Top 30 Most Powerful Sith Lords DRAFT

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Necromancer76

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Alrighty, so I've been planning on making this for a long time and I always get sidetracked and then get temporarily bored of Star Wars so I want to try and grind it out before that happens again. My plan with this draft is to post it here and hopefully on some other forums so it can be discussed and critiqued while I compile the descriptions, backgrounds, lists of feats, quotes, images, etc. Then, once I have it all set up, I'll examine the draft, see what people have proposed and talked about, and then adjust my list accordingly to more accurately depict how the community feels. I would then post it as a blog and change it as time goes on and opinions of certain characters shift.

While it technically will be a list, I'm organizing it into tiers as well to illustrate the great flexibility within each tier. "Power" in this sense mostly equates to dueling ability/skill and force power, but other factors will be taken into account like speed, strength, intelligence, etc. All of these things combined I guess.

I already made a list for Ancient Sith so I'm excluding them, as well as some other characters that I'll bring up if need be.

Anyway, this is what I have at the moment:

Non-Sith Darksiders (that I'm essentially "shouting out" and saying they'd probably be on this list if they had the title of Sith):

  • Jerec
  • Asajj Ventress
  • Savage Oppress
  • Arcann (and Thexan)
  • Vaylin

Tier 0 (wildcards that don't necessarily fit with the rest):

  • Pre-Suit Vader/Knightfall Vader/Mustafar Vader (because I'm already ranking Suited Vader, it's weird to have him twice)
  • The Dread Masters (Collective)
  • Darth Sion (Immortal)

Now for the actual list:

  1. Darth Sidious
  2. Lords of the Lost Tribe of the Sith (Darish Vol, Sarasu Taalon, Olaris Rhea, Viun Gaalan, Ivaar Workan combined into one to not take up too many places)
  3. Darth Plagueis
  4. Valkorion
  5. Darth Krayt
  6. Revan
  7. Darth Caedus
  8. Darth Tenebrous
  9. Darth Vader (ROTJ)
  10. Darth Nihilus
  11. Count Dooku
  12. Starkiller (composite of the original and clone)
  13. Exar Kun
  14. Darth Venamis
  15. Banite Sith (Ramage/Guile/Gean/Gravid/Vectivus/Millennial/Cognus) (composite of them I guess)
  16. Darth Malak
  17. Darth Wyyrlok III
  18. Darth Zannah
  19. Darth Bane
  20. Darth Malgus
  21. Darth Maul
  22. Lumiya
  23. Darth Nox (pre-Outlander prime so SoR I think)
  24. Second Emperor's Wrath (pre-Outlander prime so SoR I think)
  25. Ulic Qel-Droma
  26. Darth Nyriss
  27. Darth Traya
  28. Lord Scourge
  29. Darth Marr
  30. Darth Jadus

Other candidates who could replace some of those lower picks are Darth Thanaton, Darth Baras, Darth Nihl, Darth Talon, Darth Maladi, Vestara Khai, Gavar Khai, etc.

The specific tiers (besides Tier 0):

  • Tier 1: Rankings 1-5
  • Tier 2: Rankings 6-10
  • Tier 3: Rankings 11-15
  • Tier 4: Rankings 16-30
  • Tier 5: Anyone that didn't quite make it

If you disagree with any, PLEASE say so in the comments so I can fix it to match the community. I placed these characters from past discussions so they might not apply anymore. I'm happy to explain why I placed them where I did, but if you argue against it, I won't really put up a defense because I'm more than willing to change the placements. Tier groups can be shifted as well.

Anyway, this is mostly for fun so I encourage everyone to not get too hostile with each other (as I have many times in the past). It'll just be cool to have one big list for us hyper mega ultra Star Wars fans to appreciate and whatnot.

Thank you all for giving me the time of day ;)

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Necromancer76

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#2  Edited By Necromancer76
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GodGate

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@necromancer76: Composite Starkiller is way too low hombre, why is count Dooku above him? 🤔 Didn't he lose to a pre KF anakin? Starkiller basically beat ANH Vader if we take all his feats together and stalemated Sidious himself for a few seconds before dying.

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Necromancer76

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@godgate: I put him there primarily because I thought his force skill equals out to Dooku's dueling skill.

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Richard96

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@godgate:

“Composite Starkiller is way too low hombre, why is count Dooku above him? 🤔 Didn't he lose to a pre KF anakin? Starkiller basically beat ANH Vader if we take all his feats together and stalemated Sidious himself for a few seconds before dying.”

Starkiller clone, who was > original one, fought evenly (and witwer stated Vader gamed starkiller all the time) with a pre ANH Vader, who lost to a clone of TPM Maul. He doesn’t hold a candle to Sidious, lol. Necromancer has been even too generous.

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GodGate

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#7  Edited By GodGate

@richard96: Vader didn't improve much since TFU 2 since it was only a year before ANH. Besides, Starkiller is at least obi-wan level as duelist due to the fact that he is capable of thrashing Vader with his lightsaber alone if you try it IG + very The fact that he knows vaapad, already makes him an elite tier duelist. Combine this together with insane force power, I see no reason for him to not be stronger than count dooku.

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KillBilly

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#8  Edited By KillBilly

@richard96 said:

@godgate:

“Composite Starkiller is way too low hombre, why is count Dooku above him? 🤔 Didn't he lose to a pre KF anakin? Starkiller basically beat ANH Vader if we take all his feats together and stalemated Sidious himself for a few seconds before dying.”

