Vader Discussion (not really)

I take some flack on CV for lowballing Vader, and to a certain point that’s true. However, I feel like this site wanks him way too much given that he loses most of his fights.

I will say this:

Vader is a little brat who gave up on what he wanted the moment he lost it. Sidious told him that Padme was dead, and he couldn’t bring her back. Vader’s response was, “awesome, I’m still an evil guy who will do your biding for the next three decades.”

If Vader was as powerful as he thought he was, he would have snapped Sidious’s neck the moment he told him that Padme was dead and couldn’t be revived.

BUT he didn’t. Vader was punked by Obi Wan twice, punked by Sidious in the comics, punked by Ochi of Bastoon, punked by Kirak Infil'a, and punked by a fledgling Jedi Luke.

Vader is awesome, though. A Jedi killer! Let’s go down the list of who Vader beat:

Ahsoka, who gave herself up.

Old Ben, who gave himself up.

Kanan and Ezra, untrained Jedi.

Luke, who wasn’t trained.

And he did eventually beat those Jedi in the comics, and Ochi.

Oh, he did throw Sidious off a ledge, which apparently is the same as beating him in a lightsabers or in the force. It’s not.

Vader is great at beating up untrained fodder, but when it comes to formidable opponents, he is operating at a loss.

I know so many people will hate this, but the stronger the hate, the more you know this is true.

If you don't like the guy just say it lmao.

@wordsbeyondfic0: I like Vader, but CV makes me hate him. The wank is ridiculous. The lack of objectivity is horrendous.

Did you not read those Vader comics? Because he tried several times to revive Padme and bring her back from the dead. He definitely didn't give up, that was the entire point of the "Castle Vader" arc and Vader Immortal. Also, when did Ochi humiliate him? When Vader wasn't allowed to use his Force powers and had to rely solely on his robotics? Even then he managed to outwit him and brinng him under his thumb. Kirak beat a Vader fresh off the operating table, inexperienced with how his armor functions and basically falling apart at the seams due to the gauntlet Kirak had thrown at him beforehand. He won because Vader's suit gave out due to context outside of their fight, not because he damaged Vader in their duel.

I get that people can wank him at times, but this is just taking it in the opposite direction and won't solve anything.

"Couldn't snap the neck of the most powerful force user in the mythos while on death bed" best reason to assume someone is weak.

If you love someone so much that you’re willing to betray everything you’ve ever believed in for them, even when they are like, “hey, don’t do that,” you would attempt to destroy whomever deceived you in regards to them, not serve them and do their bidding for three decades.

I know there is that one scene from the comics where an angry Vader pushes Sidious back, but Sidious puts Vader in his place in the next panel.

@lightordark:

You tried to argue that TPM Kenobi could take Vader in canon, even though suit Vader contended with a far more powerful Kenobi in the finale ep.

That’s a misrepresentation of what I said. I said, “Kenobi found a way to beat Maul when he had no business beating Maul. Maybe, just maybe he finds a way to beat Vader. It’s doubtful, but maybe.”

I backed off from my statement as I said it, hyping Kenobi, not lowballing Vader. Kenobi beat Mustafar Anakin, Maul, and Maul and Savage in a 2v1. He’s resourceful and a survivor.

I know those are different versions of Kenobi, but that doesn’t take away from the point I was making.

CV Vader wank has him ragdolling other Sith Lords and Jedi Masters, though no evidence exists for that to happen. Everyone except low (or untrained) Jedi and Inquisitors give him a good fight.

@lightordark: how was Yaddle’s death changed? I don’t recall her getting a confirmed canon death before Tales of the Jedi. Regardless, I do agree that comic canon is ignored way too often, which seriously sucks because it has some of the best content in modern Star Wars.

