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#51 Edited by BatmanPlusJay (4027 posts) - - Show Bio

@revan2424: Lol. Like a Batman debater? Or just a legend in debating all-around? I think I saw him a few times

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#52 Posted by BatmanPlusJay (4027 posts) - - Show Bio

@casper4690: I can respect that. Although it's inaccurate as hell, I can respect it.

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#53 Posted by casper4690 (704 posts) - - Show Bio

Far from inaccurate, but whatever floats your boat.

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#54 Edited by JediXMan (42486 posts) - - Show Bio
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#55 Posted by Elijah_C_Washington (4618 posts) - - Show Bio

@jedixman: Cowardice is rather common in his fan base.

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#56 Posted by Revan- (7959 posts) - - Show Bio

@revan2424: Lol. Like a Batman debater? Or just a legend in debating all-around? I think I saw him a few times

YOU DON'T KNOW THE LEGEND CHEW?

In reality he was a really good troll, who had some stupid claims but people thought he was serious. He was so good he is now a meme. Check him out @wenjun_chew

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#57 Posted by BatmanPlusJay (4027 posts) - - Show Bio

@jedixman: ?? What do you mean by that? Personally I've came across many confident DS debaters.

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#58 Posted by BatmanPlusJay (4027 posts) - - Show Bio
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#59 Edited by cameron83 (8548 posts) - - Show Bio

I really think that this is an interesting topic and an interesting point that you guys are on to.

The consensus on comicvine is that "Slade stomps" or "Slade wins every time", but I really think that it's much much closer than people would believe (and I believe that many times, that's how it is portrayed to be). It really is close, in my honest opinion. I guess it really depends on the situation, too, and I see it more as a "flip a coin" type of thing more times than not.

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#60 Edited by BatmanPlusJay (4027 posts) - - Show Bio

@cameron83: MY POINT EXACTLY!! XD 50/50 IS WHAT I WAS SAYIN BRO! The point of these two, like I said, are to be rivals. Not for 1 to be dogging the other. More like Arkham Origins style. It wasn't lopsided, it could have went either way! When they meet, it's supposed to build tension like if it was a kind of a dope battle that'll settling things once And for all. Supposed to be a hell of a fight with these two. That's why people still love a good Batman vs DS because they're so damn equal. Slade has the physicals and Batman has the skill, both brilliant in tactics and strategy, And both are brutal fighters.

Its also why people are hype as HELL that Deathstroke is the main antagonist in the new Solo Batman movie. I'm hype too. I am really hoping we see a 50/50 battle. Nothing lopsided, a brutal 50/50 battle.

But people like @elijah_c_washington: and @casper4690: don't understand that though! XD

And @elijah_c_washington: when you gonna respond? I got scans on backup. Come on bro

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#61 Edited by cameron83 (8548 posts) - - Show Bio

@batmanplusjay: I think I know what you're saying, and I feel the same way. I kinda feel that it should never be portrayed lopsided in either's favor because that's not really how it was ever really intended (all things equal, ofc). And if you're talking about the Arkham origins trailer (the in-game fight was garbage tbh), I think that was a great portrayal of both of the characters, and neither side really had a definitive advantage over the other. If one thing was for sure, the fight was close with both of them going back and forth with each of their respective advantages playing out in the fight, as it realistically should. Not moments where Slade is able to "easily" beat Batman or vice versa.

But that's just me tbh

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#62 Posted by HighAccuser (9696 posts) - - Show Bio

Lot of fanboyism and insecurity in this thread. It's a riot

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#63 Posted by BatmanPlusJay (4027 posts) - - Show Bio
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#64 Posted by ITouchedTheBoat (3390 posts) - - Show Bio

its very well understood and backed up that Deathstroke beats Batman because Batman pulls his punches and doesn't kill. Thats it...those are Deathstroke's words

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#65 Posted by BatmanPlusJay (4027 posts) - - Show Bio

@itouchedtheboat: Doesn't mean DS is righr though. I don't think Batmans "no kill" rules effects him too much. I already explained it but If you want I'll go over it again.

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#66 Edited by ITouchedTheBoat (3390 posts) - - Show Bio

@batmanplusjay said:

@itouchedtheboat: Doesn't mean DS is righr though. I don't think Batmans "no kill" rules effects him too much. I already explained it but If you want I'll go over it again.

you're welcome to share your opinion with me, so please go ahead. Batman pulls his punches a lot, not saying he hits harder than DS but he hits hard enough to give Slade a rattle. The way i see it is that those aren't even DS's words, those are the writers explaining to use where DS and Batman stand against each other.

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#67 Edited by BatmanPlusJay (4027 posts) - - Show Bio

@itouchedtheboat:

Well here's what I basically told someone else, I'll paste it here:

Deathstrokes willingness to kill doesn't make him better. Not even close especially since Batman actually does out do him in H2H skill by a mile. Batmans also brutal. He doesn't care. His "no kill" rule wouldnt hold him back. He could throw harley down two flights of stairs and jump on her chest after. If they're not dead, he doesn't care. Batman could literally go from scaring someone to straight up torturing them. Breaking bones and having them fall from buildings that are *just* tall enough to break their legs. Batmans not afraid to be brutal. So he isn't really holding back as much as people make it seem.

