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#101 Posted by BatmanPlusJay (3686 posts) - - Show Bio

@digitalshooter9:

"However this isn't entirely the case. Slade does have an advantage in physicals but that advantage is easily countered by Batman's skill advantage. In fact, the skill gap between the two is larger than the physicals gap. Physicals are not the reason Slade beats Bruce."

My point exactly.

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#102 Edited by Elijah_C_Washington (4618 posts) - - Show Bio

@jedixman said:

@batmanplusjay said:

@jedixman: ?? What do you mean by that? Personally I've came across many confident DS debaters.

I have not; most just rely on the same scans and don't put nearly as much effort into analysis. Also, honestly, my bar for what qualifies as a confident / competent debater is probably higher.

Thanks for real.

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#103 Posted by BatmanPlusJay (3686 posts) - - Show Bio

@elijah_c_washington:

"it's that you're arguing against a character you have so little knowledge on, you're unaware of one of his most basic abilities"

Really? Ok.. "DS has enhanced vision, strength, speed, agility, and durability"...."YOU FORGOT REFLEXES! You're so ignorant to DS!! I can't stand it!"

....Really, kid?

"This doesn't mean he was Batman's equal in skill. Bruce completely blows past him in experience, and he is also consistently displayed as over confident, with Batman even commenting on it. Compare that to Deathstroke, who has a full decade's worth of experience on Batman, and keeps an incredibly level-head in combat."

Batman used his over confidence against him. But as displayed in a comic scan you showed, DS was apparently not taking Batman seriously and was fighting out of boredom. Bat man couldn't use his confidence against him? Again, PIS. Also PIS that DS could apparently "not try" against Batman and still win. That rooftop battle where DS was almost beaten half to death was the most accurate. Because honestly like I said and as the comics prove(by comparison), Batmans skill outweighs DSs by a mile. And because of that gap, DS should have very little to no time to even retreat or run back. Again, the Arkham Origins trailer battle for them was also accurate. You call my scans PIS like all of yours isn't. All of yours are. You just admitted Batman could exploit someone's over confidence

But in no fight with slade has the writer made him do that. Especially that overly PIS one where he was "holding back" to a point of boredom. The one that was over the top to the point of no return was DS going through a fan so fast a CONSTANT LASER moving at the speed of light couldn't even get through it. A GROWN ASS MAN BRO! XD A grown solid 6 foot man managed to do that before a fan sliced him. But nah, it's deathstroke. Of course it isn't PIS.

"Who is also fodder. My claim that Batman doesn't consistently use pressure and nerve strikes on established fighters still holds."

No. It doesn't hold. Cassandra is an established fighter. Trains under Shiva and Bruce. And has been for years. She's established. Green arrow is established as you admit. He is as established as deathstroke. The only reason DS can beat him is because of his physical condition. If it came down to pure skill and DS lost his enhancements for a day, he'd lose against green arrow. Or stalemate him. There's many many fighters out there who surpass slade in pure skill. Only thing saving him is his enhancements.

But to debunk your claim, Bat man mimics Lady Shiva's signature finishing technique the lethal Leopard Blow in order to take out the last and most formidable of the ninja masters that Lady Shiva sent after Bruce in order to help retrain him in the martial arts (in her own deadly way) since he lost his physical prowess when Bane broke his back. However, it turns out that he's modified the killer technique into a non-lethal strike which knocks the ninja master out instead of killing him. He does this to fool Lady Shiva into believing that he's willing to kill so he could pass her final test (Batman: Legends of the Dark Knight #62 and Robin v2 #8).

"Source?"

Sorry. Typo. Meant to say it's an estimate considering his size and strength. NOW CALM DOWN and don't bash me for being human. Ok? Ok. I know how heated you get when someone misses or leaves out even 1 thing.

"Not only did Brute's strength render Batman completely helpless, but he couldn't knock him out with all of those punches, despite a mere double punch from Red Hood and Robin accomplishing just that"

Wrong. It's obvious he wanted them to finish him off. Batman could have done it himself. But he stopped himself in the middle of the fight to call Robin after thinking Brute would be down longer. And he was wrong and Brute got the attack off.

"Regardless of the real life science, it had to be momentum."

No. It was Batman himself. He did draw blood on someone who took on those people and he did flip them. Whether toy want to believe it or not is on you. I am prepared for this to be ignored. Lol

"and the one Slade threw could've literally only been the former"

Yeah, the piano the size of his body that Batman could break with a roundhouse kick and throw it 5 times over if he wanted to. It's made of wood. A big wood/metal box. Wood and metal means NOTHING to DS and Batman. So idek what your point is with that scan.

Batman also caught and held up a golden sarcophagus on his back then catching and holding a second one (while very impressively still holding up the first) with his cable line supporting the weight of well over 2 tons (one Egyptian statue of this type in the real world weighs 1 ton). What makes this even more impressive is that Batman has to wait (the time is unknown) until the first security guard (who Batman is standing over protecting) wakes up before he could drop the first Sarcophagus off his back and then wait until the second guard is clear from danger before dropping the other Sarcophagus. In addition, he's still amazingly able to keep his mind active by deducing that something is wrong with Man-Bat while having to support both Sarcophagi at the same time (Gotham After Midnight #2). 1 on each arm. I'm sure you'll say Batman holding 2 tons isn't impressive and that DS has done better, so here's this:

Despite having to free himself from a straitjacket and benchpress a coffin lid through 600 pounds of loose soil that's suffocating him, Bats is able to break free from his own grave (literally). All this while not being in top shape to begin with due to having not rested for days, been subjected to drugs, and Joker's new Venom without time to properly recover (Batman #681).

This scan is kinda famous, I assume you don't need to see it. And what makes this scan incredible is the mental state he's in is vicious, it's Jokers venom, and he's still able to keep his head on tight and get out ofofstraight jacket underground. All while also out of shape. Slade may very well be good athletically, but Again writers yet missing out on vital pieces of Batmans skills and abilities, don't have Batman mess with Slade psychologically. Because like I said, PIS.

Every time there's a fight between Batman and slade, they never have Batman use abilities and skills he has against him. They make him as mindless as Brute. You call this "crying" because you've got no counter argument. You know I'm right. I'm calling out the bias PIS writing and all you've got to say is "well.....stop crying!!"? Just shows you're trapped in a dead end in that argument. And you try to "shit-talk" your way out.

And here, I'm gonna add in something about steel before you try to use the "steel door" thing against me.

Batman impressively frees himself from the high tech steel restraints wrapped around his body through brute strength and willpower despite being mentally tortured by The Anchoress as well (Batman Annual v2 #2)

Moving on.

"No, you didn't. You made up an excuse to disregard their previous fights:"

I didn't "make up" anything. And it isn't an excuse if it's true. Want proof? I'd be happy to give it to you.Those are all things Batman would have and should have considered since he's a battle genius. I called out the BS in the writing and this is all you have to say.

"You're complaining (I.E. crying) that Batman didn't fight Slade completely differently, in using evasive maneuvers and agility to give him a win. Disregarding that there's zero reason why that would work on Slade to begin with, that's not how comic fights go in general, which is what I stated. Specifically, when's the last time Batman did that with an actual fighter? Bane? No. Bronze Tiger? No. Nightwing? Nope. Red Hood? Still no. Seriously, Batman and Deathstroke don't even have their guard up in the vast majority of their fights, and that goes for a lot, lot more characters."

