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Edited 4 years, 14 hours ago

Poll: What is more dense? King Kai's Planet or Earth's Sun? (54 votes)

King Kai's Planet 52%
The Sun 48%

I have been arguing this guy down for the past 2-3 days (on YouTube) that just because King Kai's planet has gravity 10x that of Earth's. Does not mean it is more durable than The Sun. I've given him math calculations of the planet's exact density and Earth's even multiplied by 10 is not more than The Sun's. It's WAY below it. He even went as far to say that King Kai's Planet is not only more durable than The Sun. But it's more durable than A White Dwarf Star.... He honestly believes this people.

This is the math formula I have him:

The Earth's density is 5.51 g/cm³. Multiply that by 10 and you get 55.1 g/cm³. The Density of our Solar System's sun is 162.2 g/cm³. The Density of a freaking white dwarf star is 1 billion kg/m³!

As you can see it is accurate and well done. That's assuming King Kai's planet is 10x as dense as the Earth. He seems to think because the planet is small with high gravity. That makes it even more dense. Which I think is like saying: "That truck sized diamond over there. Is more durable than that 20 ft rock."

If I am wrong please tell me in detail how although I'm pretty sure that I'm right. Because that math doesn't lie. But at the same time I do not know everything. However I'm confident that I know what I am talking about here.Those are the planet's EXACT densities in that formula.

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#2 Edited by Mee09 (5713 posts) - - Show Bio

@ariesxmasters: Honestly I think I never should have tried to explain it to him in the first place. I've asked the same question on other sites and they agree that he is wrong. And thanks for posting. I really do appreciate it!

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#3 Edited by ariesxmasters (4886 posts) - - Show Bio

@mee09 said:

@ariesxmasters: Honestly I think I never should have tried to explain to him in the first place. I've asked the same question on other sites and they agree that he is wrong. And thanks for posting. I really do appreciate it!

I mean the guy is obviously being deliberately difficult like it is common sense. The sun is 1 million times bigger than earth so naturally it would be significantly more dense. Goku being able to bust a whole through King Kai's planet doesn't mean he could possible dream to recreate that on the sun.

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#4 Posted by Mee09 (5713 posts) - - Show Bio

@ariesxmasters: I KNOW RIGHT! But he doesn't want to believe it! It's like he is refusing to! It's irritating man it really is.

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#5 Posted by Mee09 (5713 posts) - - Show Bio

Lol he just kicked me out the group I was in because I embarrassed him. I posted links to many sites and about 20-24 people disagreed with him.

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#6 Edited by bifronz (33 posts) - - Show Bio

Looks like they got that from a screw attack forum. Mathematically I believe he is right. sadly physics is not as simple as 10x gravity =10x density.

here is a link to the post calculating it. it you wanna see how they got those numbers.

http://www.screwattack.com/news/gokus-punchingkickingstriking-power

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#7 Edited by Mee09 (5713 posts) - - Show Bio

@bifronz: I know what they are talking about. But it's still not as dense as The Sun and ESPECIALLY not a White Dwarf. They aren't right and I actually know this now. 20-24 people in various forums have all said the same thing I've been preaching to them. King Kai's planet is not even compressed. It is literally just the remnants of what Beerus left of it. In other words there is less mass than there was before. So it should still keep it's density. Just not it's size and mass (because Beerus destroyed most of it). This is common sense that he cannot seem to grasp.

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#8 Posted by Imperfect_Cell (4022 posts) - - Show Bio

From Pope052:

The first calculation is figuring out the Mass of the planet using gravity and radius since those are the two things we know. Then the next step is the Volume, using the radius. And the third and last, is Density, using the Mass and Volume we calculated.

Mass Formula:

Rearanged gravity formula to calculate mass instead (had to do short hand got formula from wikipedia) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surface_gravity

  • G = m/r^2
  • M = r^2 x g

Volume Formula:

V = (4/3) × pi × r^3

Density Formula:

P = M/V

List of Calculators Used:

Calculations:

  • G = m/r^2
  • M = r^2 x g
  • M = 0.0000156961230576^2 x 10
  • M = 0.0000000024636827904 Earth Masses
  • Earth's Mass = 5.97219 × 10^24 Kilograms
  • 5.97219 × 10^24 X 0.0000000024636827904 = 14,713,581,723,998,976
  • M = 14,713,581,723,998,976 kg

This considers King Kai's Planet as 100M radius & X10 times Earth's Gravity.