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#68 Edited by ITouchedTheBoat (3390 posts) - - Show Bio

@itouchedtheboat:

Well here's what I basically told someone else, I'll paste it here:

Deathstrokes willingness to kill doesn't make him better. Not even close especially since Batman actually does out do him in H2H skill by a mile. Batmans also brutal. He doesn't care. His "no kill" rule wouldnt hold him back. He could throw harley down two flights of stairs and jump on her chest after. If they're not dead, he doesn't care. Batman could literally go from scaring someone to straight up torturing them. Breaking bones and having them fall from buildings that are *just* tall enough to break their legs. Batmans not afraid to be brutal. So he isn't really holding back as much as people make it seem.

still holding back enough for DS to take advantage of more than half of the time. I read a comic a while ago where DS and Batman first meet(and obviously fight) this is from the 70s i think (I'm not that old i just read the comic lol). Batman prohibits DS from killing his 'score' so DS fights Batman on a window ledge or something, DS wins and goes on to say 'you're not on my list so ill let you live' or something along those lines. After a while Batman and DS meet again and Batman wins their second fight. This showed me something, I realized that (I am so getting crucified on this site for saying this LOL) Batman is the Superman of street-levellers; i mean this as in they both hold back for their enemies' sake. Superman can take out 99% of the people in his respective tier (this is where I'm triggering 90% of this site lol) level but he wont realistically do it in their first fight because he'll be holding back a lot just to see what his enemy is capable of. Batman can take out 95% of the people in his respective tier lvl but wont do it in their first fight because he doesnt want to accidentally kill them. He goes crazy on Harley and Joker because he's aware of their threshold and will push them almost all the way.

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#69 Posted by Titanbreaker (1300 posts) - - Show Bio

@titanbreaker: They did. But Slade already said Batmans punches still hurt despite his healing factor and that it'd still take hours to heal up. And reflexes? Sure? But I don't know if He has those. But I do know he has enhanced vision, strength, speed, agility, and a healing factor. Reflexes, I don't recall.

And I believe we all came to the conclusion that Slades superior physical condition isn't really that big a gap from Batmans. But I still am sticking by Batman outclassing Slade in skill by a mile because he honestly does. People say he doesn't, but he does. Lol Slade hasn't went the length Batman has in skill. And that length is pretty far.

Because honestly, you can be the most fit man on earth like Batman(or even slightly better like Slade), but what good is it if the person you're fighting is a better fighter? What good is is it if your opponent has tools that could render yours useless? What good is it if your opponent could most definitely take the advantage in the dark, except writers don't write that. Because y'know, they need Batman to have a rival. And Batman easily taking the W cause he uses the environment to his advantage isn't a fight many people want to see.

I find it weird that Batman can hurt Slade at all with his punches when Slade takes hits from people like Starfire and Donna Troy and just keeps fighting.

I think Slade gets lowered to fight Batman, rather than Batman is just that 'good'.

Guy can react to kid Flash as well, so his speed and reflexes are well above the average human no question.

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#70 Posted by ITouchedTheBoat (3390 posts) - - Show Bio

I find it weird that Batman can hurt Slade at all with his punches when Slade takes hits from people like Starfire and Donna Troy and just keeps fighting.

I think Slade gets lowered to fight Batman, rather than Batman is just that 'good'.

Guy can react to kid Flash as well, so his speed and reflexes are well above the average human no question.

thats all PIS

DS taking out the league: Plot

DS taking out kid flash: Plot

DS's main source of power: Plot

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#71 Posted by Titanbreaker (1300 posts) - - Show Bio

@titanbreaker said:

I find it weird that Batman can hurt Slade at all with his punches when Slade takes hits from people like Starfire and Donna Troy and just keeps fighting.

I think Slade gets lowered to fight Batman, rather than Batman is just that 'good'.

Guy can react to kid Flash as well, so his speed and reflexes are well above the average human no question.

thats all PIS

DS taking out the league: Plot

DS taking out kid flash: Plot

DS's main source of power: Plot

I find this ironic given Batman is also in the topic but suddenly plot power is not allowed. :)

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#72 Edited by ITouchedTheBoat (3390 posts) - - Show Bio

@itouchedtheboat said:
@titanbreaker said:

I find it weird that Batman can hurt Slade at all with his punches when Slade takes hits from people like Starfire and Donna Troy and just keeps fighting.

I think Slade gets lowered to fight Batman, rather than Batman is just that 'good'.

Guy can react to kid Flash as well, so his speed and reflexes are well above the average human no question.

thats all PIS

DS taking out the league: Plot

DS taking out kid flash: Plot

DS's main source of power: Plot

I find this ironic given Batman is also in the topic but suddenly plot power is not allowed. :)

LOL

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#73 Posted by BatmanPlusJay (4027 posts) - - Show Bio

@titanbreaker: Batman has beaten the whole JLA. Which we all know is PIS. DS also did it but it's PIS. Batman caught kid flash. He CAUGHT him then beat him.

Batman also reacted to the actual flash. Barry.

You don't think Batmans done things that DS did? Just ask and I'll show You some scans.

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#74 Edited by Elijah_C_Washington (4618 posts) - - Show Bio

@batmanplusjay:.

They did. But Slade already said Batmans punches still hurt despite his healing factor and that it'd still take hours to heal up.

Nope. Batman's punches hurt him, but he still heals the actual damage almost instantly. You're referencing this exact page from Deathstroke the Terminator #8, but you're misquoting it, and have been since your initial post. This is the actual page:

No Caption Provided

Currently you're claiming that Deathstroke said he'd take hours to heal from Batman's strikes, but that's just not what he said. As shown above, what he actually said was that while his healing factor let him heal from Batman's strikes, he would still feel the pain after that happened.

There's two other things I want to note about this page that you haven't considered, likely because you're way out of your depth here. Issue eight came way before Slade's healing factor was actually fleshed out. For instance, on that very page he says that he can heal any non-lethal wound, but when his healing factor actually got some focus later in the series, he was healing lethal wounds all the time. In Deathstroke Vol. 1 #43-44 he was impaled through the chest, face planted from a height well above skyscrapers, was then cut open on an operating table, healed all of it, and immediately started fighting:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5

Hell, being 'immortal' became part of his character. I've already mentioned Deathstroke Vol. 1 #52, in which Slade fought Ebrax. Ebrax was cursed to be immortal, and had lived over 3,000 years by the time he encountered Slade. The only way he could die was to be killed by someone else with immortality, and Slade killed him. That is how much Slade's healing factor improved since his earliest encounter with Batman.

