The Last of Us II: Poll Contains massive spoilers for the game. Read OP.

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RBT

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Poll The Last of Us II: Poll Contains massive spoilers for the game. Read OP. (27 votes)

Yes 41%
No 56%
Result 4%

Do you think Ellie letting Abby live made sense from the story's pov?

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RBT

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I personally think it did, even if it was unsatisfying.

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manmadeofhunter

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@rbt said:

I personally think it did, even if it was unsatisfying.

From the story's main theme, yes.

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Killer94

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Ellie not completing her revenge is flat out stupid, she murdered hundreds of people and then suddenly have a life changing epiphany in a snap and decided not to kill Abby because revenge is bad?

The level of stupidity of this game (narrative-wise) is just baffling, the narrative choices ND made for the characters are ridiculous and very "out-of-character"

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RBT

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@killer94 said:

Ellie not completing her revenge is flat out stupid, she murdered hundreds of people and then suddenly have a life changing epiphany in a snap and decided not to kill Abby because revenge is bad?

The level of stupidity of this game (narrative-wise) is just baffling, the narrative choices ND made for the characters are ridiculous and very "out-of-character"

Yeah. I thought about it a bit more and what you said makes a lot more sense.

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Mike_Fowler

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Yes, in fact, I’d say it clearly did

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Killer94

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@rbt said:
@killer94 said:

Ellie not completing her revenge is flat out stupid, she murdered hundreds of people and then suddenly have a life changing epiphany in a snap and decided not to kill Abby because revenge is bad?

The level of stupidity of this game (narrative-wise) is just baffling, the narrative choices ND made for the characters are ridiculous and very "out-of-character"

Yeah. I thought about it a bit more and what you said makes a lot more sense.

IMO Neil Druckmann maybe wanted to be bold in this game but he failed miserably.

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TheSpartanB345T

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Murders hundreds to get to Abby... Gets her FINGERS BITTEN OFF by her and STILL doesn't kill her?!?! One vision of Joel just reverses that rage? Joel would have wanted Abby dead as hell, let alone the adrenaline from getting your fingers bitten off. No way ANYBODY would have spared Abby in that situation.

Terrible game with such a broken plot and no respect to it's origins.

It's literally like if John Wick spared the guy that killed his dog.

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Dangannopoopoo

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#8  Edited By Dangannopoopoo
@thespartanb345t said:

Murders hundreds to get to Abby... Gets her FINGERS BITTEN OFF by her and STILL doesn't kill her?!?! One vision of Joel just reverses that rage? Joel would have wanted Abby dead as hell, let alone the adrenaline from getting your fingers bitten off. No way ANYBODY would have spared Abby in that situation.

Terrible game with such a broken plot and no respect to it's origins.

It's literally like if John Wick spared the guy that killed his dog.

Exactly, a lot of people like to bring up Joel's death and how he was a bad guy and doomed humanity. Why would Ellie's vision of him make her stop then? Was it her letting go of him because he was a bad person? That doesn't make any sense because she already knew before he died. She goes through all this trouble to get to Abby and once she gets there doesn't even go through with it, and loses everything she has left in the process.

And why would it matter if these two found out revenge is bad in the end? In the bigger picture they aren't good people either, and there's a bunch of more people out there like them that probably should want them dead, society is doomed. So the whole ending the cycle thing from Druckman is complete dog shit

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TheParadox

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Doesn't make much sense to me.

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prepmaster

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#10  Edited By prepmaster

Its just a game. Chill out people. Not everyone could be like Ellie but perhaps a small minority would act like her. Maybe Ellie was driven by hatred so much that in the end she realizes there isn't any payoff in getting revenge for the people she has lost. Also there are moments where people say that their favorite characters were acting out of characters but they are humans so the idea of a guy occasionally making mistakes in trusting people still works. Maybe trusting people did work for a few times before trusting the wrong people.

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KanyeCosby

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I feel like it would have been better if she had killed Abby first and then after seeing how little she gained from it, realized revenge was bad.

