Thoughts on the Snyder vs. Whedon vs. WB. debate and "ruining Snyder's movie"

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TheAmazingSpidey

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Edited By TheAmazingSpidey
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How silly of us to expect a drama-free Justice League release? It seems WB manages to top themselves with each film having more BTS-drama than the last (with the exception of the sacred Wonder Woman). Justice League's BTS being the most frustrating, but also more confusing than anything. This is because Justice League is the hybrid of not one party, or two parties, but three. This gives us more options of where to point fingers, but even harder to know where to point. Whereas with Suicide Squad and Batman v. Superman, you could either point at either the director for making a bad movie, or the studio for giving the director 6 weeks to write a script and chopping up the film, Justice League can be blamed on either the studio (or more accurately, Warner Bros. CEO Kevin Tsujihara), the director and.... the other director. Who "ruined" the film? Who is responsible for the "failure" of the film? These questions have become a topic of debate. Let's run through the for for each argument.

1. Warner Bros are responsible for how Justice League turned out.

For this argument:

2. Joss Whedon is responsible for how Justice League turned out.

For this argument:

  • Sabotaged Snyder's vision.
  • He lightened up the colour palette.
  • He replaced Junkie XL.
  • His version of Superman was a total 180. We'll never see Snyder's Superman.
  • He sexualised Wonder Woman.

3. Zack Snyder is responsible for how Justice League turned out

For this argument:

  • He isn't a good filmmaker. Plain and simple.

...

Although Whedon and Warner Bros are separate, it's easy to treat them like one entity. It's easy to blame both for sabotaging Snyder's vision, which we're seeing right now - for deleting scenes, brightening up the colour palette, hiring an outdated composer who hasn't made a good score in over a decade, rearranging the order of scenes, reshooting. Reshoots. Reshoots. Reshoots. The Snyder-fan argument is that Snyder had a great film in his hands, but WB and Joss Whedon got their greedy, grubby fingerprints all over it and ruined it. It's easy to hold this belief. After all, Snyder is the sympathetic figure in the situation. It's easy for us to sympathise with the guy who wasn't able to finish his own movie, and in part, I DO agree that Warner Bros and Joss Whedon are the biggest perpetrators in the way Justice League turned out. After all, Snyder filmed scenes that involved Victor Stone pre-Cyborg, as we would've seen him as a young, ambitious football player and witness the accident ourselves. I believe it is idiotic of WB to remove integral scenes of characterisation which would've strengthened our sympathy and pathos for Cyborg, because they believed a few additional extra minutes of running time would hurt their ticket sales. What about Aquaman? Aquaman's mentor Vulko was nowhere to be seen in the film. These scenes would have gone a long way in fleshing out Aquaman and given him more weight as a character. Even general, smaller scenes such as the "suiting up" shots of the League shown in the trailers would've gone a long way in making the movie better paced and flow much better, as opposed to the stop/start pacing we got in the finished product. I do believe without an inkling of doubt that Warner Bros did the movie a disservice in terms of artistry and storytelling (and maybe even sales, seeing as the underwhelming opening is a product of the audience and critics thinking it is not a good film).

However, it seems whenever this happens - whenever WB chops up Snyder's films - many are quick to treat Snyder as a director who can do no wrong, believing he would've turned in a great film if not for the suits interfering with his artistry, forgetting that Snyder himself has directed a myriad of bad/mediocre films that had nothing to do with studio meddling (Sucker Punch, Man of Steel, Legends of The Guardians, even the Ultimate Cut of BvS is a divisive, mixed and heavily flawed film). Do I believe Jl would've been a better movie than WB not removed his scenes? Of course. How much better though? I can't know for sure, but given Snyder's track-records, it would have been a flawed, divisive (if less so) film with a myriad of other issues. I too am frustrated by WB interfering with the film, but I do not believe JL would've gone from a 5 to a 9 if they didn't.

