TSB does not destroy souls

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NinjaRizer

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I’m debunking a misconception about the properties of TSB, specifically the claim it erases souls. Now, firstly I’ll say that no one knows if it truly erases souls, my argument is that it’s incredibly irrational to claim as such due to limiting, unsubstantiated, honestly terrible evidence and anti-feats.

Secondly, let me state my premise. There is a perfectly canonical explanation with great evidence from statements AND feats that explains what TSB does perfectly; which is nullifying Ninjutsu. It explains it so well that it’s almost baffling how one would resort to a headcanon explanation that it erases souls, and I’ll demonstrate this below.

From my knowledge, there is a SINGLE panel in Naruto that people use to claim that TSB erases souls. It is the panel of Minato lacking his arms when returning to the Pure Lands:

No Caption Provided

Soul destroying properties are never mentioned in the entire series for TSB.

From this singular scan several claims are made; TSB either erased his arms and in turn his soul, or sent his arms back early to the afterlife. Obvious nonsense.

Let’s look at how Minato’s arms were erased. Key point: They weren’t. Obito never erased his arm, rather detached it with the TSB, and Madara did the same thing when he reacted to Minato’s Flying Thunder God:

Nothing was erased, they were simply detached. Now, the claim that TSB can attack souls on contact can still be claimed, but further evidence puts this to bed.

Here’s Sakura being stabbed by a TSB rod, and not having her soul destroyed, erased or damaged. It wasn’t a chakra rod, as I will also show in scans below:

Now, before you try and obfuscate, attempting to explain this away, ask yourself this. Why? There is literally a SINGLE scan that supports the evidence of TSB destroying souls, and there is also a SINGLE anti-feat showing that it doesn’t, clear cut. The theory that it destroys souls has such little evidence behind it, one could argue that it’s not worth defending in the first place.

Now I’m going to try and explain why Minato’s arms weren’t there when he rose to the pure lands, using statements from actual characters in the Naruto Manga. You try and find a single anti-feat that disputes this theory.

Tobirama states to Minato that because Obito is using TSB that nullifies all jutsu, they are effectively mortal:

Nothing about soul destruction.

Because Minato’s arms were cut off, the TSB nullified the Edo Tensei jutsu (their bodies are the jutsu) and in turn Minato couldn’t regenerate. This supports what Tobirama says directly.

We all know Sage Chakra nullifies the effects of TSB. Yet Minato, in SAGE MODE, had his arm struck off by Madara, and his arms still didn’t regenerate. Why? The Edo Tensei jutsu was nullified, therefore he still couldn’t regenerate:

His arms weren’t there when he returned to the pure lands because his soul was still in his detached arms. His soul rose up from his arms when his body did, similar to how Obito's energy rose from his remains after being killed by Kaguya.

Ask yourself this; what contradicts this theory? Is it reasonable? Is it supported by the canon? To justify it, does it take more headcanon interpretation?

Let me repeat my point: Why pedal a vastly unsubstantiated theory when there’s a perfectly reasonable explanation that doesn’t require head-canon obfuscation?

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Aryan87

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#2 Aryan87  Online

Here’s Sakura being stabbed by a TSB rod, and not having her soul destroyed, erased or damaged. It wasn’t a chakra rod, as I will also show in scans below

TSB work in an inconsistant manner

The properties of a TSB changes upon what user wants it do seemingly

No Caption Provided

Truth Seeking Orbs have most if not all basic chakra natures within them, and through various combinations, it can achieve Kekkei Genkai, Kekkei Tota or beyond.

No Caption Provided

However, when one TSB has one chakra nature active, it will deactivate other chakra natures. For example, when Obito used one TSB for explosion, Tobirama can touch it without turning into dust.

This is because when the TSB is set for Explosion Release, it loses the attributes of Particle Release.

No Caption Provided

Another example is when Minato was in direct contact with Madara's TSB to teleport them away, there wasn't even holes on his cloak.

No Caption Provided

However, it was only until Obito became stable was he able to utilise Yin-Yang Release, the ultimate chakra nature that can nullify all other chakra natures.

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However, because it is part of Senjutsu, it cannot nullify Senjutsu regardless of its chakra nature.

This is a recurring rule in Naruto that the same type of Jutsu cannot be used against each other.

