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#1 Posted by MasterDetective (1500 posts) - - Show Bio

the DCAU and Teen Titans had a perfect balance between drama and lightness

but now either they do something too serious (the DC direct to video)

or too immature (teen titans go, justice league action)

what's their problem ? can't they do something that is both serious and lighthearted like in the past ?

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#2 Posted by Knightsofdarkness2 (8155 posts) - - Show Bio

How are the DC DTV movies "too serious"? They're fine tonally IMO.

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#3 Posted by StormShadow_X (16772 posts) - - Show Bio

Don't blame them for the TV. Blame kids these days. Everything has to be adventure time :P

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#4 Posted by Aros001 (3670 posts) - - Show Bio

Don't blame them for the TV. Blame kids these days. Everything has to be adventure time :P

You've never seen that much of Adventure Time, have you? Because that show can be both really fun and really dark.

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#5 Posted by King_Nomarch (2115 posts) - - Show Bio

Too much Batman and less focus on Damian.

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#6 Posted by ScouterV (7764 posts) - - Show Bio

@masterdetective: The original Teen Titans was pretty overrated. It wasn't actually funny. It tried funny and it fell flat 9 times out of 10.

Drama was fine.

And honestly, I'm fine with the shows.

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#7 Posted by Cosmic_Templar (2571 posts) - - Show Bio

@scouterv said:

@masterdetective: The original Teen Titans was pretty overrated. It wasn't actually funny. It tried funny and it fell flat 9 times out of 10.

Drama was fine.

And honestly, I'm fine with the shows.

You're fine with TT Go?

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#8 Posted by StormShadow_X (16772 posts) - - Show Bio

@aros001 said:
@stormshadow_x said:

Don't blame them for the TV. Blame kids these days. Everything has to be adventure time :P

You've never seen that much of Adventure Time, have you? Because that show can be both really fun and really dark.

I've seen plenty. Its mostly Fun and when its really Dark most kids don't understand it. Hasn't been good since season 2 anyway

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#9 Posted by ScouterV (7764 posts) - - Show Bio
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#10 Posted by Cosmic_Templar (2571 posts) - - Show Bio
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#11 Posted by BlueHope (2681 posts) - - Show Bio

DCEU was pretty serious without Flash.

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#12 Posted by johanshieh (288 posts) - - Show Bio

Got the feeling JLA is more TBATB than the original DCAU, generally it's ok, but what's with the new Martian Manhunter trying to be funny? At least it's better than TT Go.

DC animated movies are getting more and more serious and Batman centered, and it'll probably keep getting darker.

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#13 Posted by deactivated-5967bf6197d40 (2560 posts) - - Show Bio

Can't speak for Justice League Action, and I don't mind Teen Titans Go since it was billed as a parody from the start, but as far as their New 52 movies go, their problems can be summed up pretty easily:

1. Way too much Batman

2. Everyone and their mother's lives revolve around Damian Wayne

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#14 Posted by Outside_85 (23518 posts) - - Show Bio

You assume these are actually problems?

There are problems with the DCAU atm, but it's not tone... it's the obsession with forcing Batman, Damian and the League into everything they do. Another problem is their tendency to either do all-right original work or do rubbish knock-off stories taken from comics (and then boiled down). The TV cartoon shows, you could just say the humorous tone is not for you and there is no law in TV that says there has to be both humor and seriousness in near equal measure. Like BTAS... that was a show that was rarely any fun at all, and that was just because they pulled all the teeth out of the Joker and added Harley.

The DC TV shows, lets just say they are not directed by Josh Whendon.

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#15 Edited by entropy_aegis (20873 posts) - - Show Bio

@nicksmi56 said:

Can't speak for Justice League Action, and I don't mind Teen Titans Go since it was billed as a parody from the start, but as far as their New 52 movies go, their problems can be summed up pretty easily:

1. Way too much Batman

2. Everyone and their mother's lives revolve around Damian Wayne

Both are false, okay maybe the second point is a little more true but still false. For starters Batman was negligent in Throne of Atlantis, JL vs TT and War. Secondly the so called Batman films have been about Damian and the Bat family. In short Batman is the most neglected person in the New-52 movies, DC just uses him to sell others. Only Batman vs Robin arguably had a satisfying Batman narrative. Batman is simply put largely just there period.

Damian took the lead in the first 2 Batman films so not sure why people have so much of a problem if they find issues with both Batman and Damian, just avoid those films. He took a backseat to Dick and Kate in Bad Blood which is also a Bat film and while prominent in JL vs TT was nowhere close to being a show stealer.

The real problem with these films is that DC is producing tonally inconsistent products with bad voice acting, too much emphasis on violence, usage of source material that cannot be properly condensed in to a 70 minute run time, useless stunts like R ratings and they are stuck in a bad place where they try to use A-listers to push B-listers which leaves both sides unsatisfied. Also they're misleading their viewers, the JL movies are no longer JL movies, just one guy and his friends movies, same goes for Batman movies which focus on everyone but Batman. They are overcompensating for their inability to produce films that are not Batman and JL. Frankly Batman films should be about Batman, I love Damian and Dick but gimme a proper solo film and same goes for JL.

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#16 Posted by deactivated-5967bf6197d40 (2560 posts) - - Show Bio

@nicksmi56 said:

Can't speak for Justice League Action, and I don't mind Teen Titans Go since it was billed as a parody from the start, but as far as their New 52 movies go, their problems can be summed up pretty easily:

1. Way too much Batman

2. Everyone and their mother's lives revolve around Damian Wayne

Both are false, okay maybe the second point is a little more true but still false. For starters Batman was negligent in Throne of Atlantis, JL vs TT and War. Secondly the so called Batman films have been about Damian and the Bat family. In short Batman is the most neglected person in the New-52 movies, DC just uses him to sell others. Only Batman vs Robin arguably had a satisfying Batman narrative. Batman is simply put largely just there period.

