The Great Darkness and Lucifer Morningstar

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Good morning, good afternoon ladies and gentlemen fellow users of the vine, im back today with surprisingly not a respect thread. no today i wanted to talk about a topic that i have seen appear more recently with the upcoming DC big event dark crisis which features the return of the great darkness. the topic at large revolves around the connection between Lucifer Morningstar of the sandman universe and the Great Darkness dc's swamp thing american gothic, how are these two beings connected? are they the same being? will any of this be shown through dark crisis or any story later on? whelp today im here to answer these questions to the best of my ability because ive seen so much confusion and debate about this and hopefully after reading this thread youll have your answers.

Now first of all id like to point out right off the bat that during the early pages of the sandman dream goes to hell in search of his helm while there lucifer expresses to dream that things have changed in hell since the dark or shadow creature came forth to challenge heaven which lead to a civil war in hell that lead to hell having 3 rulers and in doing so he seperates himself from the great darkness or geb as some call it, which is show in the image below

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so there you have it end of discussion pointless thread right? well not quite some years later Niel gaimans award winning series would blow up to be even bigger than before it would now have its own official comic line known as the sandman universe which tied in a bunch of stories into its own little verse, well one of these stories which was written by an auther by the name of Dan Watters his run turned out to be focused on none other than lucifer morningstar sometime after the events of the original sandman. and during one of his arcs lucifer is traveling through out the various different afterlives looking for a home for his former lover, eventually he makes it to the hindu afterlife and we're met with various different versions or avatars of lucifer

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one of which looks eerily similar to that of the hand we were greeted with back in the old american gothic story of swamp thing the hand of GEB and it did not take to long for people to notice this. one of which took to twitter to ask dan about this image who replied

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it is indeed.... and there you have it folks this image here is why i am making this thread, and to truly answer this to the best of my ability i will be using evidence from both stories to hopefully answer your questions.

An in depth look at connections between the Great Darkness and Lucifer Morningstar

They're both Satan?

thats right ladies and gentlemen for those of you who do not know this dc has had multiple devil figures within its stories believe it or not starting with the great darkness. the multiverse was ending a group of cultists had called out to something and succeeded something had awoke and the multiverses destruction would be its answer, john constatine left in search for answers as to what there foe might be, eventually coming to a church where he talked to a nun who stated that the enemy they now faced was none other than satan himself. interesting enough she said this while standing right next to a mural of michael impaling lucifer with a spear. see for yourself

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but what of lucifer? he is the angel who started a war in heaven who was impaled by michaels spear like in the mural of the image above and cast from the heavens

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and he to is referred to as satan a number of times within his latest run however i think is will do

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The Many faces of the Great Darkness and Lucifer

Thats right folks Satan is not the great darknesses only identity. according to one of johns friends it is a extragalactic energy field drawn into a black hole 8 billion years ago.

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and to another its the great Cthulhu

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its right hand that it used to form truce with heaven would become known as the empty hand.

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while its other was darkseid.

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according to cain geb is the soul of darkness itself, completely absent of divine light. it is the ultimate darkness.

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and as it turns out lucifer is also not his only identity, he is lucifer morningstar, the great beast, old harry, and a thousand names besides.

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he is the serpent and pan (aka the goat and blind man)

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he is the shadow on the wall of the cave.

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he has lived these tales 1000 times and he has been the monster in 1000 shadows

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when asked about the symbolism of lucifers character this is what dan had to say

"So with those three illustrations — the idea is that there are these paintings on the walls of Lux. The brothers have given a through thread with how they look, the ideas is that the first one is the striking down of Lucifer by Saint Michael the second one is from a piece of Irish folklore, and the third one is definitely nodding towards Edgar Allen Poe. So the idea is that you have Lucifer as a religious figure, you’ve got him as folkloric figure — that version of the devil is very different generally speaking than the religious figure of Satan. Those two never really got combined until Paradise Lost. The idea of Satan as the ruler of hell who is also the angel Lucifer who fell from heaven, that was entirely Milton. He slammed those two characters together and said, “Okay, this is one being now.” And so powerful was Paradise Lost that we’ve just run with that from there on. So that entirely comes from a piece of poetry. And that kind of goes into the third one which is the horror, fiction version, which probably is what most of us today deal with more than any of the other versions. So it’s definitely a case of wanting to look at all the different versions of Lucifer or Satan and try and amalgamate them. Or not even amalgamate them, but allow all versions to have the freedom to go into all those different arenas, which is something I was really interested in. It’s almost a little bit like with Sandman and when you see Dream from someone else’s perspective. You see it from a cat’s perspective it’s a cat, when you see it from Martian Manhunter’s perspective he’s a giant flaming skull. And kind of let Lucifer be a similar thing in that he’s this very fractal figure — he has all of these symbols but he sort of is all of these symbols. He stands for all these different things for different people and he looms in the background of all of our human darkness in any story. From a writer’s perspective the freedom that gives me is unbelievable, because any story about the dark side of humanity becomes Lucifer’s story.'

so essentially lucifer like the endless is a very fractional being with many different viewpoints and avatars.