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CocaColaMan

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I'll get back to this tonight.

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incursion2

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Yes

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TheSpartanB345T

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@dangannopoopoo: yeah, and the ending is so disrespectful... Ellie can forgive Abbie but not Joel?!?!?!

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Mike_Fowler

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@thespartanb345t: I’m sorry but what? The entire point of the ending was making it clear that she forgave him

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KingCarcosa

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I feel like it would have been better if she had killed Abby first and then after seeing how little she gained from it, realized revenge was bad.

Exactly! Letting Abby go away after everything Ellie did to find and kill her was an unrealistic way of exploring the main theme of this game. Neil should let the players achieve their climatic revenge agaisnt Abby and see how Ellie lost everything else in the process. It would represent how hate blinded not only Ellie but every player who was determined to avenge Joel at all costs.

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TheSpartanB345T

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@mike_fowler:

I'm saying that the idea that Ellie struggles to forgive Joel after years when he did an arguably justified action is ridiculous when she forgives Abby, who murdered the man that saved her and is definitely a bad person, literally seconds after she gets her fingers bitten off... It's juxtaposed back to back within cutscenes which only emphasizes how weird it is.

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Mike_Fowler

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#19  Edited By Mike_Fowler

@thespartanb345t:

“Arguably justified”

Taking her from the fireflies maybe, lying to her about it for years on end is something I don’t see how one can say it was justified

Regardless, her action is less of her “forgiving Abby” and more so forgiving herself. Throughout the first and second games, she’s been wracked with guilt from a lot of things. In this instance, Her guilt in how she treated Joel for the past couple years is the main thing that drives her, and is the main reason she was so hellbent on revenge. It was having (and I mean truly having) Abby’s life in her hands that she was finally able to look past seeing Joel’s broken body, look past how she treated him, and remember the final conversation she had with him. That memory let’s her realize that Joel doesn’t need to be alive for her to forgive him and move on. Killing Abby isn’t gonna help her and her mental state, and it won’t give her the closure she’s been wanting

Again, it’s less bout Abby, and more about herself

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TheSpartanB345T

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@mike_fowler: It doesn't mean it isn't any less of a bad choice... Abby still was willing to kill her and probably would if she hadn't had drowned her. Abby NOT backstabbing Ellie after she showed mercy was just Ellie being lucky. You can argue the CONCEPT of Ellie forgiving herself all you want, but the execution is so terrible that the argument falls flat. It is making the player invest 10+ hours into the sole goal of killing Abby... Only for it to not happen. The fingers getting bitten off make it even more unrealistic.

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Joker567892

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The theme shouldn't have been vengeance but rather forgiveness.

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Mike_Fowler

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@thespartanb345t:

, “Abby is willing to kill Ellie” when the entire reason she is “willing to kill” her by that point was because Ellie literally forced her hand by threatening the life of an innocent child (Lev). Literally before (and after) that, all Abby was concerned about was getting Lev and escaping, not fighting Ellie, not trying to kill Ellie. It’s why after Ellie finally stops the senseless fighting, Abby just takes Lev and leaves

I ask you this, what do you think about the fact that the first game had you invest 10+ hours in the sole goal of getting Ellie to the fireflies and creating a cure, only for it to not happen? I would like your opinion on that.

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Ryokuma100

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After the backstory, it wouldn’t make sense for Ellie to kill Abby. What would that leave the player with? “I finally killed the girl that has some reasoning behind killing Joel, so that makes Ellie...um...I don’t know, but she did it!” I mean, I didn’t like how the game was structured, it didn’t seem like that was the route it should’ve taken following the first, but it makes sense in accordance to the game.

I’m more mad at the structure than the conclusion.

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Dangannopoopoo

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#24  Edited By Dangannopoopoo

@mike_fowler: The main focus of the game wasn't more so the cure, it was Joel finding something else to fight for and to survive. Joel is suppose to be the ultimate survivor. The first game was humanizing, you may not agree with Joel's method in the end you can understand why, Ellie on the other hand does something that no normal thinking person would do.