Also Tobirama specifically says the word " erase "

No Caption Provided

So now that this is out of the way

I would debunk the idea of TSB not working on souls

First of all ,

TSB does count as EE

Expansive Truthseeker Orb (Þå¿Õ╝Áµ▒éÚüôþÄë, Bōchō Gudōdama)It is listed as a Kekkei Mōra, Ninjutsu. It says that she used the Divine Tree to absorb Chakra from all of the Shinobi and create a maximized (µÑÁÕñºÕîû) Truthseeker Orb. The equivalent (ÕÉîÒüÿþë®ÒüáÒüî, same/identical/similar) black orbs that appear behind Naruto's back when using Six Paths Sage Mode can't be compared to its dimensions. Comprised of all five elements and yin-yang, it had the power to obliterate the world and return it to nothing. Ôåæ Caption: Comprised of all Chakra natures, a vast, expanding mass is filled to the brim.Created to reshape the world, it was a huge mass of chaos.

~ Naruto Databook - Expensive Truthseeker Orb​

The Naruto orbs are equivalent to Kaguya's eternal truth seeker orb except dimensions ( length , width e.t.c. )

No Caption Provided

The power to return space-time to nothing is superior to the power to destroy souls

Naruto attacks indeed do impact souls

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As we can see, TSB is of light and shadow chakra

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When TSB is nullifying and erasing chakra , it's actually erasing spiritual energy

Because it's made up of both physical and spiritual energy by default as that's what chakra is at the first place

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Number3561

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Mostly agree about the Minato example. The explanation given for his lack of regen definitely seemed attributed to the TSOs ability to null ninjutsu. The Sakura moment definitely feels like PIS though, considering even the lowest interpretation of TSOs would put it on par with Jinton, which Sakura shouldn't be able to tank.

I think the stronger argument for TSOs having soul destructive properties is the fact that TSOs are shown to erase chakra, which is what souls seem to be composed of in the Naruto verse.

For example, Kurama is a Bijuu who's entirely composed of chakra, yet he was sealed by the RDS which works on people's souls. Orochimaru also lost the ability to wield chakra in his hands when his soul arms were sealed. Itachi's Susanoo, which is pure chakra, is able to wield intangible spirit weapons without physical form.

Hagoromo said he was a soul who wandered the world as chakra when he met Naruto. Mei said Madara's ascending soul was his chakra.

Ashura's soul reincarnated into Naruto, and Hagoromo said Ashura's chakra was now clinging to him.

Obito said chakra was the energy that connects the afterlife with the living world. Then his spirit possesses Kakashi, briefly giving Kakashi his Six Paths chakra and ocular powers.

There are other examples too, but chakra is pretty much synonymous with the soul in Naruto, and we know for a fact that TSOs can erase chakra.

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Olorun

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AreneaCaulem

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Damn.

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NinjaRizer

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NinjaRizer

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@number3561:

I've read everything, but you've escaped the original premise. I knew you guys would try and explain it away but why? It's NEVER mentioned anywhere, and this opinion has to be extrapolated with vague statements like:

Also Tobirama specifically says the word " erase "

When TSB is nullifying and erasing chakra , it's actually erasing spiritual energy

Now, most of what you said can just be explained by TSB nullifying Jutsu, as I've explained in the OP, I'm asking by you have to opt for this headcanon-albeit impressive interpretation I'll give you that:

TSB work in an inconsistant manner

The properties of a TSB changes upon what user wants it do seemingly

Futhermore,

However, because it is part of Senjutsu, it cannot nullify Senjutsu regardless of its chakra nature.

This is a recurring rule in Naruto that the same type of Jutsu cannot be used against each other.

Minato had Sage Chakra. His arm was still destroyed by Madara according to you lot right? Why?

Naruto's back when using Six Paths Sage Mode can't be compared to its dimensions. Comprised of all five elements and yin-yang, it had the power to obliterate the world and return it to nothing. Ôåæ Caption: Comprised of all Chakra natures, a vast, expanding mass is filled to the brim.Created to reshape the world, it was a huge mass of chaos.

~ Naruto Databook - Expensive Truthseeker Orb​

The Naruto orbs are equivalent to Kaguya's eternal truth seeker orb except dimensions ( length , width e.t.c. )

No Caption Provided

The power to return space-time to nothing is superior to the power to destroy souls

Just because it can destroy that spacetime (always vaguely used in Naruto, even Obito's tiny dimension is a spacetime and this could easily refer to just destroying the planet rather than the entire dimension) DOESN'T mean it can destroy souls. This is a reach on your part. Also does Yamamoto have existence erasure too? Literally an identical statement for him too.