No guard? You just contradicting yourself. Earlier in your comment by saying "Batman blocked or dodged most of Philos punches". Close, realistic battles are the best ones. People love those. Who told you that back and forth, poorly designed fights were "cool"? And here's some "guard" and realistic, close battles from Batman.. Since you can't recall any. Here more guard(martial arts):

Batman vs Lady Shiva (Batman #427)

Batman vs Bronze Tiger(stalemate) (Detective Comics #485)

Batman vs David Cain (Batman #605)

Batman vs Priest (Legends of the Dark Knight #136)

And... I could go on. Need more...?

"My Bronze Tiger example is still way more concrete than you're Philo Zeiss one, and you didn't even comment on it. Same goes for my argument about Slade's healing, the stealth bit, and so on."

What do I have to say about his healing? Ok. He heals more. Great. And his stealth, I forgot about, but if you want we could debate that too since Batman IS the better one when it comes to stealth.

And I just addressed your Bronze Tiger thing. Proving Batman went against him to in their second round and came out just fine.

"No, you're spamming from respect threads, and in doing so using some of the most downright PIS and out-of-context instances available on the entire internet."

Nah, my scans don't come from respect threads.. XD They really don't. You can even check my recent activity. Lol. And PIS? PIS?? Please don't make Mr call out all the PIS crap you've shown me.. XD

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#104 Posted by Guru_Crack (11568 posts) - - Show Bio

@batmanplusjay: Batman always get's beat first time by physically stronger foes, Deathstroke and Bane being prime examples.

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#105 Posted by JediXMan (42175 posts) - - Show Bio

@elijah_c_washington:

It's true. I'm shocked that I haven't seen you debate until now - if I have, then it slipped my mind. Were / are you a Green Arrow debater? If so, then I remember you, and my original analysis is still true.

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#106 Edited by DigitalShooter9 (3112 posts) - - Show Bio
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This explains it all. The only reason Slade beats Bruce is because of his looser morals.

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#107 Posted by BatmanPlusJay (3686 posts) - - Show Bio
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#108 Edited by BatmanPlusJay (3686 posts) - - Show Bio

@outside_85: You don't necessarily understand Batman. He may be human. But his feats are astronomically above what humans can do. If you want, I'll post some feats right now of him taking on multiple metas and coming out on top. He 1 shotted Gorilla Grog too. Point is you say "the regular things he does" and you're wrong because almost nothing Batman does is "regular". On the best martial artist list, he's number 1 from mastering every type of style ever made and creating his own unique style out of them. His brains is one of the best. Outsmarting enemies left and right. He even lifted and flipped Grundy with 1 hand despite him charging at Batman. Also fought for 26 hours straight. Took ok GL, aquaman, and Martian manhunter at the same time and neutralizing them. And trust me, I could go on. If you want scans for EACH of these, ask me and I'll give them to you. Deathstroke can be as physically fit as he wants. But Batmans skill out does DSs so much to a point that DS physique shouldn't even matter atm because Batman should be kicking DS across floors due to his superior skill(superior by a mile). Not to mention he has the equipment to also neutralize him(or at least stun him) and his weapons.

"Occasionally he runs into someone who can outbrawn him, but usually his brain is enough to come up with a counter if allowed a bit of preperation. Then when he moves on to JL stuff, he usually just comes prepared for the enemy when he makes his mark or lets the team buy him the time needed to come up with something"

Again, you're wrong. Batman thinks up strategies and tactics on the fly. During a battle. He doesn't always need to "I NEED PREP FROM THE BATCAVE" to outsmart or outbeat people. Based on the information he sees *during* the fight, he will come up with ways to take the enemy out. Stack the odds in his favor. Again, if you want proof(scans, or issues) just ask. I'd be happy to show them. Not sure why the myth that Batman needs prep to beat everyone he comes across, he's not that weak, why people assume Batman needs prep 100% of the time or even 50% of the time is beyond me. If he needed prep to beat almost everyone he comes across, Batman would have been dead decades ago.

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#109 Posted by DigitalShooter9 (3112 posts) - - Show Bio

@batmanplusjay: Yes. Killing is off the table for Batman so he holds back considerably when he fights.

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#110 Posted by Titanbreaker (1299 posts) - - Show Bio

@outside_85: He 1 shotted Gorilla Grog too. Point is you say "the regular things he does" and you're wrong because almost nothing Batman does is "regular". On the best martial artist list, he's number 1 from mastering every type of style ever made and creating his own unique style out of them. His brains is one of the best. Outsmarting enemies left and right. He even lifted and flipped Grundy with 1 hand despite him charging at Batman. Also fought for 26 hours straight. Took ok GL, aquaman, and Martian manhunter at the same time and neutralizing them. And trust me, I could go on.

So Slade tagging Kid Flash and Flash is PIS along with many of his other beat downs of other Superheroes but we are allowed to count Batman beating Martian Manhunter, Gl and Aquaman at the same time?

The hypocrisisy is unreal with you.

I also frown on the Gordd feat as that ape has proven to be able to take hundreds of lightning fast hits from Flash and not even flinch.

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#111 Edited by BatmanPlusJay (3686 posts) - - Show Bio

@titanbreaker: I never said what Batman did wasn't PIS. I literally said my point was that damn near all of his feats are far from "regular". Even the non-PIS ones. I.e. Batman vs Wonder woman. So idek what you're talking about with all this "hypocrisy!!" stuff.

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#112 Posted by Titanbreaker (1299 posts) - - Show Bio

@titanbreaker: I never said what Batman did wasn't PIS. I literally said my point was that damn near all of his feats are far from "regular". Even the non-PIS ones. I.e. Batman vs Wonder woman.

Batman vs. Wonder Woman isn't PIS?

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#113 Edited by BatmanPlusJay (3686 posts) - - Show Bio

@titanbreaker: No because it was a fight of skill. And of course Batman out does her in skill, he was tagging her but she eventually won because she used her strength to her advantage. Then their next fight, Batman either came out on top or stalemate, forgot which one. Lol like I said, point is Batman CAN take on people like WW and win. Her speed isn't much special so she uses her combat skills and strength to make up for her lack of super speed. Batman vs WW I don't think is as lopsided as people think. The only thing people consider when pitting Batman against superheroes is "Batman is human. They're superhuman. Batman loses because they're super" and completely ignoring his own strength, skills, speed, abilities and his smarts to outsmart people who out do him physically.

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#114 Edited by foxerdes (9860 posts) - - Show Bio
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#115 Posted by BatmanPlusJay (3686 posts) - - Show Bio

@foxerdes: Lol thanks. Wait you're team DS right?

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#116 Posted by foxerdes (9860 posts) - - Show Bio
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#117 Edited by BatmanPlusJay (3686 posts) - - Show Bio

@foxerdes: Oh. So are you saying you think this was a good debate? Or are you saying "Ok. I like your persistence, but I only value good debates and this isn't one."?

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#118 Posted by foxerdes (9860 posts) - - Show Bio

@batmanplusjay: It's a decent debate and you are persistent since this thread have 110+ posts.

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#119 Posted by Elijah_C_Washington (4618 posts) - - Show Bio

I'll get back to this.

