Which Star Wars characters can replicate this feat? (Legends)

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SheevSmacker

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If you say someone can, say why. Also state versions if possible (e.g. ROTS Yoda for example rather than just Yoda)

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  • ROTJ or ROTS Sidious
  • ROTS Yoda
  • ROTS Mace Windu
  • Grandmaster Luke Skywalker
  • The Father / The Son / The Daughter
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GraniteVision

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Could MCU Ebony Maw rep this?

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SheevSmacker

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Could MCU Ebony Maw rep this?

no.

also

Which Star Wars characters can replicate this feat? (Legends)

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SheevSmacker

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@subline said:
  • ROTJ or ROTS Sidious
  • ROTS Yoda
  • ROTS Mace Windu
  • Grandmaster Luke Skywalker
  • The Father / The Son / The Daughter

Why them?

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@sheevsmacker: Since you didn't highlight ROTS Sidious, I assume you agree he can replicate this feat?

Yoda matched Sidious in the Force when they fought in ROTS:

No Caption Provided

As for Mace Windu, as far as I know he doesn't have as clear cut scaling. But I don't think the gap is substantial enough for Sids/Yoda to be able to replicate this feat while Windu isn't, he'll just struggle more but he'll get the job done of pulling down the ISD.

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Everyone who is around pre-Death Star Galen Marek, who should be a rough equal of Vader (he surpassed him fighting him). This considering they live in TFU exaggerated world.

So, plenty of characters.

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Dooku, Anakin, Windu, Kenobi, Maul, Sidious, Yoda, Vaylin, Revan, Arcann, Malgus, Valk/Vitiate, Exar Kun, Krayt, Luke, Jacen/Caedus, Jaina, Cade, Ben, Kyp, Plagueis, Nihilius, Ragnos, Tenebrous, Outlander, Nyax, Wyyrlock, Nadd, Suit Vader, possibly Mara Jade and Kyle Katarn off the top of my head.

Probably forgetting some Ancient Sith and post ROTJ characters but more or less. It's really not that impressive of a feat tbh, SK has better feats than this.

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KillBilly

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#10  Edited By KillBilly  Online

It'd be fun to see some of these so called "SW debaters" attempt to argue their characters could replicate this feat in a cross verse debate. Though I'm sure they're smart enough to realize their crap only gets them so far within the verse itself let alone one when the opponent is not humoring their presumptions.

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SheevSmacker

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@subline said:

@sheevsmacker: Since you didn't highlight ROTS Sidious, I assume you agree he can replicate this feat?

Yoda matched Sidious in the Force when they fought in ROTS:

No Caption Provided

As for Mace Windu, as far as I know he doesn't have as clear cut scaling. But I don't think the gap is substantial enough for Sids/Yoda to be able to replicate this feat while Windu isn't, he'll just struggle more but he'll get the job done of pulling down the ISD.

Sorry I mean to highlight ROTS Sheev as well.

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#12  Edited By DarthAdi  Online
@killbilly said:

It'd be fun to see some of these so called "SW debaters" attempt to argue their characters could replicate this feat in a cross verse debate. Though I'm sure they're smart enough to realize their crap only gets them so far within the verse itself let alone one when the opponent is not humoring their presumptions.

Facts

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@killbilly said:

It'd be fun to see some of these so called "SW debaters" attempt to argue their characters could replicate this feat in a cross verse debate. Though I'm sure they're smart enough to realize their crap only gets them so far within the verse itself let alone one when the opponent is not humoring their presumptions.

This version of Galen is sub shadow guard level, who is sub Ventress:

The most powerful of these agents were 'only' Sith adepts but would appear almost as dark Jedi- the likes of Asajj Ventress, Mara Jade, or Inquisitor Valin Draco (in fact, a fallen Jedi). The lesser agents were reduced to still-deadly faceless minions. Amongst their ranks were the Shadow Guard.

Meaning a Ventress level force user can replicate this feat. Which of course, lines up perfectly with an early TCW Anakin (who can be ragdolled by early TCW Ventress) moving a CIS dreadnought. Just tack onto that the magnitude of power difference between early TCW Ventress and the likes of Dooku and it's quite clear a majority of force users can replicate this feat quite comfortably.

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#14  Edited By Wolfrazer

@w4nkdestroyer: How is Galen sub Shadow Guard? He's certainly not in The Force, he's far more powerful.

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#15  Edited By KillBilly  Online

@w4nkdestroyer: That garbage argument was already debunked over 2 years ago:

Shadow Guard Scaling

Recently, I've seen people using the following quote to place Ventress on or above Galen's level as of his mission to Nar Shaddaa:

In that particular instance, Bane and Sidious were foiled, but Sidious' basic aims remained. He sought to create a network of Force-wielding agents loyal only to him. None would be trained sufficiently to be a threat to Darth Bane's insistence that there only be two Sith, nor would they be a threat to Darth Sidious or his apprentice, Darth Vader. The most powerful of these agents were "only" Sith adepts but would appear almost as dark Jedi - the likes of Asajj Ventress, Mara Jade, or Inquisitor Valin Draco (in fact, a fallen Jedi). The lesser agents were reduced to still-deadly faceless minions. Among their ranks were the Shadow Guard.

-- The Official Starships And Vehicles Collection 63

The argument is as follows. Because a Shadow Guard gave Galen a "tough fight" and Ventress is above any Shadow Guard, she must also be above Galen at that point in the story, or at least on his level.

I'll be pointing out the flaws in this "reasoning" below.

1. The Shadow Guard being "tough work" for Galen in no way implies that they are equals.

"Stand up, General," the apprentice called over the racket. "They may be shooting at me right now, but they came here for you."Then he was forced to concentrate on the Imperials and their local allies. The mechanical "Uggernaughts" were heavily armored and armed both. His first priority was to knock them out. He pushed one onto its side with the Force and overloaded the electrical systems of the second, encouraging the stormtroopers in scatter. The smell of scorched Ugnaught fur made the cantina smell even worse. From outside, he could already hear the clanking of reinforcements."

-

As he fought his way toward the cantina's back door, he commed the Rogue Shadow and told Juno that he would need a rapid dust-off.

"Same place I dropped you off, I presume."

"Unless it gets too hot there." He brought the ceiling down on one of the troopers and telekinetically threw rubble at another. "Stay close and wait for my signal."

"Will do. Juno out."

He glanced behind him. Kota was finally moving, hunched like a stunned mine crab with his hands splayed before him. Hopefully the Force would be with Kota, because the apprentice knew with one look through the door that he would have his work cut out for him. There were at least two dozen Imperials in the storeroom, taking cover behind crates and barrels. A line of Uggernaughts promised to make short work of him if he so much as blinked.