The small number is the size of King Kai's Planet Radius in relation to Earths:

  • Volume of a Sphere is V = (4/3) × pi × r^3
  • V = (4/3) × pi × 100m^3 = 4188790.2047863905m^3

This is using King Kai's Planet as 100M radius.

Knowing the Mass and Volume, we can get the Density:

  • P = M/V
  • P = 14713581723998976kg / 4188790.2047863905m^3
  • P = 3.512608892.9415128417291527 X 10^9 kg/m^3

Density of a White Dwarf Star: "The average density of matter in a White Dwarf must therefore be, very roughly, 1,000,000 times greater than the average density of the Sun, or approximately 10^6 g/cm3." Which translates to 10^9 kg/m^3. So in other words it is over 3.5 times as dense as a White Dwarf Star.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_dwarf

The Dimensions of the Planet don't matter, only the Density, since we are talking about a Punch, not a Ki Blast.

King Kai's planet is no more than 30 Meters in Diameter (Pixels-Scaling), but even if it is 40, 50 or 90 Meters, the order of Magnitude (physically talking), is still the same (i.e. 10).

Now, Gravitational Force of a planet is given by this Formula:

F = (G*M*m)/r^2

G is the Universal Gravitational Constant (6,67*10^-11 [m^3/(kg*s^2)];

M is the Mass of the Planet (M is the Generic Reference of Mass)

R is the Radius of the Planet (or Distance between the two Mass's Centers)

Since King Kai's Gravitational Force is X10 times the Earth's Gravitational Force, we have Fk (Gravitational Force of King Kai's Planet) X10 times bigger than Fe (Earth's Gavity):

Fk/Fe = [(G*Mk*m)/rk^2]/[(G*Me*m)/re^2] = 10

G and M are in commons and go away, so we have:

(Mk/rk^2)/(Me/re^2) = 10

Mass is Volume (V)*Density (D), with Volume (of a Generical Planet) = (4/3)*π*r^3;

Back to the Formula:

((4/3)*π*rk^3*Dk)/rk^2 = Fk and ((4/3)*π*re^3*De)/re^2 = Fe, so:

Fk/Fe = (Dk*rk)/(De*re) = 10.

The only unknown term is Dk (density of King Kai's planet), while we know De and Re of Earth and Rk = 15 meters (assuming a diameter of King Kai's planet of 30 m, as previously said).

So, Dk = 1,17*10^10 kg/m^3, while density of Earth (De) is 5,5153*10^3 kg/m^3, so the Density of King Kai's planet is around X2 Million times higher than the Density of Earth, and Goku Punched a whole hole throughout this material.

Even if King Kai's planet had the same Gravitational Force as Earth, the fact it has such a small Diameter would still imply a huge Density, and indeed it would still have a Density around 200,000 times larger than the Density of the Earth.

Indeed, what really matters when talking about Physical Punches is the Density, and AT, giving us a planet of a few meters of Diameter and with a Gravitational Force X10 times greater than the one on Earth, is indisputably giving us that previously said enormous level of Density.

Imaging taking a Cube of 1 Meter of each side of the following materials:

  • Average Sun Composition: It would weigh around 1.4 Tons.
  • Average Earth Composition: It would weigh around 5.5 Tons.
  • Core of the Sun Material: It would weigh 150 Tons.
  • King Kai's Planet Material: It would weigh around 10 Million Tons.
  • Neutron Star Material: It would weigh around 280,000 Billion(s) Tons.

Punching the Core of the Sun would obviously require inhumane Striking Power, regardless of how much Matter (in KG) you punch away. Even worse would be just trying to physically scratch the surface of a Neutron Star.

A not even Blood-Lusted SSJ3 Goku actually vaporizes (with one punch) a whole quantity of a material (which according to canon info about King Kai's planet) that has thousands of times the Density of the Sun's Core.

Thus punching through Earth material for Goku would be a joke for him ( it would be like punching thin air for us), and the Earth would collapse on itself.

