OT there is evidence that theyre the same when spectre first met it he didn't know what the source was probably because he isn't omniscient but he had heard of it either way when he first went to it he states he sensed Michaels power in it then he asked the source the mystery of god an the source showed him the mystery an spectre became one with the universe. But it nearly drove him mad.
Other evidence is when chronos stole some of the presences power he sensed the godwave expanding inside which is commonly associated with the source an in another story fate states he can sense the story in heaven. So there is evidence but I believe there is evidence to state otherwise its all author dependent
@au_141:No they are ot supposed to the the same at least not in Current Canon, they are two unrelated entities.This is showcased even in the Lucifer series, when for example, Lucifer, who had a hand in making all of The Presence's creation, has no idea of what the Source is and couldn't ever perceive its true nature:
In Kirby's New Gods series where the Source was first introduced, we see it as a mysterious and primal force, strongly connected to the New Gods and their powers, it has none of the religious themes and ideas that surround the Presence.
New Gods have absolute no relation to the Angels, or Demons, or none of The Presence's creation, yet they are said to be platonic ideas (primal and fundamental forms of the world, transcendent of reality)
Who brought forth the New Gods? The Source. It is a mysterious metaphysical concept that has pretty much always been a mystery in DC's continuity. Many writers and comics have different views of what the source is.
Here it is cited as the creator of the DC Universe.
This is from JLA 2018 Issue 23, written by Scott Snyder. This is what appears to be another reference to The Source. Here it is an unknown entity or force beyond the Monitors, multiversal creators, and is probably also where their powers originate from.
Many times the Source is also equated to the Source Wall, which is also widly inconsistent and varies in position and functions to fit whatever purpose the writer wants it to have, but it is consistently represented as the edge of all creation.
Here is Grant Morrison, another writer of DC's view on it:
Grant Morrison says that in his cosmology The Source is the same entity as his God (who is not the Presence, it's a being called Monitor Mind or Overvoid). This is important, since Morrison wrote The Multiversity series, which explains the nature of DC's multiverse, and he also wrote the draft for DC's official cosmology map. The thing is, the map also says that the Source and The Overvoid are two different beings.
Confusing, isn' it? It is like another user here said, different writers have different views about what The Souce is, but I can do a rundown on the similarities and compare it to The Presence
The Souce: Primal concept, entity, or force, it is related to the New Gods and devoid of any religious themes surrounding it. Unrelated to angels. True nature is unclear, but at least according to one history, it made the "DC Universe"
The Presence: Being that is surrounded by religious motifs, created the angels, demons, etc... Has no relation to the New Gods. His nature is pretty clear to me, honestly. You could say that he made the "Vertigo Multiverse"
So yeah, two completely different characters that have almost nothing to do with each other. Althought in all honesty, The Source is more of a storytelling device than anything.
So would the Presence and it’s creation reside within what Sources dominion ? Especially with Morrison’s statement equating it to the Monitor mind.
If so, would Lucifer and his ilk play a similar role in a cosmic sense to the (True) New Gods and other pantheons since they both reside within the Godsphere? By true here, I mean Morrison’s interpretation of the New Gods in FC before the New 52. After FC and Final Crisis there essence seems to be split as evidenced by the New Gods of Kirbyworld and the New 52 Gods.
So would the Presence and it’s creation reside within what Sources dominion ? Especially with Morrison’s statement equating it to the Monitor mind.
I believe Presence and its creation reside at the Sphere of Gods (still on the realm inside the Source Wall), but as the Presence is undeniably a special kind of god, you could argue he shares the same position as Multiverse Creators such as Perpetua.
If so, would Lucifer and his ilk play a similar role in a cosmic sense to the (True) New Gods and other pantheons since they both reside within the Godsphere? By true here, I mean Morrison’s interpretation of the New Gods in FC before the New 52. After FC and Final Crisis there essence seems to be split as evidenced by the New Gods of Kirbyworld and the New 52 Gods.
The true form of the New Gods are basically abstract fundamental concepts. The Endless, Lucifer and his ilk have been said to be either supreme embodiments of concepts or concept creators too, so I believe in the cosmic sense they would indeed have similar functions.
This also makes me wonder about the nature of those reside within the Godsphere and the Monitors. Particularly Destiny...
Gallery
In the first image is a sketch of Morrision's Multiversity map. In it we can see that the hooded figure at the top of the sketch appears to be Destiny.
If this idea holds for the official version of the map as shown in the third image, then it seems that Book of Destiny does seem to include everything. But this seems to beg the following questions...
Is the Book of Destiny the same as the Book of Infinite Pages (As shown in Final Crisis?)
What implications does Destiny's position bear on the rest of the DC cosmological hierarchy especially regarding the Endless and Lucifer's kin?
Perhaps the biggest question is whether being a "lower" level of the Orrery means you necessarily less important than someone above?
For instance, the fact that Lucifer was able to travel to edge of everything a perceive the Source which is something that to my knowledge most other entities in the Godsphere and the Monitor Sphere can not achieve.
I have also heard the Lucy is not bound by Destiny so what would this indicate about his power?
Likewise, where would Perpertua be on the map? Since she created the multiverse what would be her relationship to the Endless?
Lastly, with the ideas of multiple multiverses like the one consumed by the Empty Hand, Lucifer's Creation, and those created by the Supercelestials like Perpertua, does this imply that there is a Source Wall between Multiverses just like there is between univereses?
Number 1 no the books are different 2 things to note destinys book is chained to him an cannot be separated from him 2ndly the book of infinite pages tells the story of mandrakk an the monitors.
According to the monitor fans the guy at the top of the map is fate as in Dr fate not Destiny at all who cannot go beyond the god sphere. According to most sources Destinys book holds all of existence in it his realm is the highest peak in existence an the multiverse resides in his book with him obviously standing outside. I don't think it's changed much on the hierarchy Destiny is still the most powerful endless. And he is hinted at being above most angels. As lucifer told nelos that he was surprised that melos wouldn't dare mess with him but he would one of the endless.
