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#201 Posted by Green_Tea (10344 posts) - - Show Bio

@prezilla: I'm not acting like he's real, just that some people overestimate his knowledge of martial arts.

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#202 Posted by MasterSkywalker (3609 posts) - - Show Bio
No Caption Provided

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#203 Posted by Elijah_C_Washington (4618 posts) - - Show Bio

@elijah_c_washington what are your thoughts on the above post?

Not that bad. Deadshot and Deathstroke had been fighting each other for five straight days before that happened. It's still a low showing but it comes in the same issue in which this happened:

I ain't even mad.
I ain't even mad.

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#204 Posted by deactivated-5a89ca5697052 (8063 posts) - - Show Bio
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#205 Posted by force_echo (1283 posts) - - Show Bio

@elijah_c_washington: Yeah, but Slade, at least before Rebirth, had nigh inexhaustible endurance/stamina. I mean, I could see Batman taking out Deadshot easily, but beating down Slade like that? Also, the comic implies that Deathstroke and Deadshot are literally perfectly evenly matched with each other (even in close combat). Which seems like a low showing for Slade in general.

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#207 Posted by Prezilla (674 posts) - - Show Bio

Combination of bad writing and the fact that he fought for 5 days.

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#208 Posted by midnightdragon18 (9867 posts) - - Show Bio
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From this

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#209 Posted by BatmanPlusJay (3689 posts) - - Show Bio

@zetsumoto: He's a comic book character. They could make him master and bend the laws of physics if they want to. The point I'm getting at is that he did master every martial art. Regardless if you want to believe it or not.

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#210 Posted by MyLittleFascist (31150 posts) - - Show Bio

@zetsumoto: He's a comic book character. They could make him master and bend the laws of physics if they want to. The point I'm getting at is that he did master every martial art. Regardless if you want to believe it or not.

The point isn't whether or not he did it. The point is whether or there's actually any real benefit in doing so. There isn't. It's almost useless as a feat. At best it can show how fast of a learner he is.

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#212 Posted by BatmanPlusJay (3689 posts) - - Show Bio

@zetsumoto: Well when you combine that with the fact that he created his own unique style of fighting by combining martial arts, it's pretty useful.

It's good to have both quantity *and* quality if you can.

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#213 Edited by MyLittleFascist (31150 posts) - - Show Bio

@batmanplusjay said:

@zetsumoto: Well when you combine that with the fact that he created his own unique style of fighting by combining martial arts, it's pretty useful.

It's good to have both quantity *and* quality if you can.

The human body has a limited range of motion. All martial arts will have a large degree of overlap. Learning more than 4 martial arts is completely redundant and will not bring anything new to the table.

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#214 Edited by Elijah_C_Washington (4618 posts) - - Show Bio

Eh, I could and probably should say more about this, since their fight under King was a thing that happened. If any users still support Batman in this fight, time to speak up; in particular, if you, @batmanplusjay, would like to go over this again, now's your chance.

@force_echo said:

@elijah_c_washington: Yeah, but Slade, at least before Rebirth, had nigh inexhaustible endurance/stamina. I mean, I could see Batman taking out Deadshot easily, but beating down Slade like that? Also, the comic implies that Deathstroke and Deadshot are literally perfectly evenly matched with each other (even in close combat). Which seems like a low showing for Slade in general.

Yea, Deathstroke has great endurance but that's attributable mainly if not entirely to his healing factor, which can be and has been taxed before. As for Deadshot and Deathstroke being evenly matched, it was well established in the beginning of New Suicide Squad, the first arc of Deathstroke's 2014-2016 series and issue 11 of the very same, that Slade is far and away the better man, and this was also evident in all of the two's pre-Flashpoint fights. Moreover, it's unclear as to where this fight takes place in Deathstroke's continuity, he wasn't using any of his established gear-sets and there was no mention of his enhancements anywhere in the issue. Lastly, King is the type of writer that's had Batman restrain Solomon Grundy, solo an army of hundreds immediately after resetting his broken back, defeat Bane with a headbutt and most outrageously,it took Eobard Thawne a full 60 seconds to bring him down in The Button:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3

Additionally, King also wrote Robin: Son of Batman (2015-) #4 in which Slade had a long, drawn out fight with Damian Wayne which is even admissible as PIS all things considered, to the point of Slade being written explicitly out of character when Damian Wayne successfully paid him off; this is something that isn't generally possible with Deathstroke, who puts more stock into his word and the contract rather than money itself:

"Then I'll kill you twice."