-

A glimpse of a black-robed figure standing with the stormtroopers stopped him in his tracks. On sight of him, it tilted its black helmet and ignited a red lightsaber. The stormtroopers dropped to their knees and fired. The apprentice's blade came up of its own accord. Moving in extreme slow motion, as though the air were made of treacle, he deflected volley after volley from the blasters back at the troopers who fired them. They staggered and fell with smoke pouring from shoulder and neck joints. Their cries barely registered."

-

A bolt of Sith lightning shot from the hand not holding the staff. The apprentice grinned, having anticipated that tactic. He met the lightning bolt with one of his own. They collided in a spitting crackling ball of pure energy that danced crazily from side to side. The air filled with the sharp stink of ozone. The hooded assassin grunted and applied more effort. The apprentice met that effort and exceeded it. The ease with which he drove his assailant's lightning back surprised him.

-

A squad of troopers was waiting for him in the heat exchange, with three of the mobile Uggernaughts. He made short work of them, neither rushing recklessly in nor drawing the fight out, There was no point to be made here. They were simply inconveniences. He tossed the last of the Uggernaughts into the spinning blades of a fan four times as tall as he was. It exploded in a ball of flame, almost taking out its twin farther along the heat exchange. Out of the cloud of metal fragments leapt a second of the Emperor's Sith assassins, saber-staff upraised. The apprentice met him with a clash of sparks and lightning. Sith against Sith, they fought backward and forward through the broad, metal-lined space. This assassin was more proficient than the first, wiry and strong with a good reach and penchant for telekinetically throwing items from inside the apprentice's blind spot. He proved to be tough work until the apprentice wrenched the next giant fan off its gimbals and sent it spinning through the air. The black guard seemed so stunned by the sight of it that he didn't jump until it was too late. One spinning blade took his right leg off at the knee. From then, the fight was over.

-

Stepping out into the open air, he found himself facing another squad of troopers, two more of the Emperor's assassins, and no less than six Uggernaughts. Two transport balloons heavily weighted with supplies hung overhead, motors whirring to keep them on station, presumably waiting to land. Kota was nowhere in he seen. The apprentice bent his knees and adopted a fighting stance.

-- The Force Unleashed.

For context, a large number of Imperial forces have arrived in order to capture or kill Rahm Kota. Because Galen's own mission is reliant on acquiring Rahm Kota as an ally, he engages these forces.

Throughout this engagement the Imperials are constantly receiving reinforcements with Galen being aware of this fact. The Shadow Guards that is described to be "tough work" is one of four that Galen faces throughout the mission with the first being dealt with so easily that Galen is notably surprised. The second guard is "tough work" when compared to the previous Shadow Guard, yet is still dealt with before further reinforcements arrive. This does not make him close to Galen's level.

I really couldn't care less what kind of scaling you try to argue from the CW era. I'd just love to see you try it outside of a SW thread. Tag me if you ever do, lol.

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@w4nkdestroyer: How is Galen sub Shadow Guard? He's certainly not in The Force, he's far more powerful.

Galen was fighting evenly with a shadowguard and only won via cheapshot:

Out of the cloud of metal fragments leapt a second of the Emperor's Sith assassins, saber-staff upraised. The apprentice met him with a clash of sparks and lightning.

Sith against Sith, they fought backward and forward through the broad, metal-lined space. This assassin was more proficient than the first, wiry and strong with a good reach and penchant for telekinetically throwing items from inside the apprentice's blind spot. He proved to be tough work until the apprentice wrenched the next giant fan off its gimbals and sent it spinning through the air. The black guard seemed so stunned by the sight of it that he didn't jump until it was too late. One spinning blade took his right leg off at the knee. From then, the fight was over.

The Force Unleashed

This is actually a stronger Galen than the one shown here, hence why I said sub shadow guard.

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#17  Edited By KillBilly  Online
@w4nkdestroyer said:
@wolfrazer said:

@w4nkdestroyer: How is Galen sub Shadow Guard? He's certainly not in The Force, he's far more powerful.

Galen was fighting evenly with a shadowguard and only won via cheapshot:

Out of the cloud of metal fragments leapt a second of the Emperor's Sith assassins, saber-staff upraised. The apprentice met him with a clash of sparks and lightning.

Sith against Sith, they fought backward and forward through the broad, metal-lined space. This assassin was more proficient than the first, wiry and strong with a good reach and penchant for telekinetically throwing items from inside the apprentice's blind spot. He proved to be tough work until the apprentice wrenched the next giant fan off its gimbals and sent it spinning through the air. The black guard seemed so stunned by the sight of it that he didn't jump until it was too late. One spinning blade took his right leg off at the knee. From then, the fight was over.

The Force Unleashed

This is actually a stronger Galen than the one shown here, hence why I said sub shadow guard.

How is it a "cheapshot" to literally divert your focus during a fight to grab onto an object telekinetically and throw it at your opponent while simultaneously fending them off?

Galen is stated to have grown after encountering the Shadow Guard and the feat in the OP occurs after he fought them. You're just telling straight up lies at this point which would be comical if it wasn't so sad.

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#18  Edited By Wolfrazer

@w4nkdestroyer: That didn't prove that the Shadow Guard was superior in The Force. Nor that Galen was weaker, they were fighting mostly in melee combat with the SG using The Force to throw things at him. Galen then ended the fight by using The Force to throw a fan at him.

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@w4nkdestroyer: That garbage argument was already debunked over 2 years ago:

Shadow Guard Scaling

Recently, I've seen people using the following quote to place Ventress on or above Galen's level as of his mission to Nar Shaddaa:

In that particular instance, Bane and Sidious were foiled, but Sidious' basic aims remained. He sought to create a network of Force-wielding agents loyal only to him. None would be trained sufficiently to be a threat to Darth Bane's insistence that there only be two Sith, nor would they be a threat to Darth Sidious or his apprentice, Darth Vader. The most powerful of these agents were "only" Sith adepts but would appear almost as dark Jedi - the likes of Asajj Ventress, Mara Jade, or Inquisitor Valin Draco (in fact, a fallen Jedi). The lesser agents were reduced to still-deadly faceless minions. Among their ranks were the Shadow Guard.

-- The Official Starships And Vehicles Collection 63

The argument is as follows. Because a Shadow Guard gave Galen a "tough fight" and Ventress is above any Shadow Guard, she must also be above Galen at that point in the story, or at least on his level.

I'll be pointing out the flaws in this "reasoning" below.

1. The Shadow Guard being "tough work" for Galen in no way implies that they are equals.

"Stand up, General," the apprentice called over the racket. "They may be shooting at me right now, but they came here for you."Then he was forced to concentrate on the Imperials and their local allies. The mechanical "Uggernaughts" were heavily armored and armed both. His first priority was to knock them out. He pushed one onto its side with the Force and overloaded the electrical systems of the second, encouraging the stormtroopers in scatter. The smell of scorched Ugnaught fur made the cantina smell even worse. From outside, he could already hear the clanking of reinforcements."