To answer your next question its a little bit tricky according to monitor fans lucifer has no idea what the source is nor has he been beyond it. However if you read the scan it implies he does know what it is but doesn't care. An according to that story he has infact went beyond the source into the void beyond. So they believe its not the true source wall.
Nextly your right lucifer left destinys book he escaped his role in things he is his own free man he beat the basanos. The implications of this the dude is hella yes pun intended powerful.
According to Scott her realm the 6th dimension would be somewhere on top of creation he described it perfectly 1 dimension is a dot 2 is a line 3 is what he we see everyday 4 is time 5 is imagination an 6 is where she does her thang. As for her relationship with the endless mostly unknown dream tells a story of the multiverse coming into being an the monitor brothers an barbatos. But other than that it's really not been explored.
I suppose that's possible but according to monitors fans it all hypertime lanes that separate them hope this helps yeah
Is the Book of Destiny the same as the Book of Infinite Pages (As shown in Final Crisis?)
No, that book tells the story of the Overvoid until the Final Crisis. It was found on limbo and has no direct relation to Destiny. Destiny's book has no existance outside of him from what I remember, that book was found completely abandoned in limbo, a meta space that Destiny has no authority whatsoever.
What implications does Destiny's position bear on the rest of the DC cosmological hierarchy especially regarding the Endless and Lucifer's kin?
None, they would still be bound to the sphere of gods.
Perhaps the biggest question is whether being a "lower" level of the Orrery means you necessarily less important than someone above?
Not necessarily, some beings like Metron have their abilities function independent of cosmology (he can see all of the story of DC Comics, even from structures above him)
For instance, the fact that Lucifer was able to travel to edge of everything a perceive the Source which is something that to my knowledge most other entities in the Godsphere and the Monitor Sphere can not achieve.
Nah, travelling to the Source does not necessarily translate to power if Brainiac was able to travel to the edge of it and perceive more of its nature than Lucifer did.
I have also heard the Lucy is not bound by Destiny so what would this indicate about his power?
He is probably stronger than the Endless, that is for sure.
Likewise, where would Perpertua be on the map? Since she created the multiverse what would be her relationship to the Endless?
Perpetua lies in the realm of the Sixth Dimension, beyond imagination and the realm of impossibility itself. She lies on a highter plane of the orrey than the beings of the Sphere of Gods, but below Nil and the Overvoid.
Lastly, with the ideas of multiple multiverses like the one consumed by the Empty Hand, Lucifer's Creation, and those created by the Supercelestials like Perpertua, does this imply that there is a Source Wall between Multiverses just like there is between univereses?
Yes, that would make sense. We already know there are an infinite amount of multiverses (as many as DC wants). That would explain why there are so much different versions of the Source Wall. Snyder already said he is creating new mythos for DC, so his cosmology isn't definitive.
@y3kthunder: @sagathelegend:Thanks for the Twitter screenshot that clears alot of things up. And you guys input makes a lot of sense.
Now I'm wondering about the nature of Lucy's creation and the position of the Imps in cosmology.
My first question being concerns where Lucifer's creation is relative to the Orrery? My first guess is that there is two options:
The first being that Lucifer's creation must be below the Sphere of Gods and parallel to the Orrery of Worlds.
His creation is somehow embedded in the Sphere of Gods.
My reasoning behind being that it wouldn't make sense that Lucy could create something beyond the Godsphere given his nature as discussed earlier. But with either of these conclusions, it seems that the Gods and everything above them must be unique to each of these creations which seems confusing so maybe I have made a mistake somewhere. If I am correct, this implies there is only one Sphere of Gods despite there being multiple multiverses. What do you guys think?
It seems that the sons of Perpertua reside above the Imps, yet they are clearly above everything in the Orrery. So would the neccesarily reside in the Sphere of the Gods? If so, what realm would they be in?
@au_141: That scan is fake, I and a couple more debaters already have searched everywhere on twitter and could not find it, not even the retweets that should be there. Another user here on CV confirmed that said scan was made by a guy called thebestdebater, a Google+ debater that attempted to prove the Void, the Source and The Presence were the same.
Ok lemme explain the vertigo cosmology I little bit so first you have the infinite nothingness that is the void. That holds all things you have the destinys realm which is the peak of existence. Then possibly limbo it is mentioned in vertigo just not its placement. Then you have the mansions of silence an the silver city you have the source or source wall at the edge of the multiverse the dreaming the faeries apokolipse an the new gods as darkseid and his race have either been mentioned you have the infinite branching multiverse an you have hell way on the other side. Lucifers creation is outside what his father made.
The monitor brothers yes their true form would reside in thw 6th dimension with there mother above the imps
Yes, it is heavily implied that there is only one Sphere of Gods in Creation, sibce from what I remember, The Fouth World was completely unnafected by the events of Crisis on Infinite Earths (that is inconsistent given the power levels, but apparently it is true).
Sons of Perpetua (The Monitors) also reside on the Sixth Dimension, but they connection to it relies on Perpetua:
They all reform and exist in the Sixth Dimension, which exists outside of the Sphere of Gods, beyond it. They are all bound to Perpetua since she created them, I woulf say that in the same way the brothers are connected to the Presence.
@au_141: Wow, I will try to respond the rest later, but Michael talked to the artist that drew that map and he said Destiny is not on the top.
That's not stated anywhere in this thread.
He said:
"Bear in mind, this is the first sketch, and was refined. Don't read too much into it."
- BUT the problem is, Destiny is still at the top even in the refined map. In fact, there are NO versions of this map in which he isn't beyond the multiverse.
- The only thing that can be taken to imply it's not Destiny is his statement:
"I think you're taking the position of Destiny on the map a little too literally. Think of those sea creatures on old maps. Theyr'e not actually in that very position, at that very size."
- You COULD extrapolate from this that Destiny might not really be there, but if we're using that logic, why not apply it to all the map? Why take any position on the map too literally? What if other beings and realms pictured aren't really where they appear to be?
