When Did Dragon Ball Start To Drop In Quality?

I know DB Super has a lot of fans and I enjoy it myself... I'm not saying that the franchise is S*** or anything cause it's one of my favorite series of all time.

However... with all the bs power ups, plot holes, and inconsistencies..... there is just no doubt that the series has dropped in quality from what it used to be even though it is still very enjoyable.

So my question for you guys is... when in your opinion do you think Dragon Ball really started this drop? Everyone likes to have their own theories... well here's mine:

Lots of people say DB just started getting worse at the start of Z and that's complete bs to me. Z started off great with the Saiyan and Namek arcs imo. People will say the pacing is terribly dragged out but that's mainly when you watch the anime and not read the manga. In the manga the pacing is quicker, therefore the writing is much tighter, and the story flows more smoothly rather than in the anime where it's just episode after episode of the same two guys punching each other...

That being said... even in the manga I did start to notice a slight drop in quality during the cell saga around when he was introduced. Don't get me wrong... Cell's introduction was one of the creepiest and coolest introductions of the series... but this is when I started to notice something. Even though the series had already been doing this for a while now.... the whole "my power is greater than yours" type-stuff really started getting to me. Like in other series the characters have a better way of progressing... they'll each have their own individual talents/traits/abilities that makes them unique... but in Dragon Ball that's almost all it is. That's all you can do is "raise your power level".

The reason why this gets so ridiculous is that Frieza in his FIRST FORM was a freaking planet buster! And then he goes 2nd form, and 3rd form, final form, final form full power... and then Trunks is able to kick Frieza's and King Cold's ass.... then the androids are able to kick Trunks' and everyone's ass.... then Cell kicks the androids assess and ABSORBS the androids... then Gohan kicks Cell's ass... Buu kicks Gohan's ass... Goku kicks Buu's ass... Buu kicks Buu's ass and absorbs Buu... Gohan Kicks Super Buu's ass.... Super Buu absorbs Gohan and kicks his ass.... Vegito kicks all ass..................................... and let me say again just in case you forgot..... FRIEZA, remember? .........in his FIRST FORM, right? Was a CASUAL planet buster!!!!! Literally!!! He can blow up planets with his finger!!!!!!!!

Like...... how F****** powerful are these guys, man!?!? This is just ridiculous hahaha....... I wish that they did more of progressing through specific talents/abilities rather than the same old "my power level is higher than yours now" bull crap.......

My REASON for not liking the insane power levels.... is because it leads to so much inconsistencies like they should have blown up the planet A THOUSAND times by now...... and just LOOK AT THIS........

I REPEAT..... Frieza in his FIRST form was a CASUAL planet buster....... so tell me.... how in his GOLDEN FRIEZA form.... the form that puts him on par with Goku and Vegeta..... who are almost on par with GODS at this point..... HOW is he throwing these little super weenie teeny tiny little baby pussy blasts that BARELY even explode against a cliff as much as a freaking GRENADE would!?!?!

I'm fine with making your characters Uber-Powerful... if that's just the type of series it is then hey... who am I to judge? But what does piss me off is when you introduce planet level characters...... give the series power up after power up and transformation after transformation.... and after ALL that they get WEAKER!?!?!? WTF MAN????????

This is coming from a super Dragon Ball fanboy nerd btw... I grew up on the show and it was like literally all I gave a S*** about in life when I was a kid lmao.... so please don't call me a Dragon Ball hater.... I LOVE the series.... EVEN super.... hell I've even watched GT countless times... for anyone who still doubts Dragon Ball is a quality series I urge you to check out these videos unless you are adamant about someone changing your mind and you're set on hating Dragon Ball forever.

So I LOVE Dragon Ball and I will ALWAYS love it until the day that I die... however... I criticize the series because I know it has so much potential to be even better. I firmly believe the universe of Dragon Ball is so great; it's one of those universes in fiction that just allow for almost infinite stories like Star Wars or even Marvel or DC. I love Dragon Ball to death and I want the series to do GOOD! I want the series to BE good! I just feel as though it has made some mistakes along the way and hasn't quite lived up to it's potential like it could have. What I mean is this.....