People often forget that Snyder asked of Whedon's help with adding additional scenes before it was even decided Snyder would production: he asked of Whedon to write some extra scenes he wanted to include in the film. Hate on Whedon all you want, hate on him for sexualising Wonder Woman - his speciality is smaller dialogue and character interactions. There was a list online from an "insider" who stated the save one person exchange between Flash & Batman was Whedon. Regardless of whether you believe the list or not, as these smaller dialogues/interactions between character that help build character are uncharacteristic of Snyder, but commonly found in Whedon's work. The family which Superman and Flash save are also supposedly Whedon (and were not shown in the trailers until Whedon took over directorial responsibilities). This is a small scene that goes a long way in showing us the small, but meaningful impact these superheroes had on this family. Again, very characteristic of Whedon (Supes's CGI-face pretty much confirms that it's a Whedon scene). What I'm trying to illustrate is that Whedon is likely not responsible for "ruining" the film. His added character interactions gave the film a sense of depth and humour that would've been amiss of not there. Maybe he did do things that hurt the film, maybe he did ruin Snyder's vision: but as for as I'm concerned, all of these are mere speculations instead of anything concrete, the only solid thing being that he fired Junkie XL (which although unfortunate, has more to do with Whedon wanting to hire someone he was familiar with and had worked before. Elfman even described it as a last minute call). Whedon was running out of time. He didn't do it to sabotage Snyder's vision) and the fact he gave us the Superman who looks like goro from Mortal Kombat (courtesy of @gazool).

In conclusion, I believe that there is blame to go around. Snyder has time and again made divisive movies that don't bode well with audiences and critics, and I doubt JL would've been a critical darling if not for WB. However, it is true that WB did the film a disservice by removing these scenes, and that maybe they should've prioritised pivotal moments of characterisation ei. Cyborg's scenes, over Amy Adams commenting on how good Henry Cavill smells. I do hope that in the future, it'll become clearer and more definitive what was Whedon, what was Snyder, and what was WB. And I do hope we'll get to know what was in store for Cavill's Superman before Snyder left. Share your own thoughts below, and thanks for reading the thoughts of a bored, frustrated fan like me. Peace out.

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SaintWildcard

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All this shit is cus of how badly BvS turned out. He had complete control with BvS and because of the backlash this happened. He can only blame himself. Had BvS been a hit, they would have adapted what he had with JL almost entirely.

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TheAmazingSpidey

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#2  Edited By TheAmazingSpidey

@saintwildcard said:

All this shit is cus of how badly BvS turned out. He had complete control with BvS and because of the backlash this happened. He can only blame himself. Had BvS been a hit, they would have adapted what he had with JL almost entirely.

That's a good point, admittedly harsher than my take lol but still true. He messed up BvS big time and everyone has to pay for it, himself included. He virtually had full creative control with MoS as well.

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MonsterStomp

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@saintwildcard said:

All this shit is cus of how badly BvS turned out. He had complete control with BvS and because of the backlash this happened. He can only blame himself. Had BvS been a hit, they would have adapted what he had with JL almost entirely.

That's a good point, admittedly harsher than my take lol but still true. He messed up BvS big time and everyone has to pay for it, himself included. He virtually had full creative control with MoS as well.

Except MoS > BvS.

:P

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TheAmazingSpidey

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@theamazingspidey said:
@saintwildcard said:

All this shit is cus of how badly BvS turned out. He had complete control with BvS and because of the backlash this happened. He can only blame himself. Had BvS been a hit, they would have adapted what he had with JL almost entirely.

That's a good point, admittedly harsher than my take lol but still true. He messed up BvS big time and everyone has to pay for it, himself included. He virtually had full creative control with MoS as well.

Except MoS > BvS.

:P

Regardless of which you prefer (which by the way, you and Saint are both factually wrong xD), BvS was a bigger loss for WB.

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SaintWildcard

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@theamazingspidey: actually I think MoS turned out as good as it did cus Goyer and Nolan to keep him on check. Nolan left and Goyer got let go. I have to imagine that Goyer had a better script. The man gave us Zod, Terrio and his Oscar gave us Luthor

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SaintWildcard

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Galactic_1000

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MoS and BvS UE was great.

Zack isn't bad director

Yeah It's WB fault.

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Galactic_1000

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#8  Edited By Galactic_1000
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TheAmazingSpidey

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#9  Edited By TheAmazingSpidey

@saintwildcard said:

@theamazingspidey: actually I think MoS turned out as good as it did cus Goyer and Nolan to keep him on check. Nolan left and Goyer got let go. I have to imagine that Goyer had a better script. The man gave us Zod, Terrio and his Oscar gave us Luthor

Even though I enjoy BvS more than MoS (both are better than JL though), I agree with you that Goyer likely would've given us a better villain (Zod >>> Luthor, as you said). Did we ever find out why Goyer was fired? That might help gauge whether or not his script would have been much better.

