Where is the line Drawn?

For many years media has followed a basic set of tropes that people have accepting and yet torn about for years. In every group, there is usually a token Black guy and a token Woman.

Most people have voiced concern about that representation for a long time. But now with this current line up of Avengers it seems the rolls have been reversed partially. Now Iron Man is the token White guy in an ethnic group. I have seen people go crazy for this and in full support. And thats cool, Im all for diversity. But where is the line drawn?

An all White guy group with one Black guy, is apparently not ok.

An all ethnic group with only one White guy, is apparently ok.

A Captain America that black is ok. Fine I'm cool with that.

Female Wolverine. Odd choice, but I'll see where it goes.

But what if they suddenly made a White Black Panther or a Male Black Widow? If that did happen will people be accepting or will they be out raged?

Where is the line drawn?

The line is drawn when you take out the

@Manchine said:

The line is drawn when you take out the

But everyone on these chats state that they are ok with all these changes. If thats true then they shouldn't have a problem if Elektra was a man or if Wiccan suddenly became straight. If people are ok with characters changing one way, then they should be ok if some characters go the other.

NO ONE should have to explain the problem with a white Black Panther.. him being a black African is essential to character. Black Window.. idk if being a female is essential. The only way you could argue that is with the usual weak argument "that's what the character is suppose to be"

Now there's nothing wrong with a super hero group with multiple ethnicities/nationalities and one white person.

Having one person of color though? Come on now..The only line would be something like Black Panther being something besides a black African or anything in that category. Same thing with Thor.

@dbvse7: But in this day and Age. People are apparently stating that colour, gender or sexuality shouldn't matter to a hero and that can be replaced and switched at the flip of a coin.

A White Man could just as easily take over the throne of Wakanda and become the New Black Panther.

@captainrex: You're incredibly confused by this. Gender and race can change no problem as long as it doesn't alter the character himself. Making Black Panther White alters the very point of the character. Making Black Widow male doesn't, although The term Black Widow when used as a title implies female.

@havenless: I dont believe so. T'Challa is the King of Wakanda and assumed the role of the Black Panther that came with it. His little sister Shuri assumed the role of Queen and therefore became the Black Panther aswell.

All Im saying that a white man could challenge T'Challas claim to the throne, overthrow him and become the Black Panther. It doesn't rob T'Challa of anything from his character, much like Thor didn't have anything taken from his character when Jane took over.

At least thats what everyone is saying apparently. What makes this different?

@captainrex: The point is representation, a white Black Panther or a male Black Widow would be controversial because males, whites and white males have been plenty represented over the years in comics and are at no risk of that changing.

@black_wreath: While that may be true. But the reason I asked these questions is because I am wondering where the line is drawn. If Straight/White/Male characters can be changed that easily with everyone being so accepting of it. Then why can't Gay/Ethnic/Females be changed just as easily?

Am I wrong to think this?

@captainrex: No you're not wrong think it but the answer is simple, the vast majority of fictional characters in the west are straight white males it isn't really a big ask for the spotlight to be a little more balanced than it traditionally has been. Portraying characters of other races, genders, orientations as equally interesting/inspiring figures can go along way to creating a more accepting less exclusive society. Fiction has that power.

@black_wreath: But that doesn't answer the question. People have always complained about PC, SJW and Feminist pandering and some people are accepting of this change.

I want to know it people will be this accepting if the roles where reversed. A White Blue Marvel, A Straight Wiccan or a Male Valkyrie.

If Cap, Thor and Iceman can be changed and people say it's ok. Why can't they be changed the same way and people be just as OK with it?

@captainrex: Lets say you're a gay comic book reader who is a Wiccan fan. You might be a fan because as a hero you find him someone to look up to and also because you relate to his struggle concerning his sexuality. Then Marvel announces they're making him straight so he'll be more like the other heroes who are straight, are you going to accept that? More than likely the answer is hell no.

It would be like Robin Hood in reverse, stealing from the poor and giving to the rich.

That should be clear to you. No, people wouldn't accept it and for good reason too.

@black_wreath: I am so glad you brought that up. So how is this different from Iceman? Imagine all the straight fans of the world who have been a fan of Iceman and have followed his adventures and his struggles because he was different to other people. His struggle with the ladies, his struggle to find acceptance from his father (Much like Billy Elliot because he liked something different to other boys).

Imagine how every straight person who related to Iceman felt when Marvel turned him gay?

So its ok for a straight hero that people can relate to to turn gay. But it is not ok for a gay hero to turn straight?

For a world that is pushing the fight for equality, that doesn't sound very equal. In fact, it sounds hypocritical.

If Iceman can be gay, why can't Wiccan be straight? Cause as most people have said. "Just because his sexuality has changed, doesn't take away anything from the character. They are still the same, they just like a different gender."

There never is a line in these sorts of things. The line is whichever way the wind is blowing with people who act outraged over any of this stuff. Its just a way for people to release their own pent up frustrations with society and to project what they want to onto it.