The second thing I want to bring up is that it's just a low showing of Slade's staying power. Batman can certainly hurt Slade and has done so consistently, but being beaten up by that random thug (who was actually a full-fledged assassin) isn't consistent with Slade's overall resilience, even prior to his healing factor getting a lot of focus. I'll touch more on that very soon.

And reflexes? Sure? But I don't know if He has those. But I do know he has enhanced vision, strength, speed, agility, and a healing factor. Reflexes, I don't recall.

Seriously? You're arguing against Deathstroke, but you don't even know one of his most prominent abilities. His reflexes have been stated to be both superhuman and instantaneous numerous times. For a specific example, take The New Titans #75, in which Slade, though rattled from enduring a helicopter explosion, jumps through a fan that was spinning so fast that it was actively deflecting the Wildebeests' laser-like weaponry. He even explicitly states that the experiment he went through increased his reflexes ten times over:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3

Best part about this showing is that it ties in with what I had to say about Deathstroke the Terminator #8. Slade plainly states that, though his healing factor takes care of the actual damage he's taken, it doesn't do anything to help the actual pain it caused.

Now, a helicopter explosion would hurt Slade way more than strikes from Batman, but he was still capable of moving superhumanly fast without issue. Given the fact that this is consistent with a couple other showings (Like his fight with the Jackal in Deathstroke the Terminator #3), it's more than likely that Marv Wolfman felt he had to give Batman some credit after he was humiliated by Slade in Deathstroke the Terminator #7, even though it's completely inconsistent with what Slade has endured under the same writer and in the past in general. To put it simply, it was writer induced stupidity through and through.

And I believe we all came to the conclusion that Slades superior physical condition isn't really that big a gap from Batmans.

Sure.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3
Detective Comics Vol. 1 #710

Whatever you say.

What good is it if your opponent could most definitely take the advantage in the dark, except writers don't write that.

Deathstroke's pretty good at stealth as well. In-comic, Wintergreen said Slade was ghosting people long before Batman in Deathstroke Vol. 4 #2, and his current writer outright said he was stealthier than Batman in an interview. Of course, there's also the fact that Slade deduced exactly where Batman was hiding in Deathstroke Vol. 4 #4:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

Sure, Batman got the jump on him in Deathstroke the Terminator #7, but that was right after Slade intentionally chose not to kill him, and he still dropped Batman afterwards. Realistically, stealth wouldn't even be a factor in a fight between the two.

Doesn't take away he was beaten to a pulp himself. By an average thug.

You're missing the point. Batman was left in way worse condition than Slade was after their fight.

How is he better? How is he "just better" when it's obvious Batmans the better fighter of the two?

For ****'s sake:

Detective Comics Vol. 1 #710
Detective Comics Vol. 1 #710

Deathstroke was intentionally fighting worse out of boredom, he was letting himself get hit, and he still beat the shit out of Bruce thrice in that issue. The message that Slade is overall better could not get any clearer.

Oh,well, He should be. But forget feats. More bias writing.

I don't even know what this is supposed to mean. Whatever it is, it's not an argument.

Ok, he has defense. So where does the part that he's a better fighter kick in?

Let me be clear, again: I'm not saying Slade is more skilled than Batman. He isn't. But that's not what overall fighting ability is. Slade's own skill, physicals, healing, morals, and weapons make him a greater combatant overall. Don't believe me? Read a comic.

Batman has the offense and his defense is on point.

No, the stronger guy who carries a sword with the intent to kill definitely has greater offense.

And it's amazing how Batmans never bothered to try to exploit pressure points on DS but overall fighting ability goes to Slade but hey, writing.

A: Batman doesn't have a history of using pressure points and nerve strikes against established fighters in general. That's not on Slade. Not at all.

B: Deathstroke himself has dropped Zatanna with a pressure point in Identity Crisis #3. Furthermore, in Justice League: Elite #2, not only did he identify the use of nerve strikes, he stated himself that he prefers to induce temporary strokes. It's just as 'amazing' that he's never tried any of that on Bruce.

Don't pin DS's mistakes on Batman.

Fine, I'll pin Batman's own mistakes on himself. In Batman Vol. 2 #4, Batman, who was not fighting a Green Lantern, is snuck up on and knocked out by William Cobb, who does not have the feats of Green Arrow:

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Is this a good showing to measure Batman's overall situational awareness on? No, but you're doing the same thing to Slade. Both have had shortcomings in that regard, but to focus on those showings exclusively is low-balling.

The fact Batman is human, I'm sure is why he would actually *need* to have more situational awareness than Deathstroke. Sure Batman has the feats of a Meta, but I still think his situational awareness would be above DS because of the fact he really is still human. Among people like superman.

Just because you think Batman would need better situational awareness than Deathstroke due to the fact that he's still just a man doesn't mean he actually does. For starters, Deathstroke has superhuman hearing and sight. He heard the soft, electronic humming of Nightwing's tracers in The Titans Vol. 1 #10 and spotted the Atom in Identity Crisis #3. Even disregarding that, Slade was trained to fight in three dimensions, as was mentioned in Deathstroke the Terminator Vol. 1 #1 (though it has been explained in greater depth in earlier books):

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

From there we get into Slade's showings against teams, such as going untouched by a team of Cassandra Cain, Nightwing, Ravager, Donna Troy, and Jericho in Teen Titans Vol. 3 #46:

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Slade's situational awareness is definitely better, but how much that matters in a one-on-one fight is up for debate.

With a whole lot of bias writing sprinkled in the middle. Because he shouldn't be even close in skill with Batman.

The fact that you think Deathstroke shouldn't be comparable to Bruce in skill doesn't count for anything, and in no way makes their first fight inadmissible by virtue of WIS. You're arguing that he shouldn't be, not that he isn't. In fact, by arguing that he shouldn't, you're admitting that he is. Regardless, it was directly stated in-comic that Slade won that first fight due to his physical and moral advantages.