It also says it was created to 'reshape the world'. Why have you willfully ignored this?

Here's my point. If you say TSB can destroy souls there will always be a strong argument against it. This is because the evidence thereof is vague and lacking,the showings in the manga are singular, and there are anti-feats that require a headcanon theory to be explained away.

If you said it just nullifies Ninjutsu there's NO ARGUMENT against it. Because it's supported so well. This is why you can't address the theory toward the end of the OT, as it just explains everything you've said but better. Doesn't need headcanon interpretation, semantics, playing with words. Just needs scans and evidence.

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Number3561

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#8  Edited By Number3561

@ninjarizer:

I've read everything, but you've escaped the original premise. I knew you guys would try and explain it away but why? It's NEVER mentioned anywhere, and this opinion has to be extrapolated with vague statements like:

Think you might've tagged the wrong person, but the original argument was that TSBs don't destroy souls right? I agreed on the Minato example, explained why I thought the Sakura example was PIS, and argued how TSBs are likely still soul destructive based on another property they possess.

There's nothing vague about the concept of TSBs erasing chakra. This is stated and shown throughout their usage. The question is how chakra and souls relate, and I showed how they've consistently been treated synonymously.

As for existence erasure, there are arguments for TSBs. Like incomplete versions already being superior to molecular deconstruction, their utilization of Yin-Yang release (the basis for reality-warping like Izanagi), and multiple statements that TSBs "erase" / "make disappear" / or "turn to nothing" the things they touch.

You brought up whether Yamamoto would have existence erasure by this logic, but from what I remember his Bankai had a single statement saying it blows things away without a trace, not that it erases. His blade also doesn't work in some esoteric, unknown way like TSBs do. It's simply the heat of the Sun's core (15m degrees). Since matter isn't erased in the Sun's core, I wouldn't expect Yama's blade to be any different considering that's its literal power. He likely has atomic/nuclear deconstruction the same as the Sun.

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asgardianweapon

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@ninjarizer:

Now, firstly I’ll say that no one knows if it truly erases souls, my argument is that it’sincredibly irrationalto claim as such due tolimiting, unsubstantiated, honestly terrible evidence and anti-feats.

I can respect that. This is the true way yo debate and a good mentality overall

good post

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Undre

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@aryan87: the original raw Japanese does not say space-time that's a mistranslation. ETSO was going to erase a planet which is why the databook says the world will be destroyed. Add to the fact tso was neged by guy bending space.

Souls in naruto are not ninjustu so that can't erased. Naruto characters die from ninjustu yet their souls are unharmed by the attacks they were killed with. Which means chakra does not affect souls or it's very inconsistent. Infact it's to be mind and physical energies not spirit and physical.

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Aryan87

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#11 Aryan87  Online

@undre:

: the original raw Japanese does not say space-time that's a mistranslation. ETSO was going to erase a planet which is why the databook says the world will be destroyed.

Can you bring the original raw ? And how does returning matter to nothingness aka void manipulation on matter even work

Add to the fact tso was neged by guy bending space.

Guy bending TSO is what Madara reffered to as bending as space , anyway , that was Hyberbolic

Souls in naruto are not ninjustu so that can't erased. Naruto characters die from ninjustu yet their souls are unharmed by the attacks they were killed with. Which means chakra does not affect souls or it's very inconsistent.

Chakra CAN effect souls as it's spiritual energy too , but it doesn't when the body is being targetted , not soul , we never saw someone die and his soul come out of his body , they instantly go to the pure lands .

Infact it's to be mind and physical energies not spirit and physical.

Chakra does consist spiritual energy , Sakura blatantly said as much .

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NinjaRizer

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@number3561:

Think you might've tagged the wrong person, but the original argument was that TSBs don't destroy souls right? I agreed on the Minato example, explained why I thought the Sakura example was PIS, and argued how TSBs are likely still soul destructive based on another property they possess.

Fair enough, my bad.

There's nothing vague about the concept of TSBs erasing chakra. This is stated and shown throughout their usage. The question is how chakra and souls relate, and I showed how they've consistently been treated synonymously.