Starkiller clone, who was > original one, fought evenly (and witwer stated Vader gamed starkiller all the time) with a pre ANH Vader, who lost to a clone of TPM Maul. He doesn’t hold a candle to Sidious, lol. Necromancer has been even too generous.

Lol what. The Starkiller clone fought evenly with Vader when he was exhausted.

"The tips of his lightsabers shook. He had never felt so exhausted, at every level of his being.”

-- The Force Unleashed II.

What is this nonsense you're spouting.

The fight with Maul you're referencing is stated to be non canon and in the comic itself the Sith acolytes admit that Vader could destroy them all with the Force if he wanted to.

And why doesn't he hold a candle? Sidious was stated to be desperate during their fight? Seems like somebody who doesn't hold a candle to someone else shouldn't be able to drive them to desperation tbh.

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GodGate

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@killbilly: Not arguing with you, but TFU 2 Galen was significantly stronger than he was in TFU since he was capable pulling off his pulling down a star destroyer feat casually when the ship fell to kamino and he had to rag doll star destroyer ship debris out of his way + he did most of the campaign while exhausted and he still managed to beat Vader through sheer power alone, not cunning like he did in the previous game.

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_Logos_

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I thought Caedus was above Revan.

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Necromancer76

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@_logos_: It's a tossup to be honest, but I feel most people side with Revan based on his SoR feats and his relative parity with Ziost Vitiate. Feel free to provide an argument though, I'm a big fan of Caedus as well.

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GodGate

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Vader is too high on this list if Galen is a 12. My reason for saying this is that Galen stalemated Sidious to the point of desperation in a fair fight while Vader was only capable of winning over his master with a sneak attack. And before people start arguing about it, there should not be a very large difference between TFU 2 Vader and ROTJ Vader since he will always cap at 80% of Sidious according to Lucas himself.

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TheVivas

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@godgate: Galen never “stalemated” Sidious.

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GodGate

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@thevivas: Nu uh! Yes he did, Sidious was being described as being pushed to desperation in the novelization.

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dalootajr

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@necromancer76: Good list, I think that Maul should be above Malgus but otherwise it's good.

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Richard96

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@godgate:

“Vader didn't improve much since TFU 2 since it was only a year before ANH.”

I agree. Anyway, that Vader lost to TPM maul, who is arguably weaker than ROTS Kenobi, who is weaker than dooku.

“Besides, Starkiller is at least obi-wan level as duelist due to the fact that he is capable of thrashing Vader with his lightsaber alone if you try it IG + very The fact that he knows vaapad, already makes him an elite tier duelist. Combine this together with insane force power, I see no reason for him to not be stronger than count dooku.”

He is TPM maul level in sabers. By comparing his force feats to dooku’s, you must consider the very developers of TFU stated they exaggerated the feats. In the force he could be deemed a rough equal of ANH Vader, who dooku should be fairly close. So the dueling edge should assure dooku’s superiority.

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Richard96

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#18  Edited By Richard96

@killbilly:

I see that your Starkiller wank is as bad as always.

“Lol what. The Starkiller clone fought evenly with Vader when he was exhausted.”

Which he started to replenish few lines after. And he saw that a guy like dooku can replenish his force reserves in few moments. Why should be different with SK, especially when he never showed any sign of exhaustion after those lines? And Witwer stated Vader gamed SK all the time:

This is all part of the plan. "Yeah, yeah, you know, he caught me off guard once. I'll let him beat me this time so he takes me captive."

-- Far, Far Away: Episode VIII: Sam Witwer

“The fight with Maul you're referencing is stated to be non canon and in the comic itself the Sith acolytes admit that Vader could destroy them all with the Force if he wanted to.”

Except that it was mentioned in the Complete SW Encyclopedia and confirmed to be canon by Chee. Sith acolytes =\= Maul.

“And why doesn't he hold a candle? Sidious was stated to be desperate during their fight? Seems like somebody who doesn't hold a candle to someone else shouldn't be able to drive them to desperation tbh.”

While SK was in a state of oneness. It wasn’t regular SK. And the SW Encyclopedia states that even Oneness SK was “ultimately no match for the power of Darth Sidious”. A ludicrously amped SK was still no match for Palps. The DS ending, which is an accurate depiction of how the events would have taken place if SK chose to turn on Palps, as per Matt Martin, is already clear about how SK compares to Palps. Start to whine “it’s not canon”. Matt Martin > your butthurt.

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GodGate

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@richard96: Listen, that may be true that dooku has a slight dueling superiority but Galen's force superiority is so much higher that it makes this fight shift into his favor of a stomp almost immediately.

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King-Ragnar

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Starkiller shouldn't be that high up. Zannah and Bane shouldn't be above Maul.

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Richard96

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#21  Edited By Richard96

@godgate:

“Listen, that may be true that dooku has a slight dueling superiority but Galen's force superiority is so much higher that it makes this fight shift into his favor of a stomp almost immediately.”

-1: Dooku has a LARGE dueling edge since SK wasn’t able to overcome by light saber combat a largely pre prime Vader who lost to TPM maul and struggled with a largely post prime Kenobi, while dooku held his own against yoda, who in turn disarmed Sidious who in turn clowned while toying a TCW maul who is better than TPM Maul. Dooku has simply much better saber feats. Plain and simple.

