When is Maul's prime: Darth Maul (TPM) vs Darth Maul (SOD/CW ) vs Darth Maul (Rebels)

Just for clarity, this is not a 3 way fight. This is trying to determine once and for all when Maul is in his prime.

@kbroskywalker@lord_tenebrous@kaore@lightordark@living162637

Rebels. It goes

TPM ~ S4 Maul < S5 Maul ~ SOD Maul ~ S7 Maul < Rebels Maul

I say ~ because there’s not a quantifiable gap

@living162637:

chances are maul is growing stronger throughout tcw/rots the same way dooku/sidious due thanks to the galaxy darkening

Love the headcanon, although thats what you get with disney being a mess.

@reaperace:

What headcanon? Disney is not that hard to scale if you understand what you’re doing

@reaperace: @living162637

I actually agree that Disney is a mess with a lot of contradictory view points but I don't think that he's using headcanon, his view points come from his blog;

Living162637's profile - Blogs (gamespot.com)

@breakingthrones:

That and

>Talzin stated by a guide to have restored Maul to his former glory

>Savage getting smacked by S5 Maul despite being stated equally as formidable as TPM Maul

>DS amping guys like Sidious progressively and weakening LS users

> Rebels Maul stated more powerful and having more anger and hate in Rebels than in CW

I'd argue it goes something like this;

S4 Maul < Rebels Maul <= S7 Maul < TPM Maul <= S5 Maul

Chicken legs definitely hindered Maul's fighting style, he'd had scarcely any time to recover from his injuries and subsequent exile living in squalor.

In Rebels, Maul is aging and has been by his own admission scrounging to survive, so I struggle to imagine he's in comparable physical condition to his younger years. Furthermore he's not been fighting anyone who'll remotely challenge him as far as we've seen and his mental state is extremely fragile. He's a shadow of his former self but at least he's got normal legs.

S7 Maul has been living as the ruler of a planet and is still in his youth, so I imagine he's in his best shape since his injury at the hands of Kenobi, but mentally he's already begun his deterioration to where he ends up in Rebels. Still, he's very clearly a force to be reckoned with and clearly has his wits about him given his ability to unify much of the galaxy's crime under Crimson Dawn.

Maul during his apprenticeship to Darth Sidious is in his physical prime as a 22 year old Zabrak who regularly engages in gruelling physical training and undergoes active study of the dark side. He's capable of defeating Council-tier combatants such as Qui-Gon Jinn, and if not for his own arrogance would've made short work of a young Kenobi. It's a shame we never got to see a true peak Maul because for his age he's insanely powerful, and if he continued his apprenticeship I have no doubt he would've eventually surpassed even his master.

Maul in Season 5 is basically Season 7 Maul minus the huge mental breakdown. He's in arguably the best point in his overall pretty miserable life - he controls a significant galactic force, has powerful allies in the Nightsisters and a genuine connection with his brother & apprentice Savage. Furthermore he's actually able to briefly move past his obsession with Kenobi - something that would later hinder Vader in a similar way. Maul here is focused, far less prone to outbursts than his later more deranged counterpart in Rebels, and has not yet lost hope.

@breakingthrones: which is headcanon, was debunked in the same thread.

Agreed on TPM<TCW<SOD tho.

@reaperace:

What was debunked? Do you understand what the term “headcanon” means?

@reaperace:

Do you know what "head canon" is?

i'm going to guess reapy here defines headcanon as anything he doesn't like

SoD.

I’d say Sons of Dathomir Maul is Prime Maul, which is took place between the events of his fight with Sidious and his fight with Ahsoka

Prime for force users has nothing to do with physical condition. They all use force amps.

Dooku is in his 80s. Sidious is like 100. If your really gonna sit here and try to say Maul being 52 is somehow a hinderance to his physical ability... you are sadly mistaken.