From Joel's perspective, the main character of the game, the cure isn't the main focus it's just getting Ellie there and getting his weapons, but his character develops over the course of the game and his main priority turns to Ellie. However Ellie's main focus is killing Abby and getting revenge and nothing strays her from doing that the whole game until the END of the game. You could argue she forgot about it during her time at the farm, but then she wouldn't have felt so conflicted when Tommy came. Ellie has no purpose in this game other to tell the players that revenge is bad in a sloppily written and structured way.

Had the game been about forgiveness, it would've worked, but it doesn't go like that.

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Mike_Fowler

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@dangannopoopoo:

The person I said that to is specifically talking about the sole goal of the player, so I’m referencing what the actual goal of the player was in the first game, and that’s getting Ellie to the fireflies, and finding a cure.

The main focus of Ellie though is her getting closure with regard to the relationship she had with Joel. That’s the point of those flashbacks, that’s the point of the final conversation those two were shown to have, and that’s the point of her leaving the guitar at the farm in the end. She thinks to get that closure she needs to hunt down all of those responsible, but it’s clear as she hunts them that it’s not truly good for her (when she tortured Nora, when she kills Owen and Mel, her reaction to each of those particular instances show how bad an effect it’s having on her). It’s shown that she can’t think about Joel without thinking about his corpse, until the time finally comes that she’s beaten Abby and drowning her that she can see a truly positive flashback of Joel. Hell, it’s what makes her and Abby absolute parallels in that regard (Abby actually got her revenge, and you see the absolute domino effect that occurs that completely ruins her life)

To address a particular bit though, I don’t see how anyone can argue she “forgot about it at the farm”. That sequence flat out shows the type of PTSD she’s been dealing with ever since she’s been at the farm.

And you say it as though the game is solely about revenge, when in the end it’s about multiple things. Revenge and Forgiveness being some of them

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TheSpartanB345T

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@mike_fowler:

^^ kinda breaks it down well

The reason why the ending of the first was so compelling is because we saw Joel gradually go from "hrrrmm I want my weapons" to "holy shit please don't kill my surrogate daughter." He goes from not caring a bit about Ellie to abandoning EVERYTHING he's worked for just to save her life, at the potential cost of all of humanity. It's a powerful ending because both sides are understandable. Both sides make sense.

This game goes batshit with logic. Ellie does a 180 and becomes an unlikeable character (hating Joel, holding Lev at knifepoint do Abby can fight instead of just killing her and moving on) and then reverses it in a second... If Ellie was so ruthless that she'd kill Lev for revenge then she would never spare Abby. If Ellie was gracious enough to spare Abby she would never threaten an innocent bystander to invite violence. The game tries as hard as possible to make Abby likeable and Ellie bad and it just makes it confusing, because either way the player is FORCED to continue the revenge cycle. There's no way to say "look, violence and revenge is bad" when you literally don't give the player any choice except to kill pregnant women and dogs and make it depressingly dark. It's putting the player through suffering and torture porn and then saying "huh? You hated that? Well the whole experience is meant to say that this type of violence and revenge is bad, let's give you this obvious message while leaving no satisfaction in the ending."

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#27  Edited By FaradaySloth

Imagine if Arya kills numerous people to get to Cersei who was responsible for her misery & families deaths but then stopped & gave up right at the final part because of a weak and/or lame reason? That was the last of Us 2 ending.

Wait a minute.

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SquadDoubleYou

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TLoU 2 actually mimicked the season 8 of GoT

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Mike_Fowler

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#29  Edited By Mike_Fowler

@thespartanb345t:

With all due respect, I don’t see how her being frustrated with Joel would be one of the reasons to say she’s unlikeable (considering her reason is pretty damn justified)

“If Ellie was so ruthless that she'd kill Lev for revenge then she would never spare Abby.”