The Transition From Adventure To Action (DB to DBZ)

Now I know DB always had action, but there used to be such a better mix of the adventure along with it. Don't get me wrong... it's like I said before... I don't think the series goes straight to crap right when Z is introduced or anything........However, I DO feel as though this is where the series made it's first big mistake.

Don't get me wrong... I absolutely LOVE the transition from DB to DBZ. I love how it just sky rockets, everything becomes so much more serious and adult. Like the series just gives itself this big old kick in the ass and it transforms just like it's characters do lol. And don't even get me started on how cutthroat and edgy the story became. You liked Goku in part 1? BAM he's dead. You thought he was just some super giant werewolf boy? BAM he's an alien. You thought he was a good guy? BAM his brother and his entire race was evil and he was sent to the Earth to conquer it.........I just LOVE all this.... I love this hardcore transition to death.

However.... when looking at it in the long run.... I really wish it didn't completely get rid of the adventure aspect PURELY in turn of fighting.... I would love for the series to have a better mix of it like the original DB did. To have BOTH the fighting and the adventure.... and this to me.... was WHY Dragon Ball started dropping in quality... for WHEN it did like I said... somewhere in the Cell saga when the fighting (while still enjoyable) really just started having that "same" feeling to me as opposed to older DB. Again.... not enough special or unique traits or abilities.... just higher power levels after high power levels and even THEY are inconsistent.

So.... my long rant is over lol.... again I really don't mean to S*** on this series. I love it to death and I will keep watching it for the rest of my life. It's as I said... I criticize it so much because I KNOW it can do better... I know it's just one of those types of series out there that has true potential for greatness..... but tell me your thoughts.... When and how in YOUR opinion did Dragon Ball start to drop in quality? Or am I wrong and the series gets even better? If so please explain! :D

I personally very much enjoy every single arc of the original anime and manga. Everyone knows the GT story.

None of the movies were very quality, until BoG which came out of nowhere. After that it was all downhill. Unfortunately, I think modern DB is largely bad...

After Cell. I enjoyed DBZ and the Super I have seen, but for the most part, I feel everything after the Cell Saga [even with how much I enjoy the Gohan Highschool stuff] was unnecessary and a large step back in character development.

Over DBZ, we see Gohan grow up, get stronger, and, eventually, surpass his father whom had just handed off the 'protector of the world' duties to, and so it was a nice completion of DBZ. But everything in the Buu arc nullifies that and we take a massive step back, I think it could have been fine.... if Gohan had defeated Super Buu and not been absorbed. Then if you must have Gohan get absorbed because you really want Vegito, have Gohan emerge out of Super Buu after being pulled out and have it that the strongest of them, Ultimate/Mystic Gohan, is the one who is needed to defeat Kid Buu and, thus, pass off the mantle, once again, only this time with the realization that he can't stop training and pushing himself because there will always be another threat.

This would greatly change super, of course, but you could keep a lot of Super's structure and plot without messing with too much if you have Super, essentially, be the 'adventures of Goku and Vegeta in the afterlife' by cutting out the time-skip. Attaching themselves to the god of destruction, going to other universes to fight the various tournaments, etc. Come back to Earth for an Arc here and there to show off the rest of the cast, and I feel it would be vastly better and not just waste characters.

@the_hajduk: I do as well that's why I titled this thread "when does it drop in quality" not when does it go bad or stop being good or anything... because I do always enjoy DB no matter what. Even the movies which I agree aren't the best (some are good tho) I still love and have re-watched countless times throughout my life and will still watch countless times more!!!! ^_^

DB was good. DBZ was better, The Buu saga was really a down note for the series, and GT shouldn't have happened. The movies were good until they started using pop alternative rock songs instead of original scores. But I personally feel Super is the best thing they've ever done with the entire franchise.

after Frieza arc

Mostly after Namek's saga, when everyone started to be able to get some new power up with increasingly easier difficulty when, up until a few years ago, such power up was just a myth.

