Good morning, good afternoon ladies and gentlemen fellow users of the vine, im back today with surprisingly not a respect thread. no today i wanted to talk about a topic that i have seen appear more recently with the upcoming DC big event dark crisis which features the return of the great darkness. the topic at large revolves around the connection between Lucifer Morningstar of the sandman universe and the Great Darkness dc's swamp thing american gothic, how are these two beings connected? are they the same being? will any of this be shown through dark crisis or any story later on? whelp today im here to answer these questions to the best of my ability because ive seen so much confusion and debate about this and hopefully after reading this thread youll have your answers.
Now first of all id like to point out right off the bat that during the early pages of the sandman dream goes to hell in search of his helm while there lucifer expresses to dream that things have changed in hell since the dark or shadow creature came forth to challenge heaven which lead to a civil war in hell that lead to hell having 3 rulers and in doing so he seperates himself from the great darkness or geb as some call it, which is show in the image below
so there you have it end of discussion pointless thread right? well not quite some years later Niel gaimans award winning series would blow up to be even bigger than before it would now have its own official comic line known as the sandman universe which tied in a bunch of stories into its own little verse, well one of these stories which was written by an auther by the name of Dan Watters his run turned out to be focused on none other than lucifer morningstar sometime after the events of the original sandman. and during one of his arcs lucifer is traveling through out the various different afterlives looking for a home for his former lover, eventually he makes it to the hindu afterlife and we're met with various different versions or avatars of lucifer
one of which looks eerily similar to that of the hand we were greeted with back in the old american gothic story of swamp thing the hand of GEB and it did not take to long for people to notice this. one of which took to twitter to ask dan about this image who replied
it is indeed.... and there you have it folks this image here is why i am making this thread, and to truly answer this to the best of my ability i will be using evidence from both stories to hopefully answer your questions.
They're both Satan?
thats right ladies and gentlemen for those of you who do not know this dc has had multiple devil figures within its stories believe it or not starting with the great darkness. the multiverse was ending a group of cultists had called out to something and succeeded something had awoke and the multiverses destruction would be its answer, john constatine left in search for answers as to what there foe might be, eventually coming to a church where he talked to a nun who stated that the enemy they now faced was none other than satan himself. interesting enough she said this while standing right next to a mural of michael impaling lucifer with a spear. see for yourself
but what of lucifer? he is the angel who started a war in heaven who was impaled by michaels spear like in the mural of the image above and cast from the heavens
and he to is referred to as satan a number of times within his latest run however i think is will do
The Many faces of the Great Darkness and Lucifer
Thats right folks Satan is not the great darknesses only identity. according to one of johns friends it is a extragalactic energy field drawn into a black hole 8 billion years ago.
and to another its the great Cthulhu
its right hand that it used to form truce with heaven would become known as the empty hand.
while its other was darkseid.
according to cain geb is the soul of darkness itself, completely absent of divine light. it is the ultimate darkness.
and as it turns out lucifer is also not his only identity, he is lucifer morningstar, the great beast, old harry, and a thousand names besides.
he is the serpent and pan (aka the goat and blind man)
he is the shadow on the wall of the cave.
he has lived these tales 1000 times and he has been the monster in 1000 shadows
when asked about the symbolism of lucifers character this is what dan had to say
"So with those three illustrations — the idea is that there are these paintings on the walls of Lux. The brothers have given a through thread with how they look, the ideas is that the first one is the striking down of Lucifer by Saint Michael the second one is from a piece of Irish folklore, and the third one is definitely nodding towards Edgar Allen Poe. So the idea is that you have Lucifer as a religious figure, you’ve got him as folkloric figure — that version of the devil is very different generally speaking than the religious figure of Satan. Those two never really got combined until Paradise Lost. The idea of Satan as the ruler of hell who is also the angel Lucifer who fell from heaven, that was entirely Milton. He slammed those two characters together and said, “Okay, this is one being now.” And so powerful was Paradise Lost that we’ve just run with that from there on. So that entirely comes from a piece of poetry. And that kind of goes into the third one which is the horror, fiction version, which probably is what most of us today deal with more than any of the other versions. So it’s definitely a case of wanting to look at all the different versions of Lucifer or Satan and try and amalgamate them. Or not even amalgamate them, but allow all versions to have the freedom to go into all those different arenas, which is something I was really interested in. It’s almost a little bit like with Sandman and when you see Dream from someone else’s perspective. You see it from a cat’s perspective it’s a cat, when you see it from Martian Manhunter’s perspective he’s a giant flaming skull. And kind of let Lucifer be a similar thing in that he’s this very fractal figure — he has all of these symbols but he sort of is all of these symbols. He stands for all these different things for different people and he looms in the background of all of our human darkness in any story. From a writer’s perspective the freedom that gives me is unbelievable, because any story about the dark side of humanity becomes Lucifer’s story.'
so essentially lucifer like the endless is a very fractional being with many different viewpoints and avatars.