Except that instance isn’t trying to say Ellie is “so ruthless”. It’s driving the point home of the fact that she’s desperate at this point. Throughout the game it’s repeatedly shown that Ellie can’t be full on ruthless and just shake it off (like for example, Joel was shown to be).

“If Ellie was gracious enough to spare Abby she would never threaten an innocent bystander to invite violence. ”

And again, she was desperate as hell to get some form of closure, because of the very real case of ptsd and guilt she was suffering from.

“The game tries as hard as possible to make Abby likeable and Ellie bad and it just makes it confusing“

No, it really doesn’t. It shows that there’s a human side to the BOTH of them. It shows that both are flawed (Mel specifically calls out Abby for being an absolute shitty person, and Abby knows that Mel is right) and that they’re literal parallels to each other.

Been appreciating the discussion so far

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Dangannopoopoo

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#30  Edited By Dangannopoopoo

@mike_fowler:

I can agree with Nora, because she had to torture her to get information something she's doesn't want to do because she's not Joel or Abby. However I don't think she really cared about Owen's death other than he didn't give her the location of Abby and for Mel. Well, I actually like that scene because it isn't really because she killed Mel, its the symbolism.

It also goes to Abby's case when she's beating Dina and Ellie tells her she's pregnant and she says good, she's echoing her hatred for Mel because when she finds Mel's body she doesn't really care, she always hated her. So I can give credit when its due.

While she does have PTSD about Joel, she seems content somewhat with no closure. Had Tommy never came in and brought up what she said to him, she probably would've never left and while PTSD definitely sucks, people can live with it and it's just life.

The game is for the most part about revenge. The forgiveness is ransacked with the notion that Ellie's motive of the whole cure was actually with selfish intent and blind optimism. She wanted to be known somewhat as a hero, be famous and leave a legacy and with her leaving the world in the hospital she wouldn't ever have to be alone. Why do we only learn this in the end of the game? Its not exactly a positive flashback either because she just berates him after he tried to defend her, making her seem unlikable. The forgiveness isn't really fleshed out.

If Abby and Ellie were supposed to be written as parallel's they didn't do it correctly. Abby gets her revenge, gets her friends killed and leaves with her own "Ellie" Lev (who I actually think is one of the more interesting characters). Ellie doesn't get her revenge, gets her friends killed, gets left behind by her girlfriend and child and is all by herself in the dangerous world of LoU where at this point multiple factions want her dead. You see what's wrong there? It doesn't exactly pull the trigger it with the impacts and outcomes of revenge. If anything they tried to make Abby seem a lot like Joel with how her story fleshes out, which is actually kind of ironic and I don't mind that.

The main problem of the game is the structure. The game does have some compelling narrative potential but it's ruined with how the story flows. We should know about Abby and learn about her supporting cast and struggles before she kills Joel, making the player connect with her more (which is obviously what they tried to do and failed). Ellie and Joel's flashbacks shouldn't be popping up in random places. Dina and Jessie should be more fleshed out. Dina's literally helps Ellie out in the field for maybe an hour and is a liability for her for the rest of the game (until she saves her from Abby, sorta.)The moment Jessie is getting fleshed out he gets killed in one of the dumbest ways possible. We get why there following Ellie because they're her friends but at least give us more reason other than that. Besides Jessie's little tidbit of looking up to Joel in dialogue we never actually see these characters interact.

If anything Abby's story should've been an expansion like Lost Legacy prequel game that came out before part 2 and then the most of this game should've been Ellie' flashbacks with Joel, her coping with the loss of him and seeking revenge and finding peace within herself. People shouldn't hate the character that you're possibly trying to make as a mainstay for the series.

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Thor-Parker

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@rbt said:

I personally think it did, even if it was unsatisfying.

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Mekboy

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@killer94 said:

Ellie not completing her revenge is flat out stupid, she murdered hundreds of people and then suddenly have a life changing epiphany in a snap and decided not to kill Abby because revenge is bad?

The level of stupidity of this game (narrative-wise) is just baffling, the narrative choices ND made for the characters are ridiculous and very "out-of-character"