It seems to me like a bit of mental gymnastics and semantics to justify this though. Chakra and souls are related, but I wouldn't say they are synonymous. There are a few examples of them being vaguely related (Obito, Haguromo etc) however there are also opposing arguments. Can your soul be replenished like chakra can? Do you use your soul to create attacks? Before human beings had chakra (before the Divine Tree) did they have souls? Bijuu are pure chakra, are they souls? Saying they're synonymous I think is a bit farfetched. It is some form of spiritual energy, and humans have become reliant on it, but I think it's something separate, yet related in some undefined way.

As for existence erasure, therearearguments for TSBs. Like incomplete versions already being superior to molecular deconstruction, their utilization of Yin-Yang release (the basis for reality-warping like Izanagi), and multiple statements that TSBs "erase" / "make disappear" / or "turn to nothing" the things they touch.

You brought up whether Yamamoto would have existence erasure by this logic, but from what I remember his Bankai had a single statement saying it blows things away without a trace, not that it erases. His blade also doesn't work in some esoteric, unknown way like TSBs do. It's simply the heat of the Sun's core (15m degrees). Since matter isn't erased in the Sun's core, I wouldn't expect Yama's blade to be any different considering that's its literal power. He likely has atomic/nuclear deconstruction the same as the Sun.

The existence erasure of the physical body by TSB is plausible, it was surmised by the 3rd Hokage that it operates similarly to Jinton. The reason I bring up Yamamoto is for this same reason. I'd argue that he has existence erasure too, but it takes a specific interpretation. For example, Yamamoto says his Bankai doesn't 'burn or erupt', the obvious implication being the damage component of the blade has surpassed heat (if it was just a strong heat it would burn). He doesn't mention a heat component for the blade, like he does for Zanka no Tachi West. Instead, it states it blows away, without a trace, suggesting existence erasure. He also says that Blut Vene can't stand against the technique, suggesting some sort of durability negation.

No Caption Provided

Since matter isn't erased in the Sun's core, I wouldn't expect Yama's blade to be any different considering that's its literal power. He likely has atomic/nuclear deconstruction the same as the Sun.

Since you said this and I've proven there's no traces left, you surely must agree in the face of the evidence I've presented that there's at least some argument to be made for Zanka no Tachi being existence erasure.

Now, the same arguments could be made for TSB, but then it carries the same opposition. What if it's just really potent that it mimics existence erasure? We've seen TSB get stuck in walls and such, is it a consistent property? Jinton would look like existence erasure if it wasn't specified as molecular destruction.

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Number3561

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#13  Edited By Number3561

@ninjarizer:

It seems to me like a bit of mental gymnastics and semantics to justify this though. Chakra and souls are related, but I wouldn't say they are synonymous.

Does it? When we have Madara and Hagoromo's souls directly being referred to as chakra, or Hagoromo's soul being able to grant chakra, or Obito's chakra/soul transversing worlds to possess Kakashi, or Obito's chakra leaving when his soul leaves Kakashi, or Orochimaru's loss of chakra in his hands being tied to the loss of soul in his arms, or the RDS working equally on chakra and souls, or a chakra avatar wielding intangible spirit weapons, or Ashura's soul reincarnation being described as Ashura's chakra clinging to a new host. A couple more examples for you:

Tayuya's intangible demon spirits take a bite out of Shikamaru's chakra and we see the soul of his arm lose a chunk. Nagato's Gedo Statue dragon is clearly shown stealing the souls of all those Rain ninja. The souls are ripped from their bodies, yet the technique is described as causing the enemy's chakra to be ripped out.

It's not mental gymnastics. It's a concrete pattern of soul and chakra being interchangeable; I don't know how you can explain all this evidence otherwise.

however there are also opposing arguments. Can your soul be replenished like chakra can? Do you use your soul to create attacks? Before human beings had chakra (before the Divine Tree) did they have souls? Bijuu are pure chakra, are they souls?

Yes the soul becomes replenished by chakra because chakra is the energy of the soul. Remember that Orochimaru wanted Tsunade to heal the soul of his arms, and this was treated as a legit threat to Konoha. Healing ninjutsu is described as applying chakra directly to the target.

Yes, you use the energy of your soul to create attacks; so it makes sense that no chakra = death. It's unclear how souls functioned prior to Hagoromo because we've yet to see the world in that era.

Yes, Bijuu are souls. They're referred to as spirits or demons throughout the story. They can't be permanently destroyed as their chakra reforms and causes them to reincarnate when killed.