-2: It’s Galen supposed force superiority that is slight, since he was roughly on par with a pre prime Vader, who in turn is on dooku’s level as force user, arguably slightly better in raw power, but with no lighting and less multitasking ability.

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Necromancer76

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Starkiller shouldn't be that high up. Zannah and Bane shouldn't be above Maul.

Even considering their force abilities?

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Richard96

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#23  Edited By Richard96

This is a draft of my list (the end is probably sh!t)

- Darth Sidious (although Taalon would be really close to him...)

- Sarasu Taalon (There is the rest of the Lost Tribe, they are quite powerful but they have few feats and I am not very knowledgeable about them so I’ll ignore them)

- Darth Krayt (Reborn)

- Darth Caedus

- Valkorion (assuming him a sith)

- Darth Vader (KF)

- Darth Plagueis

- Darth Tyranus

- Darth Tenebrous

- Darth Wyrlock III

- Darth Maul (SOD)

- Lumiya

- Darth Nihilus

- Jerec

- Darth Malak

- Darth Revan

- Darth Malgus

- Exar Kun

- Ulic Qel-Droma

- Savage Opress

- Asajj Ventress

- Darth Zannah

- Darth Bane

- Darth Marr

- Darth Nox

- The Emperor’s Wrath

- Darth Traya

- Darth Nyriss

- Darth Baras

- Darth Thanaton

- Darth Nihl

- Darth Talon

- Lord Scourge

- Darth Jadus (wouldn’t even deserve to be called a Sith Lord cause he repeatedly lost to a non force sensitive lol)

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FinalKingThanos

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@necromancer76: is this based on legends /EU I assume? Not a bad list.

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Necromancer76

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@finalkingthanos: Yeah, it's pretty much composite but leaning Legends. And thank you, I'm glad it's at least generally strong overall

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GodGate

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@richard96:

1. Your basing this on the assumption that Kenobi had become a worst duelist over time while it's been shown that Jedi actually become stronger with age and I hate this "pre-prime vader" idea that people have in their heads since it makes no sense. Vader did not improve so much within the period of ANH to ROTJ to classify him as a different version of himself. At best, I could see a 20% increase in power but no more since he caps at 80% of Sidious at all times. George Lucas has said this himself. Besides, sabers are useless in a fight when your opponent has overwhelming power within the force and is simply rag dolling you around as they please and there's really nothing even stopping composite Galen from disarming Dooku with use of the force, removing his advantages here almost immediately. The gap between Galen and Dooku's saber skill levels isn't even as vast as you claim, considering the many different styles that Galen has under his belt and the simulation training he did with proxy gives one the idea that he's capable of beating "Prime" Kenobi in battle of sabers. Someone that isn't really that far off from Dooku either.

2. Slight? Count Dooku cannot even pull off half the feats Galen has accomplished with the force. He was compared to a freaking Jedi Master in force power as a toddler for Christ's sake. Nothing count Dooku has done really compares with Galen's best force feats. How can you compare someone who got strangled from across the galaxy by Sidious to someone who was capable of stalemating a significantly stronger version of him to the point of desperation? The point is that you can't.

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King-Ragnar

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@necromancer76: Zannah doesn't really have anything going for her force wise besides Sith Sorcerery, which has only proven useful against weak minded people. As for Bane, Maul has already replicated something similar to Bane's force feat when the former was only 15. Along with hilarious gap in lightsaber skill that Maul has over Bane and Zannah.

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Necromancer76

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@king-ragnar: Zannah is confirmed better than Bane because of Banite scaling (she learns everything he knows and surpasses "the master" by defeating him and then growing in power). Interesting point about Maul vs Bane though. What force feat are you referring to?

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Richard96

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@godgate:

“1. Your basing this on the assumption that Kenobi had become a worst duelist over time while it's been shown that Jedi actually become stronger with age”

Kenobi was STATED be have grown weaker as of ANH.

“and I hate this "pre-prime vader" idea that people have in their heads since it makes no sense. Vader did not improve so much within the period of ANH to ROTJ to classify him as a different version of himself.“

Again, Vader was STATED be have become a far more formidable fighter between ANH and ESB, and he was stated to have grown even more in ROTJ. My claims are always based on sources.

“Besides, sabers are useless in a fight when your opponent has overwhelming power within the force and is simply rag dolling you around as they please and there's really nothing even stopping composite Galen from disarming Dooku with use of the force, removing his advantages here almost immediately.”

But Galen DOES NOT HAVE an overwhelming force advantage. He doesn’t have it against a pre prime Vader (who managed to force choke and ragdoll Galen in various instances in TFU II and Galen always struggled a lot to break himself free), he doesn’t have it against Dooku. He’s a rough equal of TFU II Vader, one who could not even exert “his overwhelming force advantage” against maul, who is < dooku. Besides, not even yoda was able to disarm dooku with the force.

“The gap between Galen and Dooku's saber skill levels isn't even as vast as you claim, considering the many different styles that Galen has under his belt and the simulation training he did with proxy gives one the idea that he's capable of beating "Prime" Kenobi in battle of sabers. Someone that isn't really that far off from Dooku either.”

Considering Galen could not beat Vader in sabers and that Vader is < TPM maul < ROTS Kenobi < Dooku, the gap is considerable.