Damian took the lead in the first 2 Batman films so not sure why people have so much of a problem if they find issues with both Batman and Damian, just avoid those films. He took a backseat to Dick and Kate in Bad Blood which is also a Bat film and while prominent in JL vs TT was nowhere close to being a show stealer.

The real problem with these films is that DC is producing tonally inconsistent products with bad voice acting, too much emphasis on violence, usage of source material that cannot be properly condensed in to a 70 minute run time, useless stunts like R ratings and they are stuck in a bad place where they try to use A-listers to push B-listers which leaves both sides unsatisfied. Also they're misleading their viewers, the JL movies are no longer JL movies, just one guy and his friends movies, same goes for Batman movies which focus on everyone but Batman. They are overcompensating for their inability to produce films that are not Batman and JL. Frankly Batman films should be about Batman, I love Damian and Dick but gimme a proper solo film and same goes for JL.

Would it help if I said way too much Batman-universe instead? My point was that the vast majority of these movies take place either in Batman's universe or with a character from Batman's universe headlining them (Damian). The other characters don't get their own movies (besides Flashpoint if you want to count that, and even that story has a version of Batman saving the day), even the Teen Titans' debut has to be taken over by Damian and now Batman's leading Justice League Dark. Batman's the reason the good guys win in Justice League War, uniting most of the team, saving Superman, helping Green Lantern become a better hero, and even working out the whole boom tube thing if I remember correctly. He's the opposite of negligent in this universe. Him and his offspring are the shadow constantly looming over it.

As for Damian, the kid's just annoying. He doesn't get the character development he does in the comics and the universe loves to bend over backwards at his feet, handing him much stronger foes on a silver platter. He's beaten Deathstroke, Ra's-Al-Ghul, maybe the Court of Owls (haven't seen all of Son of Batman cause I saw where that was going, but I did see where he got the upper hand on Batman himself -_-). The only people he's outright lost to are Blue Beetle and Nightwing, and Dick looked like he got the absolute mess kicked out of him.

Wanna know what's truly ridiculous? In Justice League: War, Batman and Green Lantern fight Superman and get the absolute crap slapped out of them, only avoiding getting smashed into the pavement by using Clark's identity.

Damian fights a mind-controlled, bloodlusted Superman, whips out kryptonite and takes him down in about 2 seconds flat.

That's my problem with these movies.

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#17 Posted by Outside_85 (23518 posts) - - Show Bio

@nicksmi56 said:

Can't speak for Justice League Action, and I don't mind Teen Titans Go since it was billed as a parody from the start, but as far as their New 52 movies go, their problems can be summed up pretty easily:

1. Way too much Batman

2. Everyone and their mother's lives revolve around Damian Wayne

Both are false, okay maybe the second point is a little more true but still false. For starters Batman was negligent in Throne of Atlantis, JL vs TT and War. Secondly the so called Batman films have been about Damian and the Bat family. In short Batman is the most neglected person in the New-52 movies, DC just uses him to sell others. Only Batman vs Robin arguably had a satisfying Batman narrative. Batman is simply put largely just there period.

So would you care to weigh in on why they felt the need to put Batman as a main character of the Justice League Dark movie? A team he's never been part of and going into a world he really doesn't belong in.

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#18 Posted by entropy_aegis (20873 posts) - - Show Bio

@outside_85: I've already weighed in on it. They're using an A lister to push D listers. They've been finding ways to shirk around their basic production model aka Batman and JL films. If they remain sincere to their model most of the problems would subside.

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#19 Posted by SpitfirePanda (2573 posts) - - Show Bio

Teen Titans Go! is a parody. It's not meant to be serious. Don't take it seriously.

Justice League Action is a pretty good show. It's fun and exciting, just like it should be.

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#20 Posted by entropy_aegis (20873 posts) - - Show Bio

@nicksmi56: The other characters are not profitable enough to get their own movies. We've been through that phase already, no point in debating it.

And Damians debut led to the TT getting their own solo film too so look at the other side of coin too.

So Batman helping Superman offscreen and passing through a boom tube off screen and getting a 30 second scene where he removes his mask in front of Jordan= Batman being the show stealer lol. Batman has been a complete non entity for the last 3 JL films and Flashpoint was an adaptation so take it up with the source material.

Damian has beaten neither his grand father nor the Court. Deathstroke was chumped by Batman so he was already a loser, Damian gave that version his most respectable showing cause his other fights were laughable.

Every animation has such discrepancies besides it only succeded in warding off the demon, the real Supes just smiled through that whole ordeal.

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#21 Posted by Outside_85 (23518 posts) - - Show Bio

@outside_85: I've already weighed in on it. They're using an A lister to push D listers. They've been finding ways to shirk around their basic production model aka Batman and JL films. If they remain sincere to their model most of the problems would subside.

As in, they are turning the JLD movie into a pseudo-Batman movie.

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#22 Posted by entropy_aegis (20873 posts) - - Show Bio

@outside_85: JL Dark has no business being in this feature in the first place. People wont buy it for them so they're going with their most dependable horse to sell the other guys. In the end you can bet it will really be a Constantine movie.

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#23 Posted by Eto (5312 posts) - - Show Bio

@entropy_aegis: I agree. They have to show Batman is in JLD otherwise it simply won't sell that much or won't get the expected recognition. Let's first see the movie, afterwards we can judge.