- After all, look at the Endless. Death is SUPPOSED to be limited to the SoTG, yet she's the only being who has travelled beyond DC verse to Marvel and she on panel, has claimed (and will claim) the entire DC multiverse.
- Also, This would have been validated had refined versions of the map made that alteration, but they didn't. No one at any point, ever thought to place Destiny where he was "supposed" to be after all these years??? Not one correction.
He also says:
"Destiny is just metaphorically above everything, recording. That he overlaps certain areas is less important."
- Destiny of the Endless is Destiny, literally and metaphorically. He is above everything and and recording everything.. So if you want to argue that it's not him literally up there, who is it? FATE? Because the thing is, that's just another name for Destiny. I have YET to find any quote of Morrison actually stating that there is a metconcept being of FATE at the top of the map who just so happens to look EXACTLY like Destiny. I've only seen people reference this, pull up a clip referencing a disucssion from the 90's, and then just intepret it in whatever way suites their argument. I have also not seen a single metaconceptual being named Fate with these aesthetics, mentioned or seen anywhere in the DC comics.
If Destiny has been somehow replaced or retconned into this Fate, then Death's feat in B.O.M. puts her well beyond anything in any comicverse.
@au_141: Wow, I will try to respond the rest later, but Michael talked to the artist that drew that map and he said Destiny is not on the top.
That's not stated anywhere in this thread.
He said:
"Bear in mind, this is the first sketch, and was refined. Don't read too much into it."
- BUT the problem is, Destiny is still at the top even in the refined map. In fact, there are NO versions of this map in which he isn't beyond the multiverse.
The artist is talking about the sketch and the official map, did you even read it correctly? The conversation is all about the Multiversity Map, it is stated in the first tweet.
Correction: Thre isn't any version of the map where Destiny of The Endless is on the top, you are making that up.
- The only thing that can be taken to imply it's not Destiny is his statement:
"I think you're taking the position of Destiny on the map a little too literally. Think of those sea creatures on old maps. Theyr'e not actually in that very position, at that very size."
- You COULD extrapolate from this that Destiny might not really be there, but if we're using that logic, why not apply it to all the map? Why take any position on the map too literally? What if other beings and realms pictured aren't really where they appear to be?
Lol, he is only talking about the drawn part of the map, there s written and detailed summary right next to the map that you are still ignoring completely because it says the Endless are below the Monitor Sphere.
Also he is only talking abiut Destiny comparing it to a sea creature, that says nothing about the positions of locations right on the map.
- After all, look at the Endless. Death is SUPPOSED to be limited to the SoTG, yet she's the only being who has travelled beyond DC verse to Marvel and she on panel, has claimed (and will claim) the entire DC multiverse.
So what? The Sphere of Gods is beyond the regular DC Multiverse, nohing you have said so far presents any proof she is beyond the DC Multiverse. Travel to Marvel lol? Many characters have travelled to there are on the crossovers are canon according to Morrison.
Also Death is bad example, since she is not even the ultimate incarnation of Death in the DC universe.
- Also, This would have been validated had refined versions of the map made that alteration, but they didn't. No one at any point, ever thought to place Destiny where he was "supposed" to be after all these years??? Not one correction.
The author clearly says Destiny is not above everything and is only metaphorically above it. Here you even him yourself:
"Destiny is just metaphorically above everything, recording. That he overlaps certain areas is less important."
He also says:
"Destiny is just metaphorically above everything, recording. That he overlaps certain areas is less important."
- Destiny of the Endless is Destiny, literally and metaphorically. He is above everything and and recording everything.. So if you want to argue that it's not him literally up there, who is it? FATE? Because the thing is, that's just another name for Destiny. I have YET to find any quote of Morrison actually stating that there is a metconcept being of FATE at the top of the map who just so happens to look EXACTLY like Destiny. I've only seen people reference this, pull up a clip referencing a disucssion from the 90's, and then just intepret it in whatever way suites their argument. I have also not seen a single metaconceptual being named Fate with these aesthetics, mentioned or seen anywhere in the DC comics.
Doesn't matter who it is on the top. Destiny of The Endless never appeared in any DC Cosmology comic, he didn't appear on The Multiversity, didn't appear in Final Crisis. You are making him have a relevance he doesn't have. Look exactly like Destiny? You just proved you didn't even read the whole thing.
Note that only here does Destiny have eyes.
Now try to find that here:
This isn't supposed to be Destiny of the Endless and he is only supposed to be metaphorically there. That is not me saying that, it is the guy that made the map saying it.
If Destiny has been somehow replaced or retconned into this Fate, then Death's feat in B.O.M. puts her well beyond anything in any comicverse.
Not sure what feat you are talking about thought. Destiny was never retconned into this Fate, he simply isn't him. Try finding Destiny of the Endless in The Multiversity when all the Endless are stated to be on the Sphere of Gods and then we can talk.
Uh the endless are what theyre in the most literal sense an yes destiny does have eyes he is just blind so blind that he sees better than anything else....damn thats blind an for those curious I already posted the scan of destiny being outside the multiverse in my RT on him an op posted a scan of destiny that had to do with the monitors an in the scan he is called fate
The artist is talking about the sketch and the official map, did you even read it correctly? The conversation is all about the Multiversity Map, it is stated in the first tweet.
Correction: Thre isn't any version of the map where Destiny of The Endless is on the top, you are making that up.
I did read it correctly, Michael asked Hughes about the actual Multiversity Map, and used the drawings of the earlier version of the map (the image in the actual thread) as a basis for his question. Both were referenced which is why I mentioned both the refined version as well as the actual completed map...and nothing about the position of Destiny has changed since he is still at the top in the current map. Michael asked were the lines drawn to imply positions regarding Heaven and Destiny, and Hughes said he wasn't sure what Michael meant, because it was an earlier sketch that had been refined...and the position of Destiny is still in the Overvoid in that refined version.
Making it up?
