "primitive" bullets.

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#49 Posted by Kilius (1164 posts) - - Show Bio

@foxdie:

So the mask comes off. Actually, it happened in post number 17#, but by all means, keep exposing yourself. Its conduct like this that will eventually get you banned just like a former resident troll fairtrade.

And That's MASSIVELY LOW BALLING. Seeing as it would only take 4.25ms to hit you from just 10feet away.. and that's TEN FEET AWAY she was closer in a INCLOSED Cubicle. He was stated to be able to dodge 2 at a much closer point blank range. I also lowballed this scaling by alot, so even if you wanted to just disregard his lightning speed reaction and keep mumbling gibberish about him being slower then Hypersonic.. that wouldn't be true at all.

First, realize that SW authors don't usually take math or exacting science into account. There's a bit of suspension of disbelief involved in all this. Even non-Force sensitives have dodge blasters. Hell, look at DC, Batman for all his training is still biologically human with no enhancements, by the laws of nature his brain shouldn't be capable of even perceiving bullets let alone dodging bullets. Don't mix fiction with real life.

Reacting =/= speed. I was using precog and reaction time synonymously. For all practical purposes, it means the same thing. It's how Jedi get their 'Jedi reflexes'. It's like a spidey sense. It doesn't mean they can actually move that fast, is what I'm saying.

Yeah, Maul can react to and dodge blasters. He's fast. It doesn't mean he or any Force user, which goes back to the original point can move close to lightspeed. Otherwise, a non-Force sensitive Togarian who doesn't have any supernatural powers, wouldn't be able to sidestep a strike aiming for his chest:

"Maul was irritated by the Togorians' tendency to taunt before striking. He was also eager to leave the freighter, as he expected the other pirates to start the engines at any moment. He whirled in an arc and went for the hulking Togarion's chest. Incredibly the pirate sidestepped the attack." ~ The Wrath of Darth Maul

This comes again from one of the same sources where Maul gets his speed hype. Can a non-Force sensitive Togarion move at hypersonic speeds?

So you can bring up that lying nonsense again, I literally gave you multiple evidence and you literally nitpicked a small SITUATIONAL scan where a dude is literally stuck in a in closed area to try to make light of his reaction feat which you were so unintelligent that you couldn't even realize that's literally a strong level of movement restriction. Something is not considered Hyperbole when it has happened consistently or multiple times at that point it becomes a consistent tangible feat and anything contradicting it AFTER that point is consider plot induced stupidity. How about you go learn what Hyperbole actually means.

So you are saying Reaves, Watson, and Windham doesn't know how fast Maul is?

Actually, Reaves does:

But there was an even quicker way to overtake them. He called upon the Force, moving easily five times faster than a human could travel at a dead run. There was no way they could escape him now.

Darth Maul Shadow Hunter

Pretty darned bellow hypersonic, even if you go by Olympic records. He ain't no Flash or even Dash.

Can't be hypobole because he has performed the feats multiple times canonically and consistently.

He's also underperformed consistently, and by the same authors from which the feats come from. Not denying he can deflect and dodge blasters, move too fast for the eye to see, or blitz fodder. All of which is well bellow hypersonic and aided by Force precog/Jedi reflexes.

It honestly does do you know what point blank range is and limited movement? Put a trained fighter in a in closed area with a body builder with restricted movement whose known for how well he dodges and see how well that goes. As a matter of fact put Floyd Mayweather in a in closed Area with the Big Show limited movement see how well he dodges a fist. You are literally coming up with irrelevant conclusions and using logic chopping.

Fine good for Maul. Never denied he isn't insanely capable. Doesn't prove he's hypersonic.

Lmfao did you literally just try to peer pressure me into not calling out your decietful manipulative style of debating? Don't deflect me calling you out on your bs isn't making me look like a fool, it's been making you looking like a fool and you've been butthurt grasping for straws this entire time. Lol did you literally try to tell me I seem dumb for using logic?

Don't kid yourself, no one, even on the internet in serious debate talks like that. Pointing out a fallacy here and there sure. You talk like you're trying to impress the bar association, and it's coming off as pretentious, not clever.

For one this wouldn't have even started if you didn't even come at me.

You replied to me first. It was relatively civil. I sent a cheeky 'headcanon' comment; something you did constantly to me in the Darth Sidious vs Bane thread. You then completely went off the handle and took it as an insult, hypocrite. A light jab which you used constantly on me and others is an insult and cause to fly off the handle like that? I'd hate to meet you in a real-life social situation.

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#50 Posted by RedHeathen (1865 posts) - - Show Bio

@foxdie said:
@kilius said:

@green_tea:

Flash is faster than Sidious could possibly imagine. Superman contending with his speed should more than suffice.

That's movie flash who isn't lightspeed, and movie Superman does not compete with movie Flash in speed.

They didn't show a winner in the movie. Aside from that, they both seem to think they are close enough in speed to test each other. If one is faster than the other, I would think it is negligible, but Flash in the most recent movie is still young and will become faster-or he should if the new movie Flash is consistent with previous versions. Ultimately, as in his prime, Flash will most likely be faster SM, but that is personal opinion. I know this can be argued ad infinitum, which is not something I wish to do.

I can't help but think that if the Sith or the Jedi were capable of such an ability as reaching Mach 9000, then we would have seen it. It would have been blatantly obvious because there would be physical signs, including but not limited to: There would be sonic booms. There would be shattered glass. There would be burned clothing if not burned flesh. Even if a Force user can protect their bodies from burning, their clothes would surely disintegrate.

@foxdie Maul, similarly to many other Force users, can indeed move quite swiftly. However, there is really no way to gauge how quickly they move. The only true measure I've seen so far is the quote from ROTS where the magna guards are said to have "speed of lightning" reflexes, which I'm not entirely certain is not hyperbole. I might tweet the author about this, but don't hold your breath. I may or may not, and even if I do, half the time the author's don't reply. If they do reply, then 100% of the time the users here will argue about some trivial crap such as "the author isn't a member of the Story Group so we can't rely on what they say." This is why I am not sure if it is worth the effort to ask, but I might do it anyway. We'll see.

Maul's feat of catching four arrows is truly noteworthy, but, again, it tells us nothing about his speed.

I had more to say, but see the end of this reply for why I didn't finish.

Canon only? Superman is faster than Force users, yeah.

EU, tho, is another story.

I am interested in gauging these speeds. Can you please supply me with sources?

___________________________________________________

Just a little info to use for comparison:

Superman at mach 9300 (which is below what he was calculated at) is going 7,135,603 million mph.

Light speed is calculated at 6.706e+8 mph, or best understood as: 670,616,629 mph.

LS is 663 Million mph faster than Superman, but please remember that this number was derived as shown in one of my previous replies. Also remember that he can travel at LS in the vacuum of space. The number we have for SM was calculated from a single event, IIRC, and I added it to give an example.

In CW's tv show, The Flash, Flash had not reached these numbers and came no where near them (I have not watched any of this year's new season), and he was certainly extraordinarily fast. No one could see him. There was a rush of wind when he'd go by unseen, and again, we see (nor read) no hint of any type physical disturbance when a Jedi or Sith uses augmented speed.

========

I started this response hours ago but had to walk away from my laptop. Then I forgot about it because I have a few hojillion tabs open so it got lost. There have been new replies, which I have yet to read. I had more I wanted to say here, but only the gods know what else I had to say so I will post it as is.