No it isn't. Lol. He did kick down a full grown tree with no problem, did he not? And He did punch a crystal plated wall and dented it with a gain, no problem, did he not? Lol

I have yet to see the scan of him denting that wall, but him kicking down that tree in Batman: Year One is debatable in its impressiveness. Arguments have been made that instead of it being 'full grown', it was actually a dead tree. Either way, Slade's done better. A significantly weakened Deathstroke (exactly half as strong and fast) two-shotted Nightwing in Deathstroke the Terminator #14, and a normal one kicked through Lex Luthor's force field in Action Comics #892:

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Slade still hits harder, and it's still by a lot.

Took out a chunk of a brick wall to get out of a trap.

With all of his upper body strength, yes. This really isn't remotely as good as Slade scaling that wall on finger strength alone.

And threw Solomon Grundy over his head with 1 arm despite Solomon charging at him.

He didn't throw Grundy "over his head with 1 arm" in Batman Vol. 3 #2. See for yourself:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3

He flipped Grundy over his head with one arm, which is largely due to Grundy's own momentum. This is proven by the fact that the impact was enough to draw blood on Grundy, even though it took Gotham to do that a few pages earlier. Moreover, we have no idea how much Grundy is supposed to weigh.

In comparison, Deathstroke lifted a grand piano over his head and threw it at a wall so hard it crumbled against it in Deathstroke the Terminator #42, which is much more measurable and hence better than Bruce's Grundy feat.

If Batman has fought Slade before and is well aware of his abilities, why do the writers continue to make him recreate the same mistakes as before? Batman could use evasive maneuvers and his agility to give him a bigger upper hand in H2H combat. But no. The writers create the same fight over and over. Batman fights smart, while DS is coming in time try to hurry for the win, why aren't the writers writing Batman like he's supposed to be and outsmart Slade? He's well aware of the dudes abilities, why are they making him constantly do the same thing over and over?

Literally just quit crying. That's how all comic fights go.

The point of these two, like I said, are to be rivals. Not for 1 to be dogging the other. More like Arkham Origins style. It wasn't lopsided, it could have went either way! When they meet, it's supposed to build tension like if it was a kind of a dope battle that'll settling things once And for all.

Batman and Deathstroke aren't meant to be rivals. Deathstroke is supposed to be an anti-Batman, true, but that's not the same thing.

Anyway, you're arguing that all of their fights are invalid for purely thematic reasons. Even then, they are still based off of your own interpretation of the thematic elements of the respective characters. You're trying to prove your own idea of what should happen with in-comic stuff as much as you can, but you either ignore or flat out deny anything that suggests anything else.

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#75 Posted by jashro44 (52449 posts) - - Show Bio

@entropy_aegis: Pretty sure slade did bring up having 2 eyes was throwing him off against bronze tiger it just didn't stop him from stomping.

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#76 Posted by jashro44 (52449 posts) - - Show Bio

I will say batman can give slade a bigger challenge than most but based on there fight history slade really should win.

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#77 Edited by Elijah_C_Washington (4618 posts) - - Show Bio

@itouchedtheboat:

I read a comic a while ago where DS and Batman first meet(and obviously fight) this is from the 70s i think

Deathstroke wasn't created for another decade, and he didn't get his own solo-series for another decade after. His fight with Batman came six issues later.

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#78 Edited by ITouchedTheBoat (3390 posts) - - Show Bio

@elijah_c_washington said:

@itouchedtheboat:

I read a comic a while ago where DS and Batman first meet(and obviously fight) this is from the 70s i think

Deathstroke wasn't created for another decade, and he didn't get his own solo-series for another decade. His fight with Batman came six issues later.

https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--j2WxLs1l--/c_scale,fl_progressive,q_80,w_800/196588113ls1cjpg.jpg

this is the fight i was referring to, idk it looks like its from the 70s so thats what i thought. I was wrong about DS not killing because Batman wasnt on his list, but for the most part i remembered it pretty well.

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#79 Posted by Elijah_C_Washington (4618 posts) - - Show Bio
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#80 Posted by ITouchedTheBoat (3390 posts) - - Show Bio
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#81 Posted by laughingbatman (1827 posts) - - Show Bio

I bet Batman beats Deathstoke in the DCEU....

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#82 Posted by foxerdes (10159 posts) - - Show Bio

@laughingbatman: You just reminded me that Deathstroke is in it.

HYPE TRAIN

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#83 Posted by laughingbatman (1827 posts) - - Show Bio

@foxerdes: God forbid Deathstroke name drops "Martha". I love Batman but I will walk out of that theater immediately lol

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#84 Posted by captain_batman_FTW (8905 posts) - - Show Bio

Deathstroke beats Batman because physicals. That's it. It helps that Slade is a competent h2h combatant too.

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#85 Edited by BatmanPlusJay (4027 posts) - - Show Bio

@elijah_c_washington:

"To put it simply, it was writer induced stupidity through and through"

No.. It isn't... First, I'm gonna prove to you Bat man should most definitely be going toe-to-toe with DS and winning 50/50.

And lemme disclose I'm on my phone. So I cannot post scans here. Only send you to websites with the scans.

But first let me call you out on another quote you made:

"You're arguing that he shouldn't, not that he is. In fact, by arguing that he shouldn't, you're admitting that he is."

No, you're misunderstanding me. I'm arguing that he isn't. But I'm saying the way these bias writers write DS out in their encounters is PIS and it "shouldn't" be that way because Batman in actuality is better than deathstroke. I just wanted to clear that up before getting into things Batman has done to prove he should most definitely be taking more wins. Note, when I say should I'm saying should as in because he rightfully should, not in "oh I wish because he should". Because honestly, the things DS pull off on Batman are already contradicted by Batman being in the same or similar situations in the past but yet he gets out smoothly. But again, writers cut off half of Batmans knowledge when he fights only deathstroke. And it looks like it only deathstroke.