Bruh who is the hooded figure in the OM then? Hughs LITERALLY says "Destiny" by his name. He doesn't call that hooded figure with the book by ANY other names exept Destiny in this entire thread. The only person who tries to call him a metaconceptual "Fate' is Michael. Hughes didn't even agree with him. So you tell me where this "Fate" character is in Multiversity. Give me a link to a Metaconceptual character named Fate in DC wiki and then prove that he dresses like Destiny. I'll wait.
Lol, he is only talking about the drawn part of the map, there s written and detailed summary right next to the map that you are still ignoring completely because it says the Endless are below the Monitor Sphere.
Also he is only talking abiut Destiny comparing it to a sea creature, that says nothing about the positions of locations right on the map.
I'm not ignoring anything buddy. You're not understanding me. Frst off, the summary expresses where the Endless are housed, not where they are limited to. That's why I have you an example of Death being able to completely leave the DC verse in the first place. To argue that somehow the Endless are limited to the SOTG is to argue that beings in the orrerry are limited to that as well, which is completely false. Also, my argument is that if you want to dispute position based upon ignoring placement in the actual refined map, then we can do that for any of the beings there, not just Destiny.
No, he used the seas creatures as a metaphor to compare Destiny's position and location on the map. He's saying they don't always correlate. That can be taken in favor of or against your argument.
"I think you're taking the positionof Destiny on the map a little too literally. Think of those sea creatures on old maps. Theyr'e not actually in that very position, at that very size."
So what? The Sphere of Gods is beyond the regular DC Multiverse, nohing you have said so far presents any proof she is beyond the DC Multiverse. Travel to Marvel lol? Many characters have travelled to there are on the crossovers are canon according to Morrison.
Also Death is bad example, since she is not even the ultimate incarnation of Death in the DC universe.
Death in Books of Magic claims the entirety of the Multiverse in the future, including "Fate" if you want to argue that. Marvel is also not within the Multiverse and Death has claied universes and creation beyond DC in the void. Death appearing in the Hulk was in a Marvel story arc so it wsn't a crossover at all. Try again.
Death isn't an incarnation. That's your first problem. She is the end all, be all personification of the concept in DC comics. There is not a single being above her regarding her title. You are only arguing this because of that quote referencing the 90's dsipute when DC writers wanted to use DoTE as a mere aspect of Death, (assuming she was akin to Nekron or the Black Racer) not knowing that Giaman created her as the ulimate Death. He corrected them back in the 90's sine they need permission to use her. That text that you are going to try to use has NOTHING to do with there being a superior incarnation since A) Death isn't an incarnation at all, she IS Death and B)
Provide a single scan of who this would be superior incarnation is. I don't want a quote you can take out of context. Prove to me this being exists by giving me a charatcer profile on DC or a being in any of Morrison's run. I'll wait. Make certain it says "The superior incarnation of Death even beyond The Endless" or anything close.
The author clearly says Destiny is not above everything and is only metaphorically above it. Here you even him yourself:
Exactly...DESTINY. Be it metpahorically or literally, it is DESTINY. NOTHING about Fate or anyone else. So I ask you again, who is in the OM?
Doesn't matter who it is on the top. Destiny of The Endless never appeared in any DC Cosmology comic, he didn't appear on The Multiversity, didn't appear in Final Crisis. You are making him have a relevance he doesn't have. Look exactly like Destiny? You just proved you didn't even read the whole thing.
Ignorance. Ignorance. Ignorance. GOOGLE is your friend. Destiny was a DC character BEFORE the Vertigo imprint even was, just as Dream was. He has a longer history in the DC Universe than Morrison does. But the fact that you even said this tells me everything. You don't even read comics if you think what you said makes sense.
Destiny has eyes.
Destiny has history in the DC Universe PRIOR to Vertigo.
The artist is talking about the sketch and the official map, did you even read it correctly? The conversation is all about the Multiversity Map, it is stated in the first tweet.
Correction: Thre isn't any version of the map where Destiny of The Endless is on the top, you are making that up.
I did read it correctly, Michael asked Hughes about the actual Multiversity Map, and used the drawings of the earlier version of the map (the image in the actual thread) as a basis for his question. Both were referenced which is why I mentioned both the refined version as well as the actual completed map...and nothing about the position of Destiny has changed since he is still at the top in the current map. Michael asked were the lines drawn to imply positions regarding Heaven and Destiny, and Hughes said he wasn't sure what Michael meant, because it was an earlier sketch that had been refined...and the position of Destiny is still in the Overvoid in that refined version.
Making it up?
Bruh who is the hooded figure in the OM then? Hughs LITERALLY says "Destiny" by his name. He doesn't call that hooded figure with the book by ANY other names exept Destiny in this entire thread. The only person who tries to call him a metaconceptual "Fate' is Michael. Hughes didn't even agree with him. So you tell me where this "Fate" character is in Multiversity. Give me a link to a Metaconceptual character named Fate in DC wiki and then prove that he dresses like Destiny. I'll wait.
Lol, he is only talking about the drawn part of the map, there s written and detailed summary right next to the map that you are still ignoring completely because it says the Endless are below the Monitor Sphere.
Also he is only talking abiut Destiny comparing it to a sea creature, that says nothing about the positions of locations right on the map.
I'm not ignoring anything buddy. You're not understanding me. Frst off, the summary expresses where the Endless are housed, not where they are limited to. That's why I have you an example of Death being able to completely leave the DC verse in the first place. To argue that somehow the Endless are limited to the SOTG is to argue that beings in the orrerry are limited to that as well, which is completely false. Also, my argument is that if you want to dispute position based upon ignoring placement in the actual refined map, then we can do that for any of the beings there, not just Destiny.
No, he used the seas creatures as a metaphor to compare Destiny's position and location on the map. He's saying they don't always correlate. That can be taken in favor of or against your argument.
"I think you're taking the positionof Destiny on the map a little too literally. Think of those sea creatures on old maps. Theyr'e not actually in that very position, at that very size."
