Was Anakin Skywalker more powerful in the Force than Count Dooku?

@dalootajr@darthadi@alextheboss@richard96@alphaq@el_mago@lord_tenebrous@finalkingthanos@o0deadman0o@grinningf0x@mattyboi@devoidruby@mygod000@camilopezo@necromancer76@grinningf0x@redshift_bacon@ineedhim@banasura@ubercoffeetime@eredin12@crater_maker@sxe619@thebluedragon20@drunkhc@firestarlord73194@heisenberg57@insanity_@emmafrostxmen@yousufkhan1212@co-boss@rgr

Palpatine says he is in the movie, and I would take his word as a valid because he knows how powerful Dooku and Anakin because he's known them both for 13 years, and additional sources agree with Palpatine.

yes

I'd say yes. Skill was the reason dooku could hang for a bit but even that eventually failed due to anakin's raw power

Anakin is more powerful by far.

He is overall more powerful, but in a force only battle, Dooku would still have the edge at this time due to lightning and his feat of ragdolling Kenobi, which Anakin couldn't do. If Anakin got made enough I think he could over power Dooku though. For example, when he found out Padme died.

who voted no o_o

Yes. Obi-Wan matching Anakin's TK is PIS

They are near equals. They fought many times because Sidious was constantly pitting them against each other. Shortly before RotS, Anakin had grown to the point they were evenly matched.

She spared a glance for Dooku, one level down. The fight between him and Anakin was close and constantly shifting. Ventress felt a brief flash of amusement as she realized that for the first time, she was actually rooting for Skywalker.

-Dark Disciple

As early as TCW movie Anakin was doing well vs Dooku for at least two minutes, but he wasn't superior to Ventress yet. This leads me to think his characteristically relentless aggression was stylistically favourable against Dooku's technique. So even though Anakin defeated Dooku in RotS, he was probably still roughly on his level.

That said, Anakin would maybe show greater flashes of brilliance, seeing as his potential was much higher. He's also younger and more resilient, so I would say he's got the slight edge overall.

we got numeral sources and numeral accolades that say anakin>dooku even by the time of AOTC and furthermore backed up by palpatine himself during rots

Yes? Seriously lol

No it's because Kenobi and Anakin knew each other and their fighting styles so well that they both went to do the same move at the same time and consequently knocked each other back. Dooku caught Kenobi off guard.

Anakin beat him in lightsaber combat. Whenever the force was involved, he was overpowered. So by movie logic, Dooku is more powerful in the force.

Yes, I think that kenobi was just more connected to the force by mustafar (like how the old novels used to say), so him matching anakin isn’t an anakin anti feat but more so a pro feat for kenobi.

Yes

@death-killer: Possibly, but I'm not sure there is direct proof Kenobi was taken off guard. I don't remember Anakin having any raw force feats throughout all of the CW that puts him above Dooku in power, besides the mortis arc of course. As we saw in ep 3, in overall combat, Anakin was more powerful than Dooku, but he lacks TK feats that put him above Dooku from what I've seen.

Yes.

Of course not. A stronger Anakin on Mustafar was straining to shield himself from Obi-Wan's Force Push. Dooku meanwhile outright pressured Yoda with his lightning. The movies were pretty clear. The only case for Anakin being anywhere near Dooku stems from EU material.

@alextheboss: He was taken off guard in the sense that he wasn't prepared for the attack because Dooku outmaneuvered him:

He can’t fight in two directions at once, Obi-Wan thought as he came up behind the Count. If we can—

Count Dooku half-turned and raised a hand. A rush of dark power lifted Obi-Wan off his feet and choked the air from his lungs. He reached for the Force to counter Dooku, but the attack had been too sudden.

--Prequel Trilogy: Episode III: Revenge of the Sith.

It's the same thing that these people did but can't replicate at will:

Yes.

Like I said, EU material.

@rgr:

A) Ventress was rage-amped, that's not her taking them off guard.

B) Whenever Maul has tried to use the Force on Kenobi, he's succeeded, so that's unsubstantiated speculation.

C) Kanan was clearly amped, in an effort to save Ezra. He was exhausted by the act and before that he was telekinetically one-shot by the GI.

@rgr: Kenobi thought Ventress was beaten, so it makes sense he was taken off guard, plus she was desperate. Maul has bullied Kenobi with the force throughout CW, and him and Dooku have both abused Obi-wan mid combat with the force. Dooku has shown to be Anakin's superior throughout the CW in the force, and it's possible Anakin surpassed him in ROTS, but there really isn't any proof.