-

As he fought his way toward the cantina's back door, he commed the Rogue Shadow and told Juno that he would need a rapid dust-off.

"Same place I dropped you off, I presume."

"Unless it gets too hot there." He brought the ceiling down on one of the troopers and telekinetically threw rubble at another. "Stay close and wait for my signal."

"Will do. Juno out."

He glanced behind him. Kota was finally moving, hunched like a stunned mine crab with his hands splayed before him. Hopefully the Force would be with Kota, because the apprentice knew with one look through the door that he would have his work cut out for him. There were at least two dozen Imperials in the storeroom, taking cover behind crates and barrels. A line of Uggernaughts promised to make short work of him if he so much as blinked.

-

A glimpse of a black-robed figure standing with the stormtroopers stopped him in his tracks. On sight of him, it tilted its black helmet and ignited a red lightsaber. The stormtroopers dropped to their knees and fired. The apprentice's blade came up of its own accord. Moving in extreme slow motion, as though the air were made of treacle, he deflected volley after volley from the blasters back at the troopers who fired them. They staggered and fell with smoke pouring from shoulder and neck joints. Their cries barely registered."

-

A bolt of Sith lightning shot from the hand not holding the staff. The apprentice grinned, having anticipated that tactic. He met the lightning bolt with one of his own. They collided in a spitting crackling ball of pure energy that danced crazily from side to side. The air filled with the sharp stink of ozone. The hooded assassin grunted and applied more effort. The apprentice met that effort and exceeded it. The ease with which he drove his assailant's lightning back surprised him.

-

A squad of troopers was waiting for him in the heat exchange, with three of the mobile Uggernaughts. He made short work of them, neither rushing recklessly in nor drawing the fight out, There was no point to be made here. They were simply inconveniences. He tossed the last of the Uggernaughts into the spinning blades of a fan four times as tall as he was. It exploded in a ball of flame, almost taking out its twin farther along the heat exchange. Out of the cloud of metal fragments leapt a second of the Emperor's Sith assassins, saber-staff upraised. The apprentice met him with a clash of sparks and lightning. Sith against Sith, they fought backward and forward through the broad, metal-lined space. This assassin was more proficient than the first, wiry and strong with a good reach and penchant for telekinetically throwing items from inside the apprentice's blind spot. He proved to be tough work until the apprentice wrenched the next giant fan off its gimbals and sent it spinning through the air. The black guard seemed so stunned by the sight of it that he didn't jump until it was too late. One spinning blade took his right leg off at the knee. From then, the fight was over.

-

Stepping out into the open air, he found himself facing another squad of troopers, two more of the Emperor's assassins, and no less than six Uggernaughts. Two transport balloons heavily weighted with supplies hung overhead, motors whirring to keep them on station, presumably waiting to land. Kota was nowhere in he seen. The apprentice bent his knees and adopted a fighting stance.

-- The Force Unleashed.

For context, a large number of Imperial forces have arrived in order to capture or kill Rahm Kota. Because Galen's own mission is reliant on acquiring Rahm Kota as an ally, he engages these forces.

Throughout this engagement the Imperials are constantly receiving reinforcements with Galen being aware of this fact. The Shadow Guards that is described to be "tough work" is one of four that Galen faces throughout the mission with the first being dealt with so easily that Galen is notably surprised. The second guard is "tough work" when compared to the previous Shadow Guard, yet is still dealt with before further reinforcements arrive. This does not make him close to Galen's level.

You're entire counterargument revolves around the idea that the "tough work" was in comparison to previous shadowguards, and anybody with a basic understanding of the English languages knows nothing substantiates that claim at all. The comparison made is this:

This assassin was more proficient than the first, wiry and strong with a good reach and penchant for telekinetically throwing items from inside the apprentice's blind spot.

Not this:

He proved to be tough work

He proved to be tough work compared to whom? There is no comparison made in the second quote, unlike the first quote where a distinct comparison is made between the two.

Furthermore besides Ventress scaling directly above Galen via Shadowguard scaling, she scales above early TCW Anakin, who was capable of moving a CIS dreadnought.

Despite that, early war Ventress was capable of pinning a stronger version of Anakin to the wall:

The men sprinted for the door, plunging into the acrid black smoke that now filled the courtyard. It was some kind of cover for a few seconds. Anakin saw the droids, hampered by their own debris, and his eyes went to the blazing carcass of the AT-TE.

Just do it.

Adrenaline fueled him. He sent the wreckage skidding across the ground with a massive Force push. The kinetic force of the impact and the sheet of flame released when it slammed into the droid ranks had the effect of a bomb going off.

The Clone Wars junior novel

And early war Obi Wan is even more powerful than her:

Kenobi raced away. She pursued.

He's not invincible. He couldn't take Fett. But he's not trying this time.

Ventress wouldn't trust Kenobi as far as she could spit.

She stalked him, and this time it was his turn to leap out at her and strike. He drove her back against a wall, but she used it as a springboard to Force-push him back before hacking at him with all the raw strength she could muster. It wasn't hard to summon up. She simply saw Narec, and wanted to destroy the whole world in vengeance.

Kenobi's lightsaber spun in the air. For a second she thought it was a trick; but she'd knocked it from his hand. Her blade was at his throat in a heartbeat.

Kenobi looked up at her, chest rising and falling as he caught his breath. "Okay, Ventress, are you going to gloat and give me a speech on the futility of my mission?"

"No," she said. "I'm just going to kill you."

Then he threw her backward with a Force push. She hit a column hard enough to hear something crack, and staggered to her feet. Kenobi summoned his lightsaber back to his hand with a grin.

The Clone Wars

So the line of scaling we get is:

Early War Obi Wan>>Early War Ventress>>Early War Anakin

Nevermind the fact that all 3 of these characters progress massively throughout the war as well.

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#21  Edited By KillBilly  Online

@w4nkdestroyer: That didn't prove that the Shadow Guard was superior in The Force. Nor that Galen was weaker, they were fighting mostly in melee combat with the SG using The Force to throw things at him. Galen then ended the fight by using The Force to throw a fan at him.

He's trying to argue that them fighting "backward and forward" somehow implies parity when it's far more likely Galen was simply figuring out the best way to take the SG out while utilizing a minimal amount of energy since he couldn't draw on his full power with Kota being nearby and would have needed to conserve it anyways since he was fighting waves of Imperial forces as they continued to receive reinforcements.

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@killbilly said:
@w4nkdestroyer said:
@wolfrazer said:

@w4nkdestroyer: How is Galen sub Shadow Guard? He's certainly not in The Force, he's far more powerful.

Galen was fighting evenly with a shadowguard and only won via cheapshot:

Out of the cloud of metal fragments leapt a second of the Emperor's Sith assassins, saber-staff upraised. The apprentice met him with a clash of sparks and lightning.

