Where Ashoka Tano Stands

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kbroskywalker

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Edited By kbroskywalker

Folks, Ashoka needs some respect. I've heard people argue that ventress could beat her, statements saying maul would stomp her. The problem assessing ashoka is the lack of material on her. Prime ashoka as of rebels has been in three fights. One of those fights is meaningless as all of the people we are comparing her to would also beat those two inquisitors easily. So really we have to draw mostly from her showing against vader. I do think however we can estimate where she is based on these.

Force powers: Prime ashoka hasn't used the force all that much. Considering that anyone ashoka is being compared to could ragdoll inqusitors, we really only have one force feat, pushing vader. This feat alone however is enough to say she is extremely powerful. Could kenobi or maul do it?(non canon comics are non canon) Doubtful, Vader is extremely powerful, he is canonically 80% as powerful as sidious. has casually flung tie fighters with ease, has force choked people through holograms, has used the force to survive being trapped under a collapsed palace for weeks, has flung enemy aircraft while actively enganged in dog fights, so force pushing him requires a lot of power. As vader and ashoka both landed force pushes on each other, is it possible the equal? Its possible but with only one feat from ashoka, its not something i can say with any degree of confidence. What we know is she is at lease as powerful as kenobi or maul, possibly as powerful as the likes of windu, and possibly, but but unlikely as powerful as vader. Lets take the middle,and put her at the level of mace and dooku. Due to more feats, for now she would be a bit below dooku or windu, though not necessarily outclassed and if we see more of her(which we should), her being placed higher is not out of the question.

Dueling abilities:

Now vader is stated to be in his prime. So ashoka contending with vader is impressive. Lets take a look into why. In my opinion,Vader is essentially a more advanced dooku. Like dooku, vader became the definitive master in a form and found ways to combat every single other form and compensate for the weaknesses of that form. What sets them apart is that vader implemented all the lightsaber forms in a hybrid technique. I can't think of anyone at the top of my head who did this. Vader also was able to utilize his armor and superior strength while compensating for his speed disadvantage and his one weakness in his armor, his resperator. Vader could deal with multiple opponents and also could deal with single opponents extremely well. He has dueled up to 7 jedi and has beaten the likes of obi wan kenobi, the definitive master of soresu, and luke skywalker. In fact the tfa novelization states he only lost to luke in rotj because he was holding back. This category is where ashoka is edged out. While he was unable to land hits on her, and she landed two physical strikes on him, one of those was on a distracted vader, and the other had no effect on him. Vader was pushing her back throughout the fight. However, ashoka's ability to contend with vader puts her at an extremely high skill level. I see her dueling abilities as comparable to anakin and dooku. Both would lose duels with vader, but both would avoid being easily overpowered. Dueling wise i could see kenobi matching vader with skill, but his inferior physique would give vader the edge as it did vs ahsoka.

So what is my final assesment? well i think she is between a tier 8 and 9. She is outmatched by vader, but is not outclassed. She is above the likes of kenobi, but he'd give her a really good fight

Next up, kenobi, its time this bamf gets the respect he deserves.

Opinions, comments, put em below.

Also to see my where does darth maul stand blog, check out my blog

edit: I've updated it

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Is she dead?

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kbroskywalker

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Is she dead?

its not a sure thing but it seems like she is alive as after the fight there was a shot of what appears to be her walking

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alextheboss

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I think we should wait for season 3 before saying Ahsoka is stronger than Maul. The episodes finally was supposed to be centered around her and this may have been her last appearance in Rebels so they wanted to take her out in a bang. Maul may fight Vader next season helping us compare them better.

There is also evidence Maul is stronger since he did better against the inquisitors. Also I saw something from the star wars website where it said putting Ezra with Maul after splitting up was the logical choice implying Maul was the strongest.

I'm going to wait before making a final decision on that but she is definitely in Maul/Kenobi tier now.

IMO

average jedi master<Grievous, Ventress, Savage<=>Strong Jedi master (most council members and Qui-gon)<Ahskoka<=>Maul<=>Kenobi<Dooku<=Anakin<Mace<=>Vader<Yoda<=>Sidoius

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I think we should wait for season 3 before saying Ahsoka is stronger than Maul. The episodes finally was supposed to be centered around her and this may have been her last appearance in Rebels so they wanted to take her out in a bang. Maul may fight Vader next season helping us compare them better.

There is also evidence Maul is stronger since he did better against the inquisitors. Also I saw something from the star wars website where it said putting Ezra with Maul after splitting up was the logical choice implying Maul was the strongest.