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#10 Edited by Mee09 (5713 posts) - - Show Bio

@imperfect_cell: That would be true if King Kai's planet was actually compressed. But it's not. Beerus out right said he destroyed most of it. Meaning most of it's mass is gone. It's not there anymore. The planet kept it's density. But it didn't keep its previous mass because Beerus got rid of it.

Also density does not solely depend on gravity.

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#11 Edited by Dewin50 (1453 posts) - - Show Bio

@mee09 said:

@imperfect_cell: That would be true if King Kai's planet was actually compressed. But it's not. Beerus out right said he destroyed most of it. Meaning most of it's mass is gone. It's not there anymore. The planet kept it's density. But it didn't keep its previous mass because Beerus got rid of it.

You're making a rookie mistake since distance matters when talking gravity. For a small planet like that to produce that kind of pull it needs to be compressed with alot of mass making it dense as shown above.

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#12 Edited by Mee09 (5713 posts) - - Show Bio

@dewin50: That doesn't mean it's more dense than the core of The Sun. And especially not a white Dwarf. There are a lot of things that can debunk what you've said. For one the Kai create planets (it's a fictional planet too). So it isn't out of the realm of possibility that he helped the planet keep it's gravitational pull. Again density does not solely depend on gravity. The Average composition of the sun is like 1.41 g/cm³. And it has 28x the gravity of The Earth.

It also contains over 98% of the mass in the Solar System.

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#13 Edited by buttersdaman000 (22763 posts) - - Show Bio

Density =/= hardness

proof squashed lol :/

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#14 Posted by Dewin50 (1453 posts) - - Show Bio

@mee09: Yes it does. While the suns core has 28x 1G i'd imagine it also being a lot bigger than king Kai's planet.

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#15 Edited by Mee09 (5713 posts) - - Show Bio

@dewin50: Which is EXACTLY why it's more dense. The Sun has SOO much more mass to work with than King Kai's planet. King Kai's planet supposedly has 10x the Earth's mass and gravity (I want to see scans of King Kai's planet being stated to be 10x the mass of Earth's there are plenty of planets out there with mass MUCH greater than Earth's and their density is not increased because of it). The Sun could fit 1,300,000 earths in it and has much greater gravity. But it's density doesn't get ridiculously high until you get to The Core.

It's density outside of the core is only 1.41 g/cm³ which is near 5 times less than The Earth's. When you get to the center it's density becomes 162.2 g/cm³. The same rules DO NOT apply for King Kai's planet because not only is it ridiculously smaller than the Sun even pre-hide n seek with Beerus. But 10x Earth's mass isn't even comparable to The Sun's. And you are talking about distance? Which has more distance?

The star that can fit 1,300,000 Earth's in it? Or the planet that HYPOTHETICALLY is just Earth's 10x?

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#16 Posted by buttersdaman000 (22763 posts) - - Show Bio

@dewin50: @mee09:

Density does not positively correlate with hardness. The math in that equation is pretty much sound, but it doesn't prove anything as far as that feat goes. If Goku had moved that planet/thrown it, then the equation would be relevant. But, punching through it proves nothing. For example, Diamond is less dense than Gold, but much harder. The sun, and some gas clouds in space are super dense, but it doesn't even make sense to measure their hardness because neither have any real "permanent" shape. So, again, density =/= hardness.

Goku punched through rock. The only thing we can say for certain is that Goku punched through a really heavy object.

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#17 Edited by Mee09 (5713 posts) - - Show Bio

@buttersdaman000: I wont dispute the feat. Goku punched through it which is impressive. But King Kai's planet is not more dense than The Sun. That was the whole point of the argument. And you are right density does not equate to hardness. But with all The Sun's mass and it's density at the core. I'm pretty sure King Kai's planet would be easier to go through than The Sun (including it's core). The Core is so dense that it would would resemble hardness on a scale King Kai's planet can't compete with.

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#18 Posted by buttersdaman000 (22763 posts) - - Show Bio

@mee09 said:

@buttersdaman000: I wont dispute the feat. Goku punched through it which is impressive. But King Kai's planet is not more dense than The Sun. That was the whole point of the argument. And you are right density does not equate to hardness. But with all The Sun's mass and it's density at the core. I'm pretty sure King Kai's planet would be easier to go through than The Sun (including it's core). The Core is so dense that it would would resemble hardness on a scale King Kai's planet can't compete with.