@spambot: There must always be a line. Otherwise it just shows that everyone is a hypocrite.

That whole "white man challenging a Black man for ownership" wouldn't sit right.

I see where you're going but the Black Panther hereditary thing along with everything else you said.

Changing things like Thor was kind of acceptable because "Thor" became more of a title in this case then a different "person".

@dbvse7: Black Panther is a title thats held by the Ruler of Wakanda. If T'Challa lost his claim to the throne to a White Man, it is no different to Steve Rogers loosing the Super Soldier Serum and Thor loosing his Worthiness.

Everyone IS a hypocrite though.

@captainrex: The line is wherever you want it to be.

@manwhohaseverything: So I guess all these talks about equality and acceptance is just a myth. No one believes that we should all stand on equal ground.

Deep down, yes I think that is true. We should believe it, but we don't. Those professing to believe it the most, often believe it the least. I don't mean that to sound as negative as it does. I think it's trait of human nature to elevate oneself over others. I don't want to get into a long-winded debate on philosophy, but let's just say my view of human nature (my own included) is not very flattering. It's why we nit-pick over what is or is not acceptable even over something as trivial as the depiction of comic characters that aren't even real.

@manwhohaseverything: Thats what I was afraid of. This only proves my point, everyone says change is ok. But only if its a Straight/White/Males. Its sad that this is the world we live in.

You have just had an epiphany......welcome to the real world. There is no such thing as equality. Even if everyone was the same race....there would still be divisions among ethnicities and infighting. Multiculturalism is a joke.

Those are not the same my friend. Anyone that is worthy can hold it, anyone can take the super syrome.

Not just anyone can be the Black Panther because it's a cultural, and hereditary title. You would have to change EVERYTHING about the lore unless the writers just pulled something out their butt thats complete pis.

@dbvse7: Just Like Aaron rewrote the lore on Thor's hammer?

Here is where people seem not be well informed, Aaron/Marvel forced the execution to sell a female version of Thor but when you are worthy of Mjolnir you only get Thor's power ("Whosoever holds this hammer, if he be worthy, shall possess the power of Thor.") you don't become just like Thor with blonde hair and Asgardian speech etc... Beta Ray Bill? Steve/Cap in Fear itself? Loki in Axis?

You next question will be about Eric/Norvell/Olson, but they all were merged with Thor by Odin, were exposed to Thor essence unlike Jane she just pick the hammer... and finally Donald Blake was created by Odin to teach humility to Thor.

There is no difference here. Black Panther can just as easily be a White guy, just like Captain America can be black and Thor can be chick. According to the writers of Marvel and and Every other government official these days.

But I will thank you for proving my point. A White Black Panther would clearly upset you, well thats how the rest of use feel about the other changes. Are you still going to stand there and tell me change is good?

Obviously people would be outraged if Black Panther suddenly became a White man, and for several good reasons.

The most prominent of which would be the destruction of the character deeply rooted in African culture (specifically East African Culture). T'Challa is for all intents and purposes a historical landmark for Black comic book characters and Black comic book fans. He was a huge figure at the time of his introduction. Why? Because he was a Black protagonist that wasn't riddled with stereotypes or written in a pandering way towards the reader, at a time in America when Blacks were still struggling to get represented positively in media. By turning Black Panther White(as in T'Challa himself) writers would basically disregard everything he stood for both in and out of the comics to try their hand at being "innovative". The same goes for Storm and Static Shock. It just wouldnt make sense.

@juiceboks: So how is that different from when DC turned Wally West Black?

And I never said turn T'Challa White. I said what if a White character replaced T'Challa as Black Panther. If it can be done to Captain America, why not Panther?

@juiceboks: it could be easily made to make sense in comic continuity, just as it was made to "make sense" with Jane Foster being Thor. This is all science fantasy stuff. A good writer could make it "make sense" and have it be credible, and stay true to the mythos. What the problem is here is the affect it might have on the African American community. (Not that I necessarily have an issue with this). However, the point being made is this: The whole "Why should it matter?" idea about changing existing long time heroes to suit new sociological ideologies is bunk. It's ONLY okay if a straight, white, male is changed. Not even saying that there's (necessarily) anything wrong with that. I'd just like someone to admit it.

@captainrex: Wally West doesn't have the historical significance or the racial presence that T'Challa does. His race has nothing to do with his values, his origin story, or his publication history. He could be Samoan and it wouldnt make a lick of difference.

That's different. While it would be weirdly out of place again given the heavy East African cultural influences, a fill in for T'Challa wouldn't be all that big a deal. Steel was Superman for a while, it could be like that. Changing T'Challa himself is where the problems lie.

Female black Widow's are the dominant gender. They kill the males. A male Black Widow wouldn't make any sense.

I agree with the generation butthurt.

@heroup2112: Jane just has the title of Thor, Thor Odinson still exists and even that has made fans upset. I don't think a new version of a character should be made JUST to pander to an interest group, but sometimes a new take on a classic character works well (Miles Morales). It just depends on how it's handled.