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#120 Posted by Elijah_C_Washington (4618 posts) - - Show Bio

@jedixman said:

@elijah_c_washington:

It's true. I'm shocked that I haven't seen you debate until now - if I have, then it slipped my mind. Were / are you a Green Arrow debater? If so, then I remember you, and my original analysis is still true.

I've argued for Ollie a couple of times, but I'm far from being an expert on him or anything like that.

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#121 Posted by Elijah_C_Washington (4618 posts) - - Show Bio

@batmanplusjay: And so it continues.

Really? Ok.. "DS has enhanced vision, strength, speed, agility, and durability"...."YOU FORGOT REFLEXES! You're so ignorant to DS!! I can't stand it!"

Slade's reflexes get a ridiculous amount of focus in his books. Much more than everything else you mentioned. Not knowing he even has them but arguing so adamantly against him does show a significant degree of ignorance of the character.

Batman used his over confidence against him. But as displayed in a comic scan you showed, DS was apparently not taking Batman seriously and was fighting out of boredom. Bat man couldn't use his confidence against him? Again, PIS.

Maybe because Slade is overall more skilled and physically imposing than Zeiss? Moreover, Bruce did eventually defeat Deathstroke in that issue by catching him by surprise and knocking him out while he was busy talking. You sort of mentioned that in the OP.

Also PIS that DS could apparently "not try" against Batman and still win.

He did try, he just wasn't fighting as smart as he normally does. He was also amnesiac at the time, meaning he lacked the experience of his normal self, which is probably why he kept underestimated Bruce's resilience. And no, it's not PIS.

That rooftop battle where DS was almost beaten half to death was the most accurate. Because honestly like I said and as the comics prove(by comparison), Batmans skill outweighs DSs by a mile.

This is and has been your opinion. I'm not trying to change it.

You call my scans PIS like all of yours isn't. All of yours are.

Shitty excuse to use PIS scans and instances (like Batman Confidential #53, lmao), especially considering it isn't true.

But in no fight with slade has the writer made him do that. Especially that overly PIS one where he was "holding back" to a point of boredom. The one that was over the top to the point of no return was DS going through a fan so fast a CONSTANT LASER moving at the speed of light couldn't even get through it.

There's no reason to say that the Wildebeests' projectiles travel at light speed. They were never even stated to be lasers. However, a dying Slade did deflect an actual laser off of his sword in The New Titans #90:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

But even this isn't a PIS, FTL showing as there's no proof he reacted to the laser after it was fired.

Cassandra is an established fighter. Trains under Shiva and Bruce. And has been for years. She's established.

She would eventually be, but not in the very first time she and Bruce encountered each other in Detective Comics Vol. 1 #734, which is what you're referencing.

Green arrow is established as you admit. He is as established as deathstroke. The only reason DS can beat him is because of his physical condition. If it came down to pure skill and DS lost his enhancements for a day, he'd lose against green arrow. Or stalemate him.

This is an entirely different topic, but you're wrong on all accounts. Green Arrow isn't as skilled as Slade, and the physical gap is even bigger. Landing a pressure point on Ollie doesn't come close to meaning Bruce can land one on Slade.

But to debunk your claim, Bat man mimics Lady Shiva's signature finishing technique the lethal Leopard Blow in order to take out the last and most formidable of the ninja masters that Lady Shiva sent after Bruce in order to help retrain him in the martial arts (in her own deadly way) since he lost his physical prowess when Bane broke his back. However, it turns out that he's modified the killer technique into a non-lethal strike which knocks the ninja master out instead of killing him. He does this to fool Lady Shiva into believing that he's willing to kill so he could pass her final test (Batman: Legends of the Dark Knight #62 and Robin v2 #8).

Does the ninja master have any actual feats? Does he even have an actual name? He sounds like complete, unestablished fodder. Him being comparable to Deathstroke is laughable. Since you're paraphrasing a respect thread that doesn't include anything the ninja actually did, I'm going to assume I'm correct in my analysis.

Sorry. Typo. Meant to say it's an estimate considering his size and strength. NOW CALM DOWN and don't bash me for being human. Ok? Ok. I know how heated you get when someone misses or leaves out even 1 thing.

Alright.

Wrong. It's obvious he wanted them to finish him off. Batman could have done it himself. But he stopped himself in the middle of the fight to call Robin after thinking Brute would be down longer. And he was wrong and Brute got the attack off.

Sure.

No. It was Batman himself. He did draw blood on someone who took on those people and he did flip them. Whether toy want to believe it or not is on you. I am prepared for this to be ignored. Lol

No, Batman can't draw blood on someone like that. Neither can Deathstroke. Both have, but those showings are PIS. I could site Slade drawing blood on both Donna Troy and Wonder Woman, but they're unusable showings. Batman and Slade just aren't that strong.

Yeah, the piano the size of his body that Batman could break with a roundhouse kick and throw it 5 times over if he wanted to. It's made of wood. A big wood/metal box. Wood and metal means NOTHING to DS and Batman. So idek what your point is with that scan.

The point is that it's better than the Grundy showing by virtue of actually being measurable. I'm not going to bother with your idea of how easily Batman could do the exact same.

Batman also caught and held up a golden sarcophagus on his back then catching and holding a second one (while very impressively still holding up the first) with his cable line supporting the weight of well over 2 tons (one Egyptian statue of this type in the real world weighs 1 ton). What makes this even more impressive is that Batman has to wait (the time is unknown) until the first security guard (who Batman is standing over protecting) wakes up before he could drop the first Sarcophagus off his back and then wait until the second guard is clear from danger before dropping the other Sarcophagus. In addition, he's still amazingly able to keep his mind active by deducing that something is wrong with Man-Bat while having to support both Sarcophagi at the same time (Gotham After Midnight #2). 1 on each arm. I'm sure you'll say Batman holding 2 tons isn't impressive and that DS has done better

It's actually really impressive. It's on par with Slade's high-end, in fact, which therein becomes a matter of consistency. As to not dwell on that, between a weakened and injured Slade lifting a boulder off of himself with absolutely no leverage in Deathstroke Vol. 3 #2, lifting and throwing one of Gorilla Grodd's super gorillas in Birds of Prey Vol. 1 #24, and of course the fact that Slade blatantly out-matched Bruce in a contest of strength in Deathstroke the Terminator #7, it doesn't change anything.

Despite having to free himself from a straitjacket and benchpress a coffin lid through 600 pounds of loose soil that's suffocating him, Bats is able to break free from his own grave (literally). All this while not being in top shape to begin with due to having not rested for days, been subjected to drugs, and Joker's new Venom without time to properly recover (Batman #681).

This is just an impressive, albeit less so version of the aforementioned boulder feat:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

The fact that the writer was trying to depict Slade at 25% only adds to my point. Though I have to admit, the similarities are striking.

Every time there's a fight between Batman and slade, they never have Batman use abilities and skills he has against him. They make him as mindless as Brute. You call this "crying" because you've got no counter argument.

I did have a counterargument. You have yet to concretely address it.

Batman impressively frees himself from the high tech steel restraints wrapped around his body through brute strength and willpower despite being mentally tortured by The Anchoress as well (Batman Annual v2 #2)

Even before his superhuman strength evened out, Slade was snapping his "steel retaining straps" into several pieces in Deathstroke the Terminator #1. He's done it while both weakened and wounded as well.