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#24 Posted by deactivated-5967bf6197d40 (2560 posts) - - Show Bio

@nicksmi56: The other characters are not profitable enough to get their own movies. We've been through that phase already, no point in debating it.

And Damians debut led to the TT getting their own solo film too so look at the other side of coin too.

So Batman helping Superman offscreen and passing through a boom tube off screen and getting a 30 second scene where he removes his mask in front of Jordan= Batman being the show stealer lol. Batman has been a complete non entity for the last 3 JL films and Flashpoint was an adaptation so take it up with the source material.

Damian has beaten neither his grand father nor the Court. Deathstroke was chumped by Batman so he was already a loser, Damian gave that version his most respectable showing cause his other fights were laughable.

Every animation has such discrepancies besides it only succeded in warding off the demon, the real Supes just smiled through that whole ordeal.

How the heck are they gonna be profitable if we never make movies about them to begin with? Superman has several animated movies to his name, people love Flashpoint and Wonder Woman's movie was pretty well-received. These movies can do well if they put in the effort. They just don't want to do so. Better to fart out another Damian story.

And no, it's the fact that without Batman, the team couldn't even function. Without Batman, Superman becomes a slave of Darkseid. Without Batman, Hal never becomes a team player and drags everyone down. Without Batman, Darksied stays on earth and wins. All everyone else is good for is killing parademons, besides Cyborg literally being a plot McGuffin.

And just rewatched Damian vs Ra's and saw that he turned into a demon at the end, so it could be argued he was an illusion all along, so I concede that point, even though his other victories are complete crap.

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#25 Posted by Outside_85 (23518 posts) - - Show Bio

@outside_85: JL Dark has no business being in this feature in the first place. People wont buy it for them so they're going with their most dependable horse to sell the other guys. In the end you can bet it will really be a Constantine movie.

See what you put here, this is what I consider the wrongheaded and stupid opinion of DC and WB: that none of their characters save Batman and Superman can turn a dime, when in fact it's the biggest load of crap in the comic industry. The rest of the DCAU does not need to have it's hand held by the League or Batman in order for them to people to go and watch them.

Batman is the thing that's not needed in the JLD feature, no one asked for him, no one wants or needs him there... the only reason he is, is because of money, because DC/WB think people buy anything with Batman on it.

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#26 Posted by entropy_aegis (20873 posts) - - Show Bio

@nicksmi56: Again they swtiched to the Batman/JL model precisely because the other properties didn't perform up to expectations. There's no point in debating this as they've been clear on that and Flashpoint was marketed ad a JL film.

So according to you Batman should just stand there and do nothing right? a 30 second pep talk to Jordan which amounted to nothing anyway because Diana took charge and helping Supes flippin off screen amounts to stealing the show? yeah right.

Damian beat a sucky Slade,Ubu as if anyone cares and a holding back Batman. He has no other actual victories. People just lose their minds every time he lands a punch or does something supposedly impossible as if he's the only kid in cartoons who pulls that stuff off.

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#27 Posted by SaintWildcard (21845 posts) - - Show Bio

The DC Animated movie stuff isn't that dark. I honestly believe they have a wide range of tones honestly. The Vixen stuff has been amazingly animated but it is a bit short. I'm also exited for them to bring back the Gods and Monsters series. Mexican Superman is best Superman

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#28 Edited by deactivated-5967bf6197d40 (2560 posts) - - Show Bio

@nicksmi56: Again they swtiched to the Batman/JL model precisely because the other properties didn't perform up to expectations. There's no point in debating this as they've been clear on that and Flashpoint was marketed ad a JL film.

So according to you Batman should just stand there and do nothing right? a 30 second pep talk to Jordan which amounted to nothing anyway because Diana took charge and helping Supes flippin off screen amounts to stealing the show? yeah right.

Damian beat a sucky Slade,Ubu as if anyone cares and a holding back Batman. He has no other actual victories. People just lose their minds every time he lands a punch or does something supposedly impossible as if he's the only kid in cartoons who pulls that stuff off.

It's not much of a debate as it is part of the wrongheadedness DC is going at these with. Hopefully it'll dispel now that Rebirth and the CW prove that people do in fact care about other DC characters.

No, obviously not, but 80% of the plot operating on him being the only member of the group with a functioning brain and the only one that can actually affect the narrative besides punching things certainly isn't the way to go either.

And people lose their minds because these really are his movies. We have soooooooo many other great characters we could see taking charge and getting the spotlight, but whenever Damian walks into a room, he's immediately better than everyone at everything, is treated like an fighting god, and never gets taken down a peg outside of very few exceptions. And let's throw in a scene of him slapping the crap out of Nightwing, who many people would love as a protagonist, for good measure.

To say nothing of the fact that all of his likability is gone. There's a reason Blue Beetle burning half his face off was so cathartic for many of the people that have been following this series of films.

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#29 Edited by entropy_aegis (20873 posts) - - Show Bio

@nicksmi56: Rebirth and CW have no bearing on the DTV animation market.How many movies does Marvel make exactly on that front again? if they cant push Iron Man and Cap in that area despite having the MCU success and the Disney what makes you think the CW junk will do any better?

You must be watching a different movie because Batman was far cry from 80% prominent. Even the story it's based on invited accusations that the writer hated Batman. You just dont want Batman there period.

Since Reyes did burn his face it proves all your points about him being better and never getting knocked down are false. You cant have it both ways.

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#30 Posted by deactivated-5967bf6197d40 (2560 posts) - - Show Bio

@nicksmi56: Rebirth and CW have no bearing on the DTV animation market.How many movies does Marvel make exactly on that front again? if they cant push Iron Man and Cap in that area despite having the MCU success and the Disney what makes you think the CW junk will do any better?