Sith against Sith, they fought backward and forward through the broad, metal-lined space. This assassin was more proficient than the first, wiry and strong with a good reach and penchant for telekinetically throwing items from inside the apprentice's blind spot. He proved to be tough work until the apprentice wrenched the next giant fan off its gimbals and sent it spinning through the air. The black guard seemed so stunned by the sight of it that he didn't jump until it was too late. One spinning blade took his right leg off at the knee. From then, the fight was over.

The Force Unleashed

This is actually a stronger Galen than the one shown here, hence why I said sub shadow guard.

How is it a "cheapshot" to literally divert your focus during a fight to grab onto an object telekinetically and throw it at your opponent while simultaneously fending them off?

The black guard seemed so stunned

This is how.

Galen is stated to have grown after encountering the Shadow Guard and the feat in the OP occurs after he fought them. You're just telling straight up lies at this point which would be comical if it wasn't so sad.

Honest mistake, been a while since I played or read TFU I or II.

Point still stands though.

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#24  Edited By Wolfrazer

@w4nkdestroyer: You still didn't show that the SG was equal or superior to Galen in The Force.

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@w4nkdestroyer: You still didn't show that the SG was equal or superior to Galen in The Force. So he's not sub SG in The Force.

@w4nkdestroyer: That didn't prove that the Shadow Guard was superior in The Force. Nor that Galen was weaker, they were fighting mostly in melee combat with the SG using The Force to throw things at him. Galen then ended the fight by using The Force to throw a fan at him.

Them fighting backward and forward as well as the SG proving to be a tough fight for SK implies parity in the force.

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Wolfrazer

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@w4nkdestroyer: In melee combat, which would be the strong suit of the SG compared to The Force given how they are trained. That doesn't mean anything Force wise.

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@killbilly said:
@wolfrazer said:

@w4nkdestroyer: That didn't prove that the Shadow Guard was superior in The Force. Nor that Galen was weaker, they were fighting mostly in melee combat with the SG using The Force to throw things at him. Galen then ended the fight by using The Force to throw a fan at him.

He's trying to argue that them fighting "backward and forward" somehow implies parity when it's far more likely Galen was simply figuring out the best way to take the SG out while utilizing a minimal amount of energy since he couldn't draw on his full power with Kota being nearby and would have needed to conserve it anyways since he was fighting waves of Imperial forces as they continued to receive reinforcements.

Yeah, because hitting somebody with a giant fan is a lot more energy efficient than just outright ragdolling them with the force, of course assuming this gap exists in the first place.

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@w4nkdestroyer: In melee combat, which would be the strong suit of the SG compared to The Force given how they are trained. That doesn't mean anything Force wise.

Force power and force aug have a direct correlation. Considering the SG's force aug was close enough to be considered a "tough fight", they have parity.

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@w4nkdestroyer: Ooor could just be the SG was just that skilled which would make sense, again nothing to do with The Force.

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@w4nkdestroyer: Ooor could just be the SG was just that skilled which would make sense, again nothing to do with The Force.

Baseless speculation, the intent is clear that the SG was supposed to be a challenge.

I'm sure Starkiller is the more skilled one anyway considering he was Vader's apprentice since an infant.

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#32  Edited By Wolfrazer

@w4nkdestroyer: Yeah, a challenge with his skill + the fact the SG was using The Force to throw things at Galen which would distract him, the reach with his weapon is also another advantage. So there isn't a comparison to their Force power. So Galen isn't sub SG in The Force.

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#33  Edited By KillBilly  Online
@w4nkdestroyer said:
@killbilly said:

@w4nkdestroyer: That garbage argument was already debunked over 2 years ago:

Shadow Guard Scaling

Recently, I've seen people using the following quote to place Ventress on or above Galen's level as of his mission to Nar Shaddaa:

In that particular instance, Bane and Sidious were foiled, but Sidious' basic aims remained. He sought to create a network of Force-wielding agents loyal only to him. None would be trained sufficiently to be a threat to Darth Bane's insistence that there only be two Sith, nor would they be a threat to Darth Sidious or his apprentice, Darth Vader. The most powerful of these agents were "only" Sith adepts but would appear almost as dark Jedi - the likes of Asajj Ventress, Mara Jade, or Inquisitor Valin Draco (in fact, a fallen Jedi). The lesser agents were reduced to still-deadly faceless minions. Among their ranks were the Shadow Guard.

-- The Official Starships And Vehicles Collection 63

The argument is as follows. Because a Shadow Guard gave Galen a "tough fight" and Ventress is above any Shadow Guard, she must also be above Galen at that point in the story, or at least on his level.

I'll be pointing out the flaws in this "reasoning" below.

1. The Shadow Guard being "tough work" for Galen in no way implies that they are equals.

"Stand up, General," the apprentice called over the racket. "They may be shooting at me right now, but they came here for you."Then he was forced to concentrate on the Imperials and their local allies. The mechanical "Uggernaughts" were heavily armored and armed both. His first priority was to knock them out. He pushed one onto its side with the Force and overloaded the electrical systems of the second, encouraging the stormtroopers in scatter. The smell of scorched Ugnaught fur made the cantina smell even worse. From outside, he could already hear the clanking of reinforcements."

-

As he fought his way toward the cantina's back door, he commed the Rogue Shadow and told Juno that he would need a rapid dust-off.

"Same place I dropped you off, I presume."

"Unless it gets too hot there." He brought the ceiling down on one of the troopers and telekinetically threw rubble at another. "Stay close and wait for my signal."

"Will do. Juno out."

He glanced behind him. Kota was finally moving, hunched like a stunned mine crab with his hands splayed before him. Hopefully the Force would be with Kota, because the apprentice knew with one look through the door that he would have his work cut out for him. There were at least two dozen Imperials in the storeroom, taking cover behind crates and barrels. A line of Uggernaughts promised to make short work of him if he so much as blinked.

-

A glimpse of a black-robed figure standing with the stormtroopers stopped him in his tracks. On sight of him, it tilted its black helmet and ignited a red lightsaber. The stormtroopers dropped to their knees and fired. The apprentice's blade came up of its own accord. Moving in extreme slow motion, as though the air were made of treacle, he deflected volley after volley from the blasters back at the troopers who fired them. They staggered and fell with smoke pouring from shoulder and neck joints. Their cries barely registered."

-

A bolt of Sith lightning shot from the hand not holding the staff. The apprentice grinned, having anticipated that tactic. He met the lightning bolt with one of his own. They collided in a spitting crackling ball of pure energy that danced crazily from side to side. The air filled with the sharp stink of ozone. The hooded assassin grunted and applied more effort. The apprentice met that effort and exceeded it. The ease with which he drove his assailant's lightning back surprised him.