Ok, so now I'm gonna prove that DS reflexes shouldn't mean damn near anything, and that his skill and Batmans skill, are indeed miles apart and Batman should be ripping him.(incase you forgot, you yourself admitted batman was more skilled, here I'm just proving that someone, who's reflexes are much better than deathstrokes and who has even mimicked batmans skill, still couldn't beat him)

Background information & origin of Philo Zeiss, a martial arts assassin who had his eyesight enhanced enabling him to see the world in slow motion and increased his reflex speed far above the average human (Catwoman v2 #30). While talking to Oracle who reads his official profile/record to Batman, we learn Zeiss sees at a much higher speed rate than normal, has enhanced speed reflexes, plus an enhanced brain capacity so he can perfectly memorize and store images (or fighting techniques) then play them back in slow motion enabling him to learn very quickly and even mimic people's moves just as he did to Batman (Batman #591). Staging a robbery, he has Batman purposely fight a hired team of highly skilled martial artists posing as bank robbers to test his skill. Meanwhile, from afar above the event taking place he's shown studying Batman extensively by recording him fighting via his lenses which enabled him to record Batman's combat techniques (Batman #582). Now being prepared to fight Batman in their 1st battle he's then able to perfectly mimic Batman's skills and re-use them against him. Zeiss even managed to get the slight upper hand although he's still unsuccessful in beating Batman (Batman #583). Here it is:

http://s289.photobucket.com/user/darknight2k/media/Skills%20Misc/batman583-batmanvszeiss3.jpg.html

He has much much better reflexes than deathstroke. And he studied Batman and mimicked him, still failed. Batman was still fast enough to beat him. And in their 3rd fight, they fought in H2H to a stalemate, so Batman just called in batgirl to end it faster. So unless there's proof DS sees in like the slowest slow motion, his "enhanced" reflexes wouldn't play a huge part since Batman beat someone who sees much faster than DS. And in skill, they were equal, Batman still came out on top. DS isn't even as good, why is he coming out on top? You called it! PIS. He shouldn't be. Batman should be taking the H2H by a mile. But..y'know... Bias writers.

I also recall you bringing up DS beating Hawkeye. Batmans done the same he defeats Hawkman while under Despero's mind control (JLA #119).

He also takes down Gorilla Grodd with a kick (JLA: Classified #2).

Moving on.

"Seriously? You're arguing against Deathstroke, but you don't even know one of his most prominent abilities."

Yeesh, goodness calm down it's one thing, and it's 1 thing that doesn't even matter as I proved above and especially since DS has never even really mentioned it being one of the reasons he's better.

Also Batman beat Brute. A large mindless monster (loosely based off Marvel's Hulk) with super strength and very strong durability. Just to give you an idea of how strong Brute is, here we see him drop Wonder Woman with one punch while she's distracted and has her badly hurt as a result at the time (Justice League America #79). And I will assume Wonder Woman's durability is much better than DS. If you want, we can debate that too. Any who, Batman dominates and hurts Brute using just his martial arts skill in combination with his striking power (Convergence Batman & Robin #2).

http://s289.photobucket.com/user/darknight2k/media/Skills%20Misc/conbatmanrobin2-batmanvsbrute6.jpg.html

He even whoops Diana in H2H combat despite her speed and durability. And she herself is also a master combatant. (JLA Secret Files #3)

"From there we get into Slade's showings against teams, such as going untouched by a team of Cassandra Cain, Nightwing, Ravager, Donna Troy, and Jericho in Teen Titans Vol. 3 #46:"

Batman moved super humanly fast by using Aquaman as a human shield against Green Lantern's blast AFTER its fired at him despite his back being turned to begin with plus his attention being on Aquaman and Martian Manhunter at the time. Afterwords, he takes down Green Lantern using a cable line before he could do anything else (Batman Confidential #53)

"A. Batman doesn't have a history of using pressure points and nerve strikes against established fighters in general. That's not on Slade. Not at all."

Did it on Cassandra. He quickly KOes a Kobra operative with a nerve strike to the neck (Batman 12 Cent Adventure). Knocks out 4-armed meta with a 2 finger touch (Green Arrow & Black Canary #10). While trying to reason with him, he easily defeats Green Arrow with a nerve pinch disabling his arm then re-enabling it to move again with a touch (Legends of the Dark Knight #128). Batman doesn't have a history with using this on established fighters? If you want, I could name more. Like he also defeats a Kirigi trained ninja with the lethal vibrating palm technique which he modified to knock the ninja out instead of killing him as he mentions after their battle (Batman #431).

"I have yet to see the scan of him denting that wall".

http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll223/darknight2k/batcrystal2.jpg

He flipped Grundy over his head with one arm, which is largely due to Grundy's own momentum. We don't even know what Grundy weighs anyway"

He weighs around 700 lbs. And unless grundys momentum went up in the air(y'know, because his momentum needs to be UP to be flipped due to momentum), which it wasn't, then Batman did this on his own strength. He lifted and flipped him. And beat him with that 1 move at that. Batman also held down two bulls to survive a stampede. Holding each down with 1 arm.http://s289.photobucket.com/albums/ll223/darknight2k/Power-Strength/Strength/?action=view&current=batman282-batvstampede2.jpg

You may argue "he used the grapple gun!", But honestly, that grapple gun did but so much. Batman stopped a buffalo going full speed with his own strength, then holds both of them down, each under 1 arm to keep them from getting back up.

"which is much more measurable and hence better than Bruce's Grundy feat"

Ok. How 'bout this:

While fighting Killer Croc (enhanced Hush virus version), he impales his own shoulder by mistake yet despite the wound he still manages to physically overpower and defeat Croc with his bare hands by cracking Croc's jaw open (Gotham After Midnight).

Your first impressions may not think this is impressive, but he's opening and cracking the jaw of an enhanced crocodile-man with a weakened arm. The bite force on a regular crocodile would snap a "grand piano". A greatly ENHANCED one is just some sort of berserk bite force, which Batman tanked through.