The feat is impressive, but it's being presented as a striking feat when it really isn't. I don't know how to really quantify it since the hardness of the rock doesn't change, but the density does.

Well, IIRC, the sun's core is plasma so I don't imagine there would be any hardness to it at all since it's not a solid. The density would be more akin to really thick syrup that would be extremely hard to move through.

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#19 Edited by Dewin50 (1453 posts) - - Show Bio

@mee09: Which is EXACTLY why it's more dense. The Sun has SOO much more mass to work with than King Kai's planet. King Kai's planet supposedly has 10x the Earth's mass and gravity

King Kai's planet doesn't have 10x Earth's mass since then i'd be a black hole. You're confusing mass with density, the suns core has greater gravitational pull than KKs planet but not per square inc.

(I want to see scans of King Kai's planet being stated to be 10x the mass of Earth's there are plenty of planets out there with mass MUCH greater than Earth's and their density is not increased because of it).

Here's one

It's density outside of the core is only 1.41 g/cm³ which is near 5 times less than The Earth's. When you get to the center it's density becomes 162.2 g/cm³. The same rules DO NOT apply for King Kai's planet because not only is it ridiculously smaller than the Sun even pre-hide n seek with Beerus. But 10x Earth's mass isn't even comparable to The Sun's. And you are talking about distance? Which has more distance?

The star that can fit 1,300,000 Earth's in it? Or the planet that HYPOTHETICALLY is just Earth's 10x?

Now you're wrong on so many levels.

1. You're confusing the concept of Mass, Density and Size

1,5. KKs planet doesn't have even close to the earth's mass let alone the Suns but it is still denser than both and their core.

2. KK's planet pre Beerus gravity and mass was probably alot greater since his current planet is only a fraction of the old one.

3. Now you're comparing the entire Sun vs KKs planet witch doesn't matter in any way.

The suns core is stronger than KKs planet but it's not denser.

If it were then one could carve out a KK planet sized part from the suns core and i'd have greater gravity than KKs planet but it won't since that part is not compressed with enough mass to produce that pressure.

I did some quick math and the Suns core is about 11 272 Trillion cubic Kilometers in size. And KKs planet is what? Less than 100meters. For so much pressure to come out of such small space is gonna have to be Really dense.

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#20 Edited by Mee09 (5713 posts) - - Show Bio

@dewin50: King Kai's planet is not even compressed to begin with. The only reason you are even assuming the planet is denser than The Earth is because it's gravity is 10x The Earths'. Gravity does not depend on density. Saturn's gravity is BARELY above

EDIT: For some reason I said that Saturn was more dense than the Earth

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#21 Posted by Dewin50 (1453 posts) - - Show Bio

@buttersdaman000: Well we're talking about density here. The hardness is for another debate.

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#22 Posted by bifronz (33 posts) - - Show Bio

@mee09: Well you are arguing against math which takes into consideration a number of different factors with hear-say. You seem hung up on the idea that since it is a fragment it cannot have that level of density. Fact is that density is required to have that level of gravity at that size of planet.

Honestly the correct answer to the question is most likely that they are in other world, were the laws of physic do not actually apply and gravity is most likely artificial and has no actual connection to the planet. This is supported by the fact that hell and snake road both show gravity yet neither are near a planet which would generate gravity.

Also the writers made no effort to respect the laws of physic. Perfect example is anybody training at 300x gravity (especially yamcha since hes human). their skeleton would have weighed nearly 3 tons and should have killed him instantly.

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#23 Posted by Mee09 (5713 posts) - - Show Bio

@dewin50: I AM talking about density. Jupiter's gravity is almost 5x Earth's. But guess what? It's density is lower than the Earths'.

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#24 Edited by Dewin50 (1453 posts) - - Show Bio

@mee09 said:

@dewin50: King Kai's planet is not even compressed to begin with. The only reason you are even assuming the planet is denser than The Earth is because it's gravity is 10x The Earths'. Gravity does not depend on density. Saturn's gravity is BARELY above The Earth's but it's density is leagues above The Earths'.

Everything with mass in compressed either more or less. And what have you been smoking with that Saturn being leagues above earth in density? It's a gas giant!

And yes i "assume" that a planet with 10x1G with a volume that small is dense. That's how the math works.