-

A squad of troopers was waiting for him in the heat exchange, with three of the mobile Uggernaughts. He made short work of them, neither rushing recklessly in nor drawing the fight out, There was no point to be made here. They were simply inconveniences. He tossed the last of the Uggernaughts into the spinning blades of a fan four times as tall as he was. It exploded in a ball of flame, almost taking out its twin farther along the heat exchange. Out of the cloud of metal fragments leapt a second of the Emperor's Sith assassins, saber-staff upraised. The apprentice met him with a clash of sparks and lightning. Sith against Sith, they fought backward and forward through the broad, metal-lined space. This assassin was more proficient than the first, wiry and strong with a good reach and penchant for telekinetically throwing items from inside the apprentice's blind spot. He proved to be tough work until the apprentice wrenched the next giant fan off its gimbals and sent it spinning through the air. The black guard seemed so stunned by the sight of it that he didn't jump until it was too late. One spinning blade took his right leg off at the knee. From then, the fight was over.

-

Stepping out into the open air, he found himself facing another squad of troopers, two more of the Emperor's assassins, and no less than six Uggernaughts. Two transport balloons heavily weighted with supplies hung overhead, motors whirring to keep them on station, presumably waiting to land. Kota was nowhere in he seen. The apprentice bent his knees and adopted a fighting stance.

-- The Force Unleashed.

For context, a large number of Imperial forces have arrived in order to capture or kill Rahm Kota. Because Galen's own mission is reliant on acquiring Rahm Kota as an ally, he engages these forces.

Throughout this engagement the Imperials are constantly receiving reinforcements with Galen being aware of this fact. The Shadow Guards that is described to be "tough work" is one of four that Galen faces throughout the mission with the first being dealt with so easily that Galen is notably surprised. The second guard is "tough work" when compared to the previous Shadow Guard, yet is still dealt with before further reinforcements arrive. This does not make him close to Galen's level.

You're entire counterargument revolves around the idea that the "tough work" was in comparison to previous shadowguards, and anybody with a basic understanding of the English languages knows nothing substantiates that claim at all. The comparison made is this:

Not this:

He proved to be tough work compared to whom? There is no comparison made in the second quote, unlike the first quote where a distinct comparison is made between the two.

-

Furthermore besides Ventress scaling directly above Galen via Shadowguard scaling, she scales above early TCW Anakin, who was capable of moving a CIS dreadnought.

Despite that, early war Ventress was capable of pinning a stronger version of Anakin to the wall:

And early war Obi Wan is even more powerful than her:

-

So the line of scaling we get is:

Early War Obi Wan>>Early War Ventress>>Early War Anakin

Nevermind the fact that all 3 of these characters progress massively throughout the war as well.

Galen dealt with the Shadow Guard by casually decapitating them after exchanging a few lightsaber blows before reinforcements that Kota had warned were in the area and would be arriving soon could get there. If the phrase "tough work" isn't in the context of the other Shadow Guards or Imperial forces it's irrelevant because clearly the Shadow Guard didn't demonstrate parity simply because Galen allowed him to push an offensive for a time when he couldn't access his full power while likely trying to keep track of other forces in the area.

-

Please go and argue that a Shadow Guard is capable of replicating Galen's ISD feat in another thread based off of this comparison right now. I want to see you squirm like the toad you are.

-

Funny, you're actually using a quote I dug up to argue your stance, lol. What's even better is that I believe you're referring to the deleted scene from the TCW movie when you're referencing Ventress pinning early CW Anakin to a wall. If I'm wrong, I'd love to see the instance you're referencing.

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#34 KillBilly  Online


The black guard seemed so stunned

This is how.

Galen is stated to have grown after encountering the Shadow Guard and the feat in the OP occurs after he fought them. You're just telling straight up lies at this point which would be comical if it wasn't so sad.

Honest mistake, been a while since I played or read TFU I or II.

Point still stands though.

Why is that not simply an inability to react on the part of the Shadow Guard as opposed to a "cheapshot?"

Don't make claims you're not sure of. And your point doesn't stand.

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#35  Edited By Wolfrazer

@killbilly: The fact he brought up TCW related material at all doesn't matter, it doesn't mesh/fit with prior 08 works so it's all irrelevant. TCW is basically in another separate timeline.

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#36 KillBilly  Online

@wolfrazer said:

@w4nkdestroyer: You still didn't show that the SG was equal or superior to Galen in The Force. So he's not sub SG in The Force.

@wolfrazer said:

@w4nkdestroyer: That didn't prove that the Shadow Guard was superior in The Force. Nor that Galen was weaker, they were fighting mostly in melee combat with the SG using The Force to throw things at him. Galen then ended the fight by using The Force to throw a fan at him.

Them fighting backward and forward as well as the SG proving to be a tough fight for SK implies parity in the force.

No it doesn't for the reasons I've already stated:

@wolfrazer said:

@w4nkdestroyer: That didn't prove that the Shadow Guard was superior in The Force. Nor that Galen was weaker, they were fighting mostly in melee combat with the SG using The Force to throw things at him. Galen then ended the fight by using The Force to throw a fan at him.

He's trying to argue that them fighting "backward and forward" somehow implies parity when it's far more likely Galen was simply figuring out the best way to take the SG out while utilizing a minimal amount of energy since he couldn't draw on his full power with Kota being nearby and would have needed to conserve it anyways since he was fighting waves of Imperial forces as they continued to receive reinforcements.

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@w4nkdestroyer said:
@killbilly said:

@w4nkdestroyer: That garbage argument was already debunked over 2 years ago:

Shadow Guard Scaling

Recently, I've seen people using the following quote to place Ventress on or above Galen's level as of his mission to Nar Shaddaa:

In that particular instance, Bane and Sidious were foiled, but Sidious' basic aims remained. He sought to create a network of Force-wielding agents loyal only to him. None would be trained sufficiently to be a threat to Darth Bane's insistence that there only be two Sith, nor would they be a threat to Darth Sidious or his apprentice, Darth Vader. The most powerful of these agents were "only" Sith adepts but would appear almost as dark Jedi - the likes of Asajj Ventress, Mara Jade, or Inquisitor Valin Draco (in fact, a fallen Jedi). The lesser agents were reduced to still-deadly faceless minions. Among their ranks were the Shadow Guard.

-- The Official Starships And Vehicles Collection 63

The argument is as follows. Because a Shadow Guard gave Galen a "tough fight" and Ventress is above any Shadow Guard, she must also be above Galen at that point in the story, or at least on his level.

I'll be pointing out the flaws in this "reasoning" below.

1. The Shadow Guard being "tough work" for Galen in no way implies that they are equals.

"Stand up, General," the apprentice called over the racket. "They may be shooting at me right now, but they came here for you."Then he was forced to concentrate on the Imperials and their local allies. The mechanical "Uggernaughts" were heavily armored and armed both. His first priority was to knock them out. He pushed one onto its side with the Force and overloaded the electrical systems of the second, encouraging the stormtroopers in scatter. The smell of scorched Ugnaught fur made the cantina smell even worse. From outside, he could already hear the clanking of reinforcements."