Overall, it's still pretty safe to say Deathstroke beats down Batman, whether you're discussing post-Crisis, post-Flashpoint or composite versions. Slade beat him in Deathstroke the Terminator (1991-) #7 which took placebefore he was a confirmed metahuman, he put him down twice while dicking around in Detective Comics (1937-) #710 before Batman had to take Slade off guard when he was in the middle of a long-range gunfight and knocked him out with his own rifle, which is still inconsistent with his standard durability. My personal favorite fight between the two was in Deathstroke (2014-)#5, wherein Slade was physically weakened, slowed mentally and hindered skill-wise by way of being unaccustomed to fighting with two eyes right off the bat:

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Deathstroke was under such a heavy de-amp that even with the amount of pride he has, he was saying he sucked. It ended up being a hard-fought match on behalf of both of them which is worth something, but Slade was still blatantly outfighting Batman by the end of it:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3

As soon as he had a single chance, Deathstroke turned the whole fight around on a dime, punching Bruce so hard he skidded across the room then catching up to him, grabbing him by the throat and embedding him partway into a wall before he could react. Harley then unexpectedly hit Deathstroke over the head with the same giant mallet she's used to obliterate skulls in her own comics, at the same time as Batman landed a full force uppercut on him; this reduced Slade's vision to, as he said with his own words, a series of blurs, but that didn't stop him from using Bruce's own cape against him, forcing him to resort to straight up stalling. And yes, as some users have pointed out Deathstroke was, at times, actively using Batman's morals against him, but both Batman and Deathstroke are known to use psychology offensively and in my opinion this goes to show that, at least in the Prime Earth continuity, Slade is better at it.

Lastly, it's also worth noting that even though he still wasn't quite up to snuff with his New Earth self, Batman in this instance was making use of a whole lot more raw skill than he has on a consistent throughout the whole of the post-Flashpoint continuity, wherein he most regularly relies on physicals and/or gear. Also, Deathstroke's feats are, as far as I'm concerned, of a higher quality in general, and get as specific as Slade stomping characters Bruce has in turn lost to, like Bronze Tiger who I brought up on this thread months ago. At the end of day, I think it's pretty clear that Deathstroke is Batman's superior.

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#215 Edited by force_echo (1283 posts) - - Show Bio

@elijah_c_washington: He was enhanced in that instance. In Rebirth they peg Deathstroke's enhancements at around the time Superman went public.

Also you're using a fight where Deathstroke clearly explicitly states "I'm being outsmarted. Outfought. And Outmatched." Kind of odd. He even says that he only gets the drop on Bats because he was reluctant to take an opening.

In any case, I'm not interested in this debate. I don't know enough about Deathstroke either way as I find him an exceedingly dull character and try to avoid his stories whenever I can.

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#216 Posted by Elijah_C_Washington (4618 posts) - - Show Bio

@force_echo: If you don't want to debate this then fine, but I was never arguing with you in the first place; I was trying only to inform you.

He was enhanced in that instance. In Rebirth they peg Deathstroke's enhancements at around the time Superman went public.

Deathstroke's Rebirth series has not yet gone into detail about the origin of his powers, but I could've missed something and am willing to rephrase some stuff if you could prove this with a citation or scan. Moreover, when did Superman go public? The War of Jokes Riddles takes place directly after Zero Year meaning it does, in fact, take place before the formation of the Justice League, and I don't know how long Superman had been operating publicly before that.

Also you're using a fight where Deathstroke clearly explicitly states "I'm being outsmarted. Outfought. And Outmatched." Kind of odd. He even says that he only gets the drop on Bats because he was reluctant to take an opening.

Yes, he also clearly explicitly states how and in what ways he was weakened, which is why he said all of those things in the first place. At any rate, taking advantage of Batman's morals is a legitimate skill feat. Honestly, Batman was only doing as well as he did because of Deathstroke's impairments, and yet Slade capitalizing on an aspect of his mindset and turning the whole fight around in just that one instant is supposed to take away from the feat? I don't see how, and it's not like Harley didn't intervene and help Bruce out after that, before Slade gained the upper-hand once again.