Pretty sure Vader wasn’t using his abilities until his arrival on Exegol, when Ochi specifically points it out and says the Emperor will kill him for it. I don’t see his feats during that time as on par with his usual standards or depiction. Struggling and having to hide from/stealth-kill those bounty hunter droids rather than facing them head-on is not how Vader operates. Plus if he was he would’ve just stolen his lightsaber back with the Force.

I don’t see Kirak leaving him to die as plot armor. He literally tossed him off a massive cliff and assumed that would kill him. Windu died from a similar thing, so the idea that Kirak would think that’d kill him is not without merit.

@frozen: @reaperace: @a_fine_edition: This is the crap I’m talking about. Six pages and 241 responses on a ridiculous thread.

I will agree Vader before the suit was a whiny brat.

@lightordark: Warning for language. and that's legends Vader.

@reaperace: Our of curiosity, what language did I use?

@lightordark said:

@frozen: @reaperace: @a_fine_edition: This is the crap I’m talking about. Six pages and 241 responses on a ridiculous thread.

It was a mild warning, just to things to not get out of hand don't worry.

Btw out of curiosity, how can Sups defend against Vader's TP?

FYI, the reason I don't engage with your points is that I despise SW Disney Canon.

And I advice you to read some EU Vader material to find out how incredibly complex, deep, and powerful character he is.

@lightordark: he used the Force on the Summa Verminoth when arriving on Exegol. That was when Ochi called him out on it and said he would be in trouble with Sidious.

We MIGHT see that Windu survived, but for all intents and purposes he is dead.

I’m not trying to derail my thread, but you’re assuming Vader can TP Supes mid fight. Supes is fast and could blitz while Vader attempts to TP. Even New 52 Supes is too much for any SW character. Vader is still machine and man.

@lightordark: I honestly see it as making more sense. There were like 10,000 Jedi. There’s no way the Clones managed to get them all.

@a_fine_edition: That part makes sense, yes, but top tier Jedi being alive during the transition of power creates a huge problem.

Inquisitors couldn’t take out ROTS level Kenobi, much less Mace, Yoda, Ahsoka, and Kenobi. Together, the four would have been too much for Sidious and Vader, especially in the early days of the Empire where the clones were being phased out.

Put ROTS Yoda, Mace, Ahsoka, and Kenobi with the Bad Batch, and the Empire lasts 30-minutes, not 30-years.

Here is Vader slamming the emperor against the wall right after getting his suit (hearing of padmes death) after this he lets the emperor go (I forget what happens and why he lets him go) and then tanks prolongued exposure to his sith lightning

and Ig were gonna forget the dozens of Jedi Vader slaughtered thats fine

@lightordark: the issue is that they're all disconnected and can't communicate well. Mace is MIA, and Ahsoka kind of is as well. Yoda and Obi tried to coordinate, and it didn't really work the way they'd hoped. Sidious is too powerful for Yoda to beat by this point, and now he's definitely upping security after the attempts on his life. The Bad Batch are also completely cut off from what everyone else is doing, and I really don't think they'd serve as anything more than a distraction.

@lightordark: lmao if you think supes beats Prime Vader with legends speed feats

@mr-yes: Palps puts him in his place and tells him that if he ever touches him with the force again, he will kill him. I mentioned that in a response on this thread.

Also, my thread isn’t about Superman vs Vader.

@a_fine_edition:

I don’t see Sidious being too much for Yoda, The entire Sidious, Yoda fight in ROTS shows that Yoda has the upper hand. Sidious tried to run, he is disarmed and has to flee to the high ground, and his lightning wasn’t breaking Yoda’s defense. Context defeated Yoda, not Sidious. Ten years isn’t closing the gap.

The rest of your points are valid l, though can be overcome. The Alliance was able to communicate and come together over time. I assume top tier Jedi could, too. Yoda was able to watch over Luke from Dagobah.

Yes, he would have upped his security, but that what the BB is for.

@lightordark: you brought up the Vader Vs supes thread, so yea

@lightordark: and even kanan “an untrained Jedi” can move entire meteors at hypersonic speeds and hold up mountains.