"With all of his upper body strength, yes"

Lol, sure. If you say so. Batmans even punched a cop through a brick wall. And he didn't even hit the wall directly with his fist. So I'm most certainly sure if he hit a brick wall directly, it would shatter. Like so. Unless of course you want proof Batman breaks brick walls too..? I'd be happy to provide.

"Literally just quit crying. That's how all comic fights go."

No ones crying. I just pointed out the flaws and bias in these fights. Obviously you know I'm right based on your response but just use the excuse "EVERYTHING ELSE IS LIKE THAT TOO!" when it isn't. Ignoring the bias and bad writing in their fights.

"Anyway, you're arguing that all of their fights are invalid for purely thematic reasons. Even then, they are still based off of your own interpretation of the thematic elements of the respective characters. You're trying to prove your own idea of what should happen with in-comic stuff as much as you can, but you either ignore or flat out deny anything that suggests anything else."

Ironic considering your last statement. (Quote above this one) I just didn't get down to using the scans yet. If you wanted them you coulda asked. :p. Anyway, I didn't ignore it. I just debated against using reasoning. Now I'm throwing you facts to back up the reasoning.

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#86 Posted by foxerdes (10159 posts) - - Show Bio

@laughingbatman: What if DCEU Slade's mother name is Martha? I would love it. >:)

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#87 Posted by laughingbatman (1827 posts) - - Show Bio

@foxerdes: lol then Bruce, Slade, and Clark can all gather on Tuesday afternoons for a scrapbook club and talk about how much they each love their Marthas

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#88 Posted by Outside_85 (23518 posts) - - Show Bio

It's there because:

  • Deathstroke is physically on par with Bruce
  • Has far better reflexes
  • Doesn't have any tics that makes him readable
  • Is very intelligent
  • Is still able to do everything he can with a considerable handicap
  • And regularly takes on more powerful adversaries and usually walks away from it
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#89 Edited by BatmanPlusJay (4027 posts) - - Show Bio

@outside_85: You do realize Batman does each and every one of those things, right? Except have enhanced reflexes, which I already proved are pretty much useless. Try reading post #85. And after that, try reading the earlier arguments because we already went over most of those.

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#90 Edited by BatmanPlusJay (4027 posts) - - Show Bio

@itouchedtheboat:

"still holding back enough for DS to take advantage of more than half of the time."

No. It's PIS(Plot induced stupidity). And I'm serious from a non bias pov. Read my most recent reply #85. I explained how many of the things DS had so called "advantages" in, are things Batman already beat in the past. BUT like I said, when Batman fights DS, he MUST be nerfed. Like wtf? Just read my #85 post. I got a lot of proof in there to back up my claims.

"Batman can take out 95% of the people in his respective tier lvl but wont do it in their first fight because he doesnt want to accidentally kill them."

I already explained Batman doesn't care. It doesn't matter if it's Harley, or Joker, or the penguin. Batman hardly ever underestimates people. And going against DEATHSTROKE? Batman is well aware that if he holds back against him he could be beaten. You're saying he isn't taking DS, an enhanced super soldier who's the best assassin in the DC universe right now and knows his fair share of martial arts to at least challenge Batman more than most, seriously? He isn't going all out? I agree he isn't going all out but as I explained he doesn't care what happens to anyone who's a thug as long as they aren't dead. He even broke both of some other Meta-humans legs because he knew he couldn't kick back on him.

"He goes crazy on Harley and Joker because he's aware of their threshold and will push them almost all the way."

He goes out on everyone. No excuses. Name anyone Batman "holds back from" and underestimates. No one. But the writers are writing Batman as if he's starstruck by DS EVERY single fight. Like what? Does Batman forget how to learn from mistakes when fighting DS? Does his skill drop below half when fighting only DS? Is his overall skill dropped by a mile? Because that's what it looks like. As I have shown above, many times Batman has beaten or neutralized people very easily who are just as good, or surpasses DS by a mile in a certain category.

I understand what you're saying but I disagree.

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#91 Posted by Outside_85 (23518 posts) - - Show Bio

@outside_85: You do realize Batman does each and every one of those things, right? Except have enhanced reflexes, which I already proved are pretty much useless. Try reading post #85. And after that, try reading the earlier arguments because we already went over most of those.

Yes, only he is worse at them, because while Batman does it all through hard work, Deathstroke cheats with a serum.

And no, I dont think I will because if having better reflexes is not worthy of consideration, you really don't know what you are talking about. Why do you think characters like Deathstroke and Cassandra Cain are such high-end combatants? It's one thing being able to accurately predict someone else's moves before they are made, it's something else being able to actually react on that information in a split second.

And again, when it comes to fights, it shouldn't be a 50/50 split between the two, because Batman's regulars are most often regular non-powered criminals he outclasses in brains and brawn. Occasionally he runs into someone who can outbrawn him, but usually his brain is enough to come up with a counter if allowed a bit of preperation. Then when he moves on to JL stuff, he usually just comes prepared for the enemy when he makes his mark or lets the team buy him the time needed to come up with something. Deathstroke on the other hand can take on a team of metahumans and often beat them, on his own, pretty much from the word go.

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#92 Posted by kgb725 (18766 posts) - - Show Bio

Batman fans should accept he's inferior to Deathstroke. Their history suggests as much

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#93 Posted by foxerdes (10159 posts) - - Show Bio
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#94 Posted by StormShadow_X (16694 posts) - - Show Bio

Slades always been better as a combative threat. Even Bruce couldn't do the things Slade does without prep.

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#95 Posted by ScouterV (7764 posts) - - Show Bio

Honestly, what I'm seeing from the two camps is this:

Deathstroke Fans: "He's physically superior, a skilled martial-artist and killer, and one of the most intelligent foes Batman has faced."