You must be watching a different movie because Batman was far cry from 80% prominent. Even the story it's based on invited accusations that the writer hated Batman. You just dont want Batman there period.

Since Reyes did burn his face it proves all your points about him being better and never getting knocked down are false. You cant have it both ways.

LOL. One instance of someone getting the better of him negates several movies' worth of him being supreme? As if.

....how? He literally drives the plot most of the time, all the other members would be dead without his specific influence on many occasions including telling Green Lantern how to do his job and he's the one who ultimately puts the cap on everything, yet the writer hates Batman? People need to use their brains.

And it has nothing to do with Marvel. it has to do with the fact that yes, if you do something based on another character besides Batman, actually market it properly (which Marvel certainly didn't do with the animated Iron Man/Cap film), and put some dang effort into it, people will in fact watch. Batman being the most popular doesn't mean everyone else is suddenly scrap.

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#31 Edited by jb681131 (3126 posts) - - Show Bio

@masterdetective:

First, the DC animated movies direct to dvd are movies made from existing stories in the comics. So what you are saying is that the DC superhero stories are too serious. Well DC has always been more serious than Marvel. But since they started adapting the New 52 stories, they center too much on Batman and make awfull adaptations.

Then there hasn't been many serious animated DC shows. They only began making serious shows in the 90's with Batman and all what they called the DCAU:

  • Batman: The animated series
  • Superman: The animated series
  • The New Batman Adventures
  • The New Batman/Superman Adventures
  • Batman Beyond
  • Statick Shock
  • Justice League
  • Justice League Unlimited
  • Young Justice
  • Green Lantern: The Animated Series

Then they made one Batman more adult oriented:

  • Beware the Batman

That is only 11 shows out of 40 they have produced over the years. So the "like in the past" as you say, is more "like the DCAU".

But don't get your hopes down, a third season for "Young Justice" has recently been anounced.

Don't blame them for the TV. Blame kids these days. Everything has to be adventure time :P

Not true. Kids will wach anything that's on tv.

@bluehope said:

DCEU was pretty serious without Flash.

Off topic

The DC Animated movie stuff isn't that dark. I honestly believe they have a wide range of tones honestly. The Vixen stuff has been amazingly animated but it is a bit short. I'm also exited for them to bring back the Gods and Monsters series. Mexican Superman is best Superman

DC tries to be kid oriented but there movies are really borderline. They are only "funny" because they got some heroes that are less serious (Plastic man, Aquaman, Shazam/Captain Marvel, Flash and Blue Beetle), but the stories are mostly serious.

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#32 Posted by StormShadow_X (16772 posts) - - Show Bio

@jb681131: And what did they respond the most to? Shows like Adventure time and Regular show both of which are good shows but it led to CN doing mostly comedy shows and bad ones at that (Uncle Grandpa? Seriously)

They've saved it a bit with Steven Universe which goes into topics that no other CN has gone in before

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#33 Posted by BlueHope (2681 posts) - - Show Bio

@jb681131: I mean DCAU so is not off topic to debunk his example.

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#34 Posted by HighAccuser (9696 posts) - - Show Bio

How are the DC DTV movies "too serious"? They're fine tonally IMO.

Yeah if anything they're either teeny bopper bullcrap like the CW or horribly pieces of shit like TTG .

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#35 Edited by jumpstart55 (11025 posts) - - Show Bio
  • Theres nothing wrong with DC Animation...Sigh.. The DC Direct to Video isnt too serious or too dark its realistic in terms of human nature....So as such its perfectly fine and its mature like that becuase its aimed at adults and more mature audiences then their other animation proprieties.
  • About DC being to immature: There probably realizing like Marvel that if you want a show specifically targeted at small children you dont really need to try that hard, and be all edgy and deep...Kids will eat up aslong its at-least descent with desirable animation.
  • Teen Titans Go and Justice League action are primarily for small children not grown ass adults and Teenagers...Youd be a fool to think otherwise...Kids are the ones that buy all the toys from said show...Which is why most Cartoon shows exist in the first place, to fund and expand the ever-growing toy market... Transformers, G.I Joe and Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles are the most well known and famous examples of that fact.
  • Great Shows like Young Justice, Avengers Earth Mightiest Heroes, Spectacular Spider-man, Teen Titans 2003 Batman: Tas, X-men Tas, Justice League DCAU, Wolverine and The X-men etc...Weren't just aimed at small children but everybody specifically teenagers and young adults...Thats part of the reason why they were written so well.... Shows aiamed at young children will always be inferior or look downright stupid to people older then that demographic...Many of the shows alot of you loved as small children may have looked good to you, but your parents or older relatives looked at it and saw nothing but stupidity...Us millennials who grew up watching classic Sponge-bob all maintain that it was better then the new stuff on TV, but ask most of your older relatives or older people in general...And they group both the new seasons and old seasons together as purely stupid..Same goes with alot of shows we liked as Kids like Invader Zim, Billy And Mandy, Kids Next Door..etc...Adults look at those shows and see mindless cartoons with an occasional clever joke...Atleast thats been my personal experience.
  • So its all about perspective and factoring the primary viewership demographic the show was intended for..
  • Like people say Disney can never make serious Animated show but Star Wars Rebels proves that theory wrong.. Star Wars Rebels is a pretty edgy and dark and serious show with grim consequences...Because like i said before its aimed at pleasing everybody, Adults, Teenagers and small children(The lifeblood of the Toy business).
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#36 Posted by TheKinfing (11793 posts) - - Show Bio

JL Action is great, and anything DC does is better than what Marvel is producing.