I'm not sayig there's no good in Cell and Buu arcs, but imo they just didn't have they tension previous arcs had, Goku's journey seemed fulfilled when he became the saiyan of legend and defeated the space tyrant that killed his race. Similar to what happens in Naruto after Pain's arc.

The buu arc for me personally. It was just a true testament of how lazy they are to try new things and have Gohan be the main character. Just horrible on my opinion.

DBZ Story was never good to being with IMO, but have cool fights.

After Frieza

When DBZ decided not to go beyond Goku and Vegeta , im sorry but even Naruto eventually switched to Boruto , we need to see saiyans after Goku and Vegeta

After Namek even If I did enjoy lots of parts of the other sagas.

Most people agree that it dropped after Frieza. Personally I started to lose interest after Cell. Mostly because that's when Toriyama absolutely botched the character arc of Gohan due to caving into pressure from his editor and the fans. It was bad storytelling no matter how you try to spin it.

Pretty much this. Dragonball was the story of Goku growing into the protector of the world. Z was about the slow maturation of his child and how Gohan eventually inherits his father's role. Everything from the early hints of his true power in the Saiyan Saga and Frieza Saga to his ultimately defeating Cell at such a young age built this up. Even the first half of the Buu Saga was unambiguously about a young adult Gohan trying to figure out what sort of life he wants to have, only for it to be interrupted by Babidi. It was the story of Gohan accepting his role as protector of the Earth.

But then it took a hard left turn and left Gohan in the dust, completely dropping what the past arc and a half was doing with his character just to bring the spotlight back to Goku. It's one of the most clear cut examples of why writing for the fans is a terrible idea. Fans aren't writers and they don't know what would actually be best for the story they are reading.

I personally thought it got repetitive and bad narrative wise after the cell saga. Buu is a cool character, but that whole arc just felt like a rehash of the previous dbz arcs. Super has cool hype moments but still felt the same especially in the action department and it's narrative.

After the Cell saga. After that it kinda started to go downhill and hit the bottom with GT. Super isn't that far behind it in terms of quality.

I'm probably in the minority but I actually prefer the original Dragon Ball over Z, I enjoyed the latter too of course though after the Cell Saga it went down hill from there really.

The Frieza saga was definitely the peak, and the series could have ended there. The Cell saga was the cherry on top, however, and after it ended the series began it's true decline.

Super put the series in the gutter tho

It started to drop after Freeza, but then really dropped off after Cell.

Why do you make so much flame threads?

Buu saga.

@eminel: Is this a "flame thread"? xD Seems pretty civil to me so far hopefully it stays that way lol :3 Sorry I just wanted to get my thoughts out there on how I wish DB sort of kept its adventure roots a bit more with the whole shift to Z..... but I just like talking about one of my fav series and trying to create a discussion and stuff ^^

Also LOL "Eminel"???? That's awesome!!!!!!! Hahahahahaha XDDDD

Tbh after Namek.....but the quality of the Buu Saga both In anime and Manga made up for it nearly 10 fold. When I saw Goku going ssj3 as a kid I litterally exploded; Even seeing it now gives me chills.

I mean basically anyone whose a Anime/Manga fan in general can explain the greatness of watching Goku ascend beyond his supposed limits but I feel Toriyama was too far sighted of that basic principle. He just began throwing powerups and none of the awakenings can compare to the sheer Epicness of his first three.

In overall Quality I'll even go on to say GT has Super beat; Baby was by far one of the coolest Villians in the franchise

After Namek. Toriyama just made the Frieza vs Goku fight too epic, and inevitably everything after it felt sort of cheap in comparison. I mean, after unlocking the legendary transformation of your people to fight the evil emperor of the universe that is also responsible for the destruction of your race while in an exploding planet, there really is no way but down.