So what? The Sphere of Gods is beyond the regular DC Multiverse, nohing you have said so far presents any proof she is beyond the DC Multiverse. Travel to Marvel lol? Many characters have travelled to there are on the crossovers are canon according to Morrison.
Also Death is bad example, since she is not even the ultimate incarnation of Death in the DC universe.
Death in Books of Magic claims the entirety of the Multiverse in the future, including "Fate" if you want to argue that. Marvel is also not within the Multiverse and Death has claied universes and creation beyond DC in the void. Death appearing in the Hulk was in a Marvel story arc so it wsn't a crossover at all. Try again.
Death isn't an incarnation. That's your first problem. She is the end all, be all personification of the concept in DC comics. There is not a single being above her regarding her title. You are only arguing this because of that quote referencing the 90's dsipute when DC writers wanted to use DoTE as a mere aspect of Death, (assuming she was akin to Nekron or the Black Racer) not knowing that Giaman created her as the ulimate Death. He corrected them back in the 90's sine they need permission to use her. That text that you are going to try to use has NOTHING to do with there being a superior incarnation since A) Death isn't an incarnation at all, she IS Death and B)
Provide a single scan of who this would be superior incarnation is. I don't want a quote you can take out of context. Prove to me this being exists by giving me a charatcer profile on DC or a being in any of Morrison's run. I'll wait. Make certain it says "The superior incarnation of Death even beyond The Endless" or anything close.
The author clearly says Destiny is not above everything and is only metaphorically above it. Here you even him yourself:
Exactly...DESTINY. Be it metpahorically or literally, it is DESTINY. NOTHING about Fate or anyone else. So I ask you again, who is in the OM?
Doesn't matter who it is on the top. Destiny of The Endless never appeared in any DC Cosmology comic, he didn't appear on The Multiversity, didn't appear in Final Crisis. You are making him have a relevance he doesn't have. Look exactly like Destiny? You just proved you didn't even read the whole thing.
Ignorance. Ignorance. Ignorance. GOOGLE is your friend. Destiny was a DC character BEFORE the Vertigo imprint even was, just as Dream was. He has a longer history in the DC Universe than Morrison does. But the fact that you even said this tells me everything. You don't even read comics if you think what you said makes sense.
Destiny has eyes.
Destiny has history in the DC Universe PRIOR to Vertigo.
@y3kthunder@jamespacker@rijehu Also, funny how Saga says that Destiny has no influence over the Monitor Sphere, even when Roughes (The artist) said that he is recording the events of the Monitor Sphere in the exact same sentence where Roughes APPAREANTLY said that Destiny has no influence over the Monitor Sphere. Monitor supporters definetely did a good job!
Roughes just meant that Destiny does not reside over the monitor sphere. Like I said THOUSAND TIMES, he resides in the sphere of gods, but that does literally not mean that Destiny is limited to the sphere of gods, lol.
Me, Rijehu, Etriel and Sungsam have adressed that thousand times.
@y3kthunder@jamespacker@rijehu Also, funny how Saga says that Destiny has no influence over the Monitor Sphere, even when Roughes (The artist) said that he is recording the events of the Monitor Sphere in the exact same sentence where Roughes APPAREANTLY said that Destiny has no influence over the Monitor Sphere. Monitor supporters definetely did a good job!
Here let me quote him for you:
"Destiny is just metaphorically above everything, recording. That he overlaps certain areas is less important."
The key word here is metaphorically. He isn't literslly up there. This here just proves you haven't even read the scans properly. Congrats, epic debunking here.
Roughes just meant that Destiny does not reside over the monitor sphere. Like I said THOUSAND TIMES, he resides in the sphere of gods, but that does literally not mean that Destiny is limited to the sphere of gods, lol.
Proof he doesn't or go away. Spoilers: You can't.
Me, Rijehu, Etriel and Sungsam have adressed that thousand times.
You? You all have adressed nothing. Etriel based half of his arguments on a fake scan and varios out of context scans are you really going to bring up someone like that here lol
Also, funny how Saga says that Destiny has no influence over the Monitor Sphere, even when Roughes (The artist) said that he is recording the events of the Monitor Sphere in the exact same sentence where Roughes APPAREANTLY said that Destiny has no influence over the Monitor Sphere. Monitor supporters definetely did a good job!
Here let me quote him for you:
"Destiny is just metaphorically above everything, recording. That he overlaps certain areas is less important."
The key word here is metaphorically. He isn't literslly up there. This here just proves you haven't even read the scans properly. Congrats, epic debunking here.
I don't think you read your scans. If he hadn't had any influence on the Monitor Sphere at all, Roughes wouldn't have said that Destiny is up there and recording everything. That directly contradicts you.
Proof he doesn't or go away. Spoilers: You can't.
Where is the burden of proof on me? Please cite me where anyone said that the endless are limited to the sphere of gods, because residing in a realm does not mean you're limited to it. You build an inconsistent basis for your argument and literally ask others for proof, when the burden of proof is really on you. And no, I won't go away.
You? You all have adressed nothing. Etriel based half of his arguments on a fake scan and varios out of context scans are you really going to bring up someone like that here lol
He rarely adressed the Morrison scan at all. He does not even support that: ''Presence=Source=Overvoid'' Most of his arguments about the presence are from DeMatteis, not Morrison.
@y3kthunder: Destiny is above the countdown Monitors. That's basically it. All the other Monitor type beings are untethered by any form of creation which is the height of Destiny's influence.
The artist is talking about the sketch and the official map, did you even read it correctly? The conversation is all about the Multiversity Map, it is stated in the first tweet.
Correction: Thre isn't any version of the map where Destiny of The Endless is on the top, you are making that up.
I did read it correctly, Michael asked Hughes about the actual Multiversity Map, and used the drawings of the earlier version of the map (the image in the actual thread) as a basis for his question. Both were referenced which is why I mentioned both the refined version as well as the actual completed map...and nothing about the position of Destiny has changed since he is still at the top in the current map. Michael asked were the lines drawn to imply positions regarding Heaven and Destiny, and Hughes said he wasn't sure what Michael meant, because it was an earlier sketch that had been refined...and the position of Destiny is still in the Overvoid in that refined version.