Batman Fans: "Yeah, but Batman is almost as good physically, kind of better mentally, and plus plot armor."

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#96 Edited by Ready_4_Madness (15890 posts) - - Show Bio

Didn't Slade say he can drop Batman with 3 moves but he didn't because he had both eyes. He fought Batman while being at a disadvantage and Bruce still had a whole lot of trouble.

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#97 Posted by TheArchon (1184 posts) - - Show Bio

Deathstroke was always better. Pre-52 and New-52.

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#98 Posted by JediXMan (42486 posts) - - Show Bio

@jedixman: ?? What do you mean by that? Personally I've came across many confident DS debaters.

I have not; most just rely on the same scans and don't put nearly as much effort into analysis. Also, honestly, my bar for what qualifies as a confident / competent debater is probably higher.

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#99 Posted by DigitalShooter9 (3112 posts) - - Show Bio

First off I agree that in an in character fight, Slade would beat Batman in a very close fight for a majority. Ideally the fight would be similar to their rooftop battle.

However in their most recent fight Slade implied that Batman could have killed him if he wanted to.

There is a common misconception among people when they talk about the Deathstroke vs Batman battle. The consensus is that Slade has superior physicals to Batman and that his intellect and skills are close enough to give him an advantage.

However this isn't entirely the case. Slade does have an advantage in physicals but that advantage is easily countered by Batman's skill advantage. In fact, the skill gap between the two is larger than the physicals gap. Physicals are not the reason Slade beats Bruce. The reason is simply morals. Slade is an assasin trained to kill while Batman is trained to fight meaning he has limits. He only uses his skills to a certain extent when he fights as he avoids killing.

In fact, Slade mentions this when he beats Batman in the rooftops. He says that he is stronger and faster than Batman but most importantly, he is trained to kill while Batman is trained to fight. This makes him much more effective in fights.

This explains how Slade admitted that had Batman been willing to kill, he would have beaten him. This happens in their recent fight where Batman outfights Slade and catches an opening which he could have followed with a death blow but doesn't due to his morals.

Bottom line is that Slade only beats Batman because Batman doesn't fight to kill.

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#100 Edited by Elijah_C_Washington (4618 posts) - - Show Bio

@batmanplusjay: Thanks for citing the issues you did. Makes my job a lot easier. Before I get into that, though:

Try reading post #85.

This is rather undeserved.

Staging a robbery, he has Batman purposely fight a hired team of highly skilled martial artists posing as bank robbers to test his skill. Meanwhile, from afar above the event taking place he's shown studying Batman extensively by recording him fighting via his lenses which enabled him to record Batman's combat techniques (Batman #582). Now being prepared to fight Batman in their 1st battle he's then able to perfectly mimic Batman's skills and re-use them against him. Zeiss even managed to get the slight upper hand although he's still unsuccessful in beating Batman (Batman #583). Here it is:

1. Zeiss can only see the world in slow motion when he has his goggles on, as was stated on the exact page you've cited from Catwoman Vol. 3 #30:

No Caption Provided

Moreover, it's apparent that Zeiss isn't actively seeing the world in slow motion all of the time, even with his goggles on. For example, Bruce was capable of dodging and blocking a good amount of his hits in Batman Vol. 1 #583, but when it's explicit that he's seeing in slow motion, Bruce is absolutely helpless as Zeiss makes him eat his own mace:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3

Finally, in his first two fights with Batman, Philo's goggles were destroyed. In fact, in the second one, they were destroyed by a stray bullet, not by Batman. Furthermore, it's also plausible that Philo's perception and reaction isn't the same as his overall combat speed, or that he's just a jobber through and through. The latter is consistent with a number of his other showings, from what I've read.

He has much much better reflexes than deathstroke.

Not from what I've seen, so I'm going to ask you to prove it. Slade's fan showing from The New Titans #75 is already way better than everything you've presented for Zeiss, as well as everything I found of his on my own. In the way of bullet-timing, Slade was capable of dodging a bullet before it even left the barrel in Deathstroke Vol. 1 #4:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

In fact, still in regards to bullet-timing, Slade has done everything besides catch one. Even then, he's done better, such as cutting assault rifle rounds out of the air from multiple angles in Deathstroke Vol. 3 #11.

And he studied Batman and mimicked him, still failed.

This doesn't mean he was Batman's equal in skill. Bruce completely blows past him in experience, and he is also consistently displayed as over confident, with Batman even commenting on it. Compare that to Deathstroke, who has a full decade's worth of experience on Batman and keeps an incredibly level-head in combat. Not to mention all of his skill showings and the fact that he has an actual track record. Slade wouldn't even struggle with Zeiss.

So unless there's proof DS sees in like the slowest slow motion, his "enhanced" reflexes wouldn't play a huge part since Batman beat someone who sees much faster than DS.

You put 'enhanced' in quotations like I made it up. I'm also unsure of what you mean by 'the slowest slow motion'. Regardless, it's been stated twice that Slade sees in slow motion, most notably in in The New Titans #73 when he crossed a room almost instantly:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

Furthermore, there's no delay between Slade's perception and his action, as he explained in The New Titans #62 while making a fool out of Beast Boy in combat:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3

You have yet to prove that Zeiss sees, reacts, or fights faster than Deathstroke, let alone a ridiculous amount faster like you're claiming.

I also recall you bringing up DS beating Hawkeye. Batmans done the same he defeats Hawkman while under Despero's mind control (JLA #119).

No, I cited him outfighting Ebrax, who in turn one-shotted Hawkman. Slade did make a fool out of Carter in Identity Crisis #3, however.

He also takes down Gorilla Grodd with a kick (JLA: Classified #2).

Slade has feats like that, but they're all PIS.

Yeesh, goodness calm down it's one thing, and it's 1 thing that doesn't even matter as I proved above and especially since DS has never even really mentioned it being one of the reasons he's better.