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#217 Posted by BatmanPlusJay (3689 posts) - - Show Bio

@zetsumoto: "Learning any more than 4 marital arts is redundant and doesn't bring anything new to the table"

That's a subjective point. Learning all martial arts gives you more options, maybe if Batman only specialized in taekwondo, boxing, kickboxing, and muy Thai, what happens if he encounters a juijitsu user? It's different scenarios for everything. For example there's complicated fighting styles out there like krav maga, extremely up close and personal, knowing these things and having knowledge on them is extremely useful. Better yet if someone creates a whole new martial art out of combining these things. Imagine krav maga mixed with taekwondo and juijitsu? You have a monster. Combine that with a martial art that exposes weak spots in the body like pressure points and you have a demon.

I think your opinion on the matter is extremely false but opinions are opinions.

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#218 Edited by MyLittleFascist (31150 posts) - - Show Bio

@batmanplusjay said:

@zetsumoto: "Learning any more than 4 marital arts is redundant and doesn't bring anything new to the table"

That's a subjective point. Learning all martial arts gives you more options, maybe if Batman only specialized in taekwondo, boxing, kickboxing, and muy Thai, what happens if he encounters a juijitsu user? It's different scenarios for everything. For example there's complicated fighting styles out there like krav maga, extremely up close and personal, knowing these things and having knowledge on them is extremely useful. Better yet if someone creates a whole new martial art out of combining these things. Imagine krav maga mixed with taekwondo and juijitsu? You have a monster. Combine that with a martial art that exposes weak spots in the body like pressure points and you have a demon.

I think your opinion on the matter is extremely false but opinions are opinions.

The human body has a limited range of possible motions. All properly formed martial arts styles will a heavy amount of overlap. That's why any time you have a combat sports tournament with limited restrictions, all fight styles have a tendency to blend together into that "MMA" style brawl.

Your example is extremely misleading. You purposefully selected a single striking focused art along with 3 combat sports that are also strictly striking based and compared it to a grappling art. People don't do that. When people do MMA properly they understand the importance of learning striking, grappling, groundwork/wrestling, and so forth. If someone is properly trained in a single complete art, they would also be versed in each of these core categories.

Oh, and for the record. Krav Maga is ALREADY a mix of various striking arts and jujitsu.

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#219 Posted by BatmanPlusJay (3689 posts) - - Show Bio

@elijah_c_washington: I really really do want to argue, but I don't want to rely on respect threads. I'd take on a death stroke vs Batman challenge any day.

I could easily argue using it, but nah. I wanna get into the comics of Batman. I've read Batman comics before but it wasn't consistent. So as someone freshly starting to read actual Batman comics regularly, where should I start? At the start of rebirth(I'll probably end up starting there anyway)? Cause obviously I don't wanna start from WAAAY back.

But I'll probably argue with you some other time.

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#220 Posted by BatmanPlusJay (3689 posts) - - Show Bio

@zetsumoto: You fail to realise Batman doesn't exist, and obviously learning all those martial arts and mastering them and creating his own unique style out of them, obviously puts him above everyone else in skill. And he is damn sure above anyone who's only mastered 4 martial arts.

Krav maga is a mixture but it's not the whole package. Someone who's learning krav maga wouldn't be as good as someone who's learning juijitsu in juijitsu, even if they worked in the same amount of time. To have the whole package you have more at your disposal.

Krav maga is like, boxing, muy Thai, disarming skills, and jujitsu in one. Lots of knees and elbows and lots of ground work. I'm not a fighting expert(I only have a little history in boxing, muy Thai and taekwondo) I'm just going off of what I see in krav maga, and those are the 4 things I see in it.

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#221 Posted by Elijah_C_Washington (4618 posts) - - Show Bio

@batmanplusjay: I would start reading a bunch of Grant Morrison stuff, since he pretty much writes the most skilled version of Batman. A lot of good stuff can be found in his JLA run, including defeating Prometheus in a rematch.

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#222 Edited by Morpheus_ (34236 posts) - - Show Bio

When researching a character, I find that the most direct approach is usually the best: read everything.