No guard? You just contradicting yourself. Earlier in your comment by saying "Batman blocked or dodged most of Philos punches".

No, I didn't contradicting myself. I said he doesn't even have his guard up in the vast majority of his fights, which is true.

Close, realistic battles are the best ones. People love those. Who told you that back and forth, poorly designed fights were "cool"? And here's some "guard" and realistic, close battles from Batman.. Since you can't recall any. Here more guard(martial arts):

  1. Regardless of what you think people love, the norm is still the norm.
  2. I didn't use the word 'guard' as an adjective. I said Bruce and Slade don't typically have their guard up in their fights.
  3. I can recall a number on my own, but those are the minority.

Batman vs Lady Shiva (Batman #427)

The only thing he did in that which could be considered fighting smart was getting rid of Shiva's weapon, which he has done in his fights against Slade. He blocked a few strikes, but it makes sense that he can't do that against Slade as he is faster and stronger than both Shiva and Bruce. Otherwise, it was a punch-fest

Batman vs Bronze Tiger(stalemate) (Detective Comics #485)

The smartest thing he did was roll Tiggs, which he's done to Slade.

Batman vs David Cain (Batman #605)

Which was just another punch-fest.

Batman vs Priest (Legends of the Dark Knight #136)

A fistfight which ended with Priest trying to tackle him, and instead brushing through his cape and flying out a window. A smart move on Bruce's end, but Slade's never been dumb enough in their fights to try to just tackle him through a window or anything like that.

And I just addressed your Bronze Tiger thing. Proving Batman went against him to in their second round and came out just fine.

Two different Turners. Regardless, in their latest fight it was apparent that Bronze Tiger had improved since they last met. Bruce even told him that he "got faster." So no, you haven't concretely addressed it.

Nah, my scans don't come from respect threads.. XD They really don't. You can even check my recent activity. Lol.

This is just a lie. You've been getting your scans, issue numbers, and have even been paraphrasing the Batman Capability Website. I can draw on several specific examples, such as:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4

This is all pretty clear cut, so unless you're going to nitpick and say that the site isn't technically a respect thread or try to make me believe that you just coincidentally wrote what the site says word for word, you've just been found out.

And PIS? PIS?? Please don't make Mr call out all the PIS crap you've shown me.. XD

XD

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#122 Posted by BatmanPlusJay (3686 posts) - - Show Bio

@elijah_c_washington:

"This is all pretty clear cut, so unless you're going to nitpick and say that the site isn't technically a respect thread or try to make me believe that you just coincidentally wrote what the site says word for word, you've just been found out."

I was just reading through your argument a bit. And I wanna disclose I didn't know a capabilities website was a respect "thread". I knew it was a respect website but not a respect "thread". Thought a thread were only things found on forums when you start topics. Like my thread here. And I know a bunch of people know about that website. Just wanna clarify that up before I'm called out as a liar or something.

Moving on

"Moreover, Bruce did eventually defeat Deathstroke in that issue by catching him by surprise and knocking him out while he was busy talking"

1. That wasn't the fight I was talking about in my OP.

2. So.. DS throws an attack that's lethal. As shown in one of your last posts where he says "that's a vlowth at should have killed him. But not for the Dark Knight". But that attack didn't knock out nor case Batman. But here Batman kicks DS across the face with a non lethal kick and puts DS to sleep. This here should be enough to show you Batmans and DS physique aren't that far apart. Here's like an illustration of what I mean:

DS Physique > Batmans Physique

Batmans skill >>> DS skill.

Point is Batmans skill gap difference is far greater than their physical gaps. You can call it an opinion all you want. Until I can see some skill feats from DS where he's using pure skill, and is actually faring well against people even like Green Arrow, he is lower. And he's not lower because I say so, but because 1. Batman has more feats and more impressive feats and 2. Batmans history with martial arts and even creating his own unique styles out of them is something that would and should honestly be outweighing Slades physicals by a lot. Unless of course DS went under some crazy training to be on Shiva and Batmans level in martial arts, then sure, they're equal in skill. But until that happens, Batman takes skill by a landslide and should be taking It in their fights because of it.

"which is probably why he kept underestimated Bruce's resilience. And no, it's not PIS."

Yeah, it is PIS. Being overly confident makes you overly reckless. Which would in turn make you fall into traps more. You just admitted he underestimated Batman and its just blatantly obvious he is too overly confident about it. Batman should have gotten that win of easily due to all the points you said if DS losing his mind or whatever you said. Batman should have taken this by a landslide. His skill outweighs the physique by a mile.

"Shitty excuse to use PIS scans and instances (like Batman Confidential #53, lmao), especially considering it isn't true."

Doesn't take away all the PIS scans you've thrown at me.

"But even this isn't a PIS, FTL showing as there's no proof he reacted to the laser after it was fired."

But there's also no proof it was an accident. The writers were implying he reacted to it after it was fired because in the scan it doesn't even show a pic of DS noticing the gun about to fire before hand and reacting accordingly. What else can you assume? That he accidentally moved his sword in a position that saved his life?

"Green Arrow isn't as skilled as Slade"

Says who?

"Does the ninja master have any actual feats? He sounds like a fodder"

Because he doesn't have feats and a name he is automatically a low level fodder henchman who isn't an established fighter? That's some broken logic. It's obvious he is an established fighter, even more so than DS because of his training history with Shiva. You know, that female martial artist who is most likely #2 on the most skilled board? He is said to be the best of them all in skill and that is why Shiva sent him. Why would she send 1 man after the Dark Knight if she didn't think he was at least capable? 1 man. After the DARK KNIGHT. Not many street levelers can do that. Other than Slade, no street leveler can just 1v1 Batman(and maybe Shiva but Batman beat her already. He is more skilled and more fit or the two) without taking a lot more losses than wins.

"Sure."

What? If you have a counter to that statement then just say it. Lol.

"No, Batman can't draw blood on someone like that."

Batman didn't. He made the floor do it.

"I'm not going to bother with your idea of how easily Batman could do the exact same."

What, he can though. XD He held open the mouth of an enhanced crocodile with most likely the bite force estimate of around 10,000 lbs. And that's considering a regular crocodile has the bite force of 3,700 lbs. And he held a ton on each of his arms while distracted. Unless a grand piano is 2 tons, or even close to it, Batman can launch it If he wanted to. Tbh anything ranging from 0-about 900 or 1000 lbs, Batman can ragdoll it. Bot saying DS can't I'm just proving my point Batman can ragdoll a grand piano.

"Slade blatantly out-matched Bruce in a contest of strength in Deathstroke the Terminator #7, it doesn't change anything"

That isn't and never was my argument. I already went over this in this comment.

"Regardless of what you think people love, the norm is still the norm."

Right back at you. Your claims aren't holy bro.

"Which was just another punch-fest."

This is to also both of your "the smartest thing he did is" statements. By guard I meant dodging, blocking, and basically showcases of skill. Which all of these had. Not just what the DS vs Batman rooftop-fight had. Which was Batman getting hits off first, then DS making an amazing comeback out of nowhere.