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#37 Posted by Alinver (87 posts) - - Show Bio

Justice league action is great though. TTG never really bothered me, I feel like it shouldn't be taken seriously like since it acknowledges itself as a parody.

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#38 Posted by black_wreath (13557 posts) - - Show Bio

Nothing. It's fine.

Quit living in the past.

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#39 Posted by entropy_aegis (20873 posts) - - Show Bio

@entropy_aegis said:

@nicksmi56: Rebirth and CW have no bearing on the DTV animation market.How many movies does Marvel make exactly on that front again? if they cant push Iron Man and Cap in that area despite having the MCU success and the Disney what makes you think the CW junk will do any better?

You must be watching a different movie because Batman was far cry from 80% prominent. Even the story it's based on invited accusations that the writer hated Batman. You just dont want Batman there period.

Since Reyes did burn his face it proves all your points about him being better and never getting knocked down are false. You cant have it both ways.

LOL. One instance of someone getting the better of him negates several movies' worth of him being supreme? As if.

....how? He literally drives the plot most of the time, all the other members would be dead without his specific influence on many occasions including telling Green Lantern how to do his job and he's the one who ultimately puts the cap on everything, yet the writer hates Batman? People need to use their brains.

And it has nothing to do with Marvel. it has to do with the fact that yes, if you do something based on another character besides Batman, actually market it properly (which Marvel certainly didn't do with the animated Iron Man/Cap film), and put some dang effort into it, people will in fact watch. Batman being the most popular doesn't mean everyone else is suddenly scrap.

Got beaten and carried away by Heretic got owned by Tusk and then almost killed off by Electrocutioner near immediately after that. Was manipulated by Talon throughout the movie in to joining his side and got owned by that guy too, only reason he survived is because Talon didn't want to kill him, was on the verge of being killed by demon flash. Stop, man just stop. If your solutions to these films are asinine statements like "they should stop putting Batman and Damian in them" then it's clear you dont have any clue how these things work. Maybe they should stop putting JL and those other D listers with Batman and Damian because they prevent the viewers from getting invested in to the characters they are really watching the films for in the first place, see that's your own argument flipped back at you.

Wth are you talking about? Batman drove the plot of JL War? what movie did you watch? Superman drove the plot of JL Doom then. This is just you pulling silly statements out of thin air. Batman did not put a cap on anything and yes Johns did invite accusations that he disliked Batman in that era and that film is a ditto copy of Johns story. If anything it was more centered on Wonder Woman and Cyborg. If your only actual example of Batman stealing the show is a 30 second pep talk to Jordan which didn't even accomplish anything then you're reaching hard.

Says you but DC DID market the heck out of GL, you have no idea how these things work at all. Saying character Z lister can become A lister if DC invested humongous sums of money on said character is a sure way to tank the business.

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#40 Edited by HighAccuser (9696 posts) - - Show Bio

@thekinfing said:

JL Action is great, and anything DC does is better than what Marvel is producing.

I disagree. I found the show unbearable based on premise and animation alone. Although comparing mediocre efforts from the animation department to horrible isn't much of a compassion for Marvel.

Currently both need heavy improvement.

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#41 Posted by entropy_aegis (20873 posts) - - Show Bio

@entropy_aegis said:

@outside_85: JL Dark has no business being in this feature in the first place. People wont buy it for them so they're going with their most dependable horse to sell the other guys. In the end you can bet it will really be a Constantine movie.

See what you put here, this is what I consider the wrongheaded and stupid opinion of DC and WB: that none of their characters save Batman and Superman can turn a dime, when in fact it's the biggest load of crap in the comic industry. The rest of the DCAU does not need to have it's hand held by the League or Batman in order for them to people to go and watch them.

Batman is the thing that's not needed in the JLD feature, no one asked for him, no one wants or needs him there... the only reason he is, is because of money, because DC/WB think people buy anything with Batman on it.

Yes and that's the sad part. I have no desire to personally see JL Dark at all. It's force feeding JL Dark and Batman on a JL film which circles back to my argument about Tucker trying to shirk his way the model his higher ups have imposed on him. In the end they're just using Batman to push other characters which isn't working and I think is actually harming the Batman brand. They're just trying to get the Batman fans to be interested in those JL Dark characters, frankly I'm not and I wont bother with that film so their strategy is failing when it comes to me.

Gimme Batman in a Batman film and gimme JL in a JL film. If they cant make a profitable JL Dark film starring just those characters then they should just stop.

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#42 Posted by ScouterV (7764 posts) - - Show Bio
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#43 Posted by ScouterV (7764 posts) - - Show Bio

@entropy_aegis: There's not a lot of middle ground when it comes to Batman, is there? Either he's the be-all, end-all star or he's useless.

More often than not, Batman plays a prominent role, even if he's not the star. I think you tend to downplay such occasions though.

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#44 Edited by deactivated-5967bf6197d40 (2560 posts) - - Show Bio

@entropy_aegis said:
@nicksmi56 said:
@entropy_aegis said:

@nicksmi56: Rebirth and CW have no bearing on the DTV animation market.How many movies does Marvel make exactly on that front again? if they cant push Iron Man and Cap in that area despite having the MCU success and the Disney what makes you think the CW junk will do any better?

You must be watching a different movie because Batman was far cry from 80% prominent. Even the story it's based on invited accusations that the writer hated Batman. You just dont want Batman there period.

Since Reyes did burn his face it proves all your points about him being better and never getting knocked down are false. You cant have it both ways.

LOL. One instance of someone getting the better of him negates several movies' worth of him being supreme? As if.

....how? He literally drives the plot most of the time, all the other members would be dead without his specific influence on many occasions including telling Green Lantern how to do his job and he's the one who ultimately puts the cap on everything, yet the writer hates Batman? People need to use their brains.