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#223 Edited by Black_Arrow (10218 posts) - - Show Bio


Additionally, King also wrote Robin: Son of Batman (2015-) #4 in which Slade had a long, drawn out fight with Damian Wayne which is even admissible as PIS all things considered, to the point of Slade being written explicitly out of character when Damian Wayne successfully paid him off; this is something that isn't generally possible with Deathstroke, who puts more stock into his word and the contract rather than money itself:

No he didn't, the issue was written by Patrick Gleason, and that's not what happens in the story. Slade failed a contract because Nobody was supposed to help him but he couldn't because Robin killed him. Nobody's daughter took her father's base of operations and Slade tracked her through that but he was searching for the actual Nobody. Deathstroke wanted her to pay the debt of his father but Robin convinced him, both through money and reminding Slade of his daughter, to let Maya go. But there wasn't a contract on her or anything like that, It was Slade wanting payback.

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#224 Posted by Elijah_C_Washington (4618 posts) - - Show Bio

@black_arrow: Excuse me then, it's been awhile since I read it.

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#225 Edited by Gracetrack (4624 posts) - - Show Bio

People often ignore the fact that their first encounter (the only time Deathstroke has decisively beaten him) was in Deathstroke's own series, written by the same gentleman who created the character. They also neglect to mention that immediately after that first encounter Slade was so taxed from fighting Batman that he was bested by a common street thug a few pages later.

Let's not pretend that these two haven't always been pretty evenly matched, even if Slade has the edge in the physicals department.

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#226 Posted by BatmanPlusJay (3689 posts) - - Show Bio

@gracetrack: Exactly. That's what I've been saying for a long time now. They'll always be evenly matched to me, but I just don't think Slade has as big of an advantage over Batman as he's portrayed sometimes simply because he's got permanent steroids.

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#227 Posted by the_wspanialy (3770 posts) - - Show Bio

@thordinson: Where are these scans from? Beceuse even I, being Batman fan, find it rather... far-fetched. What were the circumstances?

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#228 Posted by MasterSkywalker (3609 posts) - - Show Bio

@thordinson: Where are these scans from? Beceuse even I, being Batman fan, find it rather... far-fetched. What were the circumstances?

War of Jokes and Riddles. I forgot which issue 25 i think.

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#229 Posted by StormShadow_X (16226 posts) - - Show Bio

He should. A good enough fighter with far superior physicals and gears. Common sense who should win.

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#230 Posted by BatmanPlusJay (3689 posts) - - Show Bio

@stormshadow_x: Superior physicals? Ok. Gear? Nahhh you're trying to skate on super extra crazy thin ice now

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#231 Posted by jackiplier (273 posts) - - Show Bio

Why can't we just accept the fact that they both can beat each other under different circumstances...? Or people just HAVE to say Deathstroke will beat up Batman in any cases no matter what?

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#232 Edited by The_Magister (13192 posts) - - Show Bio

Slade is just better.

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#233 Posted by StormShadow_X (16226 posts) - - Show Bio

@stormshadow_x: Superior physicals? Ok. Gear? Nahhh you're trying to skate on super extra crazy thin ice now

How? Honestly compare they're gear for handiling other street levelers. Batman has more high tech gear but not only is not of it lethal, he wouldn't use it in a lethal way. Because Sword and guns aren't high tech don't make them any less effective.

His "best" gear is usually prep gear for special villains like Clayface.

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#234 Edited by StormShadow_X (16226 posts) - - Show Bio

@jackiplier said:

Why can't we just accept the fact that they both can beat each other under different circumstances...? Or people just HAVE to say Deathstroke will beat up Batman in any cases no matter what?

I'm personally not saying that but if the two met in a random encounter or Slade was sent after Batman for a contract, Slade would most probably win as long as Bruce isn't given extreme plot armor.

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#235 Posted by BatmanPlusJay (3689 posts) - - Show Bio

@stormshadow_x: Guns are ineffective against Batman though. How often does he ever get shot? That's why Slade wouldn't even bother using guns. Batman's tech isn't lethal, but its more convenient for him. Batman's gear is several times better than Slade's. Most of Slade's arsenal wouldn't even work against Batman.

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#236 Posted by BatmanPlusJay (3689 posts) - - Show Bio

@stormshadow_x: Batman doesn't need plot armor to beat Slade in a random encounter though. I don't know why people think Slade has a phenomenal lead against Batman. He doesn't.

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#237 Edited by TheDeathstroke (2925 posts) - - Show Bio

@batmanplusjay: Batman does need plot armor to beat him though.. at least in a straight up random encounter he does.