I'm going to wait before making a final decision on that but she is definitely in Maul/Kenobi tier now.

IMO

average jedi master<Grievous, Ventress, Savage<=>Strong Jedi master (most council members and Qui-gon)<Ahskoka<=>Maul<=>Kenobi<Dooku<=Anakin<Mace<=>Vader<Yoda<=>Sidoius

stomping two inqusitors(as she did in her first fight) seems on par with keeping 3 inqusitors at bay at the same time. I also think for high powered characters, feats for inqusitors should be dicounted as we can assume either character could replicate them. I also think any accurate depiction of maul vs vader would have maul lose quite easily. Maul is below dooku, and dooku has ragdolled people on maul's level like kenobi. Vader is a advanced version of dooku who has more power tk wise. If vader wanted to, he should easily be able to force choke him seeing as less powerful force users like kenobi have broken his force barrier. While i do think seson three might flesh things out, based on what we have, vader's bout with ashoka seems to imply that ashoka has a clear edge vs maul especially considering that filoni and even maul himself stated he could not take vader.

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@kbroskywalker: Ahsoka and Kanan should of instantly beat the 5th and 8th brother, but I will say that was more plot than anything.

Vader didn't force stomp Obi-wan in ep 4 and he was definitely on guard. Dooku isn't as strong as Vader and he really only rag-dolled Kenobi because they wanted to get him out of the fight so Anakin could kill Dooku.

Dooku basically recognized Maul as an equal to him in the son of dathomir, but Maul is still below Dooku in knowledge in the force and lightsaber skill. Maul has really high physical durability and endurance which could keep him the fight against Vader or Dooku if he gets knocked around with the force.

Also more will be revealed in Ahsoka's new book. It will most likely have her encounter with Maul in it. Judging by what is said in Rebels she had to run from him but she wasn't in her prime then.

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@kbroskywalker: Ahsoka and Kanan should of instantly beat the 5th and 8th brother, but I will say that was more plot than anything.

Vader didn't force stomp Obi-wan in ep 4 and he was definitely on guard. Dooku isn't as strong as Vader and he really only rag-dolled Kenobi because they wanted to get him out of the fight so Anakin could kill Dooku.

Dooku basically recognized Maul as an equal to him in the son of dathomir, but Maul is still below Dooku in knowledge in the force and lightsaber skill. Maul has really high physical durability and endurance which could keep him the fight against Vader or Dooku if he gets knocked around with the force.

Also more will be revealed in Ahsoka's new book. It will most likely have her encounter with Maul in it. Judging by what is said in Rebels she had to run from him but she wasn't in her prime then.

maul's constititution is weaker than kenobi's and i'm not sure how it will fare against the dude who lifted a tie fighter with his bare hands, i can't see someone who lost to an out of shape kenobi contending with vader.

Do you think ashoka has a shot vs anakin,?i see them as about equal based on what little we have

I think maul's story should end against kenobi by the way with kenobi considering whether to spare him and kenobi eventually doing so

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@kbroskywalker: Maul never lost to an old Kenobi. Is Vader lifting a tie fighter with his bare hands canon? If it is that is a massive outliar.

Ahsoka can put up a good fight against Anakin, but she would loose in the end.

I hope they make an Obi-wan spin off where Maul is the main antagonist. After failing to seduce Ezra he goes off into hiding, possibly coincidentally on Tatooine or maybe he could go their for another reason. their he senses Luke and he wants to make him his apprentice but Obi-wan gets in his way so they have one final duel where Obi-wan barely wins. It would be kind of like Old Wounds but much more fleshed out and with different motives.

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kbroskywalker

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@kbroskywalker: Maul never lost to an old Kenobi. Is Vader lifting a tie fighter with his bare hands canon? If it is that is a massive outliar.

Ahsoka can put up a good fight against Anakin, but she would loose in the end.

I hope they make an Obi-wan spin off where Maul is the main antagonist. After failing to seduce Ezra he goes off into hiding, possibly coincidentally on Tatooine or maybe he could go their for another reason. their he senses Luke and he wants to make him his apprentice but Obi-wan gets in his way so they have one final duel where Obi-wan barely wins. It would be kind of like Old Wounds but much more fleshed out and with different motives.

while old wounds is non canon, the fight is referenced in legends continuity, in that fight ben kenobi beat maul, it is canon, happened in this season's first episode.

Nah i don't want it to be close. I want it to be kenobi getting pissed off and on the brink of choking him but then remembering he's a jedi

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@kbroskywalker: Ahsoka and Kanan should of instantly beat the 5th and 8th brother, but I will say that was more plot than anything.