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#123 Edited by Elijah_C_Washington (4618 posts) - - Show Bio

@batmanplusjay: You gotta be ******* kidding me. My post deleted itself, and I had already lost my progress due to hard-to-explain reasons prior to that. That type of shit sucks so goddamn bad.

I was just reading through your argument a bit. And I wanna disclose I didn't know a capabilities website was a respect "thread". I knew it was a respect website but not a respect "thread". Thought a thread were only things found on forums when you start topics. Like my thread here. And I know a bunch of people know about that website. Just wanna clarify that up before I'm called out as a liar or something.

Called it, and called it. The distinction doesn't matter, by the way. Whatever you want to call it, it serves the exact same purpose as a respect thread, with all the lack of context to boot. Furthermore, you now admitting that that's where you're getting everything you've been using not only hurts your credibility, but lets me in on the entirety of your feat pool.

1. That wasn't the fight I was talking about in my OP.

Yeah, yeah it was:

And Batman beat DS 1 time:

http://m.imgur.com/1q6iF1g

Knocked him out with his own rifle.

OP

I was talking about the very same issue, Detective Comics Vol. 1 #710.

2. So.. DS throws an attack that's lethal. As shown in one of your last posts where he says "that's a vlowth at should have killed him. But not for the Dark Knight". But that attack didn't knock out nor case Batman. But here Batman kicks DS across the face with a non lethal kick and puts DS to sleep. This here should be enough to show you Batmans and DS physique aren't that far apart. Here's like an illustration of what I mean:

Now you're talking about Batman/Superman Annual #1, which was unmentioned in the OP, and also non-canon.

1. Batman has more feats and more impressive feats

I don't have any qualms with that.

2. Batmans history with martial arts and even creating his own unique styles out of them is something that would and should honestly be outweighing Slades physicals by a lot.

Well, it doesn't. Never has. Again, what Slade lacks in technical skill, he more than makes up for in overall fighting ability. His senses, awareness, physicals, weapons, and skill make him a significantly greater fighter, or more of a combative threat as @stormshadow_x put it.

Yeah, it is PIS. Being overly confident makes you overly reckless. Which would in turn make you fall into traps more. You just admitted he underestimated Batman and its just blatantly obvious he is too overly confident about it. Batman should have gotten that win of easily due to all the points you said if DS losing his mind or whatever you said.

You're calling it PIS based off of context I provided that you can't even recall. Batman did win, but not after being dominated in hand-to-hand three times over. Bruce did eventually take advantage of being underestimated. He even won because of it. He engaged in hand-to-hand repeatedly because he had no other option. Deathstroke had a shot lined up and Bruce had to make sure he didn't take it, in the most immediate fashion.

His skill outweighs the physique by a mile.

As soon as that isn't contradicted by everything in the comics, I'll concede. Until then, I've already proven that the 'myth' that Deathstroke has defeated Batman more times than not is absolutely true, and you have made no headway in proving otherwise.

I mean, in Detective Comics #710, it was made obvious that Slade's physical advantage is greater than anything Batman had on his end. Even Robin was scared for Bruce, because of the fact that Slade "might be" a metahuman. In fact, this was even evident in their first fight. Deathstroke had praised Batman's skill, but followed it up with "But you're just an ordinary man", listing being stronger and faster as two of the reasons he'd win, and then did. The exact notion that you've been pushing this entire time is completely opposite of the one that's been flat out stated in the comics.

Doesn't take away all the PIS scans you've thrown at me.

Red herring.

But there's also no proof it was an accident. The writers were implying he reacted to it after it was fired because in the scan it doesn't even show a pic of DS noticing the gun about to fire before hand and reacting accordingly. What else can you assume? That he accidentally moved his sword in a position that saved his life?

Oh, so we agree that the fan showing is legitimate. Anyway, "no proof for this means this other unsubstantiated thing is what happened" isn't a viable argument. But I'm patient, so I'll entertain it. In that case, who said anything about it being an accident? Slade was capable of outpacing the shooter's reflexes, and that's all there is to it. He didn't deflect the laser on accident and he didn't outpace the laser itself. I can't even decide which notion is more ridiculous.

I'm expecting that you'll actually agree with my take on the showing. I think the fact that you didn't think of it first wonderfully highlights just how subjective all of your reasoning really is. "Moving on"

Says who?

Me, obviously, but that's also not how this works. You made the claim, it's up to you to prove it - not for me to prove false. However, I'll say right now that Slade's technical skill showings are decisively better than Ollie's. I say this as the best of the Vine's go-to Deathstroke guy and a pretty huge Green Arrow fan respectively. If you try to argue otherwise against me of all people, you're going down pretty hard.

Because he doesn't have feats and a name he is automatically a low level fodder henchman who isn't an established fighter?

Yes.

It's obvious he is an established fighter, even more so than DS because of his training history with Shiva.

It's true that the unnamed ninja had impressive accolades. Ones I'm sure you're exaggerating, but still. What I'm getting at is that he has nothing to back them up with, hence him being an unestablished fighter. I haven't actually read the issue in question, but I'm pretty confident in saying that the ninja's only purpose in the story was to lose to Batman, making him look good. Saying that someone that unestablished is somehow being more so than Deathstroke isn't even laughable - it's just plain cringey.

Other than Slade, no street leveler can just 1v1 Batman(and maybe Shiva but Batman beat her already. He is more skilled and more fit or the two) without taking a lot more losses than wins.

Now, I was going to rustle you by listing several street-levelers that would stomp Batman, but that would splinter off into a bunch of different arguments that I'm not here for. What I will say is that the idea of Deathstroke and possibly Lady Shiva being the only street-levelers that can beat Batman for a majority is just ridiculous. There's literally hundreds of characters that fit that bill.

Moreover, you just admitted that Deathstroke would beat Batman for a majority. Why are we still doing this, again?

Batman didn't. He made the floor do it.

Sure, that makes sense.

Tbh anything ranging from 0-about 900 or 1000 lbs, Batman can ragdoll it.

If we exclusively look at a handful of high-end, multi-ton showings from Batman, then sure. The problem with that is that it's also disregarding hundreds upon hundreds of his other showings, many of which include instances where he struggled with objects that weighed much, much less than what he can apparently 'ragdoll.' I can't even seriously argue that Deathstroke could do that, and we both agree that he's stronger than Batman.

That isn't and never was my argument. I already went over this in this comment.

What

This is to also both of your "the smartest thing he did is" statements. By guard I meant dodging, blocking, and basically showcases of skill. Which all of these had. Not just what the DS vs Batman rooftop-fight had. Which was Batman getting hits off first, then DS making an amazing comeback out of nowhere.

Have you even read their first fight? From the way you're describing it, I really don't think you have. Interpreting something subjectively is one thing, but it seems like you have no idea of what actually happened on the pages you keep bringing up. I'll dissect a handful of pages from it so you can see what I mean. I won't do the whole fight because I try to stick to the site's three scan rule as much as possible, but "moving on":

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3
For anyone just tuning in - Deathstroke the Terminator #7
  1. Batman blocks Deathstroke's initial strike.
  2. Deathstroke dodges Batman's first punch.
  3. By using his staff and Batman's own hold against him, Deathstroke skillfully flips Batman on his back.
  4. While Batman recovers, Slade cleverly and acrobatically gains distance with a back handspring.
  5. Batman leaps over Slade's shot and tackles him off the ledge.
  6. While falling, Batman uses his grappling hook to slam Slade into the side of a building. This is smart as hell.
  7. The two lock arms, which visibly favors Slade.
  8. Bruce skillfully breaks free by kicking Slade in the face, and keeping up the offensive.
  9. Batman takes Slade off of the statue they were fighting on, but Slade skillfully reverses it.
  10. Deathstroke goes on the offensive, listing the reasons why he'd win.