@breakingthrones:

Rebels should be his peak:

-> The darkside is continuously growing stronger between AOTC and ROTJ, we have multiple explicit examples of darksiders getting stronger because of this

-> Maul's hatred explicitly grows stronger between TCW and Rebels, Maul is explicitly stated to grow stronger because of his hatred in TCW

-> Dooku and Sidious were not neccesarily more active than post ROTS Maul yet both grew in combative strength despite being decades older and being in significantly worse physical condition primarily because of the galaxy's darkness increasing

-> Feloni, "the highest authority", tells us Rebels Maul is a better fighter

@Aristeaus: If we're talking Lords of the Sith, which is the last time I can recall Palpatine doing anything physical, he was still younger than Dooku, no? Minor correction but worth mentioning I suppose.

Physical condition is still very relevant for Force users - otherwise why would Jedi or Sith even bother getting in shape? I'm really not sure how you've drawn the conclusion that Force amps are the only factor to their physicality.

I'm not going to argue that you can't account for your old age with force augmentation, you clearly can; Yoda has been able to climb mountains without breaking stride and logically Dooku shouldn't even be able to run, but I am going to argue against the assertion that physical condition isn't a factor whatsoever and that it can't be a hinderance.

I'd like to use Old Ben Kenobi as a comparison. He's an extremely powerful Force user arguably in his prime as far as his strength in the Force goes. Obi-Wan was 57 years old at the time of his death at the hands of Darth Vader, so a little older than Maul during Rebels but I'd say the Zabraks' injuries even out those extra years.

I'll be sourcing "From A Certain Point Of View: Time Of Death" here, it's a PoV account of Kenobi becoming a Force Ghost and includes a first-person perspective of the duel on the Death Star. Just a couple quotes illustrating the significance of Kenobi's physical body here;

Just to first establish that Old Ben does feel the effects of his age in day-to-day life when not using his augmentation, and that he isn't only old in appearance;

"I swing my legs onto the rough stone floor. That’s when I realize. I don’t ache. For the first time in years, my body doesn’t complain when I push myself from the bed. I look down at my hands. They’re the hands of a much younger man. They don’t shake, they don’t tremble. The skin is supple, tanned but not yet discolored by the twin suns’ constant glare. I flex my fingers, expecting to hear the creak of rheumatic joints. Nothing. The fingers are strong. One might even suggest, dexterous."

Kenobi then acknowledges his exhaustion and age in the same thought - if age was no factor to his exhaustion I'd find it very odd for him to note it, wouldn't you?

"I see my face distorted in the reflective surface of his helmet. Old. Tired."

Obi-Wan struggles to match Darth Vader in strength, yet he was more than capable of doing so during their previous duels;

"Our lightsabers clash. I try to push forward, only to be thrust violently back. It’s like striking iron. There’s no give in Vader’s arms, and far too much in mine."

And just incase you'd want to attribute this to Vader's strength increasing, here's Kenobi directly stating that his physicals are lesser due to his age;

"I am an old man. Even if I tried, I couldn’t outrun a blaster shot, not anymore."

So I am really gonna sit here and say that an old man like Maul is hindered physically by being an old man.

SoD is his prime by several magnitudes. All indications are Rebels is out of prime or equal to SoD

@killbilly: Do you think just post SoD with what happened to his mother? That's gotta amp him right, all that hatred and pain? First his brother and now his mother too.

@octavius220:

Do you think just post SoD with what happened to his mother? That's gotta amp him right, all that hatred and pain? First his brother and now his mother too.

Only if he wasn't left broken by the experience. Considering he went into hiding and never made any major moves after that until Rebels... ( and that was only because he thought he could access a Sith superweapon ).

@killbilly: That's a good point.

@kaore:

We don’t know how Zabraks work so Obis physicals aren’t really an argument

While it's stated the Rebels Maul was stated to be the most knowledgable, but he's getting old and was defeated by Kanan. It's always hard to scale Disney Star Wars characters because while most get stronger with age sometimes feats contradict statements.

I'm going with S4 Maul < Rebels Maul <S7 Maul < TPM Maul < S5 Maul

There's know doubt that S5 Maul was when he was at the top of his game, no longer completly blinded with his hate with Kenobi, solid force power, and at the top of his game lightsaber combat wise.

I just wish things were more clear when scaling Star Wars characters.

@kbroskywalker:

That would make the entire disney canon headcanon for me lmao.

No, headcanon is pulling arguments out of someone's arse and doing mental gymnastics with it to present it as canon. While there is no evidence supporting it solidly.