-

As he fought his way toward the cantina's back door, he commed the Rogue Shadow and told Juno that he would need a rapid dust-off.

"Same place I dropped you off, I presume."

"Unless it gets too hot there." He brought the ceiling down on one of the troopers and telekinetically threw rubble at another. "Stay close and wait for my signal."

"Will do. Juno out."

He glanced behind him. Kota was finally moving, hunched like a stunned mine crab with his hands splayed before him. Hopefully the Force would be with Kota, because the apprentice knew with one look through the door that he would have his work cut out for him. There were at least two dozen Imperials in the storeroom, taking cover behind crates and barrels. A line of Uggernaughts promised to make short work of him if he so much as blinked.

-

A glimpse of a black-robed figure standing with the stormtroopers stopped him in his tracks. On sight of him, it tilted its black helmet and ignited a red lightsaber. The stormtroopers dropped to their knees and fired. The apprentice's blade came up of its own accord. Moving in extreme slow motion, as though the air were made of treacle, he deflected volley after volley from the blasters back at the troopers who fired them. They staggered and fell with smoke pouring from shoulder and neck joints. Their cries barely registered."

-

A bolt of Sith lightning shot from the hand not holding the staff. The apprentice grinned, having anticipated that tactic. He met the lightning bolt with one of his own. They collided in a spitting crackling ball of pure energy that danced crazily from side to side. The air filled with the sharp stink of ozone. The hooded assassin grunted and applied more effort. The apprentice met that effort and exceeded it. The ease with which he drove his assailant's lightning back surprised him.

-

A squad of troopers was waiting for him in the heat exchange, with three of the mobile Uggernaughts. He made short work of them, neither rushing recklessly in nor drawing the fight out, There was no point to be made here. They were simply inconveniences. He tossed the last of the Uggernaughts into the spinning blades of a fan four times as tall as he was. It exploded in a ball of flame, almost taking out its twin farther along the heat exchange. Out of the cloud of metal fragments leapt a second of the Emperor's Sith assassins, saber-staff upraised. The apprentice met him with a clash of sparks and lightning. Sith against Sith, they fought backward and forward through the broad, metal-lined space. This assassin was more proficient than the first, wiry and strong with a good reach and penchant for telekinetically throwing items from inside the apprentice's blind spot. He proved to be tough work until the apprentice wrenched the next giant fan off its gimbals and sent it spinning through the air. The black guard seemed so stunned by the sight of it that he didn't jump until it was too late. One spinning blade took his right leg off at the knee. From then, the fight was over.

-

Stepping out into the open air, he found himself facing another squad of troopers, two more of the Emperor's assassins, and no less than six Uggernaughts. Two transport balloons heavily weighted with supplies hung overhead, motors whirring to keep them on station, presumably waiting to land. Kota was nowhere in he seen. The apprentice bent his knees and adopted a fighting stance.

-- The Force Unleashed.

For context, a large number of Imperial forces have arrived in order to capture or kill Rahm Kota. Because Galen's own mission is reliant on acquiring Rahm Kota as an ally, he engages these forces.

Throughout this engagement the Imperials are constantly receiving reinforcements with Galen being aware of this fact. The Shadow Guards that is described to be "tough work" is one of four that Galen faces throughout the mission with the first being dealt with so easily that Galen is notably surprised. The second guard is "tough work" when compared to the previous Shadow Guard, yet is still dealt with before further reinforcements arrive. This does not make him close to Galen's level.

You're entire counterargument revolves around the idea that the "tough work" was in comparison to previous shadowguards, and anybody with a basic understanding of the English languages knows nothing substantiates that claim at all. The comparison made is this:

Not this:

He proved to be tough work compared to whom? There is no comparison made in the second quote, unlike the first quote where a distinct comparison is made between the two.

-

Furthermore besides Ventress scaling directly above Galen via Shadowguard scaling, she scales above early TCW Anakin, who was capable of moving a CIS dreadnought.

Despite that, early war Ventress was capable of pinning a stronger version of Anakin to the wall:

And early war Obi Wan is even more powerful than her:

-

So the line of scaling we get is:

Early War Obi Wan>>Early War Ventress>>Early War Anakin

Nevermind the fact that all 3 of these characters progress massively throughout the war as well.

Galen dealt with the Shadow Guard by casually decapitating them after exchanging a few lightsaber blows before reinforcements that Kota had warned were in the area and would be arriving soon could get there. If the phrase "tough work" isn't in the context of the other Shadow Guards or Imperial forces it's irrelevant because clearly the Shadow Guard didn't demonstrate parity simply because Galen allowed him to push an offensive for a time when he couldn't access his full power while likely trying to keep track of other forces in the area.

Please go and argue that a Shadow Guard is capable of replicating Galen's ISD feat in another thread based off of this comparison right now. I want to see you squirm like the toad you are.

The SG is able to replicate it via parity with Galen, which you have yet to refute. You even conceded your original argument which was based around the semantics of it being a "tough fight".

Funny, you're actually using a quote I dug up to argue your stance, lol. What's even better is I believe you're referring to the deleted scene from the TCW movie when you're referencing Ventress pinning early CW Anakin to a wall.

Whoever found it matters not to me, as for deleted scenes:

No Caption Provided

They are Canon. Feel free to disagree with a member of the Lucasfilm storyboard though.

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#38  Edited By KillBilly  Online
@w4nkdestroyer said:
@wolfrazer said:

@w4nkdestroyer: In melee combat, which would be the strong suit of the SG compared to The Force given how they are trained. That doesn't mean anything Force wise.

Force power and force aug have a direct correlation. Considering the SG's force aug was close enough to be considered a "tough fight", they have parity.

They don't always correlate. That's an assumption on YOUR part. Not only that, but Sidious didn't want Shadow Guards to be trained as a threat. He disdained lightsabers and lightsaber combat so it would make sense that Force user's that served the Empire would be encouraged to hone their augmentation as opposed to more overt Force abilities since Sidious seemed to put greater emphasis on them.

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@wolfrazer said:

@w4nkdestroyer: Yeah, a challenge with his skill + the fact the SG was using The Force to throw things at Galen which would distract him, the reach with his weapon is also another advantage. So there isn't a comparison to their Force power. So Galen isn't sub SG in The Force.

Galen is > SG in skill, the skill argument is baseless.

And if you're going to acknowledge Galen was distracted by the SG throwing things, at least acknowledge the SG was too:

The black guard seemed so stunned by the sight of it that he didn't jump until it was too late. One spinning blade took his right leg off at the knee. From then, the fight was over.

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#40  Edited By KillBilly  Online

@w4nkdestroyer said:
@wolfrazer said:

@w4nkdestroyer: Ooor could just be the SG was just that skilled which would make sense, again nothing to do with The Force.