Vader didn't force stomp Obi-wan in ep 4 and he was definitely on guard. Dooku isn't as strong as Vader and he really only rag-dolled Kenobi because they wanted to get him out of the fight so Anakin could kill Dooku.

Dooku basically recognized Maul as an equal to him in the son of dathomir, but Maul is still below Dooku in knowledge in the force and lightsaber skill. Maul has really high physical durability and endurance which could keep him the fight against Vader or Dooku if he gets knocked around with the force.

Also more will be revealed in Ahsoka's new book. It will most likely have her encounter with Maul in it. Judging by what is said in Rebels she had to run from him but she wasn't in her prime then.

also filoni stated that maul can't contend with vader

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alextheboss

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@kbroskywalker: It wouldn't make sense if the Obi-wan Maul fight isn't close from a movie stand point or a continuity standpoint. For the movie standpoint the finale needs to be epic to increase ratings and sales. From a continuity standpoint Maul and Kenobi have been shown to be near equal and it doesn't seem like Maul got any weaker, while by ep 4 Obi-wan is clearly weaker than he was. I also feel like at this point in time Obi-wan really can't be tempted by the dark side.

Filino stating Maul can't contend with Vader is basically just him saying Maul can't win, and neither could Ahsoka. Filoni mentioned how he really thought about having Maul and Vader fight, and I highly doubt he was thinking about Vader just stomping Maul. Before Ahsoka fought Vader she didn't have any feats that put her near Vader's level, but she fought on his level anyways. Maul could fight on Vader's level too and it would make just as much sense.

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@kbroskywalker: It wouldn't make sense if the Obi-wan Maul fight isn't close from a movie stand point or a continuity standpoint. For the movie standpoint the finale needs to be epic to increase ratings and sales. From a continuity standpoint Maul and Kenobi have been shown to be near equal and it doesn't seem like Maul got any weaker, while by ep 4 Obi-wan is clearly weaker than he was. I also feel like at this point in time Obi-wan really can't be tempted by the dark side.

Filino stating Maul can't contend with Vader is basically just him saying Maul can't win, and neither could Ahsoka. Filoni mentioned how he really thought about having Maul and Vader fight, and I highly doubt he was thinking about Vader just stomping Maul. Before Ahsoka fought Vader she didn't have any feats that put her near Vader's level, but she fought on his level anyways. Maul could fight on Vader's level too and it would make just as much sense.

nah it would be interesting to see obi wan use his anger, the movie should be about obi wan flirting with the darkside, i'm imagining that maul and kenobi are even at first, but maul says something real infuriating, and obi wan has a "let me show just how powerful i really am moment" and the climax should be kenobi on the brink of killing maul, but making the jedi like dicision. Also while they're usually even, kenobi has had moments when he was well above maul, when he fought anakin, when he fought grevious in rots, those were moments where i think kenobi could havve decisively beat maul

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#15  Edited By alextheboss

@kbroskywalker: I doubt they would do that since they would want an epic finale for the movie, plus Kenobi didn't even give into his rage when fighting Anakin so I doubt he would against Maul.

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@kbroskywalker: I doubt they would do that since they would want an epic finale for the movie, plus Kenobi didn't even give into his rage when fighting Anakin so I doubt he would against Maul.

that would be epic, and having what anakin happened plus now maul would be a great way to show that kenobi has a dark side and it makes sense he has an internal struggle. Not only would this serve as a way to develop obi wan and have obi wan become the quintisenntial jedi he is.

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@alexthebossI've edited the blog

I'm putting ahsoka for now as between kenobi and anakin

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#20  Edited By decaf_wizard

I put Ahsoka at Obi-Wan's level in sabers. Ventress level in the force. No way is she at Mace level. His Vappad puts him above her because of its effectiveness. His feats are also above hers, some by quite a bit

Like dooku, vader became the definitive master in a form and found ways to combat every single other form and compensate for the weaknesses of that form. What sets them apart is that vader implemented all the lightsaber forms in a hybrid technique.

Vader never incorperated all of the forms in his style. It was heavily based of an extremely agressive variant of Form V and used elements of Ataru, Niman and Juyo. If I can recall correctly. It wasn't like he used a completely hybrid technique.

Lets take the middle,and put her at the level of mace and dooku. Due to more feats, for now she would be a bit below dooku or windu

Ahsoka needs more high end force feats to put her on that level. The argument could be made, certainly, that she is close to that tier in sabers. However she hasn't really done anything force wise besides force shove Vader which either of these two could easily manage. I will reserve my judgement on her teiring and put her comfortably at Obi-Wan level. May be lowballing, but I want to see more.