@wordsbeyondfic0:

so.....maul "iwthout a doubt" is at the "top of his game" when he+oppress can't beat a pre-prime kenobi?

What about the darkside getting stronger between sod and rots and then rots and rebels?

And how do you have sod better by "several magnitudes" and "potentially equal" to rebels

He was still working with black sun at that point. he was also doing enough to gain a reputation as the shadow and is shown to have been collecting sith artifacts and looking for holocrons.

We don't need to spread blatant misinformation here do we?

@reaperace: so like when you called a nexus amp "non-existent" despite us being told and directly seeing combative improve from it because...reasons

or when you called Vader being enraged "headcanon" even though it's explicitly stated in a source?

Head canon is when you say things because you want them to be true rather than when you can find support for them in the text, which seems to be your mo.

SoD/CW

@kbroskywalker: waiting for you to answer namelessones post under that same thread.

I don't debate canon, but I do have common sense to see reaching and when that said reaching is debunked.

@reaperace: by "having common sense", you mean throwing out evidence you don't like? Dismissing evidence from sources on the basis of your "common sense" is definitionally "head canon".

The arguments for ds amplification were based entirely on what we see textually and oou statements. The rage amp was taken directly from a source. You dismissed both on the basis of "common sense", not contradictions in the text.

What you have is a lack of self-awareness. The entirety of your comments on these threads are either

-> you stating an opinion without evidence

-> you complaining that someone else's claims, irregardless of what is provided to support it, is ridiculous because they violate what you think is sensible

@kbroskywalker: Why you so mad buddy?

I didn’t even debate your arguements, still waiting for replay in the same thread your claims are debunked.

Getting so defensive over someone else opinion when they had yet to engage your points doesn't look good when you should better spend that energy defending that blog.

Tbh I expected better, from someone who has been debating for long enough to know even ROTS titan level S7 Maul has some sort of streched evidence in canon lmao.

The usage of Ventress>Sidious tier quotes for Rebels duo wank continues, at the end of the day

@reaperace:

I asked nameless one to debate me in a voice call in one of my servers because I’m not on my pc and I can’t be bothered to write an essay. He didn’t and still hasn’t joined or reached out to me: Furthermore just writing a long ass essay of mental gymnastics and points I addressed is not a debunk, please learn the definition

A more recent response doesn’t entail of a debunk or a win so please stop gooning and create your OWN argument instead of piggybacking others

@reaperace: "u mad bro"? Seriously?

I'm calling you out for saying a blog-post mostly using multiple sources per argument is "head canon" while you actually use head-canon to dismiss arguments you don't like:

Great to comeback to the non existant Nexus amps in canon and people trying mental gymnastics on fierce battles.

And your response was you...admitting you rely on head canon:

I don't debate canon, but I do have common sense to see reaching

It seems you can't even follow conversations you're involved in:

Tbh I expected better, from someone who has been debating for long enough to know even ROTS titan level S7 Maul has some sort of streched evidence in canon lmao.

This thread, and living's original post was discussing what Maul's prime is. What does "rots titan level maul" have to do with anything? You're incapable of addressing anyone's points or even tracking a discussion through three comments, yet you confidently claim people are "debunked" or using "head canon" whenever your assumptions are challenged.

Maybe try not being delusional?

Some people might like want to debate on this website only, so there goes your excuse.

I didn't call it a win because it was more recent or longer, I said that because it turned your arguments to shreds. I don't need to create new arguments for debunked claims and as I said before I am not a canon debater.

But it seems that I have become an obsession for you and your mate @kbroskywalker, So I make an exception just for you, let's make this official so you can't just come up with excuses again for your stretched fan fics.

I challenge either of you to a CaV, then let the people decide who is using headcanon and who is not.

@reaperace: I'll be in on making it a 2v2 and repping say The Count , Considering I am pretty confident living over there has both Maul and Ashoka taking him down

@living162637:

Furthermore just writing a long ass essay of mental gymnastics and points I addressed is not a debunk, please learn the definition

congratulations your first sentence perfectly described your blog , and if you're gonna insult my arguments or indirectly even me , atleast get the balls to actually tag me for it.

but Just as I said , we can run it in a CAV format.