The argument that Batman's skill was "cut in half" when he fought Slade is completely unsubstantiated. He used just as much skill as he did in each and every other fight you've provided (Lady Shiva, Bronze Tiger, etc), if not more. That latter is supported given Slade is more physically powerful than all of the aforementioned, among other things. Additionally, I've already extensively addressed their second fight, and I can go over their most recent one in Deathstroke Vol. 3 #5 if needed.

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#124 Posted by BatmanPlusJay (3686 posts) - - Show Bio

@elijah_c_washington:

Gonna get back at the rest I'd your post later, but I wanna quickly address this.

"Furthermore, you now admitting that that's where you're getting everything you've been using not only hurts your credibility, but lets me in on the entirety of your feat pool."

Lose credibility in what? Lol.

Point is that not reading much of his comics or getting info from movies, shows, and/or video games (which is where I initially became a Batman fan as a kid and got my info on him, which tbh was accurate asf. Those video games, movies and shows actually portrayed Batman accurately. So I was lucky) or respect threads doesn't make someone lose "credibility". Cause honestly most people find their favorite characters that way. They simply got their info at a different angle than you. Rather than buying comics over and over. There's *maany* viners on this website that use that capability website. I mean.. I can call one here if you like.. I barely know this person but, if you don't mind, I don't mind. Its the most accurate, reliable source out there and it's not too hard to find and quickest way to get information. Quantity and Quality respect thread.

Its called research. Its part of debating. And you're against people using said source? Don't like it? Welp... Lol. Because now research is something to lose credit for? Lol. Sure.

I'll get to the rest of your comment while you try to find a way to "expose" me and make me lose my credibility.

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#125 Posted by Noone1996 (11093 posts) - - Show Bio

Wow this thread blew up xD

Batman's overrated.

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#126 Edited by Elijah_C_Washington (4618 posts) - - Show Bio

@batmanplusjay: This is a bit off topic, but I'll indulge you.

Lose credibility in what? Lol.

Lose credibility as a debater.

Point is that not reading much of his comics or getting info from movies, shows, and/or video games (which is where I initially became a Batman fan as a kid and got my info on him, which tbh was accurate asf. Those video games, movies and shows actually portrayed Batman accurately. So I was lucky) or respect threads doesn't make someone lose "credibility".

  1. Yeah, yeah it does. Experiencing the source material firsthand is crucial to debating.
  2. When we're arguing comic versions, games, shows, and movies have zero relevance, no matter how accurate you think they are when it comes to portraying Batman. They're very far removed from canon.
  3. Respect thread debating does ruin your credibility. You haven't read the issues, hence you don't know anything about the context surrounding the feat, among other things. Plus there's the whole plagiraizing thing.
  4. Actual debating involves reading and analyzing the issue objectively, factoring in both what the art shows and what the author meant, being able to identify argumentative fallacies, provide showings and all relevant context, etc. You haven't done any of that.

Cause honestly most people find their favorite characters that way. They simply got their info at a different angle than you. Rather than buying comics over and over.

The source material is pretty much the only acceptable 'angle' there is. Even if you just read through an amazing debate, that's so much less effective than knowing the source material yourself.

There's *maany* viners on this website that use that capability website. I mean.. I can call one here if you like.. I barely know this person but, if you don't mind, I don't mind.Its the most accurate, reliable source out there and it's not too hard to find and quickest way to get information. Quantity and Quality respect thread.

I don't mind, but not being able to fight your own battles also damages your credibility. Needing to 2v1 me doesn't exactly make you look good.

Its the most accurate, reliable source out there and it's not too hard to find and quickest way to get information. Quantity and Quality respect thread.

There are several reasons why that specific source isn't the most accurate and reliable source. That title goes to the source material. This isn't to say that every showing on it is illegitimate, but quite a number are. Moreover, no matter how you cut it, it gives you a subjective interpretation of Batman's capabilities. Getting almost all of your information from that and zero from the aforementioned source material is nothing shy of laughable, and very far away from making you credible.

Its called research. Its part of debating.

  1. Don't try to educate me on debating.
  2. It's not research, it's a cheap imitation.

I'll get to the rest of your comment while you try to find a way to "expose" me and make me lose my credibility.

Alright.

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#127 Edited by BatmanPlusJay (3686 posts) - - Show Bio

@elijah_c_washington: lol what a coincidence.. I didn't know answering the phone whilst typing this would delete my progress. Lol oh well.

"You're calling it PIS based off of context I provided that you can't even recall. Batman did win,"

I said "Batman should have won *easily* because of it". Wasn't saying Batman never won.

"As soon as that isn't contradicted by everything in the comics, I'll concede."

That's like if Damian managed to outdo Batman in a spar(hypothetical), and despite it being obvious Batman is the better of the two as shown in feats, you say "well the comics say so and the comics dont lie so until they say yes Damian is better". When it's legit wrong and PIS writing why Damian had won. Batman has more and has better skill feats than DS. Much better.

"Red herring."

And Wtf is that

"I think the fact that you didn't think of it first wonderfully highlights just how subjective all of your reasoning really is"

Sure.

"However, I'll say right now that Slade's technical skill showings are decisively better than Ollie's."

And Batmans are decisively better than Deathstrokes.

"I say this as the best of the Vine's go-to Deathstroke guy and a pretty huge Green Arrow fan respectively. If you try to argue otherwise against me of all people, you're going down pretty hard."

Let me be clear I'm not saying GA would win. I'm saying the reason Deathstroke wins is only because of his far superior physique compared to GA. Now I honestly would challenge you if I had more info about GA. I might still challenge you if I can dig myself up a website to see his feats. I'm pretty sure GA has strictly skill feats as good or even better than Deathstrokes. So hold up while I look

"Ones I'm sure you're exaggerating, but still."

Neither of us can say whether that's an exaggeration or not due to the lack of feats. But its evident he is definitely skillfully more established that deathstroke if Shiva herself sent him ALONE to handle the bat. Someone who knocked Shiva out already.(yes yes I'm aware of them fighting previous Times)

"Saying that someone that unestablished is somehow being more so than Deathstroke isn't even laughable - it's just plain cringey."

He's not unestablished. At all. "I'm confident they made him fight Batman alone to make him look good". Or maybe he actually was established enough to even hit Batman(which I don't think he did). Otherwise Shiva would have sent more ninja if she really thought he wasn't ready.

"Moreover, you just admitted that Deathstroke would beat Batman for a majority. Why are we still doing this, again?"

No. I said he wouldn't take more losses than wins. But he also wouldn't take more wins that losses. Like I've been saying from the start, it's a draw. That's you who went and assumed I implied DS would take more wins. "I think the fact that you didn't think of it first wonderfully highlights just how subjective all of your reasoning really is" :)

"If we exclusively look at a handful of high-end, multi-ton showings from Batman, then sure. The problem with that is that it's also disregarding hundreds upon hundreds of his other showings, many of which include instances where he struggled with objects that weighed much, much less than what he can apparently 'ragdoll.' I can't even seriously argue that Deathstroke could do that, and we both agree that he's stronger than Batman"

Ok.