“2. Slight? Count Dooku cannot even pull off half the feats Galen has accomplished with the force. He was compared to a freaking Jedi Master in force power as a toddler for Christ's sake. Nothing count Dooku has done really compares with Galen's best force feats.”

Galen’s feats have been exaggerated by the game creators own words. Scaling place him where he deserves.

“How can you compare someone who got strangled from across the galaxy by Sidious“

1: It was stated the distance doesn’t hamper force usage.

2: Dooku is Sidious’ apprentice and it’s in awe of him and wouldn’t try to fight back. It wasn’t a combat situation.

“ to someone who was capable of stalemating a significantly stronger version of him to the point of desperation?”

Again with this hilariously bad fan wank?!? SK was in a state of Oneness and the best he could do was cause and explosion which killed himself and left Sidious almost unharmed. Sidious >>>>>> Galen, as we saw in the DS ending that per Matt Martin is an accurate depiction of the power gap between them. PERIOD.

“The point is that you can't.”

Sidious > Dooku > TPM Maul > ANH Vader ~ TFU II Vader ~ TFU II SK > TFU I SK > TFU I Vader.

This would be my last post about this topic.

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King-Ragnar

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@necromancer76:

Zannah is confirmed better than Bane because of Banite scaling

Not really my point, given that Zannah is weaker than Maul. (Although i don't agree with Zannah being > Bane at the end of DoE, given that Zannah pretty much admitted she wasn't as powerful as DoE Bane). Sith sorcery only works effectively against weak minded beings, evident by how Bane wrestled it off pretty easily.

Interesting point about Maul vs Bane though. What force feat are you referring to?

His Orsis Barracks showing.

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KillBilly

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#31  Edited By KillBilly

@richard96 said:

“Lol what. The Starkiller clone fought evenly with Vader when he was exhausted.”

Which he started to replenish few lines after.

No, he didn't. He was stated to be "breathing in and out" in order to regain his strength. This is something normal humans do after they've pushed themselves too far when doing a strenuous activity.

"He maintained a defensive pose, breathing rhythmically and deeply, regaining his strength. The tips of his lightsabers shook. He had never felt so exhausted, at every level of his being." - The Force Unleashed II.

He's stated to be exhausted and physically shaking despite doing this.

@richard96 said:

And we saw that a guy like dooku can replenish his force reserves in few moments. Why should be different with SK, especially when he never showed any sign of exhaustion after those lines?

No Caption Provided

The description of how Sidious teaches his students to view the world in order to enhance their power is eerily similar to Dooku's described view at the point wherein he washes away his tiredness:

"Its entire purpose is the perfection of the will and expansion of personal power.

-

Those who are seduced by the Dark Side know only that their individual will has been enhanced. All that is required for them is a sensitivity to the energies of the Force... and an act of surrender to the path of anger and violence, regardless of the consequence to others." - Dark Empire Endnotes.

---

Dooku's view of the world as described in the RotS novelization:

"He is entirely incapable of caring what any given creature might feel for him. He cares only what that creature might do for him. Or to him. Very possibly, he is what he is because other beings just aren't very . . . interesting. Or even, in a sense, entirely real. For Dooku, other beings are mostly abstractions, simple schematic sketches who fall into two essential categories. The first category is Assets: beings who can be used to serve his various interests. Such as-for most of his life, and to some extent even now-the Jedi, particularly Mace Windu and Yoda, both of whom had regarded him as their friend for so long that it had effectively blinded them to the truth of his activities."

-

The other category is Threats. In this second set, he numbers every sentient being he cannot include in the first.

There is no third category.- Revenge of the Sith.

Dooku's description is that of a classic psychopath which aligns perfectly with the tenets that one should hold in order to enhance their will and power as a Darksider per the DE endnotes. Here is how Dooku is described when he washes away his tiredness.

"He dusted himself off and fixed a supercilious gaze on Skywalker, who now stood upon the balcony looking down at him-and Dooku couldn't hold the stare; he found this reversal of their original positions oddly unsettling.

There was something troublingly appropriate about it. Seeing Skywalker standing where Dooku himself had stood only moments ago ... it was as though he was trying to remember a dream he'd never actually had...

He pushed this aside, drawing once more upon the certain knowledge of his personal invincibility to open a channel to the Force. Power flowed into him, and the weight of his years dropped away." - Revenge of the Sith.

Dooku attempts to pridefully stare down Anakin but finds he cannot hold the stare with his confidence seeming to waver before he takes the time to reassure himself of his own invincibility, opening a channel to the Force that had previously been denied to him. This is because, prior to this point, Dooku had lost his confidence due to Anakin and Kenobi's ploy, something that chipped away at the image of himself as the center of the universe and hindering his ability to fully draw on the Darkside.

Until he became the axis of the Universe. This was the real power of the dark side, the power he had suspected even as a boy, had sought through his long life until Darth Sidious had shown him that it had been his all along. The dark side didn't bring him to the center of the universe. It made him the center. He drew power into his innermost being until the Force itself existed only to serve his will.

-

They were not prepared to fight together against a single Force-user, certainly not one of Dooku's power; he, on the other hand, had always fought alone. It was laughably easy to keep the Jedi tripping and stumbling and getting in each other's way. They didn't even comprehend how utterly he dominated the combat. They allowed the Force to direct them; Dooku directed the Force. He drew their strikes to his parries, and drove his own ripostes with thrusts of dark power that subtly altered the Jedi's balance and disrupted their timing. He could have slaughtered both of them as casually as that creature Maul had destroyed the vigos of the Black Sun.