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@decaf_wizard:

Ventress level in the force.

Pushing vader casually a decent distance may be something that the likes of mace can replicate, but ventress, not a chance. Kenobi who vader outclasses force wise was capable of breaking out of tk grips and deflecting force blasts from a hindered anakin(but note rots anakin>tcw anakin). Padawan anakin>ventress powerwise.

Ahsoka needs more high end force feats to put her on that level.

Which is why I put her below them.

And as thats really the only time ahsoka has ever gotten a chance to do anything relevant(v maul wasn't really a fight, and inqusitors are fodder), its unfair to assume its an outlier. And its not like vader ever ragdolled her or anything, he simply force pushed her over the edge.

I will reserve my judgement on her teiring and put her comfortably at Obi-Wan level.

Fair enough, i put her between anakin and kenobi as kenobi despite his massive amount of exposure hasn't done anything that surpasses or matches the vader shove feat, but really as thats ahsoka's only showing its not enough to put ahsoka on anakin level.

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Pushing vader casually a decent distance may be something that the likes of mace can replicate, but ventress, not a chance. Kenobi who vader outclasses force wise was capable of breaking out of tk grips and deflecting force blasts from a hindered anakin(but note rots anakin>tcw anakin).

I think you are somewhat lowballing what Ventress is capable of when pushed to it. She is pretty powerful and has done some serious stuff when enraged. I think force pushing Vader is within her ability, although she would be brutalised in saber combat

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Padawan anakin>ventress powerwise.

Not consistantly.

And as thats really the only time ahsoka has ever gotten a chance to do anything relevant(v maul wasn't really a fight, and inqusitors are fodder), its unfair to assume its an outlier. And its not like vader ever ragdolled her or anything, he simply force pushed her over the edge.

Well its not only that. Its pretty ovbious that abusing the force isn't Ahsoka's style. She isnt somebody like Ventress, Yoda, Dooku, Vader or Sheev, who will try to abuse the force whenever they get the chance. It just isn't her style. For example it is perfectly possible she could've used the force alone to shame the inquisitors, she just didn't.

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I'd put Ashoka below both Kenobi and Maul, somewhere around Ventress level.

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kbroskywalker

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@decaf_wizard:

Ventress was rage amped and its a massive outlier she never came evn close to replicating, unlike ahsoka, there are actually tons of showings that clearly show she isn't replicating that

Well its not only that. Its pretty ovbious that abusing the force isn't Ahsoka's style

She doesn't abuse it to the level of say sidious or dooku, but in both of her full fights, she did use it offensively which vs kenobi is pretty significant because kenobi doesn't use the force offensively

I'd put Ashoka below both Kenobi and Maul, somewhere around Ventress level.

yea i seriously disagree with that

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@sirdrprofessor said:

I'd put Ashoka below both Kenobi and Maul, somewhere around Ventress level.

yea i seriously disagree with that

Sorry you disagree, but IMO one force shove on Vader doesn't automatically make her superior.

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#27  Edited By kbroskywalker

@sirdrprofessor said:
@kbroskywalker said:

@sirdrprofessor said:

I'd put Ashoka below both Kenobi and Maul, somewhere around Ventress level.

yea i seriously disagree with that

Sorry you disagree, but IMO one force shove on Vader doesn't automatically make her superior.

contending and matching vader for lengthy periodd of time does.

And considering vader outclasses the likes of kenobi who force wise could deflec blasts from anakin and break out of his tk grip(yes anakin was hindered but rots anakin is>tcw anakin), ventress isn't replicating that without circumstantial aid(like her rage boost that inexplicably allowed her to force choke anakin and kenobi)

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@sirdrprofessor said:
@kbroskywalker said:

@sirdrprofessor said:

I'd put Ashoka below both Kenobi and Maul, somewhere around Ventress level.

yea i seriously disagree with that

Sorry you disagree, but IMO one force shove on Vader doesn't automatically make her superior.

contending and matching vader for lengthy periodd of time does.

And considering vader outclasses the likes of kenobi who force wise could deflec blasts from anakin and break out of his tk grip(yes anakin was hindered but rots anakin is>tcw anakin), ventress isn't replicating that.

And Ben Kenobi matched Vader for a lengthy period of time as well. You're too quick to assume Ashoka's tk is equal to Vader's tk.