@juiceboks: Wally West has always been portrayed in Comics and television as a White, Red head. Then he is suddenly turned black, straight out of the blue. How is that any less racially insensitive than turning Static Shock White or Luke Cage White?

Black Panther is a title that can be passed down from one person to the next. Taking away T'Challas throne is no different than taking away Thors hammer or even Iron Mans company. T'Challa would still be T'Challa, even if he's not the Black Panther anymore. And guess what, there are White people living in Africa and one White Character could just as easily become the New Black Panther. Heck why not even a South African Black Panther, Wouldn't that be cool?

After all an Asian Hulk is cool, a Black Captain America is cool and a Pakistani Ms Marvel is cool. Why would a White Black Panther be any less cool?

@captainrex: Obviously what I'm saying isn't registering with you, so I'll leave you to your thread.

Question is silly and I'll just answer it with Beet the Vandel buster

Black Panther being white is nothing like those.. the very name has historical relevance to reason why the character exist.

You can't compare it to any of those because there's no historical, cultural relevance to those comparison.

It's like having a black Marvel Thor. Black Panther is more than just a title. The Black Panther being white for any reason would be a huge slap in the face to myself and other African Amercan/Blacks.

And now you know how the rest of use feel. This is the point I am making, everyone is so ok with a White person changing, but if a black person changes, its insulting.

I hate threads like these.

I mean, disregarding the whole Falcon becoming Captain America thing was totally understandable and completely awesome and I haven't seen anyone who has actually read through it straight up hate it, the whole "what if Black Panther became white" argument is so silly.

@captainrex: I mean yes and no..

I have no problem with character changes as long as what your changing about the character isn't relevant to who/what that character is in connection to what that character does.

So I don't see Cap being Black the same as BP being white. Hell if Nick Fury was back to white I wouldn't care.

From what I see Flash or Cap being white has nothing to do with being a Super Soilder and Hero who now fights with a Super Powered group of Heros to protect their home.

Or the Flash being part of a accident that gave him his powers to then be part of a Superhero team to protect the planet.

@keenko: Its not just Black Panther (He's just an example) But any Ethnic character in comics. Wally West the third Flash, was depicted for decades as a White, Red Head. But then the New 52 cam around and he was just swapped to a black kid and everyone was just accepting of it.

But what if a well known black character such as Static Shock, Monica Rambeau, Luke Cage, Cyborg or Vixen where suddenly changed to a White person. Would that be fare?

@dbvse7: You keep saying that but Black Panther may have been a well known African hero. But not all African people are Black.

Nothing will be taken from T'Challa if his throne was taken from him. He's still a genius, he's still highly skilled and he can still be a member of the Avengers, Ultimates, whatever. Steve was still an elective leader of the Avengers Unity Devision. T'Challa will still be the same character you know and love. But it will be a white man that will be filling the role as Black Panther.

Argue as much as you want. The reality is that the situations are the same. T'Challa can still be himself when not Black Panther just as Steve Rogers can still be himself when not Captain America.

The only argument you have is that you are insulted by the idea. And thats great, Its good to feel that because thats what a comic fan is supposed to feel if one of there favourite heroes is altered in a drastic way.

In Cuba.

"But not all African people are Black." Not the point, the point is there are no white people relevant to Wakanda.

A white person CAN'T be The Black Panther because its a hereditary title as well. So unless there was someone who was not of the royal bloodline and became The Black Panther then no.. not happening. A White person being the black panther would complete bs.

There's nothing to argue because being The Black Panther and Being Captain America aren't the same no matter how much you try make them SEEM equal in worth.

The argument isn't that it's insulting. The argument is that it's nonsense.

Where is the line drawn? Around cartoon characters

Black Panther being white or anything else would be a HUGE joke.. nothing more, nothing else. End of story.

@captainrex:

Wally West the third Flash, was depicted for centuries as a White, Red Head. But then the New 52 cam around and he was just swapped to a black kid and everyone was just accepting of it.

It's a different universe, a lot of stuff changed. Superman parents died when he was young, Diana is Zeus's daughter, how the League met is completely different, Tim Drake was never Robin. What is it about Wally West race that make his change anymore drastic then the other?

And like most changes no just accepts it there are still thousands of people crying for post crisis universe to come back, and people make threads just to b*tch and moan about anything different from the post 52 universe all the time.

@thatguywithheadphones: But I am not bi**ing. I am merely asking why 1 thing is ok and the other is not.

If Iceman can be gay. Why can't Wiccan be straight?

If Thor can be a woman. Why can't Valkyrie be a Man?

If Captain America can be Black. Why can't Black Panther be white?

These are all perfectly reasonable and fair questions. And if you are all so upset about it. Then it's clear that it does bother you if a diverse character is altered. And is that fair to everyone else?

Also making BP a white person is such hate/race bait.

The only way I'd accept that is if T'Challa has a white baby or somewhere down the line a white baby is born within the family line.

@captainrex: Christ, do you have your posts premade or something, because that was not a response to what I wrote.