The dark that came before his light and is completely devoid of it.

when the darkness first started to rise it was etrigan who first challenged it and was swallowed whole by it. within the darkness we learn that it existed before the light and when it asked etrigan what is was? etrigans response was that its name was evil complete devoid of divine light his shadow partner locked in and endless fight.

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and it was a culmination of these two that allowed for creation to exist

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But what of Lucifer? did the dark exist before the light? and did through the dark and the light was everything made possible? it turns out the answer to both of these questions is yes, and lucifer is the dark devoid of his light he is the shadow that defined his light.

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and who else besides GEB is locked in a constant battle with god? well i think thats an easy answer lucifer he absolutely hates his father and is literally constantly butting heads with him

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Both are tempters

as the darkness grew dr fate would be the next to confront GEB and be swallowed, inside geb asked fate what evil was and fate responded that evil was a quagmire of ignorance, that would drag u back from the immortal light.

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this only tought geb contempt

while lucifer is also a trickster and a tempter who will make promises that are not lies and he will let us bury ourselves in our truths.

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Lucifer is the darkness

After lucifer fails to stop the prophecy of the hunted god he goes to hell and vows never to return there again then he leaves to destinys garden where he threatens to take destinys book by force if he needs to and destiny decides it was best to let him have it, after obtaining it lucifer has had enough of existence and he erases himself from the book, and a small group of people who had gifts from lucifer decide to take up his mantle and fool the universe into believing he was still there that way all of space and time did not collapse

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and for a while this worked everything went on as normal until the former hunted god messed things up by being kind to an old lady who believed the devil would come and get her, in doing so the universe breathed a sigh of relief there was no devil and there never had been evil wasnt there. As maze goes on to say she let the universe know the devil isnt as bad as all of that but lucifer was and he had to be, as a result everything, everywhere and at everytime changed at once

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the man who feared the shadow on the wall of the cave decided it was a trick of the light and decided to kill his brother his tribe killing him right after there was a war in heaven but hell would never become what it was.

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and a little girl kills her brother with no conscious

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Things were going to get worse eventually lucifer would be forgotten but the universe needs balance a dark to define the light he was that dark

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not long after these things started to happen the host descend upon maze asking her where lucifer was they must question him about the disappearance of god, but maze just laughed and told them lucifer had done nothing and as a matter of fact it was the case that he never was to begin with and when they question her what this had to do with the presence she replied that perhaps the host ought to look at what made lucifer so different from the rest them what made him what he was.

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and at the implications of that the host left in terror. and it werent long before they sent michael back down to talk with maze and so he does what she tells him is not satisfactory but he learns of his need to talk to destiny and so he does when there he reads upon what lucifer has done and what he must now do so he rounds up duma and remiel who were starving on some street and they head back for the silver city. you see lucifer told maze a joke that without the devil there could be no god

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there was no light without darkness lucifer was need for the presence to exist as a defined entity , there need to be a concept of black against the white for the concept of white to exist at all. lucifer is the concept of black

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and when he was brought back things started to revert themselves and balance was restored right and wrong were apparent and good and evil existed once more.

Geb also depends on the presence

like what was said in the new lucifer run stranger tells us that the shade and light depend upon one another

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What of dark crisis and possible further stories?

well now that we have looked at the evidence and its fairly safe to say that dans words have some weight what about dark crisis or future stories? is lucifer geb within them or will they change that? well as of lucifers current run he is certainly the great darkness in my opinion i think the evidence is all there and it speaks for itself he certainly fits the bill, through and through but will he remain that way to be honest and to be fair i couldnt tell you as of now he still fits the bill, ive seen some say that the new justice league incarnate contradict this with darkseid and the empty hand being apart of geb but this doesnt mean lucifer cannot be geb like geb lucifer is the very concept of black evil itself, and like geb lucifer is a fractional being with many avatars and viewpoints the sandman does not need to list everyone of them remember he has 1000 names and he was been a 1000 different things. so sandman doesnt necessarily need to list them all nor does lucifer need to be specifically mentioned. however this being said everyone has there own voice there own thoughts and ideas as do the authors of dark crisis they have every right to go on record or in book an separate the 2 entities and thats fine hell to the supports of geb being lucifer dont be surprised if within these next few months that whole idea is scrubbed and forgotten or ignored and thats perfectly fine but as of now there is nothing wrong with them being the same. now how about future lucifer stories? say he is retconed into not being geb in dark crisis what about the sandman? well first off so long as the sandman universe continues i am sure you will see him again id be very surprised otherwise I believe it is only a matter of time before he returns. So what happens when he does? well i believe should the line of the sandman universe comics continue and he appears in them i believe you will be met with dans version of the character afterall he is the canon lucifer or i belive you will be met with a version very similar and there is a chance they will still go that route of course they also could go another way only time will tell.