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@kbroskywalker said:
@sirdrprofessor said:
@kbroskywalker said:

@sirdrprofessor said:

I'd put Ashoka below both Kenobi and Maul, somewhere around Ventress level.

yea i seriously disagree with that

Sorry you disagree, but IMO one force shove on Vader doesn't automatically make her superior.

contending and matching vader for lengthy periodd of time does.

And considering vader outclasses the likes of kenobi who force wise could deflec blasts from anakin and break out of his tk grip(yes anakin was hindered but rots anakin is>tcw anakin), ventress isn't replicating that.

And Ben Kenobi matched Vader for a lengthy period of time as well. You're too quick to assume Ashoka's tk is equal to Vader's tk.

I never did

And Ben Kenobi matched Vader for a lengthy period of time as well.

except that was post prime vader who also was struggling with tpm maul

ahsoka faced prime vader who is now canonically>rotj vader

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#30  Edited By Emperor339

@kbroskywalker:

eh. You can't rly say it was post prime vader who faught ben AND struggled with tpm maul, since Vader was only post prime in canon and the maul thing only happened in legends. Not to mention he faught maul much earlier on in his life.

In canon, this is post prime vader, but no battle happened with maul to indicate such a struggle. His prime was in rebels when he faught Ahsoka, not against Ben.

In legends, he struggled againsnt tpm maul clone very early on in his career well before his prime (after all his prime was in rotj). However, a few years before his legends prime (rotj) he faught Ben to a standstill.

---

So I don't think the two things can be chocked together against Ben.

It's like me saying that Ben faught a very near prime vader (legends) who never struggled with maul (canon).

It'd be unfair to say so.

So don't bring the maul struggle into it, unless you want to consider Vader's legends prime, since that's a legends only event.

---

Jeez, them canonically moving Vader's prime is making a lot of legends/canon comparisons very difficult regarding vader.

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@kbroskywalker:

eh. You can't rly say it was post prime vader who faught ben AND struggled with tpm maul, since Vader was only post prime in canon and the maul thing only happened in legends. Not to mention he faught maul much earlier on in his life.

In canon, this is post prime vader, but no battle happened with maul to indicate such a struggle. His prime was in rebels when he faught Ahsoka, not against Ben.

In legends, he struggled againsnt tpm maul clone very early on in his career well before his prime (after all his prime was in rotj). However, a few years before his legends prime (rotj) he faught Ben to a standstill.

---

So I don't think the two things can be chocked together against Ben.

It's like me saying that Ben faught a very near prime vader (legends) who never struggled with maul (canon).

It'd be unfair to say so.

So don't bring the maul struggle into it, unless you want to consider Vader's legends prime, since that's a legends only event.

---

Jeez, them canonically moving Vader's prime is making a lot of legends/canon comparisons very difficult regarding vader.

I'm discussing composite for this thread(though ahsoka has nothing legends wise)

and vader's prime ebing rebels is canon and it overules outdated legends. As long as legends doesn't contradict canon its fair game for this discussion

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#32  Edited By SirDrProfessor

@sirdrprofessor said:

And Ben Kenobi matched Vader for a lengthy period of time as well. You're too quick to assume Ashoka's tk is equal to Vader's tk.

I never did

And Ben Kenobi matched Vader for a lengthy period of time as well.

except that was post prime vader who also was struggling with tpm maul

ahsoka faced prime vader who is now canonically>rotj vader

You very clearly insinuated only Ashoka and would be able to land a push on Vader. You make sweeping generalizations and present them as if they are facts.

  • For example: You are doubtful Kenobi or Maul could push Vader and you state your opinion that there is no guarantee Anakin or Dooku could either. These are opinions, and you use them to scale Ashoka up to Vader's level. There is no proof people like Maul and Kenobi couldn't land a force attack on Vader.

And what proof is there that Vader was past his prime in ANH. It is only a few years after Rebels and there is no sign he degraded.

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Ahsoka is The Chosen One!

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kbroskywalker

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@sirdrprofessor: i insinuated that ventress could not force push vader

  • For example: You are doubtful Kenobi or Maul could push Vader and you state your opinion that there is no guarantee Anakin or Dooku could either. These are opinions, and you use them to scale Ashoka up to Vader's level. There is no proof people like Maul and Kenobi couldn't land a force attack on Vader.

And what proof is there that Vader was past his prime in ANH. It is only a few years after Rebels and there is no sign he degraded.

I never said what i said was fact, and

guarantee Anakin or Dooku could either.

I meant to edit that out as my assemsent on ahsoka had changed.

Dude a few years can make a lot of difference, aotc kenobi vs rots kenobi, aotc anakin vs rots anakin

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kbroskywalker

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