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#238 Posted by StormShadow_X (16226 posts) - - Show Bio

@stormshadow_x: Guns are ineffective against Batman though. How often does he ever get shot? That's why Slade wouldn't even bother using guns. Batman's tech isn't lethal, but its more convenient for him. Batman's gear is several times better than Slade's. Most of Slade's arsenal wouldn't even work against Batman.

Guns are ineffective? The only characters he has ever gone against that have used guns are fodder and couldn't aim if they're life depended on it. Deadshot is the only example and even than we they fight Batman's plot armor kicks in.

So you're telling me batman is sword proof? Because a quick cut from slade and he dies.

@stormshadow_x: Batman doesn't need plot armor to beat Slade in a random encounter though. I don't know why people think Slade has a phenomenal lead against Batman. He doesn't.

Because he does. Have you read any thing slade has done post crisis or even New 52/Rebirth?

Batman's not beating someone physically superior in everyway, just as good as tactian, a pretty good fighter, and has lethal ways on winning( Something bruce doesn't)

Tell me exactly why you think Bruce could beat Deathstroke without the help of plot armor.

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#239 Posted by BatmanPlusJay (3689 posts) - - Show Bio

@thedeathstroke: In a random encounter it goes both ways. In their first fight the fight was extremely close. Do you think DS will constantly get that lucky each random encounter? That each random encounter he'll always win in almost just as bad a condition as Batman? No. A fight that just shows that the fight could end either way. DS barely made it out of that first fight himself, to say he'd make it out of any other random encounter so luckily doesn't even make sense.

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#240 Edited by TheDeathstroke (2925 posts) - - Show Bio

@batmanplusjay said:

@thedeathstroke: In a random encounter it goes both ways. In their first fight the fight was extremely close. Do you think DS will constantly get that lucky each random encounter? That each random encounter he'll always win in almost just as bad a condition as Batman? No. A fight that just shows that the fight could end either way. DS barely made it out of that first fight himself, to say he'd make it out of any other random encounter so luckily doesn't even make sense.

No, their first fight wasn't as close as you make it out to be. Deathstroke was in a position to kill batman, but realized he had other things to do then he turned his back on him. Then Batman proceeded to strike him and THAT is what injured Slade, but he could have ended the fight before that and have been completely fine. Then in the 2015-2016 fight between the two, Batman couldn't even defeat Slade in a weakened state, so no, they are not equals in any sort of way without prep.

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#241 Edited by BatmanPlusJay (3689 posts) - - Show Bio

@stormshadow_x: The whole thing about deadshot missing because plot is incorrect. Deadshot misses because of Batman's evasive skills. Combine that with his agility and acrobat and you're trying to shoot a fly with a bow n arrow. And all you did was reinforce my argument, if Deadshot can't even hit batman, and not even 20 average thugs can do it even if they tried to get lucky with stray bullets, what makes you think DS can? You're just reinforcing my argument that guns against Batman is useless.

And where did you get a sword from? Where have I mentioned or even implied that a sword was useless? Obviously it isn't useless it's a melee weapon. I'm talking about as far as his other lethal gear goes(guns, grenades, etc) hence the reason why I said "MOST" of his gear is useless. Batman's got smoke bombs, flash bangs, baterangs(which are more efficient than bullets for him since he could his a moving target easier), a grapple hook, all these things to simply make his job easier rather than having an Uzi or rifle to miss all 99 shots.

I'm just now getting into rebirth. And Batman could win because his gadgets are more convenient and give him more tactical advantages on how he uses them, like how he grappled DS and swung him into the wall in their first fight. Batman wins because his skill is superb, regardless if DS's skill is "good enough", it obviously isn't because when trading blows Batman's usually got the upper hand. And Batman could win because as I explained in my last comment, Deathstroke doesn't win by a mile. He barely wins by an inch.

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#242 Edited by BatmanPlusJay (3689 posts) - - Show Bio

@thedeathstroke:

Are you talking about when batman fought DS but Harley interfered? Because Batman was whooping Slade that fight tbh. He was overwhelming him when the fight first started, but then in the midst of battle Batman started to talk to Harley because Harley tricked him, which let DS get in a few punches, but after that Batman went right back to beating DS down, but then Harley interfered yet again.