No Caption Provided

None of the questions your raised are actual counter-arguments though. They're just logical conclusions that follow from the overwhelming evidence that chakra = soul.

The existence erasure of the physical body by TSB is plausible, it was surmised by the 3rd Hokage that it operates similarly to Jinton.

Small correction, Hiruzen compared incomplete TSBs to Jinton. The TSBs he fought only used 4-5 chakra natures, not all 7. Since Edo Hiruzen was obviously able to regenerate.

TSB (7 natures) >> incomplete TSB (4-5 natures) >> Jinton (3 natures) = molecular deconstruction

For example, Yamamoto says his Bankai doesn't 'burn or erupt', the obvious implication being the damage component of the blade has surpassed heat(if it was just a strong heat it would burn).He doesn't mention a heat component for the blade, like he does for Zanka no Tachi West.

When Yama says it doesn't burn or erupt, he's likely referring to the fact that it doesn't emit flames not that it doesn't use heat. He was explaining how his Bankai has changed from how it was in the past. And he actually does mention the heat component of his blade, which is the main reason why I'm suspicious of him having erasure. Yama not only verbatim states that his blade works by concentrating heat, he also mentions that his body and blade both reach 15m degrees. See below:

I agree that this extreme level of heat more or less amounts to durability negation (unless you have Sun-bathing feats like Superman or Thor), but it's still ultimately heat and not actual EE.

Since you said this and I've proven there's no traces left, you surely must agree in the face of the evidence I've presented that there's at least some argument to be made for Zanka no Tachi being existence erasure.

I agree there's an argument, and I mentioned the "no trace" thing in my initial reply. But the fact that we know Yama's blade does damage via 15m degree heat and not some magical method makes me doubt it based on a single comment of leaving "no trace" (which is very open to interpretation as to what constitutes a "trace"). If science finds out that matter is erased in the core of the Sun, then I'd be fully on board with EE for Yama.

Now, the same arguments could be made for TSB, but then it carries the same opposition. What if it's just really potent that it mimics existence erasure? We've seen TSB get stuck in walls and such, is it a consistent property? Jinton would look like existence erasure if it wasn't specified as molecular destruction.

I understand, but here's the difference. Yama has a single statement that doesn't directly imply erasure necessarily, and is complicated by the fact that we know he uses Sun-level heat, which does NOT physically erase.

TSBs have multiple statements that say they "erase" / "make disappear" / or "turn to nothing" the things they touch in some unknown mechanism. None of those kinds of statements have been used for Jinton, which works in a defined way by negating bonds between molecules. And we already know incomplete TSBs are superior to Jinton, and that complete TSBs utilize Yin-Yang release (the basis for reality-warping like the Izanagi). There seems to be much more evidence for TSBs working as erasure compared to Jinton or Zanka no Tachi.

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ragegod

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Did you enjoy wasting your time pointing out the obvious? The shit doesn't even live up to it's molecular destruction hype. Trash ability.

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Undre

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@aryan87: chakra doesn't affect souls. Doesn't matter if it has spirit energy. When someone gets all their chakra taken their souls are unfazed. If chakra was truly spirit energy their souls world be taken as well.

Why would a villain im naruto only target someones body and not attack the soul? Were is it stated they can control what part is being attacked?

Chakra has literally no feats of affecting souls what so ever despite being made of spirit energy

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Aryan87

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#16 Aryan87  Online

@undre:

chakra doesn't affect souls. Doesn't matter if it has spirit energy. When someone gets all their chakra taken their souls are unfazed. If chakra was truly spirit energy their souls world be taken as well.

Good point , but that could also mean there is a different reserve of Spirit energy , chakra is also physical energy , but when someone's chakra is gone , they can still walk and talk despite not having ounces of physical energy .

We have to see that there was once a time in the world where chakra did not exist and the only difference was that the humans were not Shinobis bur rather normal , like us , so you could argue chakra is a different set of energy then what is normally present in human

Why would a villain im naruto only target someones body and not attack the soul? Were is it stated they can control what part is being attacked?

Because thats the only thing they can attack ? Souls in Naruto only come by specific jutsus being performed , only the body can normally be attacked .

Chakra has literally no feats of affecting souls what so ever despite being made of spirit energy

TSB on screen cut off the arms of Minato's soul

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NinjaRizer

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@aryan87: Refer to the OT about Minato’s arms.