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TheAmazingSpidey

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@saintwildcard: You're just salty because you wanted them to keep Superman's moustache. You wanted a Mexican Superman so bad.

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MonsterStomp

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Even though I enjoy BvS more than MoS (both are better than JL though).

*TRIGGERED*

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TheAmazingSpidey

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@theamazingspidey said:

Even though I enjoy BvS more than MoS (both are better than JL though).

*TRIGGERED*

It's almost as if I said that comment just to piss you off xD

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MonsterStomp

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The_Titan_Lord

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I see.

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Mrnoital

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All this shit is cus of how badly BvS turned out. He had complete control with BvS and because of the backlash this happened. He can only blame himself. Had BvS been a hit, they would have adapted what he had with JL almost entirely.

Snyder didn't get complete control on BvS

thats the entire reason they released the Ultimate version

cause they edited down his vision for the theatrical release

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Ianosm

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Genuinely think the biggest issue has been the rush to try 'catch up' to MCU when it wasnt necessary.

Essentially have brought out way too early the films that should have been the pinnacle of the DCEU namely BvS and JL. Also completely shot themselves in the foot by killing Supes so early and introducing doomsday so early when they both are peak events its hard to top that from now on and there are no real stakes now.

Imagine for a second if they had done this properly, imagine if MOS, WW, Aquaman and Flash (maybe cyborg or not) had solo films. Imagine if the Supes at the end of JL had been in there from the start and had built up a genuine fan love for this beacon of hope.

Now imagine they bring out BvS but not with Doomsday but Steppenwolf and yes its a clash between Batman and Supes over contrasting ideology and Steppenwolf would be ok in there as a generic baddie as he only serves to give B and S something to finally work together on. Oh and Supes does not die.

Now you go into JL with fleshed out chars from their own films and a Supes that people care about. And now you bring in Doomsday, a threat that Supes need the team to put down and now you can bring in the death of Superman with much more emotional weight.

Small changes but really think it would have made a huge difference

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adamTRMM

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@mrnoital said:

Snyder didn't get complete control on BvS

thats the entire reason they released the Ultimate version

cause they edited down his vision for the theatrical release

Should've been obvious at this point...

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SaintWildcard

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#19  Edited By SaintWildcard

@theamazingspidey said:

Even though I enjoy BvS more than MoS (both are better than JL though),

You got them rankings way off dude.

Did we ever find out why Goyer was fired? That might help gauge whether or not his script would have been much better.

He said a joke at a panel when questioned about MM. He said anyone that cared about MM was a virgin, or something along those lines. In the end they brought him back to work on GL, what a freaking waste of time

@theamazingspidey said:

@saintwildcard: You're just salty because you wanted them to keep Superman's moustache. You wanted a Mexican Superman so bad.

I don't care about the mustache, a beardwould have been cool though. I just posed the question because the CGI was terrible

@monsterstomp said:

@theamazingspidey: Almost. You 'bout to get decked.

@mrnoital said:

Snyder didn't get complete control on BvS

thats the entire reason they released the Ultimate version

cause they edited down his vision for the theatrical release

A) What kind of idiot films 3 hours of footage and things it's all gonna make it in the final cut? He's had to freaking cut back movies before, that's still on him.

B) He still had control on what he cut. so that's still on him.

C) The UC ain't much better, and it's still a miserable movie which is what most people hated about it. Only scene that truly mattered was the Senate Saving scene, but that's not enough to fix the entire movie. The added stuff regarding the Africa stuff didn't fix anything, the fact that the lady was in on it actually made it worse.

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Gazool

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@theamazingspidey: The other problem with this Movie was..

It completely forgot what it's core members were meant to be. Like who the hell makes Batman, the god-damned Batman irrelevant in a Justice league movie?

Like at the end of the day the only thing Batman did was..... provide transport? Like he was irrelevant basically. Remove Bruce, and the film would progress the Same basically. Diana could've assembled the team, she even knows about the Motherboxes and has a greater understanding of what steppenwolf is. Flash having one liners is ok for me ..But Batman? The god-damned Batman ? Like why? Isn't he supposed to be a super smart detective? If it we're anything like previous adaptations in any media, he could have basically been one step ahead of the wolf every time. He could've added something brilliant to the team, rather than being a wise cracking old man in a rubber suit.