@lord_tenebrous: I have a hard time believing a rage amped Ventress is infinitely superior to Anakin and Obi-Wan combined, that Maul and Dooku wouldn't ragdoll Obi-Wan in every duel if they could and that Kanan was amped to the point he ragdolled someone who is stated to be much more powerful than him in the Force. Plus, the novelization quote clearly explains that the attack was too sudden for Obi-Wan to counter.

But if you still want to believe that passive Force barriers are a thing despite no evidence of that, so be it.

EDIT: Btw, I take it Vader wasn't distracted when Kanan and Ezra Force pushed him either?

Sidious already gave us the answer:

"Soon I will have a new apprentice. One far younger and more powerful."

As for the apparent inconsistencies notice that when Dooku grips Kenobi he isn't in a position to defend himself; he just had his arms forcibly raised upright, whereas Anakin and Kenobi both anticipated each others attack. It's like taking a punch. If you see it coming you can brace yourself for it and take the sting out of it, its the ones you don't see coming that really hurt you. All the times a Force user successfully repelled a Force attack they clearly braced themselves for the impact. For example Ventress Force pushed Anakin on Kamino when he wasn't ready but later in the same battle he blunted the impact of the same attack just fine because unlike the first time he was ready for it. Similarly Kenobi along with Anakin blunted Dooku's Force push just fine in season 6 because they saw it coming. The only time I've seen a Force user in canon overpowered despite having their guard up was Adi Gallia who was blasted despite visibly having her arms braced in a defensive posture, which is a testament to how powerful Savage is.

As for Ventress in season 3 easy. The first time they thought she was defeated and she lashed out unexpectedly. Later after they had her disarmed they were on their guard and had their blades inches from her throat if she tried anything.

As for Maul he simply timed Kenobi when he was in the middle of an attack sequence on both occasions. Good skill showing, but it's not the same as when Savage blasted Adi with her guard up.

Anakin probably has a good edge in raw power but Dooku is more skilled and experienced

Hell Maul even Force gripped Sidious if we go by the Lawless deleted scenes and it was the same situation as all the times he gripped Kenobi: Sidious was in the middle of a attacking sequence; lightning in that instance, and Maul took a chance and caught him. You can cry non-canon but it shows that the creators don't believe in passive barriers. It's all about the timing.

@kilius:

"Sidious already gave us the answer" 

Actual movie feats >>>>>> Sidious' subjective, fallible statements that were meant to reassure Grievous who was distraught over Count Dooku's death. Somehow I don't think "We lost the architect of the Separatist movement, and your master, but don't worry I have a much weaker, less experienced and less diplomatically capable apprentice on the way" would have been a wise course of action.

"All the times a Force user successfully repelled a Force attack they clearly braced themselves for the impact. For example Ventress Force pushed Anakin on Kamino when he wasn't ready but later in the same battle he blunted the impact of the same attack just fine because unlike the first time he was ready for it." 

Anakin didn't brace himself for Ventress' push. He braced himself well after he had already been hit -- in fact, after the clones behind him were hit. Here's what he looked like when he was hit: 

https://photos.app.goo.gl/z33Mwqu6Vizxr5ko8

And here's when he actually "braced" himself:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/ef7FLfBMY5PHr8ZX7

Fast is, Ventress just wasn't able to hurl him by the end of the fight. Maybe spreading the wave out to hit the clones weakened the blast. Maybe hurling Anakin earlier cost too much of her reserves. Who knows. But she was capable of hurling Anakin prior, and he wasn't caught off guard. Anakin was facing her in a combat ready stance, and Ventress lifted her hand up for obvious reasons before actually pushing forward:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/iDK5PxRntEUUua468

If he was able to stop it, he would have. 

"Similarly Kenobi along with Anakin blunted Dooku's Force push just fine in season 6 because they saw it coming." 

It's dubious as to whether or not Dooku ever truly exerts himself Force-wise in TCW against the duo, but it was spread out and one-handed.  

"The only time I've seen a Force user in canon overpowered despite having their guard up was Adi Gallia who was blasted despite visibly having her arms braced in a defensive posture, which is a testament to how powerful Savage is." 