@thenamelessone: Well that will be exciting, putting two delusional viners down with one stone.

I guess Anakin can be a good contender too, as Living has Ahsoka >~ Rebels Vader who is above Little Ani.

Anakin and Dooku Vs Rebels titans, I am willing to let them have that massive nexus amp for Maul too lol.

@reaperace:

Ok? How does this change the fact that I DID in fact reach out to argue points brought up that he decided not to? I’m not lacking in any confidence and the points are not that difficult to argue against. Just because I can’t type out a long essay with scans doesn’t mean I can’t or didn’t respond

You can think that I guess. I understand you don’t debate disney, or atleast that’s your excuse, so I can see weak arguments reliant off lack of reading skills to be “testing something to shreds”. None of that argument even consisted of much scans. I can debate him or you at anytime though.

So you’re going to run away because you yourself are incompetent and can’t actually formulate an argument so much as to just piggyback others. Cool. I’ll do you one better. You’re happy to join my private server and we can discuss or debate everything point by point in a voice call so I don’t waste days arguing over text. And yes you can download disc if you don’t have it. Don’t be lazy

https://discord.gg/Qgkj8aKx

Btw I never said Ashoka was high end relative to Vader. I guess you just can’t read. I also explicitly said I don’t think the nexus amp was exponential on Malachor? I thought you didn’t debate disney canon though? Odd. Like I said, no one as time for a long text format. Your invite is right here. Ping me and I’ll run some discussions over every single point.

Oh and nameless I did in fact tag you for a vocal debate which you didn’t respond to? Your friends on CV have also been telling me you’re an idiot with terrible scales? Even your own website doesn’t rate you😭

@living162637: Nah I don't want you to just run excuses like you did with Namelessone, either accept the CaV or never tag me again, don't waste my time. that way I will have the audience to discredit you for good.

If you like debating in discord then stick with it, don't challenge others here. don't bother even keeping the account on a debating website when its all long text formats lmao.

@reaperace:

Sorry dude but you’re not gonna bait me into wasting my time and spending four hours texting through deaf ears. Your invite is here, if you don’t accept fine, just don’t go around talking shit when you’re terrified of vocally expressing a stance

As well as self admitting that you NEED a popular consensus, which is fallacious to actually prove a basis over me. I don’t need that. We can go until one concedes and gives up. The invite is there for you and your bro. I can run this anytime. Neutral grounds are established, no biased judges

Hell if you don’t want to talk we can run VC to text as well. Your choice: balls in your court

@living162637:

Oh and nameless I did in fact tag you for a vocal debate which you didn’t respond to? Your friends on CV have also been telling me you’re an idiot with terrible scales? Even your own website doesn’t rate you😭

why did you come to a text debating site to challenge someone to a VC? either way , if you care about what random X person probably named Hellothere thinks of you or if you think that I care , man you really need to lose your virginity and get a job , Maybe go out of discord once in a while? oh and next time , ball up to tag me , don't be another SI prick.

@thenamelessone:

You think because it’s a text format I have to abide by only text lololol. Your response does show you care quite alot. Like I said we can run it anytime. Dont get nervous

@living162637:

As well as self admitting that you NEED a popular consensus, which is fallacious to actually prove a basis over me. I don’t need that. We can go until one concedes and gives up. The invite is there for you and your bro. I can run this anytime. Neutral grounds are established, no biased judges

Nobody is coming to your server , but perhaps if you wanna , https://discord.gg/en4hKmhu , text v text , no vc/text or pure VC , the Best I canndo.

@living162637:

Lol either don't sign up here or keep the debates where you started them. btw nice debating format, But I think most people can't be bothered to beat up a corpse with lame excuses until he concedes lmao.
"balls in your court" Kek, buddy why did you even join here? to get some members for your server???

Don't tag me other than accepting my CaV.

@living162637:

You think because it’s a text format I have to abide by only text lololol.

and You think I have abide by VC , hypocrite much?

Your response does show you care quite alot.

don't know how to read? hmmm ok

Like I said we can run it anytime. Dont get nervous

Like I said we can CAV it anytime , Don't be a pussy.