Superman: sigh what can I say.... His CGI made him weird, His dialogue for some reason wasn't what it was meant to be. I also didn't like the scene with Batman after his resurrection. " Do you bleed" felt unnatural. Also the transition Superman took after Lois came in was too quick.

The movie for all it's purposes basically ignored it's own tagline" u can't save the world alone" at the end.

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TheAmazingSpidey

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@saintwildcard:

You got them rankings way off dude.

Nah. MoS had a myriad of problems you guys are blind to. Even more than BvS, but it's considered better because it's "self contained." Pfft.

The UC ain't much better

There here is key, and will go down in history as one of the only logical things you've ever said. The UC being better than the TC doesn't automatically make it a good film. Spider-Man 3 is pretty comprehensible storywise, but it's still dog shit.

He said a joke at a panel when questioned about MM. He said anyone that cared about MM was a virgin, or something along those lines. In the end they brought him back to work on GL, what a freaking waste of time

He's a dick who said crappy things about She-Hulk, but that's a weird reason to fire someone. Who gives a flying fox about what the writer of a movie said?

I don't care about the mustache, a beardwould have been cool though. I just posed the question because the CGI was terrible

I know, I know. I jest xD. I agree though, the CGI was terrible. Took me out of every scene.

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entropy_aegis

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They should've kept Nolan and Goyer on BVS but ultimately they put their eggs on the incompetent Snyder basket and the fickle Affleck basket.

At the very least they should have gotten Jonathan Nolan involved if Chris was too busy.

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the_stegman

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#23 the_stegman  Moderator

I liked JL.

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SaintWildcard

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@saintwildcard:

Nah. MoS had a myriad of problems you guys are blind to. Even more than BvS, but it's considered better because it's "self contained." Pfft.

To be fair, you have to have a very high IQ to understand Man of Steel. The themes are extremely subtle, and without a solid grasp of philosphy most of the themes will go over a typical viewer's head. There's also Zod's patriotic outlook, which is deftly woven into his being. The fans understand this stuff; they have the intellectual capacity to truly appreciate the depths of these themes, to realise that they're not just cool- they say something deep about LIFE. As a consequence people who dislike Man of Steel truly ARE idiots- of course they wouldn't appreciate. I'm smirking right now just imagining one of those addlepated simpletons scratching their heads in confusion as Zack Snyder's genius wit unfolds itself on their movie screens. What fools.. how I pity them.

JOkes aside, I did a freaking MoS Reboot, I know the film has problems, but it still hits for the fences and what it does right it does great. It outshines the flaws. You just hate that Zod is better than Ares. BvS just screws itself over, and no one in that film is likable except maybe Batman and Alfred.

There here is key, and will go down in history as one of the only logical things you've ever said. The UC being better than the TC doesn't automatically make it a good film. Spider-Man 3 is pretty comprehensible storywise, but it's still dog shit.

Superman is still unlikable. Lex's plan throws a wrench in the philosophical/political debate regarding Superman. Lois's role in this movie is still pointless and Wonder Woman is used badly. It may flow better, but all the problems are still there.

He's a dick who said crappy things about She-Hulk, but that's a weird reason to fire someone. Who gives a flying fox about what the writer of a movie said?

And like I said, they are bringing him back to work on GL anyway. It was all some outrageous shit he most likely said as a joke on a podcast, people are so freaking touchy.

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Galactic_1000

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But I also liked JL

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deactivated-5b2121a0a9a00

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This is what happens when you hire a less than average director to make your films for you.

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Petey_is_Spidey

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MoS and BvS UE was great.

Zack isn't bad director

Yeah It's WB fault.

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Petey_is_Spidey

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#29  Edited By Petey_is_Spidey

*Yawn* the same old tired out argument...

Also some of the stuff you have said is just demonstrably false, such as Snyder having complete control of BvS

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Eto

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HAIL Snyder

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Aros001

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@theamazingspidey: People often forget that Snyder asked of Whedon's help with adding additional scenes before it was even decided Snyder would production: he asked of Whedon to write some extra scenes he wanted to include in the film. Hate on Whedon all you want, hate on him for sexualising Wonder Woman - his speciality is smaller dialogue and character interactions. There was a list online from an "insider" who stated the save one person exchange between Flash & Batman was Whedon. Regardless of whether you believe the list or not, as these smaller dialogues/interactions between character that help build character are uncharacteristic of Snyder, but commonly found in Whedon's work.