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NinjaRizer

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@number3561:

Does it? When we have Madara and Hagoromo's souls directly being referred to as chakra, or Hagoromo's soul being able to grant chakra, or Obito's chakra/soul transversing worlds to possess Kakashi, or Obito's chakra leaving when his soul leaves Kakashi, or Orochimaru's loss of chakra in his hands being tied to the loss of soul in his arms, or the RDS working equally on chakra and souls, or a chakra avatar wielding intangible spirit weapons, or Ashura's soul reincarnation being described as Ashura's chakra clinging to a new host. A couple more examples for you:

Tayuya's intangible demon spirits take a bite out of Shikamaru's chakra and we see the soul of his arm lose a chunk. Nagato's Gedo Statue dragon is clearly shown stealing the souls of all those Rain ninja. The souls are ripped from their bodies, yet the technique is described as causing the enemy's chakra to be ripped out.

It's not mental gymnastics. It's a concrete pattern of soul and chakra being interchangeable; I don't know how you can explain all this evidence otherwise.

Your evidence is fairly convincing. I've read into this a little bit, refreshing my memory on the composition of chakra. There is a body and mind component, which mixed together creates Chakra. The soul may have become a component of chakra, but the soul is not chakra itself. Likely the mind component also referred to as spirit.

Yes the soul becomes replenished by chakra because chakra is the energy of the soul. Remember that Orochimaru wanted Tsunade to heal the soul of his arms, and this was treated as a legit threat to Konoha. Healing ninjutsu is described as applying chakra directly to the target.

Yes, you use the energy of your soul to create attacks; so it makes sense that no chakra = death. It's unclear how souls functioned prior to Hagoromo because we've yet to see the world in that era.

Fair enough, he likely wanted Tsunade to heal his spiritual energy.

Yes, Bijuu are souls. They're referred to as spirits or demons throughout the story. They can't be permanently destroyed as their chakra reforms and causes them to reincarnate when killed.

Alright with this, they aren't entirely souls though as they do have a physical body.

Small correction, Hiruzen compared incomplete TSBs to Jinton. The TSBs he fought only used 4-5 chakra natures, not all 7. Since Edo Hiruzen was obviously able to regenerate.

TSB (7 natures) >> incomplete TSB (4-5 natures) >> Jinton (3 natures) = molecular deconstruction

I am aware of all this. I knew he was referring to the incomplete TSB that actually didn't erase him, I just didn't think it was relevant enough to mention here.

When Yama says it doesn't burn or erupt, he's likely referring to the fact that it doesn't emit flames not that it doesn't use heat. He was explaining how his Bankai has changed from how it was in the past. And he actually does mention the heat component of his blade, which is the main reason why I'm suspicious of him having erasure. Yama not only verbatim states that his blade works by concentrating heat, he also mentions that his body and blade both reach 15m degrees. See below:

I agree that this extreme level of heat more or less amounts to durability negation (unless you have Sun-bathing feats like Superman or Thor), but it's still ultimately heat and not actual EE.

I agree there's an argument, and I mentioned the "no trace" thing in my initial reply. But the fact that we know Yama's blade does damage via 15m degree heat and not some magical method makes me doubt it based on a single comment of leaving "no trace" (which is very open to interpretation as to what constitutes a "trace"). If science finds out that matter is erased in the core of the Sun, then I'd be fully on board with EE for Yama.

I actually don't agree with your interpretation of the temperature. He only refers to his body as being 15 million degrees, he actually doesn't directly refer to the blade, rather the armour. I do think his sword operates differently from his blade. This is shown as when he pokes his blade into the ground, it leaves a massive fissure with no trace, yet his armour doesn't do the same thing when he walks. But we know his armour is having an effect. Royd Loyd states if he didn't have Blut Vene activated he'd already be ash at a distance.

His blade leaves no trace and doesn't burn (self-admitted). Yet his armour clearly has a heat component (turning Royd to ash without Blut). It's why I think it's existence erasure rather than just a potent heat.

If we're talking literally though as you've touched on, Yama would be star level in potency. But this is beside the point.

I understand, but here's the difference. Yama has a single statement that doesn't directly imply erasure necessarily, and is complicated by the fact that we know he uses Sun-level heat, which does NOT physically erase.