And it has nothing to do with Marvel. it has to do with the fact that yes, if you do something based on another character besides Batman, actually market it properly (which Marvel certainly didn't do with the animated Iron Man/Cap film), and put some dang effort into it, people will in fact watch. Batman being the most popular doesn't mean everyone else is suddenly scrap.

Got beaten and carried away by Heretic got owned by Tusk and then almost killed off by Electrocutioner near immediately after that. Was manipulated by Talon throughout the movie in to joining his side and got owned by that guy too, only reason he survived is because Talon didn't want to kill him, was on the verge of being killed by demon flash. Stop, man just stop. If your solutions to these films are asinine statements like "they should stop putting Batman and Damian in them" then it's clear you dont have any clue how these things work. Maybe they should stop putting JL and those other D listers with Batman and Damian because they prevent the viewers from getting invested in to the characters they are really watching the films for in the first place, see that's your own argument flipped back at you.

Wth are you talking about? Batman drove the plot of JL War? what movie did you watch? Superman drove the plot of JL Doom then. This is just you pulling silly statements out of thin air. Batman did not put a cap on anything and yes Johns did invite accusations that he disliked Batman in that era and that film is a ditto copy of Johns story. If anything it was more centered on Wonder Woman and Cyborg. If your only actual example of Batman stealing the show is a 30 second pep talk to Jordan which didn't even accomplish anything then you're reaching hard.

Says you but DC DID market the heck out of GL, you have no idea how these things work at all. Saying character Z lister can become A lister if DC invested humongous sums of money on said character is a sure way to tank the business.

Ok, so right now you're telling me 2 things.

1. You haven't listened to a word I've said, because I never said Batman or Damian should disappear completely, just not be starring all the time.

2. You're mad that I want Batman and his universe's role in these movies to be reduced in the first place.

Also, you're really gonna try and fool me into thinking JL War was more about Wonder Woman? She shows up, eats ice cram, awkwardly flirts with Superman, fights parademons. Ah, yes, movie's totally about her. And while Cyborg's origin gets focus, it's not ABOUT him as a character, because he doesn't get a moment where he gets to be proactive as a character besides, once again, killing parademons. He's just the plot McGuffin used to close the parademons' access to Earth.

Batman on the other hand:

Gets the intro sequence

Shows up Green Lantern constantly, making him out to be a buffoon and gets to tell him how to do his job and even how his own power ring works "Focus, Green Lantern! Concentrate! You weren't concentrating! You would think you know how to use your own powers, but apparently I have to do it for you even though we just met!"

Stops Superman from killing them

Is the first one to start recruiting people, telling Superman to come along (because Superman's just a punchy moron in this movie who can't see the value of teamwork. WHY?)

Gets the vast majority of the "thinking" moments

Saves Green Lantern from getting killed and tells him how to be a better hero

Saves Superman

Helps get Darkseid off Earth

Oh yeah, the writer reeeeaaallllyyy hates Batman. Did you want him to start explaining to Superman and Wonder Woman how their powers work too to offset all this "hatred"?

And how are people watching the films for Damian when half the comments whenever he shows up and overpowers someone that's supposed to be stronger than him are "Dang it, Damian!" "This is BS!" "How does Damian kick the crap out of Nightwing? Why does DC keep treating Nightwing like he doesn't matter?" "DICK should be the leader of the Titans, not freaking Damian! Or put Tim in there!" "Ugh, DC shoves Damian into every movie!" So much love for Damian right there.

And asking for decreased focus on Batman and Damian in favor of other characters isn't anywhere near "Stop putting them in them entirely." It's "Hey, maybe don't shove them into films that don't need them (Hey, maybe DON'T put Damian as the de-facto leader of the Titans, since they're way more than popular enough that they could've gotten a new animated film without his involvement and still done really well) and when they do need to be in a movie, make it less about them (Maybe DON'T have Batman tell Green Lantern how to be a Green Lantern, since it severely weakens that character) and more about these other characters.

DC can't whine that these other characters aren't popular enough if they're gonna turn them into whipping boys. They'll never get popular if they aren't allowed to demonstrate WHY they should be popular in the first place.

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#45 Posted by Outside_85 (23518 posts) - - Show Bio

Yes and that's the sad part. I have no desire to personally see JL Dark at all. It's force feeding JL Dark and Batman on a JL film which circles back to my argument about Tucker trying to shirk his way the model his higher ups have imposed on him.

In the end they're just using Batman to push other characters which isn't working and I think is actually harming the Batman brand. They're just trying to get the Batman fans to be interested in those JL Dark characters, frankly I'm not and I wont bother with that film so their strategy is failing when it comes to me.

Gimme Batman in a Batman film and gimme JL in a JL film. If they cant make a profitable JL Dark film starring just those characters then they should just stop.

Eh, well, you know as well as I that Tucker and his crew are on a sort of rotating schedule between one original production and one adaptation of a comic. I have to say I am disappointed you don't care about expanding the animated universe beyond Batman and the League, I think it's WB playing it as smart as Marvel is with their movies... otherwise they would have been stuck with the X-Men and Spiderman. So I wonder, why on earth should Warner Bros limited themselves to two franchises when there's so much else they could use?

You can't harm the Batman brand with anything less than an atrocious live action movie. You can however kneecap the rest of the DCU by making it seem reliant on his appearance to get greenlit for production. And as a JLD fan, I'd rather Batman stay in his own world and I rather not have his fans see the movie if he is all they care about before or after. The Flash TV show did not need Batman, Arrow did not need Batman (technically) and neither does Supergirl or Constantine... why the hell does the animation department have to include him?