Baseless speculation, the intent is clear that the SG was supposed to be a challenge.

I'm sure Starkiller is the more skilled one anyway considering he was Vader's apprentice since an infant.

What's ironic is that you don't realize that stating the Shadow Guard was equally powerful to Galen on the basis of their fight is also baseless speculation, even if they had fought completely evenly ( which they didn't ).

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@w4nkdestroyer said:
@wolfrazer said:

@w4nkdestroyer: In melee combat, which would be the strong suit of the SG compared to The Force given how they are trained. That doesn't mean anything Force wise.

Force power and force aug have a direct correlation. Considering the SG's force aug was close enough to be considered a "tough fight", they have parity.

They don't always correlate. That's an assumption on YOUR part.

Then why is does Sidious have better augmentation than Maul? Why does Anakin have better augmentation than Kenobi?

Of course you have to train for force aug as well, but it's pretty clear both the SG and SK were trained in force aug.

Not only that, but Sidious didn't want Shadow Guards to be trained as a threat. He disdained lightsabers and lightsaber combat so it would make sense that Force user's that served the Empire would be encouraged to hone their augmentation as opposed to more overt Force abilities.

Yup, and whatever training the SG's had, you bet Galen's training was higher grade by orders of magnitudes, being Vader's apprentice and all.

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@killbilly: The fact he brought up TCW related material at all doesn't matter, it doesn't mesh/fit with prior 08 works so it's all irrelevant. TCW is basically in another separate timeline.

This thread is relating to the overall legends continuity, not just pre 2008.

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@killbilly said:
@w4nkdestroyer said:
@wolfrazer said:

@w4nkdestroyer: You still didn't show that the SG was equal or superior to Galen in The Force. So he's not sub SG in The Force.

@wolfrazer said:

@w4nkdestroyer: That didn't prove that the Shadow Guard was superior in The Force. Nor that Galen was weaker, they were fighting mostly in melee combat with the SG using The Force to throw things at him. Galen then ended the fight by using The Force to throw a fan at him.

Them fighting backward and forward as well as the SG proving to be a tough fight for SK implies parity in the force.

No it doesn't for the reasons I've already stated:

@killbilly said:
@wolfrazer said:

@w4nkdestroyer: That didn't prove that the Shadow Guard was superior in The Force. Nor that Galen was weaker, they were fighting mostly in melee combat with the SG using The Force to throw things at him. Galen then ended the fight by using The Force to throw a fan at him.

He's trying to argue that them fighting "backward and forward" somehow implies parity when it's far more likely Galen was simply figuring out the best way to take the SG out while utilizing a minimal amount of energy since he couldn't draw on his full power with Kota being nearby and would have needed to conserve it anyways since he was fighting waves of Imperial forces as they continued to receive reinforcements.

And I responded to that:

Yeah, because hitting somebody with a giant fan is a lot more energy efficient than just outright ragdolling them with the force, of course assuming this gap exists in the first place.

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#44 KillBilly  Online

Galen dealt with the Shadow Guard by casually decapitating them after exchanging a few lightsaber blows before reinforcements that Kota had warned were in the area and would be arriving soon could get there. If the phrase "tough work" isn't in the context of the other Shadow Guards or Imperial forces it's irrelevant because clearly the Shadow Guard didn't demonstrate parity simply because Galen allowed him to push an offensive for a time when he couldn't access his full power while likely trying to keep track of other forces in the area.

Please go and argue that a Shadow Guard is capable of replicating Galen's ISD feat in another thread based off of this comparison right now. I want to see you squirm like the toad you are.

The SG is able to replicate it via parity with Galen, which you have yet to refute. You even conceded your original argument which was based around the semantics of it being a "tough fight".

Funny, you're actually using a quote I dug up to argue your stance, lol. What's even better is I believe you're referring to the deleted scene from the TCW movie when you're referencing Ventress pinning early CW Anakin to a wall.

Whoever found it matters not to me, as for deleted scenes:

No Caption Provided

They are Canon. Feel free to disagree with a member of the Lucasfilm storyboard though.

No, I pointed out that even assuming Galen was saying the Shadow Guard was a "tough fight" in general, that need not imply parity, especially given the circumstances ( that being Galen being unable to draw on his full power due to Kota as is noted by the novel and the fact that he's facing an opponent wielding an unfamiliar weapon while also likely needing to keep track of the nearby Imperial forces that are making their way towards the area and conserve energy to deal with them ).

-

"Generally should be." Since you're trying to make a concrete argument, could you please verify for me that the deleted scene in the TCW movie is canon? Or is that just your assumption?

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@killbilly said:
@w4nkdestroyer said:
@wolfrazer said:

@w4nkdestroyer: Ooor could just be the SG was just that skilled which would make sense, again nothing to do with The Force.

Baseless speculation, the intent is clear that the SG was supposed to be a challenge.

I'm sure Starkiller is the more skilled one anyway considering he was Vader's apprentice since an infant.

What's ironic is that you don't realize that stating the Shadow Guard was equally powerful to Galen on the basis of their fight is also baseless speculation, even if they had fought completely evenly ( which they didn't ).

> The SG gives Galen a tough fight stated as going back and forth until Galen blindsides him.

> Galen is vastly superior.

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#46  Edited By KillBilly  Online

@w4nkdestroyer said:
@killbilly said:
@w4nkdestroyer said:
@wolfrazer said:

@w4nkdestroyer: Ooor could just be the SG was just that skilled which would make sense, again nothing to do with The Force.

Baseless speculation, the intent is clear that the SG was supposed to be a challenge.

I'm sure Starkiller is the more skilled one anyway considering he was Vader's apprentice since an infant.

What's ironic is that you don't realize that stating the Shadow Guard was equally powerful to Galen on the basis of their fight is also baseless speculation, even if they had fought completely evenly ( which they didn't ).

> The SG is called a tough fight for Galen and stated as going back and forth before Galen blindsides him.

> Galen is superior.

> He's called "tough work" in the context of previously having defeated one of them with surprising ease. Even if the SG had been referenced as tough work in general does not imply he is an equal opponent.

> Galen could not draw on his full power due to Kota being nearby per the novel.

> Imperial reinforcements were streaming into the area which Galen was aware of.

> Galen likely would have been diverting focus towards keeping track of those forces and conserving his energy in order to be able to deal with them.

> Galen also was multi-tasking during the fight, both fending off the SG and gathering the energy necessary to send the blade spinning towards the SG.

> Your conclusion is correct. Galen is superior.

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#47  Edited By KillBilly  Online

@w4nkdestroyer said:
@killbilly said:
@w4nkdestroyer said:
@wolfrazer said:

@w4nkdestroyer: You still didn't show that the SG was equal or superior to Galen in The Force. So he's not sub SG in The Force.