-

Dooku felt himself blanch. Where had this come from? Skywalker came on, mechanically inexorable, impossibly powerful, a destroyer droid with a lightsaber: each step a blow and each blow a step. Dooku backed away as fast as he dared; Skywalker stayed right on top of him. Dooku's breath went short and hard.

-

Dooku found himself having a sudden, unexpected, overpowering, and entirely distressing bad feeling about this. His farce had suddenly, inexplicably, spun from humorous to deadly serious and was tumbling rapidly toward terrifying.

-

He pushed this aside, drawing once more upon the certain knowledge of his personal invincibility to open a channel to the Force. Power flowed into him, and the weight of his years dropped away." - Revenge of the Sith.

Nowhere does it state that Dooku "replenished his Force reserves." Considering Grandmaster Luke Skywalker doesn't even believe it's possible to accomplish such a feat without rest and meditation, your assertion that Starkiller and Dooku would be capable of doing it within a couple moments is absurd.

"He felt weary. Well, wearier. That last fight on Almania had stolen a lot of his strength. Keeping himself going despite his injury had taken more. And now this. What he had sacrificed he would eventually regain, after rest and food and meditation, but for now..." - Fate of the Jedi - Conviction.

@richard96 said:

And Witwer stated Vader gamed SK all the time:

This is all part of the plan. "Yeah, yeah, you know, he caught me off guard once. I'll let him beat me this time so he takes me captive."

-- Far, Far Away: Episode VIII: Sam Witwer

The "gaming" quote you're referring to comes from an interview about Sam Witwer discussing his understanding of a hypothetical TFUIII that was still in development at the time...

For one, even if it had occurred, we don't know the context or circumstances behind why events played out that way. Secondly, that event occurring at all was in no way set in stone as the sequel to TFU II was still in the early stages of its development at the time. And thirdly, the source is a voice actor with no authority to dictate what is or isn't canon or even the ability to give us knowledge of what the creator of said events was thinking at the time when they made them. His interpretation of events ( even if they had happened ) has no more relevance than that of any other Star Wars fan.

@richard96 said:

“The fight with Maul you're referencing is stated to be non canon and in the comic itself the Sith acolytes admit that Vader could destroy them all with the Force if he wanted to.”

Except that it was mentioned in the Complete SW Encyclopedia and confirmed to be canon by Chee. Sith acolytes =\= Maul.

When was this? Because Chee as recently as May 2019 stated that the Darth Maul comic was "non-continuity EU."

No Caption Provided

Maul is implied to be a creation of the Sith acolytes both by Chee and the acolytes in the comic itself.

"Who knows, it could have been a vision like Luke confronting Vader on Dagobah or just some sort of Sith illusion. Or a clone. Nothing's been determined as to what we are actually seeing" - Leeland Chee.

1. When Maul initially engages with Vader the acolytes tell him to stop reaching a hand out in his direction and he does so. Maul has no reason to obey such a command unless they have some sort of influence over him.

No Caption Provided

2. When Vader asks how the acolytes have brought Maul back the Sith acolytes answer that there are ways to "create" an individual. To "mold" them in every way:

No Caption Provided

Sidious echoes this refain further implying that it's some sort of artificial creation:

No Caption Provided

3. After the acolytes have explained their plans, Vader asks why they think either he or the Emperor would have allowed their plan to be carried out.

The acolytes respond that Sidious would likely forgive them if Maul ends up beating Vader and that while Vader could simply refuse the duel with the doppleganger and attempt destroy ALL of them ( this includes the acolytes AND Maul since, if he wasn't capable of destroying Maul along with the acolytes, Vader would have no ability to prevent the duel in the first place ) he should refrain from doing so due to how the Emperor would view such an action and appealing to Vader's own curiosity regarding how he would fare against Maul.

To clarify, when Vader suggests he could refuse the duel and simply destroy all of them the acolytes do not deny that he would be capable of such a feat. Instead, they admit that if he attempts to do such he might be successful and use other arguments to dissuade him from such a course of action.

No Caption Provided

This is the intended interpretation according to the author btw:

No Caption Provided

Also, just as a side point. The acolytes had been planning this meaning Maul was prepped for the fight and had time to gather his power whereas Vader did not giving the Maul doppleganger an advantage in the fight. The author of the comic confirms this as well:

No Caption Provided

@richard96 said:

“And why doesn't he hold a candle? Sidious was stated to be desperate during their fight? Seems like somebody who doesn't hold a candle to someone else shouldn't be able to drive them to desperation tbh.”

While SK was in a state of oneness. It wasn’t regular SK.

Yes it was. Galen isn't ever stated to be in Oneness. People assume he is due to the description of him AFTER he lowers his Force defenses and released an enormous explosion. Prior to this, he's stated to have driven Sidious to the point desperation with Sidious fueling his attacks with said desperations.

"With shaking fingers, he took the old man's bony shoulders in his hands and gripped them tight. The Sith lightning spread to engulf the two of them, fueled by both their desperations. The Emperor tipped back his head and howled in lascivious pain. Darkness threatened to envelop the apprentice's mind, but he clutched to consciousness with feverish will. He had to see this through. He had to. A squadron of stormtroopers ran into the room, led by a limping Darth Vader. They raised their blasters to gun down the Rebels as they fled up the Rogue Shadow's ramp.