THANK YOU! This is why I keep rolling my eyes at people demanding a Zack Snyder only cut of the movie. He himself was aware of his flaws and he took the steps to try and fix them in JL. Snyder is great with visuals, with action, with scope and ambition, but his characters do more often need more humanity to them and thus why Whedon got brought in, because that's what he's great at. Snyder can make you believe they're important, Whedon can make you feel that they are human.

I'm hoping there will be an extended cut, as even with the movie's problems I did still greatly enjoy myself, but I'm hoping it'll just be the film we got with many scenes added back in. There is no Snyder vs. Whedon battle going on anywhere except where the overreacting Marvel vs. DC fanboys and trolls are starting one. A lot of Justice League worked because of both of those guys.

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Magian

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I'll wait unti I get to watch the Snyder Cut. You never know, he might actually saved the movie.

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RavenVice01

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@theamazingspidey: I remember a while back that Snyder wanted to follow Nolan's direction about CBMS which included no post credit scenes. We have Whedon to thank for the post credit scenes. Hopefully WB will court Whedon for more projects. As for Snyder, my condolences for his daughter but his directing skills need to change.

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k4tzm4n

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#35  Edited By k4tzm4n  Moderator

All this shit is cus of how badly BvS turned out. He had complete control with BvS and because of the backlash this happened. He can only blame himself. Had BvS been a hit, they would have adapted what he had with JL almost entirely.

If he had complete control, the "ultimate edition" would've been in the theater, no?

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SaintWildcard

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@k4tzm4n said:
@saintwildcard said:

All this shit is cus of how badly BvS turned out. He had complete control with BvS and because of the backlash this happened. He can only blame himself. Had BvS been a hit, they would have adapted what he had with JL almost entirely.

If he had complete control, the "ultimate edition" would've been in the theater, no?

Just gonna copy paste my response to the same type of reply

A) What kind of idiot films 3 hours of footage and things it's all gonna make it in the final cut? He's had to freaking cut back movies before, that's still on him.

B) He still had control on what he cut. so that's still on him.

C) The UC ain't much better, and it's still a miserable movie which is what most people hated about it. Only scene that truly mattered was the Senate Saving scene, but that's not enough to fix the entire movie. The added stuff regarding the Africa stuff didn't fix anything, the fact that the lady was in on it actually made it worse.

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k4tzm4n

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#37  Edited By k4tzm4n  Moderator

@saintwildcard said:
@k4tzm4n said:
@saintwildcard said:

All this shit is cus of how badly BvS turned out. He had complete control with BvS and because of the backlash this happened. He can only blame himself. Had BvS been a hit, they would have adapted what he had with JL almost entirely.

If he had complete control, the "ultimate edition" would've been in the theater, no?

Just gonna copy paste my response to the same type of reply

A) What kind of idiot films 3 hours of footage and things it's all gonna make it in the final cut? He's had to freaking cut back movies before, that's still on him.

B) He still had control on what he cut. so that's still on him.

C) The UC ain't much better, and it's still a miserable movie which is what most people hated about it. Only scene that truly mattered was the Senate Saving scene, but that's not enough to fix the entire movie. The added stuff regarding the Africa stuff didn't fix anything, the fact that the lady was in on it actually made it worse.

A) Why do you feel the need to sling insults at him instead of constructive criticism? If you had the chance to talk to him about his films, would you call him an idiot or express yourself differently? No need for such vitriol. If you're that passionate about Superman, let his ways inspire the way you engage in debates :) Also, the additional scenes are very important because they flesh out the opening conspiracy, as well as the rest of Superman's story.

B) You have this knowledge because you're an executive at the studio? ;)

C) I'm well aware about how you feel about the film. That's not my point. Point is, given full control, I imagine we would have the "extended edition" in theaters.

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Kingyang

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Everything with funny lip Supes is Whedon. Quippy bat is whedon. Stupid Steppenwolf death is whhedon(He was suppose to be beheaded i heard). Stupid russian family is whedon. JL vs supes is whedon.

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k4tzm4n

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#39 k4tzm4n  Moderator

@kingyang said:

Everything with funny lip Supes is Whedon. Quippy bat is whedon. Stupid Steppenwolf death is whhedon(He was suppose to be beheaded i heard). Stupid russian family is whedon. JL vs supes is whedon.