Ehh, that's questionable. It looks more like Gallia was raising her lightsaber in a blocking motion, than bracing herself for the push: 

https://photos.app.goo.gl/yJx9wuBx99oA8RLq7

https://photos.app.goo.gl/xQkuELcwuQcn48N59

Not to mention, you're setting up your argument as incapable of being challenged. Your contention is that Force users have never successfully ragdolled each other when they brace themselves, which proves that passive barriers aren't a thing, but when Force users allegedly ragdoll each other when they're braced, you say this just means they're that powerful.

@lord_tenebrous:

"Actual movie feats >>>>>> Sidious' subjective" You weren't shy about using Palpatine's fear of Ventress's growing power as a legitimate source on her and Dooku being able to defeat Palps when he has far superior feats to either of them.

@dalootajr:

It wasn't just Sidious' opinion though. The source didn't say "Sidious thought," it said, "Sidious knew." As in, Sidious' opinion aligned with the actual truth as layed out by the objective OOU writer. Not the same.

And, Sidious does not have much better feats than Dooku.

@lord_tenebrous:

"And, Sidious does not have much better feats than Dooku." Playing with Maul and Savage > anything Dooku has done in canon.

@dalootajr:

Well no, because Dooku did the same thing to Ventress and Savage -- to a greater degree too -- which is arguably more impressive.

And, stalemating Yoda while tired out is more impressive than that.

@lord_tenebrous:

"Well no, because Dooku did the same thing to Ventress and Savage -- to a greater degree too -- which is arguably more impressive." Bro what he was pressed by both of them how was it to a greater degree than Palpatine's domination of the brothers?!

"And, stalemating Yoda while tired out is more impressive than that." Dooku didn't stalemate him he escaped and Palpatine matched Yoda and arguably defeated him but I don't think that's canon anymore.

Anakin uses the style that hard counters Dookus

No one seems to have mentioned you are comparing Dooku catching Kenobi off guard with the force vs Anakin/Kenobi actually having a force push battke at the same time.

Anakin by far

@lord_tenebrous:

In TPM script it states when Maul Force pushed Kenobi it was when he was caught off guard, caught off-guard despite being in a combat-ready stance and facing Maul. If Force-users had perpetual involuntary Force barriers there would be no such thing as being "caught off-guard" by a Force attack. Since TCW follows the movie rules very closely I'm guessing all the time's Maul gripped Kenobi in combat, as well as Dooku in RotS was instances when he simply didn't see the attack coming. Also my Sidious example: Maul Force gripped Sidious in the same way he timed Kenobi when the latter was in the middle of an attacking sequence and not in the best position to defend himself. Sure you can question the canon of the material but it still gives us important insight on the creator's feelings toward Force defenses, as I'm sure even then they weren't envisioning Maul as superior to Sidious as a Force user.

"Anakin didn't brace himself for Ventress' push. He braced himself well after he had already been hit -- in fact, after the clones behind him were hit. Here's what he looked like when he was hit:"

The difference remains he saw the attack coming and was able to steady himself, unlike the first push which he didn't see coming.

"Fast is, Ventress just wasn't able to hurl him by the end of the fight. Maybe spreading the wave out to hit the clones weakened the blast. Maybe hurling Anakin earlier cost too much of her reserves. Who knows. But she was capable of hurling Anakin prior, and he wasn't caught off guard. Anakin was facing her in a combat ready stance, and Ventress lifted her hand up for obvious reasons before actually pushing forward:"

No he was not in a 'combat-ready stance' he was bum rushing Ventress who over-lept his attack and caught him with a sharp surprise counter Force push as he just turned around and played out his momentum. Difference between a guard position anticipating an attack and an attacking position where you are susceptible to counters particularly when you've just expended a lot of energy failing to rush someone. Just because a fighter is engaged in active combat does not mean he can't get caught with something he wasn't prepared for. Just ask any boxer.

@lord_tenebrous: If the movies are immovable canon, Then Like the member above said, Anakin is in fact more powerful than Dooku. in the Movie Sidious said Anakin is far more powerful then Dooku.

this was before KF Vader, what was said can't be ignored buddy. Now you are dismissing your own movie statements. Since Dooku can give Yoda struggle that means Anakin can also do the same due to be more powerful than Dooku.

@kilius:

"In TPM script it states when Maul Force pushed Kenobi it was when he was caught off guard,"

The script doesn't mention Maul using the Force on Kenobi though:

"DARTH MAUL seems to have the upper hand as OBI-WAN grows weary. DARTH MAUL catches OBI-WAN off guard, and the JEDI slips into a melting pit." 