Lol, you proved yet you haven't even read it correctly. The author says that the position is only metaphorical and doesn't matter, so why are you still bringing it up?
Making it up?
Bruh who is the hooded figure in the OM then? Hughs LITERALLY says "Destiny" by his name. He doesn't call that hooded figure with the book by ANY other names exept Destiny in this entire thread. The only person who tries to call him a metaconceptual "Fate' is Michael. Hughes didn't even agree with him. So you tell me where this "Fate" character is in Multiversity. Give me a link to a Metaconceptual character named Fate in DC wiki and then prove that he dresses like Destiny. I'll wait.
Still with this then? Sure. Link me a a page on the DC Wiki that contains the character Destiny of the Endless being mentioned in a Multiversity of Final Crisis issue and then we can talk.
Lol, he is only talking about the drawn part of the map, there s written and detailed summary right next to the map that you are still ignoring completely because it says the Endless are below the Monitor Sphere.
Also he is only talking abiut Destiny comparing it to a sea creature, that says nothing about the positions of locations right on the map.
I'm not ignoring anything buddy. You're not understanding me. Frst off, the summary expresses where the Endless are housed, not where they are limited to. That's why I have you an example of Death being able to completely leave the DC verse in the first place.
Lol, leaving the DC Universe doesn't qualify as leaving the Sphere Of Gods at all. The Sphere of Gods is outside of the multiverse. Getting out of the multiverse doesn't get you out of the sphere of gods, so what is your point here?
To argue that somehow the Endless are limited to the SOTG is to argue that beings in the orrerry are limited to that as well, which is completely false.
You haven't showed their area of influence getting out of the sphere of gods or out of the DC "Megaverse thought"
By ordinary means the beings of the Orrey can't access other dimensional and conceptual realms like the Sphere of Gods or the Sixth Dimension normally.
Also, my argument is that if you want to dispute position based upon ignoring placement in the actual refined map, then we can do that for any of the beings there, not just Destiny.
No you can't, since he was only referring to the drawn part of the map. The written part is still here, it is not there for no reason. It showcases exactly what I was saying. If the image conflicts with the description (surprise, in the case of Destiny it does) then you can argue that.
No, he used the seas creatures as a metaphor to compare Destiny's position and location on the map. He's saying they don't always correlate. That can be taken in favor of or against your argument.
Yes, he said that Destiny's position is only metaphorical and not literal, which debunks this nonsense of Destiny being above evergthing.
"I think you're taking the position of Destiny on the map a little too literally. Think of those sea creatures on old maps. Theyr'e not actually in that very position, at that very size."
Exactly, so what are you even debating here. He says Destiny is only metaphorically on the top. So what it is your point
So what? The Sphere of Gods is beyond the regular DC Multiverse, nohing you have said so far presents any proof she is beyond the DC Multiverse. Travel to Marvel lol? Many characters have travelled to there are on the crossovers are canon according to Morrison.
Also Death is bad example, since she is not even the ultimate incarnation of Death in the DC universe.
Death in Books of Magic claims the entirety of the Multiverse in the future, including "Fate" if you want to argue that. Marvel is also not within the Multiverse and Death has claied universes and creation beyond DC in the void. Death appearing in the Hulk was in a Marvel story arc so it wsn't a crossover at all. Try again.
Do you know the definition of crossover still? Your point was that Death appearing in other multiverses makes her beyond the DC Multiverse, when I've showed other characters have appeared, so that isn't the case.
Death isn't an incarnation. That's your first problem. She is the end all, be all personification of the concept in DC comics. There is not a single being above her regarding her title. You are only arguing this because of that quote referencing the 90's dsipute when DC writers wanted to use DoTE as a mere aspect of Death, (assuming she was akin to Nekron or the Black Racer) not knowing that Giaman created her as the ulimate Death. He corrected them back in the 90's sine they need permission to use her. That text that you are going to try to use has NOTHING to do with there being a superior incarnation since A) Death isn't an incarnation at all, she IS Death and B)
Nothing was "corrected at all" thought.There is nothing you've said that showcases what happened has been retconned and Gaiman's vision would still only put Death in the same scale as the Black Racer, another incarnation of death. New Gods are platonic, fundamental and primal forms:
So unless you can prove The Black Racer is an aspect of Death (you can't , because he is platonic, meaning he is an fundamental form of the world, and because the New Gods have zero relation to the Endless).
This is also from Final Crisis, a more recent comic that Gaiman's run, which puts your point of it being "corrected: into question.
Provide a single scan of who this would be superior incarnation is. I don't want a quote you can take out of context. Prove to me this being exists by giving me a charatcer profile on DC or a being in any of Morrison's run. I'll wait. Make certain it says "The superior incarnation of Death even beyond The Endless" or anything close.
The author clearly says Destiny is not above everything and is only metaphorically above it. Here you even him yourself:
Exactly...DESTINY. Be it metpahorically or literally, it is DESTINY. NOTHING about Fate or anyone else. So I ask you again, who is in the OM?
Doesn't matter who it is on the top. Destiny of The Endless never appeared in any DC Cosmology comic, he didn't appear on The Multiversity, didn't appear in Final Crisis. You are making him have a relevance he doesn't have. Look exactly like Destiny? You just proved you didn't even read the whole thing.
Ignorance. Ignorance. Ignorance. GOOGLE is your friend. Destiny was a DC character BEFORE the Vertigo imprint even was, just as Dream was. He has a longer history in the DC Universe than Morrison does. But the fact that you even said this tells me everything. You don't even read comics if you think what you said makes sense.
Well, that is not me saying it, it is the artist of the comic saying it, that was his way of making this representation of Fate different. It is up to you to debunk the artist who drew the comic.
Destiny has eyes.
Is he drawn with them all the time thought :)?
Destiny has history in the DC Universe PRIOR to Vertigo.