I'm not uncalm, I'm shit-talking. Moreover, the point isn't that Deathstroke never said it's why he beat Batman, it's that you're arguing against a character you have so little knowledge on, you're unaware of one of his most basic abilities.

Also Batman beat Brute. A large mindless monster (loosely based off Marvel's Hulk) with super strength and very strong durability. Just to give you an idea of how strong Brute is, here we see him drop Wonder Woman with one punch while she's distracted and has her badly hurt as a result at the time (Justice League America #79). And I will assume Wonder Woman's durability is much better than DS. If you want, we can debate that too. Any who, Batman dominates and hurts Brute using just his martial arts skill in combination with his striking power (Convergence Batman & Robin #2).

1. You're intentionally selling Brute way too high.

2. Brute isn't comparable to Deathstroke in the slightest. This would be like me bringing up Deathstroke beating Mammoth as a reason why he would defeat Batman. They're nothing alike, bringing it up is pointless.

3. Batman didn't beat Brute. Your scans are cropped to hell. This is how that fight actually went:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

Not only did Brute's strength render Batman completely helpless, but he couldn't knock him out with all of those punches, despite a mere double punch from Red Hood and Robin accomplishing just that.

Batman moved super humanly fast by using Aquaman as a human shield against Green Lantern's blast AFTER its fired at him despite his back being turned to begin with plus his attention being on Aquaman and Martian Manhunter at the time. Afterwords, he takes down Green Lantern using a cable line before he could do anything else (Batman Confidential #53)

You're using a completely unusable showing.

Did it on Cassandra.

Who wasn't an established fighter at that point.

He quickly KOes a Kobra operative with a nerve strike to the neck (Batman 12 Cent Adventure). Knocks out 4-armed meta with a 2 finger touch (Green Arrow & Black Canary #10).

Who are still fodder.

While trying to reason with him, he easily defeats Green Arrow with a nerve pinch disabling his arm then re-enabling it to move again with a touch (Legends of the Dark Knight #128).

Who's an established fighter, but not comparable to Deathstroke at all.

Batman doesn't have a history with using this on established fighters? If you want, I could name more. Like he also defeats a Kirigi trained ninja with the lethal vibrating palm technique which he modified to knock the ninja out instead of killing him as he mentions after their battle (Batman #431).

Who is also fodder. My claim that Batman doesn't consistently use pressure and nerve strikes on established fighters still holds.

http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll223/darknight2k/batcrystal2.jpg

So you're completely speculating that it's crystal, then? There's certainly nothing in the scan that suggests that.

He weighs around 700 lbs.

Source?

And unless grundys momentum went up in the air(y'know, because his momentum needs to be UP to be flipped due to momentum), which it wasn't, then Batman did this on his own strength. He lifted and flipped him. And beat him with that 1 move at that.

Regardless of the real life science, it had to be momentum. Batman doesn't have the strength to draw blood on someone who took on Gotham and Gotham Girl at the same time.

While fighting Killer Croc (enhanced Hush virus version), he impales his own shoulder by mistake yet despite the wound he still manages to physically overpower and defeat Croc with his bare hands by cracking Croc's jaw open (Gotham After Midnight).

Your first impressions may not think this is impressive, but he's opening and cracking the jaw of an enhanced crocodile-man with a weakened arm. The bite force on a regular crocodile would snap a "grand piano". A greatly ENHANCED one is just some sort of berserk bite force, which Batman tanked through.

Again with the unnecessary quotation marks. A grand piano looks very different from a regular piano, and the one Slade threw could've literally only been the former:

No Caption Provided

Moving on, did Bruce actually overpower Croc's full bite force? If not, why does that matter? Breaking a bone is completely different. Either way, I've already provided Deathstroke catching Batman's punch, which highlights the strength disparity enough. In addition, I've already provided superior striking feats of Slade's.

Lol, sure. If you say so. Batmans even punched a cop through a brick wall. And he didn't even hit the wall directly with his fist. So I'm most certainly sure if he hit a brick wall directly, it would shatter. Like so. Unless of course you want proof Batman breaks brick walls too..? I'd be happy to provide.

I didn't say Batman couldn't break a brick wall. Even Cassandra Cain has done that, and she isn't as strong as Batman, let alone Deathstroke. I also didn't show Slade breaking a brick wall, I showed him climbing the side of a building by driving his fingers into its side, which is way above what Batman can do.

No ones crying. I just pointed out the flaws and bias in these fights. Obviously you know I'm right based on your response but just use the excuse "EVERYTHING ELSE IS LIKE THAT TOO!" when it isn't. Ignoring the bias and bad writing in their fights.

No, you didn't. You made up an excuse to disregard their previous fights:

If Batman has fought Slade before and is well aware of his abilities, why do the writers continue to make him recreate the same mistakes as before? Batman could use evasive maneuvers and his agility to give him a bigger upper hand in H2H combat.

You're complaining (I.E. crying) that Batman didn't fight Slade completely differently, in using evasive maneuvers and agility to give him a win. Disregarding that there's zero reason why that would work on Slade to begin with, that's not how comic fights go in general, which is what I stated. Specifically, when's the last time Batman did that with an actual fighter? Bane? No. Bronze Tiger? No. Nightwing? Nope. Red Hood? Still no. Seriously, Batman and Deathstroke don't even have their guard up in the vast majority of their fights, and that goes for a lot, lot more characters.

Comic creators aren't concerned with making fights look realistic, they're concerned with making them look cool, and it's always been that way. It's not plot, it's the norm, so get over it.

Anyway, I didn't ignore it. I just debated against using reasoning.

No, you have ignored quite a bit from both of my posts. My Bronze Tiger example is still way more concrete than you're Philo Zeiss one, and you didn't even comment on it. Same goes for my argument about Slade's healing, the stealth bit, and so on.

Now I'm throwing you facts to back up the reasoning.

No, you're spamming from respect threads, and in doing so using some of the most downright PIS and out-of-context instances available on the entire internet.