"Have you even read their first fight? From the way you're describing it, I really don't think you have. Interpreting something subjectively is one thing, but it seems like you have no idea of what actually happened on the pages you keep bringing up. I'll dissect a handful of pages from it so you can see what I mean. I won't do the whole fight because I try to stick to the site's three scan rule as much as possible, but "moving on":"

Yeah. My bad. I've actually read that fight before any other fights they had. I've also read the whole fight like I believe toy assume I didn't. But this fight has just been leaked soo far out into the world and I kept seeing that last part where DS actually takes the upper hand(cause that's the main part people kept using to say DS was better), over and over, and my memory of the fight was a bit cloudy. Honestly I remembered it as I said it. Batman beating him up then DS making a crazy comeback. So my bad. Error in my part.

"Lose credibility as a debater."

Rhetorical question son. XD

"Yeah, yeah it does. Experiencing the source material firsthand is crucial to debating."

Your opinion. I admit experiencing first hand has it's benefits but its not crucial to debating at all. As long as you know the terms of the fight(was someone poisoned, was one weakened, did one get outside power, etc) then boom you have context and the situation terms and it's perfectly fine. And that capability website goes over the terms in most cases. If it doesn't in some cases, please inform me. With proof of course.

"When we're arguing comic versions, games, shows, and movies have zero relevance, no matter how accurate you think they are when it comes to portraying Batman. They're very far removed from canon"

Not to give you a life story but I basically got the basic info about Batman as a kid. He was smart. He was skilled. He had tech. And he could fight. He was sneaky. But then as I grew up a little I basically learned the extent of those skills through video games. Batman ripping doors straight off hinges. Lifting men in the air with 1 hand. Ragdolling them across rooms. Kicking people across rooms. Or even doing things like bending metal or flipping people like Bane. And now(this day and age) I got better in site on the extent of his abilities through that capabilities website that provided actual Canon proof for the most part. I've read like 1 Batman comic ever. I've been meaning to get into more of his comics but I didn't know where to start so now I'm planning on starting with rebirth. Point of this was to explain to you that you don't need Canon material to get basic insight and info of a character. If you only played ultimate ninja storm games without touching the manga or show, you could get basic insight on Naruto, the characters, and their abilities(but I watched the whole show and read the manga so I'm good). Even though the plot was non Canon, and maybe a few abilities, the rest *is* pretty accurate for the most part(but even non Canon writers wouldn't to as far as add a WHOLE New move to a character. Otherwise it'd piss the fan base off). Of course it's BEST if you do because it's most accurate(and I ended up getting Canon info on him anyway so it doesn't matter).

"Respect thread debating does ruin your credibility. You haven't read the issues, hence you don't know anything about the context surrounding the feat, among other things. Plus there's the whole plagiraizing thing."

Ok. Plagirasizing, I can understand that part. But the rest is if you're interested in the story and how it all went down.

"Actual debating involves reading and analyzing the issue objectively, factoring in both what the art shows and what the author meant, being able to identify argumentative fallacies, provide showings and all relevant context, etc. You haven't done any of that."

I believe this falls under your #1 argument. Which I went over.

"The source material is pretty much the only acceptable 'angle' there is. Even if you just read through an amazing debate, that's so much less effective than knowing the source material yourself."

I can understand why you say that But don't say it's the only acceptable thing like that's fact. Everything you said here was opinion based.

"I don't mind, but not being able to fight your own battles also damages your credibility. Needing to 2v1 me doesn't exactly make you look good."

Lol you misunderstood me. This wasn't to double team. Its basically leverage for if you were to say "Viners don't use outside websites!!" or something like that.

"Getting almost all of your information from that and zero from the aforementioned source material is nothing shy of laughable, and very far away from making you credible."

But I didn't only get my info from that and nothing before. I been interested in Batman waay before finding that site.

"Don't try to educate me on debating.

It's not research, it's a cheap imitation."

Its just an easier way to gather info for me and many others. If I had a little folder in my computer(hypothetical) with all of the issues in it that I've read from comics, I'd still probably use that website because it's just easier to access and have everything organized in a fashionable manner. Plus the "find in page" feature?? Don't tell me you'd give that up man. XD

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#128 Posted by casper4690 (704 posts) - - Show Bio

@elijah_c_washington: @batmanplusjay: Great debate. Still leaning towards DS. I'm curious though , why do you proceed to call elijah "son" and "kid?" Do you know how old is he or her?

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#129 Posted by Elijah_C_Washington (4618 posts) - - Show Bio

@casper4690 said:

@elijah_c_washington: @batmanplusjay: Great debate. Still leaning towards DS. I'm curious though , why do you proceed to call elijah "son" and "kid?" Do you know how old is he or her?

I'll let him answer that.

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#130 Posted by Elijah_C_Washington (4618 posts) - - Show Bio

@casper4690: Though, if I were to guess, I'd say he's condescending as much as possible because it makes him feel like he's winning.

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#131 Edited by casper4690 (704 posts) - - Show Bio

@elijah_c_washington: Yep, I was genuinely curious. I typically see those phrases when someone tries come off as a big shot (usually self-esteem issues), while attempting to undermine someone else's comments/opinions.

Surprised, since the debate is interesting and doesn't need any of that.

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#132 Posted by Elijah_C_Washington (4618 posts) - - Show Bio

@casper4690 said:

@elijah_c_washington: Yep, I was genuinely curious. I typically see those phrases when someone tries come off as a big shot (usually self-esteem issues), while attempting to undermine someone's else's comments/opinions.

Surprised, since the debate is interesting and doesn't need any of that.

That's actually pretty funny.

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#133 Edited by BatmanPlusJay (3686 posts) - - Show Bio

@casper4690: @Elijah_C_Washington: Well no. I said son because that's just the way I talk. I call many people son. Its like another way of saying "come on, man". Just recently I started actually typing it though. So nah, Not tryna be condescending with that one. And I called him kid because he said it himself that he was "shit-talking". And he says little things like "he's condescending as much as possible because it makes him feel like he's winning." which is condescending in it's own way. So why not return the favor without taking it a step too far? No way he could have expected to shit talk me but expect none in return. That'd just be too naive. Lol

"I typically see those phrases when someone tries come off as a big shot (usually self-esteem issues), while attempting to undermine someone else's comments/opinions"

That's a scenario. Or maybe the guy is just returning the favor. I've never really said he was an idiot or anything like that. He takes a little jab at me sometimes and I just take a jab back. Its just not as "hidden"(I guess you can say) as his.

People try to do things like what you did (no offense) by grouping people who do certain things into 1 little box of people. Like you did, with the self-esteem problems and such. But those are honestly wrong for the most part. Sometimes I use kid just to get people ticked off and troll.(won't believe how many people I encountered that hate being called "kid" lol)

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#134 Posted by nfactor1995 (12806 posts) - - Show Bio

By all logic, Slade SHOULD beat Batman in a straight up fight on neutral ground. But Batman seems to always be written to be better than he should be given his on paper skills, and that lets him beat people like Deathstroke.