TSBs have multiple statements that say they "erase" / "make disappear" / or "turn to nothing" the things they touch in some unknown mechanism. None of those kinds of statements have been used for Jinton, which works in a defined way by negating bonds between molecules. And we already know incomplete TSBs are superior to Jinton, and that complete TSBs utilize Yin-Yang release (the basis for reality-warping like the Izanagi). There seems to be much more evidence for TSBs working as erasure compared to Jinton or Zanka no Tachi.

There is supporting evidence for TSB, and I actually think some of the evidence you've presented in fairly convincing. But there are too many anti-feats, which I'll bring foward, to show that TSB has had its momentum halted andstretching objects that lack Senjutsu, and failing to erase certain objects instantly. Other words have also been used to describe its properties when dealing damage (eviscerate by Tobirama for example). I think there are just as many anti-feats suggesting that it erases existence on touch, but rather is just really potent.

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Jieldre

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This knowledge should be as common as genjutsu not working without equalization......

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Number3561

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#20  Edited By Number3561

@ninjarizer:

The soul may have become a component of chakra, but the soul is not chakra itself. Likely the mind component also referred to as spirit.

I could see this being the case. Either souls are composed of chakra, or chakra is composed of the soul. The argument still stands though that TSBs can erase chakra.

Alright with this, they aren't entirely souls though as they do have a physical body.

Kind of. Hagoromo used Yin-Yang Release to give their chakra physical form, but they're still very much pure chakra. They're referred to not only as spirits and demons, but as massive aggregations of chakra or chakra monsters. We see this when Minato tears off half the 9 Tails' chakra with the RDS and the 9 Tails becomes significantly smaller in its physical size.

He only refers to his body as being 15 million degrees, he actually doesn't directly refer to the blade, rather the armour. I do think his sword operates differently from his blade.

I think you might've missed what I was pointing out in the scan. See below:

No Caption Provided

Yamamoto: "Its heat reaches 15 million degrees. You cannot even touch me. Think of my body and my blade as being enveloped by the Sun."

Not only Yama's cloak, but Yama's blade is said to be enveloped in that 15m degrees. This is pretty damning against the argument that Yama's blade isn't heat-based.

No Caption Provided

Yamamoto: "I've concentrated all the heat of my fire into the tip of my sword."

If Yama's blade was unrelated to heat, then what's the significance of concentrating heat into the tip if heat isn't even relevant to how it works?

I do think his sword operates differently from his blade.This is shown as when he pokes his blade into the ground, it leaves a massive fissure with no trace, yet his armour doesn't do the same thing when he walks.

His armor does do the same thing. You mention his blade leaving an empty fissure without a trace. Well, here's what Yama's armor does to Yhwach's sword.

Notice how there's no trace of the part of Yhwach's sword that hit the armor. There's no melting, no burns. Very similar to the damage caused by Yama's blade. It almost seems like both his armor and blade work via the same type of heat, doesn't it? Yama doesn't melt the floor he walks on because his feet aren't cloaked in flames.

If we're talking literally though as you've touched on, Yama would be star level in potency.

Not quite. Yama being able to reproduce the Sun's heat on his body is a far cry from the sheer mass of a star, which is producing orders of magnitude more energy thanks to its size. This doesn't give Yama "star-level AP." But agreed, he has a broken ability.

But there are too many anti-feats, which I'll bring foward, to show that TSB has had its momentum halted and stretching objects that lack Senjutsu, and failing to erase certain objects instantly.

I think I already know what anti-feats you're talking about: Minato's cloak, Tobirama teleporting one, Sakura being pierced, etc. But here's the issue: you yourself don't believe that these anti-feats accurately represent the true threat of TSBs as they've been narrated in the story. You already admitted that you think TSBs are "really potent," or surpass molecular disintegration, or may have "physical" erasure. In that case, the anti-feats listed above would go against even your own interpretation of how TSBs work. So unless you're suggesting that TSBs be considered basic weapons with no matter properties whatsoever (which you don't seem to be based on your comments), then these moments shouldn't take away from the overall picture. The main picture of TSBs being treated as incredibly deadly in the story, rather than as small inconveniences that can be tanked and touched with impunity.

If both of us are obviously not judging our interpretations of TSBs on these inconsistencies, and are in fact ignoring them in favor of the overall narrative surrounding their danger, why bring them up? They're obviously not the standard we're using.

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TORONTOTOKYO

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ye

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Aren't souls in Naruto made out of chakra bodies? This is pointless.