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#25 Posted by Mee09 (5713 posts) - - Show Bio

@bifronz: That is another of many things that debunk that calc. That is a fictional planet that doesn't even exist in space. Plus King Kai has shown the abilities of TK and TP and Kais create planets. It's perfectly feasible that he could have gave what was left of the planet it's own gravitational pull. I'm not saying that he did. But it is feasible.

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#26 Posted by Dewin50 (1453 posts) - - Show Bio

@mee09 said:

@dewin50: I AM talking about density. Jupiter's gravity is almost 5x Earth's. But guess what? It's density is lower than the Earths'.

Because of it's size jesus. Either you need to be denser or bigger (Or both for a combo effect) to get the highest Gravitational pull. That's how physics work.

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#27 Posted by Mee09 (5713 posts) - - Show Bio

@dewin50 said:

@mee09 said:

@dewin50: King Kai's planet is not even compressed to begin with. The only reason you are even assuming the planet is denser than The Earth is because it's gravity is 10x The Earths'. Gravity does not depend on density. Saturn's gravity is BARELY above The Earth's but it's density is leagues above The Earths'.

Everything with mass in compressed either more or less. And what have you been smoking with that Saturn being leagues above earth in density? It's a gas giant!

And yes i "assume" that a planet with 10x1G with a volume that small is dense. That's the math works.

Lol my bad I did not mean to say that. I have a whole lot going through my head right now.

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#28 Posted by Dewin50 (1453 posts) - - Show Bio

@mee09 said:

@dewin50 said:

@mee09 said:

@dewin50: King Kai's planet is not even compressed to begin with. The only reason you are even assuming the planet is denser than The Earth is because it's gravity is 10x The Earths'. Gravity does not depend on density. Saturn's gravity is BARELY above The Earth's but it's density is leagues above The Earths'.

Everything with mass in compressed either more or less. And what have you been smoking with that Saturn being leagues above earth in density? It's a gas giant!

And yes i "assume" that a planet with 10x1G with a volume that small is dense. That's the math works.

Lol my bad I did not mean to say that. I have a whole lot going through my head right now.

It's ok. I forget most of the time how sh*t like this works too.

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#29 Posted by Mee09 (5713 posts) - - Show Bio

@dewin50: Okay. You've got a point there. But The Sun is still more dense than King Kai's planet.

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#30 Edited by Dewin50 (1453 posts) - - Show Bio

@mee09: Well no since how enormous the sun is compared to KKP and that's where it gets its Gravity from. I mean Jupiter is two and a half times that of all the other planets in the Solar System combined and it's still just 0.001% of the Suns mass.

Lets say this, we have a piece of iron (size 1cm circumference) and a bigger piece of wood (1m circumference) . The wood piece is much stronger and heavier than the iron piece but theiron is denser. If you cut out the size of the iron (1cm circumference) on the wood the iron outclass it easily and the same if you collected enough iron to get the size of the wood (1m circumference)

The same works here with the Sun and KKP.

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#31 Edited by SuperDrummer (1899 posts) - - Show Bio

@mee09 I'll make things simple.

To calculate gravity, you use

F (force on an object) = (G (a universal constant) X m1 (mass of the first object) X m2 (mass of the second object) ) / r (the distance)^2

F=ma (a being acceleration) , and using simple math we can say ma=(G*m1*m2)/r^2

This means we can figure out the acceleration of either mass, depending on which m we use for f=ma. Once we do, we cancel it from both sides. It doesn't matter which we cancel as long as we remember that the planet's mass will be left in the equation as if we are solving for a person's mass, and vice versa.

We now have a (acceleration of a person (aka the gravity in m/s))=(G (a universal constant) *m (mass of the planet) )/r (distance from the planet's center of mass, which in this case the surface) ^2, or a=(Gm)/r^2

We know the acceleration there is ten times earth's, or roughly 100m/s, we know the universal constant, and we know roughly the radius of the planet (lets just say a 100m radius). So we plug all that in. We now have:

100=(6.7*10^-11*m)/100^2

The mass of king kai's planet is roughly 1.5*10^16 kg.

The volume of a sphere is V=(4/3)πr^3, and if r is 100, it's volume will be 4.2*10^6

It's density (m/V) will roughly be 3.5*10^9 kg/m^3, and you can just use wikipedia for density comparison:

No Caption Provided

#physicsteacher

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#32 Posted by midnightdragon18 (9869 posts) - - Show Bio

Listen

Akira Toriyama does not give a single fu*k about any of these calculations.