Not that what followed was bad. I love plenty of things after the Frieza fight (Future Trunks, Piccolo vs 17, Perfect Cell vs Goku, Saiyaman, the entire ridiculousness of the Buu saga), and I don't consider it a bad thing it continued as long as it did, but they feel sort of... superfluous. Dragon Ball was Goku's story, and ascending to Super Saiyan was the pinnacle of everything he did in the story. Some of the above posters say Z was Gohan's story... but Toriyama didn't execute that too well, Gohan wasn't nearly as fun to follow as child Goku was, and it ends up being for nothing anyway. It doesn't help that Gohan vs Cell is the most boring of the main villain fights, IMO. I know it's borderline heresy, but I'll take awkward dork Saiyaman Gohan over Cell Games Gohan any day of the week. He's just more fun to watch.

Yeah I definitely say it dropped after Frieza. You have a pretty solid, consistent narrative with reasonable and logical progression between arcs mostly up to that point. Androids always felt so forced in to me. It just didn’t make sense to have them follow Frieza. Cell seemed kinda unique in some ways, but ultimately his personality isn’t too much different from what was already seen in Frieza as a villain.

After the Buu Saga.

After witnessing Trunks lightning sword, it was really cancerous and mediocre, I mean, the design was so damn weeb, Akira is mentally ill IMO, he is too old.

The very start of DBS was already horrible, Vegeta's character carrying weeb tendencies, overacting like a clown, just horrible, I just can't explain myself, how the brain of one individual can deteriorate to such degree.

After Frieza, but weirdly enough, I still like all of it... Except for GT and most of the Super Anime. The Super Manga is good.

I dk. I think super has some of the best animated fights in the series. And each character/villain all had unique traits, its just that power, for the most dictates who wins fights.

That being said I also dislike the inconsistencies. Frieza tapped earth to destroy it, why aren't his ki blast doing anything.

Story wise after Frieza. The whole series felt like it built up to the match against Goku vs Frieza, the legendary ssj vs the tyrant who destroyed his planet and race. The Cell arc kind of got messy with time travel and random new villains showing up, and the Buu saga was just messy in general. However I think entertainment wise those arcs were very good, arguably just as good as the Frieza saga. Just story wise they aren't on that level. Now quality wise I would say it went down at GT, then came back good with BoG (also had a good story), and RoF (high quality and enjoyable but bad story). But then it went back down in quality with Super with those retelling arcs and really had pretty poor quality until the ToP arc when they actually decided to put some budget and effort into the show, which they should have done since the beginning. Story wise the only good thing in Super was the Black arc and the world building. Two out of the three new arcs were tournament arcs, lol. The Super manga is good but too fast paced and isn't nearly on the same level as the original manga. The upcoming Broly movie is looking promising quality wise, and even story wise surprisingly. Lets hope it lives up to the hype.

@piratekingoda: Good analysis, and I agree, when watching RoF it was like Goku going blue and Frieza going gold only changed their color, as their fight didn't really get anymore intense than it was before, lol.

After the Cell Saga. Still had some good movies, but the main series got dumb.

The Buu Saga in my opinion, is the time that the DBZ series had jumped the shark.

but the suspenseful build up was actually great particularly the tournament part,

and before that, the side story about Saiyaman Gohan going to high school and doing all the Superman-tropes and the start of Videl light romance was pretty entertaining in my opinion.

In general i like the expressions of clueless people who had stumbled upon some epic truth.

Videl literally jaw-dropped every time the Z troupe demonstrate their epic OP-ness and it was nice to expect that someone actually appreciate and understand the OP-ness of their existence when most of time the rest of the population don't even know that they exist.

After that it became too "cartoonish" and fantastical for a DBZ action shonen series, (yeah, i know that DB started out is cartoonish parody anime)

Since Namek

After the cell games. Cell was my favorite villan and the buu saga didnt really wow me. Buu was a boring chocolate eatimg villan and the Buu saga made Hercule, the worst character relevant. Gohan became a stupid crime fighting sissy and had to get another powerup to make up for his lack of training making him a wimp. I think the only good things that came out of the Buu saga was ssj3 and fusion, and even ssj3 became obsolete directly after.