"No!" the apprentice cried, dropping his defenses to strike one last time at the Imperials. Energy surged through him. He felt as though a star had blazed to life in his chest. Driven by concern for his friends rather than himself, he embraced the Force completely, utterly, and was rewarded with strength that made his efforts with the dark side look like those of a child. His nerves were on fire. Streamers of light radiated from his skin. His bones glowed like radiant lava." - The Force Unleashed.

@richard96 said:

And the SW Encyclopedia states that even Oneness SK was “ultimately no match for the power of Darth Sidious”. A ludicrously amped SK was still no match for Palps.

Galen was shown to have actively lowered his Force defenses prior to releasing an explosion of Force energy in his amped sate. Prior to that he was managing to defend against his and Palpatine's desperation fueled Force lightning as I showed above. The quote you're referencing makes no mention of Galen being in a Oneness state:

As Juno rescued the Senators, Starkiller confronted the Sith Lords who had been manipulating him for years. Lightsabers clashed inside the Emperor's observation dome, but Starkiller was ultimately no match for the power of Darth Sidious. -The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

The quote itself is the equivalent of saying "in the end, Galen was not Sidious's equal." Considering Galen's final act was essentially him throwing down a bomb within his vicinity without any sort of protection in order to distract his enemies to let his allies escape, I don't see how one can compare the two's abilities. Especially when a non amped version of Galen ragdolled Vader prior to this and Vader manages to defend against the explosion despite being more injured than he was when Galen ragdolled him.

@richard96 said:

The DS ending, which is an accurate depiction of how the events would have taken place if SK chose to turn on Palps, as per Matt Martin, is already clear about how SK compares to Palps. Start to whine “it’s not canon”. Matt Martin > your butthurt.

Please post the quote from Matt Martin. Either way, it's irrelevant. The version of Galen as depicted in the non canon version of events is a version of himself who has given in to the Darkside. We know that Galen in his final fight with Vader, after coming to the realization that Vader is a pitiable being who shouldn't be emulated, is able to ragdoll him when he couldn't before meaning that Galen after he achieved this understanding is more powerful than when he is consumed by hatred and the desire for revenge.

Regardless of what Sidious would be capable of achieving against of a version of Galen who can't let go of the past, we know that Sidious fighting against a version of Galen who has let overcome his traumas isn't able to overwhelm him with Force lightning despite fueling said lightning with his desperations.

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KillBilly

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@godgate:

He is TPM maul level in sabers. By comparing his force feats to dooku’s, you must consider the very developers of TFU stated they exaggerated the feats. In the force he could be deemed a rough equal of ANH Vader, who dooku should be fairly close. So the dueling edge should assure dooku’s superiority.

Your first assertion is based off of the faulty notion that the Maul doppleganger in Resurrection possesses the same abilities as the real Maul or that the fight has any bearing on the canon capabilities of Vader or TPM Maul.

Your second that TFU is exaggerated has nothing to do with GodGate's claims since the things he's referencing for why he places Starkiller where he does come from the novel and not the game.

Your third claim is completely unsubstantiated since there's no reason Vader would go from being within ragdoll range for Galen to being his peer within a 1-2 year period where he fights no major enemies.

@godgate:

-1: Dooku has a LARGE dueling edge since SK wasn’t able to overcome by light saber combat a largely pre prime Vader who lost to TPM maul and struggled with a largely post prime Kenobi, while dooku held his own against yoda, who in turn disarmed Sidious who in turn clowned while toying a TCW maul who is better than TPM Maul. Dooku has simply much better saber feats. Plain and simple.

-2: It’s Galen supposed force superiority that is slight, since he was roughly on par with a pre prime Vader, who in turn is on dooku’s level as force user, arguably slightly better in raw power, but with no lighting and less multitasking ability.

1. Addressed in the previous post. Aside from the fight being non canon and the Maul in the fight not being the actual Maul. Starkiller was exhausted in the fight where he STALEMATED a much more powerful version of Vader.

2. Outside of this being based on the faulty idea that Vader somehow went from being within ragdoll territory of Galen to his peer, it's also problematic for the idea that Dooku is on ANH Vader's level as a Force user which is not substantiated at all and in fact is a stance that possesses much evidence to the contrary.

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KillBilly

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Starkiller shouldn't be that high up. Zannah and Bane shouldn't be above Maul.

Based on what?

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GodGate

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@killbilly: Thanks bro for addressing his post, I was going to do it my self but I had stuff to do lol.

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KillBilly

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@godgate said:

@killbilly: Thanks bro for addressing his post, I was going to do it my self but I had stuff to do lol.

No problem man. Can't stand letting people spread misinformation.

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El_mago

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why is vader below revan tenebrous and krayt tho.... not too mention plagueis is too high.....

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Richard96

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#37  Edited By Richard96

@killbilly:

“No, he didn't. He was stated to be "breathing in and out" in order to regain his strength. This is something normal humans do after they've pushed themselves too far when doing a strenuous activity.”

The novel explicitly states he was regaining his strength. Obviously he hasn’t still recovered the next line, but he started.

“He's stated to be exhausted and physically shaking despite doing this.”