Batman had the upper hand that fight and had it continued without Harley's interference, DS would have taken a major L. Batman is more skilled and is in good enough physical shape along with his suit to help him out to beat DS. DS wouldn't win every random encounter. Not even most

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#243 Posted by TheDeathstroke (2925 posts) - - Show Bio

@thedeathstroke:

Are you talking about when batman fought DS but Harley interfered? Because Batman was whooping Slade that fight tbh. He was overwhelming him when the fight first started, but then in the midst of battle Batman started to talk to Harley because Harley tricked him, which let DS get in a few punches, but after that Batman went right back to beating DS down, but then Harley interfered yet again.

Batman had the upper hand that fight and had it continued without Harley's interference, DS would have taken a major L. Batman is more skilled and is in good enough physical shape along with his suit to help him out to beat DS. DS wouldn't win every random encounter. Not even

Like I said, Slade was in a weakened state. If they are so even like you say then Batman would have destroyed him in that fight, which wasn't even the case. A healthy Slade is beating a healthy batman in a random encounter 9/10.

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#244 Edited by BatmanPlusJay (3689 posts) - - Show Bio

@thedeathstroke: And as I said, Batman was bodying slade, then Harley took Batman's attention which gave Slade a slight upper hand, then after batman regained focus he started to body Slade again. Then Harley intervened *again.* Hadn't Harley intervened, Batman would have gave DS an L already. And DS wasn't weakened. He had a second eye, which was just uncomfortable for him at first. He wasn't weakened in any way shape or form.

Slade wins 5/10 random encounters.

Case closed.

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#245 Edited by TheDeathstroke (2925 posts) - - Show Bio

@batmanplusjay said:

@thedeathstroke: And as I said, Batman was bodying slade, then Harley took Batman's attention which gave Slade a slight upper hand, then after batman regained focus he started to body Slade again. Then Harley intervened *again.* Hadn't Harley intervened, Batman would have gave DS an L already. And DS wasn't weakened. He had a second eye, which was just uncomfortable for him at first. He wasn't weakened in any way shape or form.

Slade wins 5/10 random encounters.

Case closed.

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Just accept that your precious batman has someone greater then him. I rest my case, you can't show me anything that says batman is on the same level as DS. Slade wins 9/10 times in a random encounter.

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#247 Edited by BatmanPlusJay (3689 posts) - - Show Bio

@thedeathstroke: Amazing. You stole the small part of the fight where Harley has Batman's attention because she tricked him, so obviously, as I've said a million times already, DS had a small upperhand here. But as the fight progressed Batman started to body DS again and in the beginning.

I can't show anything on mobile. All I can do is explain it. Just like when Batman very easily KO'd Deathstroke with his own rifle. Or when Batman sucker punched DS (with a kick actually) he knocked him unconscious. Or recently he bodied DS along with DeadShot at the same time. Or in their first fight, afterwards, DS explains that Batman would have easily won that fight if not for his strength and after DS left he got bodied by some random street thug. Plenty of moments. Plenty of'em.

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#248 Posted by High_Noon (690 posts) - - Show Bio

@batmanplusjay: wtf are you talking about with Deadshot missing due to Bruce's skill? It's been confirmed multiple times Floyd subconsciously pulls his shots when fighting bruce.

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#249 Posted by Morpheus_ (34236 posts) - - Show Bio

Invasion of the bat crybabies.

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#250 Posted by TheDeathstroke (2925 posts) - - Show Bio

@thedeathstroke: Amazing. You stole the small part of the fight where Harley has Batman's attention because she tricked him, so obviously, as I've said a million times already, DS had a small upperhand here. But as the fight progressed Batman started to body DS again and in the beginning.

I can't show anything on mobile. All I can do is explain it. Just like when Batman very easily KO'd Deathstroke with his own rifle. Or when Batman sucker punched DS (with a kick actually) he knocked him unconscious. Or recently he bodied DS along with DeadShot at the same time. Or in their first fight, afterwards, DS explains that Batman would have easily won that fight if not for his strength and after DS left he got bodied by some random street thug. Plenty of moments. Plenty of'em.

For Deathstroke to have an upper hand at all in a weakened state proves they are not equal, at all. You obviously didn't read up on the fight if you keep saying Harley had batman's attention. Batman replied to her once during the entire fight once and your gonna say that? Lol. They aren't equals, this is a pointless thread.