It never did...the beauty of dragon ball is that it had different things for different people every stage of the way. (even GT for certain fans...)

The Buu Saga. Toriyama botched a lot of characters in that arc, but it was still enjoyable. Vegeta's sacrifice imo, is still arguably one of the greatest moments in the Dragonball franchise. But Buu as a villain never lived up to his predecessors. There was lot of thematics playing on the Goku vs Frieza fight on Namek. And even with Cell as he was essentially an evil version of Goku, and the arc ending with Gohan taking the reigns in his father's stead. Buu was just an agent of chaos.

Intricate storytelling was never really Dragon Ball's selling point - it's always been about the action - though I feel it declined heavily in every facet after Namek.

It's been mediocre since the first episode, I just happen to enjoy it.

@alextheboss: Thank you! And thanks for the amazing posts as well! I totally agree! :D It's exactly what you said I love DB with all my heart but these are the moments that just piss me off so much lmao it's crazy like they were just fighting in base form.... then they transform into what is basically the biggest ascension of power in the series.... I mean they become practically on the level of the gods in these forms... no other transformation in the series is that big of a jump... yet it's just like you said it literally looks like it was just meant to change their colors or something lol like the fight was on the EXACT same level even when they were in base form!! Like how the hell does this work? hahaha XD The entire fight was supposed to be some next level stuff and I was disappointed because it doesn't even seem as powerful as the freaking Goku/Vegeta fight in the Saiyan Saga! >.> It's the same mountain tier DBZ stuff we've been getting and I want that NEXT level....imo THAT'S what Super should be doing and it kinda has sometimes with the Goku and Beerus fight:

A lot of people complain about this moment... but to me this is what Super SHOULD be doing! It should be bringing the series to the next level! I mean think about it...

DB ascended to DBZ, right? What the series should do is make an even BIGGER ascension with Super into completely cosmic levels if you ask me... that's the ONLY way to fix these problems of inconsistency.

But I don't feel like Super has done enough of this. The Beerus fight was one of the only moments that brought this into fruition.

The Zamasu fights (while all being extremely well animated and choreographed) were just going back to the same old building level dbz days......

I'm not saying I need crazy power levels to enjoy my series or anything. Hell no...... I love One Piece just as much as Dragon Ball but Kid Buu could arguably solo the OP verse lol (I mean, he does if he just blows up the planet like always xD)

What I'm saying is.... I honestly think at this point it makes MORE sense to bring them to these universal tiers rather than to continue keeping them as the same city busters they've always been....

BECAUSE THEY are the ones getting more and more power ups and transformations Lol ...if the series didn't do all that then I wouldn't be saying this. But it's DB's own fault for constantly amping it up..... without ever really amping it up haha I just think it's so lazy... like are they getting more powerful or not? It's my number one problem with DBZ and Super even ahead of the story like a lot of people because (at least with Z) I still find the story to be of quality unlike a lot of people.... but anyways it's as I said... I wouldn't care about their power levels if they weren't always being given transformations and such... if you're gonna do that then have them actually get more powerful.


And sorry for the long post haha I was responding to you but then I just thought I should add to the thread as a whole lol my bad xD

@piratekingoda: Ya I agree. I don't really like the universe destroying shockwaves though, but that is more because they were never used again. If they are going to make them universe level they have to be consistent. Maybe they should have saved that for the Jiren fight or if Goku ever got a rematch against 100% Beerus. I was OK with the feat when it first happened because I thought SSG Goku was going to be 60% of Beerus like he was in BoG, but then we found out later he was actually not even like 1% of Beerus, meaning if he was universe level Beerus would be like 100x universe level which doesn't really make sense. I'm fine with Beerus being universe level, but 1% Beerus? Not so much. It makes it even worse that the Goku vs Frieza fight in Super was one of the weakest looking fights in dragon ball history.