And? I am talking sbout Current Canon here, I am using the facts
Destiny sits at the top of the map.
He doesn't. The Endless are listed in the Sphere of Gods, the author confirmed he is only metaphorrically and not literally on the top.
Better yet, SHOW ME FATE
Why you don't show me Destiny of the Endless on the Multiversity first?
Even if there is no confirmation of the "metaconcept of Fate", it doesn't matter since Destiny is not really up there.
Also, funny how Saga says that Destiny has no influence over the Monitor Sphere, even when Roughes (The artist) said that he is recording the events of the Monitor Sphere in the exact same sentence where Roughes APPAREANTLY said that Destiny has no influence over the Monitor Sphere. Monitor supporters definetely did a good job!
Here let me quote him for you:
"Destiny is just metaphorically above everything, recording. That he overlaps certain areas is less important."
The key word here is metaphorically. He isn't literslly up there. This here just proves you haven't even read the scans properly. Congrats, epic debunking here.
I don't think you read your scans. If he hadn't had any influence on the Monitor Sphere AT ALL, Roughes wouldn't have said that Destiny is up there and recording everything.
The thing is, read the map, Destiny is not only above the Monitor Sphere but also above Limbo, Nil and the Freaking Source Wall. Above everything is pretty vague, since the DC Creation ends at Limbo. He already said that the position is metaphorical and for me its a give or take situation. You would have to prove Destiny is far superior to the other Endless (which one of them is powerless against the influence of a Monitor's realm) and that Destiny contains all those strutuctures outside creation on his book, which would make no sense. Anyway I will try to adress this more clearly tomorrow since I am very tired and sleepy now.
Yes, his influence on his recording book might end there at best. Althought Destiny has never made an appearance on any DC Cosmology title, so putting his influence there is dubious at the very least.
Proof he doesn't or go away. Spoilers: You can't.
Where is the burden of proof on me? Please cite me where anyone said that the endless are limited to the sphere of gods, because residing in a realm does not mean you're limited to it.
You build an inconsistent basis for your argument and literally ask others for proof, when the burden of proof is really on you. And no, I won't go away.
How the burden of proof falls on me when no one here have showcased said "influence" of the Endless? None of you posted a singles scan here regarding the Endless and yet you ask me for proof of what? If you think the Endless are beyond the sphere of gods, then I will ask if you could post the scan here so we could clear up this argument. I already posted mine, so why don't you post yours? It is simple as that.
You? You all have adressed nothing. Etriel based half of his arguments on a fake scan and varios out of context scans are you really going to bring up someone like that here lol
He rarely adressed the Morrison scan at all. He does not even support that: ''Presence=Source=Overvoid'' Most of his arguments about the presence are from DeMatteis, not Morrison.
That is why I said out of context scans. He was using DeMatteis statements when DeMatteis doesn't even know what the Overvoid is and doesn't care about DC Cosmology. You should know this as well, shouldn't you? Etriel also said that the Multiversity Map is only 4D as a bonus, that is why I am saying he is not a good source.
@xearesay: that artist just said that he oversaw an recorded things way beyond what you an your buddies thought he had influence on did he not? he said that destiny oversees even the monitor sphere which does this no correlate with this image?
So now we are arguing about the Destiny thing again right? I am going to reinterpret my question as the following: What stories does the Book of Destiny contain?
For those that believe that Destiny's reach is beyond the Sphere of Gods, what would be evidence that those stories contain the history of the Monitor Sphere or above?
For those that believe otherwise, it would suffice to show that the Monitor Sphere is not recorded in the Book.
It seems that those being described as Monitor fans would fall into the second camp. Their opponents would necessarily believe the first. Forgive me if I have strawmanned anyone here.
@au_141: That scan is fake, I and a couple more debaters already have searched everywhere on twitter and could not find it, not even the retweets that should be there. Another user here on CV confirmed that said scan was made by a guy called thebestdebater, a Google+ debater that attempted to prove the Void, the Source and The Presence were the same.
Thanks for confirming that. I would've wasted a lot more time otherwise.
This seems to make sense given if can be shown that the death comes to the Black Racer. I know Death of the New Gods showed Infinity Man killing Black Racer so that seems to indicate that this opinion is definitive. But at the same time, the Black Racer seemed to be fine in Final Crisis...
Either way, if the Endless are limited to the Sphere of Gods then how do we explain the deaths of those that reside in the Monitor Sphere? Is it the case that death as concept doesn't apply to Monitor+ level beings?
@au_141: Well I misinterpreted some things earlier because I was tired and sleepy so instead of adressing the other debaters again and again, I will just post a single post after after gathering some more evidence. On the Monitor stuff, I will agree that Death can affect the Monitors when they are inside the Multiverse, but as we discovered in Justice League 2018, the Monitors' true bodies, their true form always reforms in the Sixth Dimension. As a matter of fact, the Sixth Dimension isn't even on the map (since it was created years after Morrison made said map) and it is outside of creation, so you would have a hard time proving that the Endless have any power over it.
@au_141: The thing with the Countdown Monitors is unclear, but technically they indeed reform, but not as themselves, but as Mar-Novu, the Over-Monitor of the First Crisis:
All of them are pieces of the Over-Monitor, but we don't know if they had access to the Sixth Dimension (probably not).
As for the the Placement of the Fifth Dimension and its Imps, it is also not on the map, but we know it is below the Monitor Sphere (Bleedspace contains the Fifth Dimension), althought we don't know yet their relation to the sphere of gods.
@hyoname: It's not really a battle, I just wanted to discuss the roles both these entities play. Based on how the discussion has evolved, I think I might rename to to The Sphere of Gods or something of that nature.
@au_141: The thing with the Countdown Monitors is unclear, but technically they indeed reform, but not as themselves, but as Mar-Novu, the Over-Monitor of the First Crisis:
All of them are pieces of the Over-Monitor, but we don't know if they had access to the Sixth Dimension (probably not).