He began recovering his strength as soon as the fight with the clones ended, and you and I both know how quickly SK recovers from weariness. He then had several minutes on top of that when leaping from platform to platform to get to the top of the cloning tower, using one of the least strenuous Force abilities. Several minutes are well enough since dooku could replenish his force reserves in few moments.

“Nowhere does it state that Dooku "replenished his Force reserves."

Sure there is, they are the lines you conveniently didn’t underline. At this point, dooku has just taken a huge hammering from anakin at the point he was exhausted. After that, and after unbalanced anakin, dooku was even relaxed. He wouldn’t be relaxed if he was still exhausted. There is even a quote (I think from the junior novel) stating the DS would have kept dooku going indefinitely.

“He pushed this aside, drawing once more upon the certain knowledge of his personal invincibility to open a channel to the Force. Power flowed into him, and the weight of his years dropped away.”

ROTS Novel

“Considering Grandmaster Luke Skywalker doesn't even believe it's possible to accomplish such a feat without rest and meditation, your assertion that Starkiller and Dooku would be capable of doing it within a couple moments is absurd.“

Lol, Luke wasn’t simply tired. He was badly wounded and near dead. Sure he can’t magically heal from his wounds.

“His interpretation of events ( even if they had happened ) has no more relevance than that of any other Star Wars fan.”

Sure it has more authority than you and me and relevance than your fan wank.

“ When was this? Because Chee as recently as May 2019 stated that the Darth Maul comic was "non-continuity EU."“

Eh, fair enough. I wasn’t aware of this tweet. I mainly referred to the sources listed in this blog. It seems Chee changed his mind.

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/star-wars-universe-1943200/battle-misconceptions-darth-maul-vs-darth-vader-1877498/

Anyway, it doesn’t really help you much. ANH Vader still struggled with Ben, a shadow of his former self, and it was stated he couldn’t even break his defenses before Kenobi voluntarily yielded. ANH Vader is a sub-ROTS Kenobi level duelist. One who cannot stomp him can’t hold a candle to sidious.

“Yes it was. Galen isn't ever stated to be in Oneness. People assume he is due to the description of him AFTER he lowers his Force defenses and released an enormous explosion. Prior to this, he's stated to have driven Sidious to the point desperation with Sidious fueling his attacks with said desperations.”

And then it’s just plain inconsistent. He would have performed better/equally than Yoda against a superior version of Palpatine, who was pushed to his full limit by sidious lighting as per ROTS novel. So, or sidious was not going all out/Galen was amped, or it’s just inconsistent. Even considering that TFU I SK < TFU II SK. So, prepare to state TFU II SK > Yoda, so we end this discussion. Also, the SW Encyclopedia debunks the notion SK is a match for sidious.

“Please post the quote from Matt Martin. Either way, it's irrelevant.”

Obviously it was a tweet, so I wouldn’t really know how to retrieve it. I read it time ago on these boards. But given you say it’s irrilevant cause it hurts you headcanon...

“The version of Galen as depicted in the non canon version of events is a version of himself who has given in to the Darkside. We know that Galen in his final fight with Vader, after coming to the realization that Vader is a pitiable being who shouldn't be emulated, is able to ragdoll him when he couldn't before meaning that Galen after he achieved this understanding is more powerful than when he is consumed by hatred and the desire for revenge”

So much manure and speculation. Galen ragdolled Vader cause he was exhausted and wounded. The Galen that is in the DS ending is the same Galen that is in the LS one. The DS makes you more powerful, if anything. This is common knowledge.

“Regardless of what Sidious would be capable of achieving against of a version of Galen who can't let go of the past, we know that Sidious fighting against a version of Galen who has let overcome his traumas isn't able to overwhelm him with Force lightning despite fueling said lightning with his desperations.“

You are taking a single inconsistent showing, that clash with TFU II SK showings that those of an equal of Vader, not of Sidious, to wank him to death. Pre-ESB Luke shook a Star Destroyer. ROTJ Luke had to concentrate to lift C3-P0. You must consider the whole portrayal of a character, you cannot cherry-pick a single showing when it’s plain inconsistent.

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Richard96

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#38  Edited By Richard96

@killbilly:

“Your third claim is completely unsubstantiated since there's no reason Vader would go from being within ragdoll range for Galen to being his peer within a 1-2 year period where he fights no major enemies.”

A badly beaten, wounded and exhausted Vader was getting ragdolled by SK in TFU I, lol. It’s irrilevant how Vader improved. He improved, cause he matched a superior SK.

“2. Outside of this being based on the faulty idea that Vader somehow went from being within ragdoll territory of Galen to his peer”

Already addressed.

“it's also problematic for the idea that Dooku is on ANH Vader's level as a Force user which is not substantiated at all and in fact is a stance that possesses much evidence to the contrary.”

Dooku has similar force feats, has defeated ROTS Kenobi while dealing with anakin and has hold his own against yoda (being outside of his ragdolling range) Vader was having trouble with a post prime kenobi and it’s a shadow of his former self. It’s pretty clear dooku is at least very close to vader. Anyway, I won’t start a dooku vs Vader debate. Your entire fan wank is based on the “boo-boo SK was exhausted”, that isn’t true, and “hurr durr he legitimately stalemated sidious”, that is plain inconsistent and debunked by the SW Encyclopedia.