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#135 Edited by Elijah_C_Washington (4618 posts) - - Show Bio

@batmanplusjay: The majority of that had nothing to do with the topic at hand, so this post is going to be noticeably shorter than yours.

I said "Batman should have won *easily* because of it". Wasn't saying Batman never won.

I know what you said, I even quoted it. You called it PIS. Disregarding my explanation of why it wasn't, you still have yet to prove why Batman should win - let alone easily - under such circumstances.

That's like if Damian managed to outdo Batman in a spar(hypothetical), and despite it being obvious Batman is the better of the two as shown in feats, you say "well the comics say so and the comics dont lie so until they say yes Damian is better". When it's legit wrong and PIS writing why Damian had won. Batman has more and has better skill feats than DS. Much better.

...No, that's not even the same scenario. But whatever, an argument from an analogy is a very easy one to counter. Especially one that involves comparing Damian Wayne to Deathstroke. So here are the three strengths of an analogy, and why yours has none of them:

  • Relevance - Damian isn't very relevant to this topic to begin with. This is bordering on red herring territory. I'll let you know when we officially cross over.
  • Degree - Damian Wayne isn't comparable to Deathstroke. Slade completely blows past him in all relevant areas, which I am capable of proving extensively.
  • Amount & Variety - Damian doesn't have the history of contending with Bruce that Slade does. Him beating Bruce once isn't the same as Slade beating him again.

And now, let's move onto an equal number of actual counterarguments:

  • Disanalogy - There are way too many differences between Damian and Slade for your analogy to hold. To name a few, Slade is much more experienced, much more physically powerful, and has completely different morals.
  • Counteranalogy - I could make a completely opposite analogy, and it would be exactly as credible as yours.
  • Unintended Consequences - Your conclusion involves me saying something that I'd never say, because I know not to pretend that Damian and Deathstroke are somehow equivalents of each other. This isn't at all what you were trying to prove, but it is fundamental to what you said.

And Wtf is that

No Caption Provided

And Batmans are decisively better than Deathstrokes.

This is an especially pointless, very explicit red herring. I've stated several times throughout this thread that Batman is indeed more technically skilled than Deathstroke.

Let me be clear I'm not saying GA would win. I'm saying the reason Deathstroke wins is only because of his far superior physique compared to GA. Now I honestly would challenge you if I had more info about GA.

I didn't imply that that was what you stated. I've been referring specifically to their technical skill, because you claimed Ollie was better in that department. Again, that is up to you to prove, not for me to prove false.

I might still challenge you if I can dig myself up a website to see his feats. I'm pretty sure GA has strictly skill feats as good or even better than Deathstrokes. So hold up while I look

Just don't bother. You've got enough on your hands. You don't need to scavenge around for Green Arrow's best skill showings, I know them off the top of my head. I also know that Slade went untouched by an amped Green Arrow and his backup, only to kill him at the end of the issue, Green Arrow Vol. 5 #51. Seriously, you didn't know anything about Green Arrow when you made the claim, you still don't, so just drop this part of the argument. It'll only leave you embarrassed, and I speak entirely from experience.

He's not unestablished. At all. "I'm confident they made him fight Batman alone to make him look good". Or maybe he actually was established enough to even hit Batman(which I don't think he did). Otherwise Shiva would have sent more ninja if she really thought he wasn't ready.

He is, and I've already explained why. He's got a couple of accolades and nothing to back them up with. Get back to me on this when you actually have feats. Otherwise, this is you being "trapped" in that "dead end" argument you spoke of earlier.

No. I said he wouldn't take more losses than wins. But he also wouldn't take more wins that losses. Like I've been saying from the start, it's a draw. That's you who went and assumed I implied DS would take more wins. "I think the fact that you didn't think of it first wonderfully highlights just how subjective all of your reasoning really is" :)

I admittedly misread that part. My mistake. However, you as well are still technically misquoting what I was replying to in the first place. Secondly, you did say that current Batman would 'demolish' Slade, so your initial and current take on the fight isn't exactly the one you've been promoting throughout. And finally, that's just not what subjectivity is.

After that you conceded on two different things (and let's not understate how crucial they were to proving your point), and went on about a bunch of unrelated stuff that should be kept in PMs and/or its own thread. This is all per the rules, mainly. Don't mistake this for me giving up, though. I'm game if you are.

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#136 Edited by BatmanPlusJay (3686 posts) - - Show Bio

@elijah_c_washington:

Ok. At this point it can only boil down to speculation because I was just gonna repeat myself that Batmans skill completely outweighs DS physique But never mind.

And I could counter some of your claims but those claims don't really matter.

((Edit))

I got an idea actually. So this isn't over yet

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#137 Edited by Elijah_C_Washington (4618 posts) - - Show Bio

@batmanplusjay: I'm intimidated and you didn't give up in the lamest way possible. May the Force be with you, brother.

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#138 Posted by HighAccuser (9696 posts) - - Show Bio

Deathstroke>Batman

Batman wankers need to accept this.

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#139 Edited by BatmanPlusJay (3686 posts) - - Show Bio

@elijah_c_washington:

"I'm intimidated and you didn't give up in the lamest way possible."

What? You're intimidated? What does that mean and what you mean by I didn't give up in the lamest way possible?

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#140 Posted by BatmanPlusJay (3686 posts) - - Show Bio
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#141 Posted by Elijah_C_Washington (4618 posts) - - Show Bio
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#142 Posted by HighAccuser (9696 posts) - - Show Bio

@nerevarine_11: Ok DS wanker.

Lmao so I'm a wanker for saying one is objectively better in a fight?

This is you right now isn't it?

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#143 Posted by Green_Tea (10341 posts) - - Show Bio

Oh boy this thread again.

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#144 Posted by HighAccuser (9696 posts) - - Show Bio

Oh boy this thread again.

Don't you know man?

Batman can beat Slade in a random encounter all the time, even though Batman has been owned by him, Bronze Tiger and Lady Shiva too.

Batman can beat anybody in H2H. Even Karate Kid or Iron Fist.

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#145 Edited by Green_Tea (10341 posts) - - Show Bio
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#146 Posted by HighAccuser (9696 posts) - - Show Bio

@nerevarine_11: with the hellbat he stomps TOAA and the Presence.

I should make a Lois in Hellbat vs. Bruce in Hellbat match lmao

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#147 Posted by Green_Tea (10341 posts) - - Show Bio

@solid_snake97 said:

@nerevarine_11: with the hellbat he stomps TOAA and the Presence.

I should make a Lois in Hellbat vs. Bruce in Hellbat match lmao

funny thing is I can see people heavily debate on that one xD.

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#149 Posted by Green_Tea (10341 posts) - - Show Bio
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#150 Edited by BatmanPlusJay (3686 posts) - - Show Bio

@elijah_c_washington:

"I'm not going to explain sarcasm to you"

You said you're "intimidated" like I said something to try to intimidate you or some shit. Lmao I knew it was sarcasm, but for what though? Lmao what was even your point? Lmao

I didn't even know where you were heading to begin with.

"And you didn't give up in the lamest way possible".

Damn right, I can continue. I don't have a problem with that. I didn't even feel like debating at the moment. So I guess I can agree I almost gave gave it up too early but like I said I can debunk and counter some of your claims, ah f*** it. Why not?

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