This seems to make sense, but it is still somewhat confusing. The Countdown Monitors are fragments of the Mar Novu. Is this also the case for Mandrakk as well? If so, does this mean that the Mar Novu we see here is neccesarily incomplete?
As for the the Placement of the Fifth Dimension and its Imps, it is also not on the map, but we know it is below the Monitor Sphere (Bleedspace contains the Fifth Dimension), althought we don't know yet their relation to the sphere of gods.
I am thinking that if the Endless are indeed limited to the Sphere of Gods, simply proving that the Imps can die would place them in the Sphere of Gods. What do you think?
@au_141: Mandrakk is actually a part of a race of celestial beings called Nil Monitors, they exist in Nil, which is also on the Multiversity Map. He was created directly by the Overvoid. So basically he is different from the Countdown and Crisis on Infinite Earth Monitors.
He was originally a Monitor called Dax Novu, created by the Overvoid to explore the narratives of the DC Multiverse, also called the Flaw.
He apparently split in two (in a metaphorical sense it seems or maybe physical) and the result is that he was contaminated and became a being named Mandrakk
If a Fifth Imp can die, yes, maybe we can place them on the same level of existence as the Sphere fo Gods, but that also debatable, I will search more information on them to see where they would place exactly.
@sagathelegend: That’s I thought. It’s been so long that I had to make sure that was the case. The story Of Nix Uotan Was what confused me for a second. He is the Son Dax Novu/Mandrakk yet he also seems to be one of the monitors from Countdodn. Is he just Nil Monitor among others?
The artist is talking about the sketch and the official map, did you even read it correctly? The conversation is all about the Multiversity Map, it is stated in the first tweet.
Correction: Thre isn't any version of the map where Destiny of The Endless is on the top, you are making that up.
I did read it correctly, Michael asked Hughes about the actual Multiversity Map, and used the drawings of the earlier version of the map (the image in the actual thread) as a basis for his question. Both were referenced which is why I mentioned both the refined version as well as the actual completed map...and nothing about the position of Destiny has changed since he is still at the top in the current map. Michael asked were the lines drawn to imply positions regarding Heaven and Destiny, and Hughes said he wasn't sure what Michael meant, because it was an earlier sketch that had been refined...and the position of Destiny is still in the Overvoid in that refined version.
Making it up?
Bruh who is the hooded figure in the OM then? Hughs LITERALLY says "Destiny" by his name. He doesn't call that hooded figure with the book by ANY other names exept Destiny in this entire thread. The only person who tries to call him a metaconceptual "Fate' is Michael. Hughes didn't even agree with him. So you tell me where this "Fate" character is in Multiversity. Give me a link to a Metaconceptual character named Fate in DC wiki and then prove that he dresses like Destiny. I'll wait.
Lol, he is only talking about the drawn part of the map, there s written and detailed summary right next to the map that you are still ignoring completely because it says the Endless are below the Monitor Sphere.
Also he is only talking abiut Destiny comparing it to a sea creature, that says nothing about the positions of locations right on the map.
I'm not ignoring anything buddy. You're not understanding me. Frst off, the summary expresses where the Endless are housed, not where they are limited to. That's why I have you an example of Death being able to completely leave the DC verse in the first place. To argue that somehow the Endless are limited to the SOTG is to argue that beings in the orrerry are limited to that as well, which is completely false. Also, my argument is that if you want to dispute position based upon ignoring placement in the actual refined map, then we can do that for any of the beings there, not just Destiny.
No, he used the seas creatures as a metaphor to compare Destiny's position and location on the map. He's saying they don't always correlate. That can be taken in favor of or against your argument.
"I think you're taking the positionof Destiny on the map a little too literally. Think of those sea creatures on old maps. Theyr'e not actually in that very position, at that very size."
So what? The Sphere of Gods is beyond the regular DC Multiverse, nohing you have said so far presents any proof she is beyond the DC Multiverse. Travel to Marvel lol? Many characters have travelled to there are on the crossovers are canon according to Morrison.
Also Death is bad example, since she is not even the ultimate incarnation of Death in the DC universe.
Death in Books of Magic claims the entirety of the Multiverse in the future, including "Fate" if you want to argue that. Marvel is also not within the Multiverse and Death has claied universes and creation beyond DC in the void. Death appearing in the Hulk was in a Marvel story arc so it wsn't a crossover at all. Try again.
Death isn't an incarnation. That's your first problem. She is the end all, be all personification of the concept in DC comics. There is not a single being above her regarding her title. You are only arguing this because of that quote referencing the 90's dsipute when DC writers wanted to use DoTE as a mere aspect of Death, (assuming she was akin to Nekron or the Black Racer) not knowing that Giaman created her as the ulimate Death. He corrected them back in the 90's sine they need permission to use her. That text that you are going to try to use has NOTHING to do with there being a superior incarnation since A) Death isn't an incarnation at all, she IS Death and B)
Provide a single scan of who this would be superior incarnation is. I don't want a quote you can take out of context. Prove to me this being exists by giving me a charatcer profile on DC or a being in any of Morrison's run. I'll wait. Make certain it says "The superior incarnation of Death even beyond The Endless" or anything close.
The author clearly says Destiny is not above everything and is only metaphorically above it. Here you even him yourself:
Exactly...DESTINY. Be it metpahorically or literally, it is DESTINY. NOTHING about Fate or anyone else. So I ask you again, who is in the OM?
Doesn't matter who it is on the top. Destiny of The Endless never appeared in any DC Cosmology comic, he didn't appear on The Multiversity, didn't appear in Final Crisis. You are making him have a relevance he doesn't have. Look exactly like Destiny? You just proved you didn't even read the whole thing.
Ignorance. Ignorance. Ignorance. GOOGLE is your friend. Destiny was a DC character BEFORE the Vertigo imprint even was, just as Dream was. He has a longer history in the DC Universe than Morrison does. But the fact that you even said this tells me everything. You don't even read comics if you think what you said makes sense.
Destiny has eyes.
Destiny has history in the DC Universe PRIOR to Vertigo.
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