And thats the thing, you will never know if they can as long as you continue to use Batman and the League as a crutch. I'd rather they try and fail without them, than seemingly succeed with them.

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#46 Posted by thatguywithheadphones (19859 posts) - - Show Bio

Batman is the only thing that sales so Batman is the only thing ya get. Ugh, his inclusion in JLD look so freaking unneeded.

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#47 Posted by Jonez_ (11445 posts) - - Show Bio

@aros001 said:
@stormshadow_x said:

Don't blame them for the TV. Blame kids these days. Everything has to be adventure time :P

You've never seen that much of Adventure Time, have you? Because that show can be both really fun and really dark.

I've seen plenty. Its mostly Fun and when its really Dark most kids don't understand it. Hasn't been good since season 2 anyway

niggey I hope you've only seen a handful of episodes because then I can give your bad opinion a pass

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#48 Posted by entropy_aegis (20873 posts) - - Show Bio

Yes and that's the sad part. I have no desire to personally see JL Dark at all. It's force feeding JL Dark and Batman on a JL film which circles back to my argument about Tucker trying to shirk his way the model his higher ups have imposed on him.

In the end they're just using Batman to push other characters which isn't working and I think is actually harming the Batman brand. They're just trying to get the Batman fans to be interested in those JL Dark characters, frankly I'm not and I wont bother with that film so their strategy is failing when it comes to me.

Gimme Batman in a Batman film and gimme JL in a JL film. If they cant make a profitable JL Dark film starring just those characters then they should just stop.

Eh, well, you know as well as I that Tucker and his crew are on a sort of rotating schedule between one original production and one adaptation of a comic. I have to say I am disappointed you don't care about expanding the animated universe beyond Batman and the League, I think it's WB playing it as smart as Marvel is with their movies... otherwise they would have been stuck with the X-Men and Spiderman. So I wonder, why on earth should Warner Bros limited themselves to two franchises when there's so much else they could use?

You can't harm the Batman brand with anything less than an atrocious live action movie. You can however kneecap the rest of the DCU by making it seem reliant on his appearance to get greenlit for production. And as a JLD fan, I'd rather Batman stay in his own world and I rather not have his fans see the movie if he is all they care about before or after. The Flash TV show did not need Batman, Arrow did not need Batman (technically) and neither does Supergirl or Constantine... why the hell does the animation department have to include him?

And thats the thing, you will never know if they can as long as you continue to use Batman and the League as a crutch. I'd rather they try and fail without them, than seemingly succeed with them.

I want to see more Teen Titans, Flash, Supes, GL etc films but I dont want them at the cost of JL and Batman films. I'm 100% supportive of line expansion but I dont support JL Dark and Batman take over a JL film. I dont supporting weaseling your way around the model you're supposed to work with. Either expand or dont is my advice to Tucker.

Animated movies are a different ball game apparently, I dont fully understand myself but I dont think animated movies are suited for brand building. The Supes films couldn't make it and Marvel films just fizzle out despite all their MCU success and having Disney's animation experts behind them.

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#49 Posted by entropy_aegis (20873 posts) - - Show Bio

@entropy_aegis said:
@nicksmi56 said:
@entropy_aegis said:

@nicksmi56: Rebirth and CW have no bearing on the DTV animation market.How many movies does Marvel make exactly on that front again? if they cant push Iron Man and Cap in that area despite having the MCU success and the Disney what makes you think the CW junk will do any better?

You must be watching a different movie because Batman was far cry from 80% prominent. Even the story it's based on invited accusations that the writer hated Batman. You just dont want Batman there period.

Since Reyes did burn his face it proves all your points about him being better and never getting knocked down are false. You cant have it both ways.

LOL. One instance of someone getting the better of him negates several movies' worth of him being supreme? As if.

....how? He literally drives the plot most of the time, all the other members would be dead without his specific influence on many occasions including telling Green Lantern how to do his job and he's the one who ultimately puts the cap on everything, yet the writer hates Batman? People need to use their brains.

And it has nothing to do with Marvel. it has to do with the fact that yes, if you do something based on another character besides Batman, actually market it properly (which Marvel certainly didn't do with the animated Iron Man/Cap film), and put some dang effort into it, people will in fact watch. Batman being the most popular doesn't mean everyone else is suddenly scrap.

Got beaten and carried away by Heretic got owned by Tusk and then almost killed off by Electrocutioner near immediately after that. Was manipulated by Talon throughout the movie in to joining his side and got owned by that guy too, only reason he survived is because Talon didn't want to kill him, was on the verge of being killed by demon flash. Stop, man just stop. If your solutions to these films are asinine statements like "they should stop putting Batman and Damian in them" then it's clear you dont have any clue how these things work. Maybe they should stop putting JL and those other D listers with Batman and Damian because they prevent the viewers from getting invested in to the characters they are really watching the films for in the first place, see that's your own argument flipped back at you.

Wth are you talking about? Batman drove the plot of JL War? what movie did you watch? Superman drove the plot of JL Doom then. This is just you pulling silly statements out of thin air. Batman did not put a cap on anything and yes Johns did invite accusations that he disliked Batman in that era and that film is a ditto copy of Johns story. If anything it was more centered on Wonder Woman and Cyborg. If your only actual example of Batman stealing the show is a 30 second pep talk to Jordan which didn't even accomplish anything then you're reaching hard.

Says you but DC DID market the heck out of GL, you have no idea how these things work at all. Saying character Z lister can become A lister if DC invested humongous sums of money on said character is a sure way to tank the business.

Ok, so right now you're telling me 2 things.