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AotD

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seems quite well ranked, though for me Krayt is a little bit above of his place

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Necromancer76

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#40  Edited By Necromancer76

@el_mago said:

why is vader below revan tenebrous and krayt tho.... not too mention plagueis is too high.....

Revan has the best precog and durability in the verse, Tenebrous scales directly from Plagueis, Krayt performed in a comparable manner to GM Luke against Abeloth and can one-shot people with dark transfer +shatterpoint. Plagueis can use midichlorian manipulation which is stupidly OP.

I'm open to Vader being above Tenebrous tho, they're honestly interchangeable for me so I could be persuaded to move Vader above him.

@aotd said:

seems quite well ranked, though for me Krayt is a little bit above of his place

Thank you, thank you. I put Krayt that high because a lot of people compare him to Sidious and the like now. I see him at the number 2 or 3 spot quite a lot now which is a little weird for me tbh

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Lord_Tenebrous

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#41  Edited By Lord_Tenebrous

@richard96: @killbilly:

Ah, no. The author of Resurrection confirmed that the Maul who fought Vader was the same Maul in TPM:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/cxykbdyoY8sJVFNQA

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TheGodMadara

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@godgate: that doesn't make sense because Sidious was stated to be the most powerful sith lord of all time

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GodGate

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@thegodmadara: He was, but Galen was capable of pushing him to desperation so it only makes sense that they should be peers in rank here.

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KillBilly

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@richard96: @killbilly:

Ah, no. The author of Resurrection confirmed that the Maul who fought Vader was the same Maul in TPM:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/cxykbdyoY8sJVFNQA

What does that have to do with anything I said?

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GodGate

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@thegodmadara: He was, but Galen was capable of pushing him to desperation, something that EU Vader is incapable of, so doesn't it make sense for him to be higher ranked than him?

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Lord_Tenebrous

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@killbilly:

You argued that this wasn't really Maul for some reason:  

"Maul is implied to be a creation of the Sith acolytes both by Chee and the acolytes in the comic itself. 'Who knows, it could have been a vision like Luke confronting Vader on Dagobah or just some sort of Sith illusion. Or a clone. Nothing's been determined as to what we are actually seeing' - Leeland Chee. 1. When Maul initially engages with Vader the acolytes tell him to stop reaching a hand out in his direction and he does so. Maul has no reason to obey such a command unless they have some sort of influence over him| Sidious echoes this refain further implying that it's some sort of artificial creation" 

When in fact, he is, for all intent and purposes, TPM Maul.

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KillBilly

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#47  Edited By KillBilly
@lord_tenebrous said:

@killbilly:

You argued that this wasn't really Maul for some reason:

When in fact, he is, for all intent and purposes, TPM Maul.

It isn't really Maul. The acolytes confirm this in the comic. The question the person asked in the tweet you posted asked if it's "basically Maul." And the author gave a brief one word affirmative.

That... Doesn't contradict anything I said in my post. :/

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CallMe_Sim

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#48  Edited By CallMe_Sim

I'd have Starkiller above Dooku in terms of raw force power tbh. Just my opinion though.

Inb4 "sToP wAnKiNg StArKiLLeR"

Also you could actually argue Pre-Suit Vader as a Tier 0 if you count his Mortis Amp....lol jk.

P.S Kylo Ren is above all of them because he beat Rey who is the strongest jedi ever lmaooooo

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El_mago

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#49  Edited By El_mago

@necromancer76: in terms of durability yes revan have the best feats however in terms of precog the likes of yoda,valk,etc surpassed him,krayt performed really well against the dark entity but even if that was the case he was getting his buttkicked and practically get one shotted by luke after he was trying to drain him,the midichlorian manipulation feat on a combative aspect its really tough and exhaustive to use.

on the topic i would put vader above tenebrous and maybe above revan too

also you need to take into consideration the pre suit self (KFV) a character who is literally confirmed to be on the same tier of rots sidious and yoda.

pd: where is lord nyax and also in the lost tribe of the Sith, I would only consider vol and taalon not only for their feats but also for being argumentatively speaking the most powerful of them even if taalon was merked by ben lol...

here is my personal draft btw:

1-sidious

2-valkorion

3-darish vol

4-lord nyax

5-caedus

6-vader/kfv

7-plagueis

8-revan

9-tenebrous

10-exar kun

11-dooku

12-nihilus

13-starkiller

14-karness murr

15-malak

16-darth wryrlok III

17-darth zannah

18-darth bane

19-lumiya

20-darth maul

21-darth malgus

22-vestara khai

23-emperor s wrath

24-darth nox

25-darth nyriss

26-traya

27-scourge

28-marr

29-maladi

30-nihl

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Necromancer76

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#50  Edited By Necromancer76

@el_mago:

-I believe you're confusing precognition with force vision in this regard. Revan is confirmed to be greater than Luke in precognition as seen by the latter's duel with Darth Caedus.

-Fair point on Krayt.

-Do we really know the limitations of midichlorian manipulation?

-I'd be happy to put Vader above Tenebrous if other people are in agreement.

-Check the list for KFV, I put him in Tier 0 because having Vader twice distorts the ranking. But I will acknowledge in the final draft that had he been on the list, he certainly would be in the top 5.

-Forgot about Nyax tbh.

-I included the other Lost Tribe members because they all essentially perform the same feat as Taalon, which is dueling GM Luke, so they are for the most part a single entity in that regard.