-- The Phantom Menace: Official Script 

So it's not really applicable.

"caught off-guard despite being in a combat ready stance and facing Maul." 

That's also questionable, he was just recovering from being shoved back.

"If Force users had perpetual involuntary Force barriers there would be no such thing as being 'caught off-guard' by a Force attack."

Not if a passive barrier is an ability that needs to be activated before a fight, as the Bane trilogy articulates. They could simply have forgotten to do so.

"Since TCW follows the movie rules very closely I'm guessing all the times Maul gripped Kenobi in combat, as well as Dooku in RotS were instances when he simply didn't see the attack coming"

Ragdolling someone with the Force is always used as a dominance showing, notable examples being Sidious and Dooku, Sidious and Maul, Yoda and Ventress, Dooku and Ventress, Anakin and Ventress, etc. 

"Also my Sidious example: Maul Force gripped Sidious in the same way he timed Kenobi when the later was in the middle of an attacking sequence and not in the best position to defnse himself. Sure you can question the canoncy of the material but it still gives use important insight on the creators feelings toward Force defenses, as I'm sure even then they weren't envisioning Maul as superior to Sidious as a Force user." 

There was probably just some group of rogue animators who were partial to Maul, and they created the scene, tried to sneak it past but failed. Maul and Savage were outright overpowering Sidious' lightning, and when Maul singlehandedly ragdolled Sidious, even if passive barriers don't exist, if Sidious was much stronger he would have broken free. 

The intent of the finalized duel was to show that Sidious is far more powerful than the duo, and what indicated that was kept in.

@mygod000:

"If the movies are immovable canon, Then Like the member above said, Anakin is in fact more powerful than Dooku."

No, because subjective, in-verse fallible statements do not qualify as conclusive evidence.

"in the Movie Sidious said Anakin is far more powerful then Dooku." 

He didn't say he was "far more powerful than Dooku," he just said he was more powerful. He only said he was far younger. 

"this was before KF Vader, what was said can't be ignored buddy." 

Sidious was talking about KF Vader, not Anakin. That's why he says "soon I will have a new apprentice." 

"Since Dooku can give Yoda struggle that means Anakin can also do the same due to be more powerful than Dooku." 

No, because Obi-Wan was making ROTS Vader struggle.

@lord_tenebrous:

Let's recap. So far, reasons provided for passive Force barriers not existing:

• Feats that would otherwise be difficult to explain, like Ezra and Kanan Force pushing Vader.
• The TPM script saying that Obi-Wan fell into the pit because Maul caught him off guard.
• The Prequel Trilogy RotS novelization explaining that Dooku's attack was too sudden for Obi-Wan to counter.
• The deleted scene showing Maul gripping Sidious with the Force. Meaning that the creators of TCW thought such a thing was possible when they made every episode before that one, at the very least.
• Dooku and Maul engaging in prolonged duels with Obi-Wan instead of immediately dominating him with the Force.

Reasons provided for passive Force barriers existing: still waiting.

So far ive seen Savage > Vader and Dooku has better feats than Sidious from the same person on SWs debates on here.... what.

@dalootajr:

"Bro what he was pressed by both of them"

Lol no, Dooku was dancing around Savage, barely paying attention to him while repeatedly dismissing Ventress in moments. They weren't even able to tough him when he was unarmed.

"how was it to a greater degree than Palpatine's domination of the brothers?!" 

Because while both were toying with their opponents, Palpatine's opponents did better. Savage headbutted Sidious, which is a fatal strike, unlike Dooku dropping his blade due to being slammed into a wall. 

"Dooku didn't stalemate him he escaped"

Neither opponent made any progress against the other in the fight, and it ended as a stalemate. 

"and Palpatine matched Yoda and arguably defeated him" 

Palpatine never matched Yoda anywhere. Yoda outdueled him and overpowered.

"but I don't think that's canon anymore." 

The novels were non-canon before, then Matt Martin said they were canon. But he recently said they weren't canon, so go figure.

Anakin killing Dooku proves my point. Skill difference would have nullify what ever style Anakin was using since Dooku was training specifically to take down other Force users.

Anakin is just more powerful.

He is. Dooku was undoubtedly more skilled than Anakin with the force, but it was Anakins sheer power that allowed him to keep on the offensive and wear the count down to the point he could disarm him.

Yeah, no reason to think otherwise