Namek was DB at it's prime for me, after that it was slowly getting worse only to sink like a stone into water after Vegeta's failed sacrifice against Buu. It still had nice moments but rest of the Buu arc just showed how repetitive and closed the franchise is with every arc being about new forms that doesn't add anything to the characters other than different hairstyle or body colour.

@alextheboss: Yeah I agree for sure I hate how they introduced that just to take it away and make it seem like it's just out of nowhere for that fight and most the other fights don't feel very powerful at all. And haha I know it's crazy what they did with Beerus XD To me this was the fight where they amped it up in Super but they quickly didn't follow through.

Did you even make it to the universe 6 arc? Or the tournament of power?

Buu saga where anything just fall into sheer downfall aside from giving us majin buu and cool idea of fusions.

Not yet lmao

It got bad at Buu, then became good again with Super, then got bad again in the final 30-ish episodes

Everything after Namek was terrible. The Cell saga wasn't even good.

That feeling of mystery early in the Android Arc and Imperfect Form Cell's creepy sinister persona was the shit and Trunks was a badass.

The start was just so interesting due to the air of mystery of it all:

1. Two androids showing up that Trunks didn't remember.
2. #17 & #18 are stronger than the ones in his time.
3. Suddenly, there's another Time Machine. It's the same one as Trunks' but from another timeline!

And then they had to go and ruin the entire arc by creating those Cell transformations, and this is actually not Toriyama's fault, it was Yū Kondō his second editor.

1. Everything just devolved into nothing but fights.

Hide and fight, hide and fight, Tournament, fight, everyone gets their shit pushed in by blue midgets, fight and then it's over.

1. Semi-Perfect was a whiny toddler who did nothing but get curb-stomped all the time. No nosed, fish-lipped ugly ass design, too. Probably the reason why it was beaten up and rushed out the door for Perfect Cell.
2. Perfect Cell was just kinda samey and boring. Just Freeza as a handsome green cockroach man.

No new twists, no interesting developments, everything just kinda happens.

Also, Gohan just sucks completely.

When Gohan started out back in the Saiyan invasion he was a crying 5-year-old. He cries because he has to take on this big scary man who's killing his friends, which is understandable, but he at least tries. Then we get to Namek, and Gohan actually WANTS to fight to bring back Piccolo; no crying in a corner, he's just kicking ass because that's what he has to do.

During the Cell games, Gohan suddenly turns into a pacifist for no reason. He was ready to fight when Piccolo was getting stomped by Cell or when they were all ganging up on Gero but now during the Cell Games where the fate of the world is on the line he doesn't want to do anything.

Cell makes the Cell Jrs. and Gohan's just LETTING him do it, y'know? Everyone's getting the shit beaten out of them by plot devices and Gohan's just standing there, not even hurt, and he's not even attempting to help. Krillin lands there at his feet and Gohan just lets his spine get shattered. His best friend after Piccolo, the guy who watched him and stood by his side the entirety of Namek, and also saved his ass from Nappa and Dodoria. Just lets him almost die in front of him. Just sits there and pisses himself.

We get to this artificial moment where Mr. Satan throws the head of the android that Gohan didn't know and that's what triggers him. Some words about loving life and letting go from a STRANGER is what Gohan needed, not his dear friends and his own father getting beaten to near death.

Even after he transforms and becomes just strong enough to tip the scales in his favour he still ends up crying on the ground because he couldn't just get serious during this dire moment and do his job in eliminating Cell. Goku has to save Gohan yet again, dies, and then Gohan just cries.

Cell comes back for... no good reason really, Gohan doesn't want to do his job anymore once his arm gets a boo-boo even though he was ready to kill Cell earlier, and Goku's hologram ghost or whatever has to keep telling Gohan to fight harder and stop trying to give up. Gohan is terrible.

This all happened because of Goku being the moron he is and putting his trust in a crying kid like Gohan. It all works out at the end, of course, we can't have our main characters dying... at least not OUR main heroes, screw Trunk's timeline.