I hate planetary Star Wars as much as anyone else but some of them really are. There are actually many nigh omnipotents in Star Wars so it’s not actually that weak of a verse (I don’t think they’re canon yet tho). But anyway Vader has survived the concentrated energy of a kyber crystal equivalent (or at least close) to that of the Death Star. It may or may not be planetary but just wanted to put that out there

@lightordark: That's just the issue though. Time. The Alliance as we're seeing in Andor was a mess of different factions all failing to come together for years. They needed to operate in heavy amounts of frequency and constantly be weighing the decisions to include more people in the conspiracy. The Jedi likewise would need serious amounts of coordination and effort to come together and storm into Palpatine's office or private quarters to kill him. There's also the implication that he just kept getting stronger and stronger as the years went on. His fight with Yoda is already highly contentious, and the two seem more or less to be equals with maybe a slight edge to Yoda.

Vader loses a lot less than people think he does during star wars, unless you would rather have kill every needed character. But we really only see him lose to Luke and Kenobi.

Yes, because it’s ridiculous that Vader could even hurt Superman. Vader may had durability, but he can’t hurt Supes in any way. Superman could pull Vader apart, though.

@lightordark: I’m sure Vader could do something. Including legends feats, this guy is around (though he is lower than) palpatine, who created planet destroying force storms and mindrapes trillions at a time

Think of how the presence of a Jedi like Yoda, Kenobi, or Mace might unify the Alliance way faster.

I know it’s implied that Sidious gets stronger over time, if he doest, Yoda would too, right? I don’t see why Yoda would become weaker with the force, until he gets sick in ROTJ.

Yes, the coordination would be challenging, but not anymore unlikely than 30 ships blowing up the Death Star or a bunch of Ewoks beating an entire legion of the best storm troopers.

They are talking about Sidious, not the Father.

@rukelnikovftw: I was not counting entities my friend .

Plz don't tell me the SI trolls are making vader sub tpm Kenobi in every continuity

Another day, another atrocious take, courtesy of Comic Vine.

@allofthejsisnd said:

@frozen said:

@lightordark:

You tried to argue that TPM Kenobi could take Vader in canon, even though suit Vader contended with a far more powerful Kenobi in the finale ep.

Plz don't tell me the SI trolls are making vader sub tpm Kenobi in every continuity

Yeah, read down on the thread a little. Frozen misrepresented my comment completely. I posted it, and frozen hasn’t responded.

Yeah, what a horrible take, right? Facts versus the Vader wank presented on this site regularly. Sorry to break the mold.

Vader struggles against Eeth Koth and Ahsoka, loses to Obi-Wan twice, and got beat by a Luke who wasn't even an official Jedi yet (according to Yoda) and yet somehow he is above Mace, Yoda and Sidious to the point that he "stomps them" according to a lot of his fanboys here because muh "statements". Vader never defeated anyone from the highest tiers, so statements which say "he is more powerful than Yoda...etc", "the most powerful force user..." are going into toilet. Statements which aren't backed up by a feats are meaningless and just an author's bias.

Gotta love all of Vader's fanboys on CV. When he loses any fight "He was conflicted!!!". "Thats not a prime Vader!!!"

@sav0: I think it's moreso people look at his Force feats, which are more on display and powerful, rather than his lightsaber fights which he doesn't have many.

Thank the maker, I am not alone! Sometimes this site makes me feel like I’m crazy, but it seems others have a level head when assessing Vader.

I think another issue is, at least from what I've seen. Even taking into account just scaling, there isn't....much that can be done, because even if you scale Vader. What exactly is being scaled? The Inquisitors in Disney Canon are just....complete trash compared to EU Canon, with the only real exception being the GI if you really stretch that. If the majority of the Inquisitors are trash, that doesn't help Vader in any way shape or form.

Vader is overrated, yes.

babe wake up new Vader slander dropped