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#33 Posted by SuperDrummer (1899 posts) - - Show Bio

Listen

Akira Toriyama does not give a single fu*k about any of these calculations.

Loading Video...

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#34 Posted by gokuss4z (3418 posts) - - Show Bio

There's no way Goku can bust a sun with a punch it's a million times the size of earth not to mention it's mostly made up of plasma which is completely different from rock.

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#35 Posted by MasterKungFu (20773 posts) - - Show Bio

lol KK's planet is fictional

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#36 Posted by bifronz (33 posts) - - Show Bio

@mee09: which is why I said in my original comment that mathematically correct. if you apply actual rules of physics he is absolutely correct. But people are arguing over a question where no correct answer exist, only possibilities. If you want reality there is the math, if you want in-universe reasoning your really out of luck, since the rules of DBZ-verse are vague at best.

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#37 Posted by MetalJimmor (6434 posts) - - Show Bio

Am I the only one who remembers King Kai's "planet" also happens to be floating over HELL and is right next to a floating road that runs on for hundreds of miles?

It's clearly a magic planet in a magical realm. There's no way it'd be in orbit just barely above cloud level to the land beneath it if it had ten times Earth's gravity.

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#38 Posted by SuperDrummer (1899 posts) - - Show Bio

Am I the only one who remembers King Kai's "planet" also happens to be floating over HELL and is right next to a floating road that runs on for hundreds of miles?

It's clearly a magic planet in a magical realm. There's no way it'd be in orbit just barely above cloud level to the land beneath it if it had ten times Earth's gravity.

Actually, the gravity is ALL that we know for certain...

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#39 Edited by LE0NHART (2063 posts) - - Show Bio

@mee09

king kai's planet is not 10 x denser than earth, based on calculations and physics it has a density equal to 7.017E+9 kg/m³

earth's density = 5503 kg/m³

which means king kai's planet is 1275122660 x denser than earth

by the way the sun's density is smaller than earth's density :)

note: i assumed a diameter of 100 meters for king kai's planet, and i am talking about average density here

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#40 Posted by MetalJimmor (6434 posts) - - Show Bio

@superdrummer:

I know, which was my point. The planet is clearly magic and any attempt to use science to determine anything about it is completely pointless. Yes, it has ten times Earth's gravity. But that doesn't mean the planet is hyper dense and indestructible. It's floating over Hell... And yet people want to treat it like a normal celestial body.

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#41 Posted by SuperDrummer (1899 posts) - - Show Bio

@metaljimmor: Sorry, I misread that.

Yea, that's the thing about dbz. There is no right way to look at it, things are just unexplained.

Personally, I use science unless it is expressly stated or shown you can't. In this case, it could just be the clouds are magical. Neither approach is right, and neither approach is wrong, that's just the nature of fiction.

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#42 Posted by deactivated-5cb5c24a12dfe (1476 posts) - - Show Bio

@midnightdragon18 said:

Listen

Akira Toriyama does not give a single fu*k about any of these calculations.

Loading Video...

In this context, this guy's statement basically means that your precious feats are subjective instead of objective and that calcs (or, god forbid, pixel scaling) are only applicable for the readers that read a comic with a ruler in one hand and a calculator in the other.

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#43 Posted by MyBodysSoIntenseRightNow (68 posts) - - Show Bio

The sun...

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#44 Posted by PrinceAragorn1 (31807 posts) - - Show Bio

king kai's planet is thousands of times more dense than the sun, but the energy needed to destroy it billions of times less than the moon. Not kidding at all. Try doing the math, and you'll get the same answer.

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#45 Posted by APEX_pretador (20339 posts) - - Show Bio

WTF with all the misconceptions about this thread? King kai's planet is millions of times denser than sun (Denser, not heavier).

And, gravity depends on Density X Radius

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#46 Posted by hizack123 (429 posts) - - Show Bio

To people who said "even if he can punch this hard, he can't use it as long range"

Why did he need to do that? I mean He can easily shoot a Ki blast many more time powerful then that easily.

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#47 Posted by jaakor (292 posts) - - Show Bio

Bump. The calculation is correct, checked it over and over again