@wolfrazer said:

@w4nkdestroyer: That didn't prove that the Shadow Guard was superior in The Force. Nor that Galen was weaker, they were fighting mostly in melee combat with the SG using The Force to throw things at him. Galen then ended the fight by using The Force to throw a fan at him.

Them fighting backward and forward as well as the SG proving to be a tough fight for SK implies parity in the force.

No it doesn't for the reasons I've already stated:

@killbilly said:
@wolfrazer said:

@w4nkdestroyer: That didn't prove that the Shadow Guard was superior in The Force. Nor that Galen was weaker, they were fighting mostly in melee combat with the SG using The Force to throw things at him. Galen then ended the fight by using The Force to throw a fan at him.

He's trying to argue that them fighting "backward and forward" somehow implies parity when it's far more likely Galen was simply figuring out the best way to take the SG out while utilizing a minimal amount of energy since he couldn't draw on his full power with Kota being nearby and would have needed to conserve it anyways since he was fighting waves of Imperial forces as they continued to receive reinforcements.

And I responded to that:

Yeah, because hitting somebody with a giant fan is a lot more energy efficient than just outright ragdolling them with the force, of course assuming this gap exists in the first place.

Affecting a physical object with telekinesis is far easier than tearing through the defenses of Force user with even a fraction of the power you're suggesting that SG possesses, yes.

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@w4nkdestroyer said:

Galen dealt with the Shadow Guard by casually decapitating them after exchanging a few lightsaber blows before reinforcements that Kota had warned were in the area and would be arriving soon could get there. If the phrase "tough work" isn't in the context of the other Shadow Guards or Imperial forces it's irrelevant because clearly the Shadow Guard didn't demonstrate parity simply because Galen allowed him to push an offensive for a time when he couldn't access his full power while likely trying to keep track of other forces in the area.

Please go and argue that a Shadow Guard is capable of replicating Galen's ISD feat in another thread based off of this comparison right now. I want to see you squirm like the toad you are.

The SG is able to replicate it via parity with Galen, which you have yet to refute. You even conceded your original argument which was based around the semantics of it being a "tough fight".

Funny, you're actually using a quote I dug up to argue your stance, lol. What's even better is I believe you're referring to the deleted scene from the TCW movie when you're referencing Ventress pinning early CW Anakin to a wall.

Whoever found it matters not to me, as for deleted scenes:

No Caption Provided

They are Canon. Feel free to disagree with a member of the Lucasfilm storyboard though.

No, I pointed out that even assuming Galen was saying the Shadow Guard was a "tough fight" in general, that need not imply parity, especially given the circumstances ( that being Galen being unable to draw on his full power due to Kota as is noted by the novel and the fact that he's facing an opponent wielding an unfamiliar weapon while also likely needing to keep track of the nearby Imperial forces that are making their way towards the area and conserve energy to deal with them ).

Forgive me, as I haven't read the book in a while, but why would the need to capture Kota hinder Galen's power?

Baseless speculation that he was wielding an unfamiliar weapon, in fact it's likely SK fought with them under his apprenticeship training with Vader. Though obviously that is baseless speculation as well.

Needing to keep track of nearby Imperials is also baseless, your grasping at straws.

"Generally should be." Since you're trying to make a concrete argument, could you please verify for me that the deleted scene in the TCW movie is canon? Or is that just your assumption?

Read the tweet, that's your concrete argument:

"We generally treat unreleased TCW as canon."

All cut TCW content is considered Canon (hence the generally). The TCW movie is part of TCW.

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@w4nkdestroyer said:
@killbilly said:
@w4nkdestroyer said:
@wolfrazer said:

@w4nkdestroyer: You still didn't show that the SG was equal or superior to Galen in The Force. So he's not sub SG in The Force.

@wolfrazer said:

@w4nkdestroyer: That didn't prove that the Shadow Guard was superior in The Force. Nor that Galen was weaker, they were fighting mostly in melee combat with the SG using The Force to throw things at him. Galen then ended the fight by using The Force to throw a fan at him.

Them fighting backward and forward as well as the SG proving to be a tough fight for SK implies parity in the force.

No it doesn't for the reasons I've already stated:

@killbilly said:
@wolfrazer said:

@w4nkdestroyer: That didn't prove that the Shadow Guard was superior in The Force. Nor that Galen was weaker, they were fighting mostly in melee combat with the SG using The Force to throw things at him. Galen then ended the fight by using The Force to throw a fan at him.

He's trying to argue that them fighting "backward and forward" somehow implies parity when it's far more likely Galen was simply figuring out the best way to take the SG out while utilizing a minimal amount of energy since he couldn't draw on his full power with Kota being nearby and would have needed to conserve it anyways since he was fighting waves of Imperial forces as they continued to receive reinforcements.

And I responded to that:

Yeah, because hitting somebody with a giant fan is a lot more energy efficient than just outright ragdolling them with the force, of course assuming this gap exists in the first place.

Affecting a physical object with telekinesis is far easier than tearing through the defenses of Force user with even a fraction of the power you're suggesting that SG possesses, yes.

Than I guess the gap between Kenobi and Maul or Dooku is bigger than the gap between Galen and a shadow guard, which again refutes your argument.

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@w4nkdestroyer said:
@killbilly said:
@w4nkdestroyer said:
@wolfrazer said:

@w4nkdestroyer: Ooor could just be the SG was just that skilled which would make sense, again nothing to do with The Force.

Baseless speculation, the intent is clear that the SG was supposed to be a challenge.

I'm sure Starkiller is the more skilled one anyway considering he was Vader's apprentice since an infant.

What's ironic is that you don't realize that stating the Shadow Guard was equally powerful to Galen on the basis of their fight is also baseless speculation, even if they had fought completely evenly ( which they didn't ).

> The SG is called a tough fight for Galen and stated as going back and forth before Galen blindsides him.

> Galen is superior.

> He's called "tough work" in the context of previously having defeated one of them with surprising ease. Even if the SG had been reference as tough work in general does not imply he is an equal opponent.

Nope, they were compared in this way:

This assassin was more proficient than the first, wiry and strong with a good reach and penchant for telekinetically throwing items from inside the apprentice's blind spot.

The author narrating the second guard was tough work has no correlation to the first guard.

> Galen could not draw on his full power due to Kota being nearby per the novel.

Source?

> Imperial reinforcements were streaming into the area which Galen was aware of.

Awesome, doesn't affect his ability at all.

> Galen likely would have been diverting focus towards keeping track of those forces and conserving his energy in order to be able to deal with them.

Force reserves/=force power.

> Galen also was multi-tasking during the fight, both fending off the SG and gathering the energy necessary to send the blade spinning towards the SG.

And the SG was throwing things at him as well, by that logic he was gathering/spending energy too.

> Your conclusion is correct. Galen is superior.

I wish somebody could explain how.