The dark that came before his light and is completely devoid of it.
when the darkness first started to rise it was etrigan who first challenged it and was swallowed whole by it. within the darkness we learn that it existed before the light and when it asked etrigan what is was? etrigans response was that its name was evil complete devoid of divine light his shadow partner locked in and endless fight.
and it was a culmination of these two that allowed for creation to exist
But what of Lucifer? did the dark exist before the light? and did through the dark and the light was everything made possible? it turns out the answer to both of these questions is yes, and lucifer is the dark devoid of his light he is the shadow that defined his light.
and who else besides GEB is locked in a constant battle with god? well i think thats an easy answer lucifer he absolutely hates his father and is literally constantly butting heads with him
Both are tempters
as the darkness grew dr fate would be the next to confront GEB and be swallowed, inside geb asked fate what evil was and fate responded that evil was a quagmire of ignorance, that would drag u back from the immortal light.
this only tought geb contempt
while lucifer is also a trickster and a tempter who will make promises that are not lies and he will let us bury ourselves in our truths.
Lucifer is the darkness
After lucifer fails to stop the prophecy of the hunted god he goes to hell and vows never to return there again then he leaves to destinys garden where he threatens to take destinys book by force if he needs to and destiny decides it was best to let him have it, after obtaining it lucifer has had enough of existence and he erases himself from the book, and a small group of people who had gifts from lucifer decide to take up his mantle and fool the universe into believing he was still there that way all of space and time did not collapse
and for a while this worked everything went on as normal until the former hunted god messed things up by being kind to an old lady who believed the devil would come and get her, in doing so the universe breathed a sigh of relief there was no devil and there never had been evil wasnt there. As maze goes on to say she let the universe know the devil isnt as bad as all of that but lucifer was and he had to be, as a result everything, everywhere and at everytime changed at once
the man who feared the shadow on the wall of the cave decided it was a trick of the light and decided to kill his brother his tribe killing him right after there was a war in heaven but hell would never become what it was.
and a little girl kills her brother with no conscious
Things were going to get worse eventually lucifer would be forgotten but the universe needs balance a dark to define the light he was that dark
not long after these things started to happen the host descend upon maze asking her where lucifer was they must question him about the disappearance of god, but maze just laughed and told them lucifer had done nothing and as a matter of fact it was the case that he never was to begin with and when they question her what this had to do with the presence she replied that perhaps the host ought to look at what made lucifer so different from the rest them what made him what he was.
and at the implications of that the host left in terror. and it werent long before they sent michael back down to talk with maze and so he does what she tells him is not satisfactory but he learns of his need to talk to destiny and so he does when there he reads upon what lucifer has done and what he must now do so he rounds up duma and remiel who were starving on some street and they head back for the silver city. you see lucifer told maze a joke that without the devil there could be no god
there was no light without darkness lucifer was need for the presence to exist as a defined entity , there need to be a concept of black against the white for the concept of white to exist at all. lucifer is the concept of black
and when he was brought back things started to revert themselves and balance was restored right and wrong were apparent and good and evil existed once more.
Geb also depends on the presence
like what was said in the new lucifer run stranger tells us that the shade and light depend upon one another
What of dark crisis and possible further stories?
well now that we have looked at the evidence and its fairly safe to say that dans words have some weight what about dark crisis or future stories? is lucifer geb within them or will they change that? well as of lucifers current run he is certainly the great darkness in my opinion i think the evidence is all there and it speaks for itself he certainly fits the bill, through and through but will he remain that way to be honest and to be fair i couldnt tell you as of now he still fits the bill, ive seen some say that the new justice league incarnate contradict this with darkseid and the empty hand being apart of geb but this doesnt mean lucifer cannot be geb like geb lucifer is the very concept of black evil itself, and like geb lucifer is a fractional being with many avatars and viewpoints the sandman does not need to list everyone of them remember he has 1000 names and he was been a 1000 different things. so sandman doesnt necessarily need to list them all nor does lucifer need to be specifically mentioned. however this being said everyone has there own voice there own thoughts and ideas as do the authors of dark crisis they have every right to go on record or in book an separate the 2 entities and thats fine hell to the supports of geb being lucifer dont be surprised if within these next few months that whole idea is scrubbed and forgotten or ignored and thats perfectly fine but as of now there is nothing wrong with them being the same. now how about future lucifer stories? say he is retconed into not being geb in dark crisis what about the sandman? well first off so long as the sandman universe continues i am sure you will see him again id be very surprised otherwise I believe it is only a matter of time before he returns. So what happens when he does? well i believe should the line of the sandman universe comics continue and he appears in them i believe you will be met with dans version of the character afterall he is the canon lucifer or i belive you will be met with a version very similar and there is a chance they will still go that route of course they also could go another way only time will tell.
whelp there you have it folks i tried to explain and hopefully make a few people understand the 2 of these characters a tad bit more and hopefully this lessened some confusion. now ill leave you all to decide whither or not the evidence here makes sense if theyre or not if anyone has questions feel free to ask ill do my best to answer