I heard JL vs Superman (some Superman lines and Batman's "bleeding" line aside) was Snyder but the follow-up was different?

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deactivated-5b59f8ae5ebaf

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whedon only did like 10 percent its still a synder movie

now the thing i hate is i told dceu fanboys before this whether its shit or good its all gonna be on snyder

ironic how i told some fanboy joss is taking over and he said ''hes not doing shit except reshoots''

now they wanna blame him speaks alot about the fanbase

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Kingyang

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@k4tzm4n: Whedon must have changed it.

Beginning cell phone footage was also Whedon.

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RabumAlal

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Whedon probably improved the movie for all we know.

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k4tzm4n

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#43 k4tzm4n  Moderator
@kingyang said:

@k4tzm4n: Whedon must have changed it.

Beginning cell phone footage was also Whedon.

I liked that addition. Didn't notice the bad CGI lip like others did, though.

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Kingyang

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@k4tzm4n: It bothered the hell out of me lol. But everything with the lip is whedon.

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@k4tzm4n said:

A) Why do you feel the need to sling insults at him instead of constructive criticism? If you had the chance to talk to him about his films, would you call him an idiot or express yourself differently? No need for such vitriol. Also, the addition scenes are very important because they flesh out the opening conspiracy, as well as the rest of Superman's story.

B) You have this knowledge because you're an executive at the studio? ;)

C) I'm well aware about how you feel about the film. That's not my point. Point is, given full control, I imagine we would have the "extended edition" in theaters.

A) The packaging of my words doesn't lessen the truth in it. He's lived through it before, almost every movie has lived through it before. His movie isn't the first one to get cuts for being too long, and it won't be the last. To make a 3 hour long movie where every scene is required for his vision to work is silly on his part. The conspiracy part makes the movie worse, it dumbs down the political and philosophical aspects of the movie to just one crazy guy screwing with him. So no, they weren't important. That's not even what Snyder promised.

B) https://www.cinemablend.com/new/Why-Batman-V-Superman-Theatrical-Release-Was-Trimmed-Down-120647.html

He made the cuts himself to cut down on time for theaters

C) FINE! Jeez! Full-ish control! At the end of the day the problems most people had with the movie we're still in the UC. Mopey Superman, Terrible Lex, Dark and Grim! That's not even counting the actual story problems I pointed out earlier, but just the ones the common movie goer had.

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silent_bomber

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#46  Edited By silent_bomber

Having multiple writers and or Directors on a movie is never a great idea anyway as far as I'm concerned.

When you have a lot of people with differing visions for the film it often ends up disjointed.

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k4tzm4n

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#47 k4tzm4n  Moderator

@k4tzm4n said:

A) Why do you feel the need to sling insults at him instead of constructive criticism? If you had the chance to talk to him about his films, would you call him an idiot or express yourself differently? No need for such vitriol. Also, the addition scenes are very important because they flesh out the opening conspiracy, as well as the rest of Superman's story.

B) You have this knowledge because you're an executive at the studio? ;)

C) I'm well aware about how you feel about the film. That's not my point. Point is, given full control, I imagine we would have the "extended edition" in theaters.

A) The packaging of my words doesn't lessen the truth in it. He's lived through it before, almost every movie has lived through it before. His movie isn't the first one to get cuts for being too long, and it won't be the last. To make a 3 hour long movie where every scene is required for his vision to work is silly on his part. The conspiracy part makes the movie worse, it dumbs down the political and philosophical aspects of the movie to just one crazy guy screwing with him. So no, they weren't important. That's not even what Snyder promised.

B) https://www.cinemablend.com/new/Why-Batman-V-Superman-Theatrical-Release-Was-Trimmed-Down-120647.html

He made the cuts himself to cut down on time for theaters

C) FINE! Jeez! Full-ish control! At the end of the day the problems most people had with the movie we're still in the UC. Mopey Superman, Terrible Lex, Dark and Grim! That's not even counting the actual story problems I pointed out earlier, but just the ones the common movie goer had.

C) That's the only point that matters because that was, well, the entire point of my response. You agree that if he had total control, we'd have the extended cut in theaters. :)

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Magian

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The opening scene with Superman was nice. Wish there was some kind of follow-up to it though. We never got to see his answer.

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Outside_85

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#50  Edited By FangDaNerd

WB is the problem.