1. You haven't listened to a word I've said, because I never said Batman or Damian should disappear completely, just not be starring all the time.

2. You're mad that I want Batman and his universe's role in these movies to be reduced in the first place.

Also, you're really gonna try and fool me into thinking JL War was more about Wonder Woman? She shows up, eats ice cram, awkwardly flirts with Superman, fights parademons. Ah, yes, movie's totally about her. And while Cyborg's origin gets focus, it's not ABOUT him as a character, because he doesn't get a moment where he gets to be proactive as a character besides, once again, killing parademons. He's just the plot McGuffin used to close the parademons' access to Earth.

Batman on the other hand:

Gets the intro sequence

Shows up Green Lantern constantly, making him out to be a buffoon and gets to tell him how to do his job and even how his own power ring works "Focus, Green Lantern! Concentrate! You weren't concentrating! You would think you know how to use your own powers, but apparently I have to do it for you even though we just met!"

Stops Superman from killing them

Is the first one to start recruiting people, telling Superman to come along (because Superman's just a punchy moron in this movie who can't see the value of teamwork. WHY?)

Gets the vast majority of the "thinking" moments

Saves Green Lantern from getting killed and tells him how to be a better hero

Saves Superman

Helps get Darkseid off Earth

Oh yeah, the writer reeeeaaallllyyy hates Batman. Did you want him to start explaining to Superman and Wonder Woman how their powers work too to offset all this "hatred"?

And how are people watching the films for Damian when half the comments whenever he shows up and overpowers someone that's supposed to be stronger than him are "Dang it, Damian!" "This is BS!" "How does Damian kick the crap out of Nightwing? Why does DC keep treating Nightwing like he doesn't matter?" "DICK should be the leader of the Titans, not freaking Damian! Or put Tim in there!" "Ugh, DC shoves Damian into every movie!" So much love for Damian right there.

And asking for decreased focus on Batman and Damian in favor of other characters isn't anywhere near "Stop putting them in them entirely." It's "Hey, maybe don't shove them into films that don't need them (Hey, maybe DON'T put Damian as the de-facto leader of the Titans, since they're way more than popular enough that they could've gotten a new animated film without his involvement and still done really well) and when they do need to be in a movie, make it less about them (Maybe DON'T have Batman tell Green Lantern how to be a Green Lantern, since it severely weakens that character) and more about these other characters.

DC can't whine that these other characters aren't popular enough if they're gonna turn them into whipping boys. They'll never get popular if they aren't allowed to demonstrate WHY they should be popular in the first place.

You keep bringing up events that happen offscreen as examples of Batman stealing the show so yeah it leads to believe that you want him out altogether.

Why would I be mad at what you say? Batman films aren't going anywhere, that's what we both know.

Wonder Woman gets to lead the JL, Wonder Woman ends up in a romance with Superman that actually carries over to the next few films, Wonder Woman hurts Darkseid first and becomes Darkseid's actual target. This was Wonder Woman's first mission. No I dont believe it was a Diana centric film but these events are important.

On the other hand lets take a look at the Batman centricness you supposedly provided:

Childish bickering with a man child which everyone was doing at various points but some reason Batman gets singled out. I guess we can add Diana shutting up and punking Billy as "proof" that the film was Wonder Woman centric lol moving on.

It's based on a comic, the intro sequence was an adaptation from the comic and it actually starts with Jordan, moving further

Yes, after getting his ass kicked and then having his own identity exposed away without any agency.

Also gets saved by other heroes like you know every other team mission

Like every other team mission, all he did was attach his belt on Darkseid

I'm pleased to see you believe that deducing Desaad was right handed constitutes as "thinking", yeah that one scene showed everyone who's the smart guy.

Knowing Kal's identity was the ONLY important Batman event in this film, even inspiring Hal amounted to nothing.

Stop taking youtube comments seriously, Damian HAS legit appeal among kids, Robin generally has had that advantage. Son of Batman sold more even then both parts of TDKR and all movies in the 5-6 years that preceded it. A bunch of man children crying about feats isn't going to change that.

Damian aint the leader of TT bub.

LOL you actually think the likes of Starfire and Beast Boy can handle their own movies without some Robin? LOL LOL and LOL, delusional much?

No evidence to back up that claim, on the other hand there is evidence to the contrary.

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#50 Posted by Outside_85 (23518 posts) - - Show Bio

I want to see more Teen Titans, Flash, Supes, GL etc films but I dont want them at the cost of JL and Batman films. I'm 100% supportive of line expansion but I dont support JL Dark and Batman take over a JL film. I dont supporting weaseling your way around the model you're supposed to work with. Either expand or dont is my advice to Tucker.

Animated movies are a different ball game apparently, I dont fully understand myself but I dont think animated movies are suited for brand building. The Supes films couldn't make it and Marvel films just fizzle out despite all their MCU success and having Disney's animation experts behind them.

Well, thats the problem with having a model that doesn't actually allow you to go anywhere without Batman or JL inclusion. Correct me if I am wrong here, but beyond the original/adaptation rotation, isn't there also a bit of a rotation between the JL and Batman movies where one or the other has to be included on some level... like the JL in what was 95% a Teen Titans feature?

I have to agree, which is why I find it odd you think it can damage the Batman brand. I mean, I don't think the animated movies are a huge part of what WB does with DC, since they are 'direct to dvd' releases. They just fly under most people's radar, unlike the movies and TV shows. So... why not treat the animated movies like they seemingly do their toy-lines and just go a little nuts with it rather than sticking with whats safe?

Like, would it hurt WB at all to release a 'risky' movie that might fail, but might as well break new ground and open up a whole new thing? (Like they appear to have done with Suicide Squad.)