whelp there you have it folks i tried to explain and hopefully make a few people understand the 2 of these characters a tad bit more and hopefully this lessened some confusion. now ill leave you all to decide whither or not the evidence here makes sense if theyre or not if anyone has questions feel free to ask ill do my best to answer

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Great post.

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Thanks

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UltraPhoenix

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@y3kthunder: Darkseid mentioned how the Great Darkness has been lying dormant since the first crisis, but Lucifer appeared in the N52, so how can the GEB still be considered Lucifer? Also the GEB's fight with the Presence happened when the Presence was weakened so I'm guessing the scaling between the two isn't the same as it used to be.

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@ultraphoenix: how is he lying dormant if he is the cause for every other crisis event since the first. Plain and simple geb is supposed to be evil itself unless the author decides to change this and so isnt Lucifer and you have to remember Lucifer isn't his only name. Lucifer has many names because he isn't simply just Lucifer he has been thousands of other things to. Remember his words " I hv lived these tales a thousand times. I have been the monster in a thousand shadows" in Dan's perspective Lucifer is the darkness in us all, he defines all that is bad and therefore all that is right which in essence is what geb does he is the soul of darkness or evil. He is the ultimate dark a story that stands above all others. And may I ask were it said the presence was weakened in his fight with geb? I remember they said the universe or multiverse was but not the presence himself. Who according to both Dan and Carey created the dark though whither or not this will remain is to be seen for sure

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@ultraphoenix: also n52 Lucifer is probably not the actual Lucifer at all and I know exactly what ur thinking muh thunder he is clearly a fallen angel. His name is the exact same they had the same occupation. And what if I said that didn't matter? Well because it doesn't Lucifer is such an important being that is does not matter. According to izagnami and what was confirmed by destiny and Lucifer's 2016 run. Lucifer is so important that it doesn't matter if he leaves his impression stays ppl still have belief in him and will create a dream or belief version to try and fill that void. But in the case of the 2018 run it was a tad bit different but destiny tells us exactly what izagnami told us he maybe gone but our view and belief of him was not

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UltraPhoenix

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@y3kthunder: It was in JL Incarnate #4 where it was mentioned that the GEB took advantage of god's weakened state to attack, it was weakened after the first crisis.

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@ultraphoenix: you are right it does say the light was weakened. And perhaps the scaling between the two isn't the same. Go by Carey and watter the presence is the superior. However you could argue geb is comparable to the light in watters run. No idea if they will go that route within this new event though. Like I've said before do not be surprised if things change a lot within this event hell you should expect it. Geb is getting an actual event where his story was really only a couple of issues way back

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#10  Edited By thopples
@ultraphoenix said:

@y3kthunder: It was in JL Incarnate #4 where it was mentioned that the GEB took advantage of god's weakened state to attack, it was weakened after the first crisis.

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Uh... and who is describing the information given? Who is speaking? What is the context given? By Darkseid who didn't even know he was an avatar of Great Evil Beast and screwed up in his plan to destroy Empty Hand. So is this guy a reliable source to you? No.

This is the part where you need to think somewhat harder than usual. Most of the DC Cosmic characters as of the last few years from Mxy and etc. were deliberately written to talk some big revelation about the cosmology only to end to having usually just being 1/3rd or 1/half accurate about what is really going in the writers' head, and may often be talking out of their ass/ie. their own theories as to what happened and why it did, so that the writers can retcon it later because DC has a "Let's go with the flow and whatever we think works at the time" modality when they write these things.

Great Evil Beast went from a small fragment of the Otherkind or something to becoming the Pupeteer of the whole thing, so who knows what next will change?

Give it at least 1 year or so, then we'll see. Because the notion that the Overvoid gets weakened by the loss of infinite universes is absurd given the vast majority of time the Void is shown as an encompassing transcendent body that preceded it.

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@thopples: Darkseid isn't speaking here, it's Doctor Multiverse, who happened to learn about the battle between the GEB and the Presence, she also knew Swamp Thing helped resolve the conflict despite not being there at all and also described all of the previous crisis events very well.

She's a relibale source because she was literally given her powers from the multiverse itself, when she contained the crack in the multiverse she gained cosmic insight that allowed her to know this, so why isn't she credible?

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Also the GEB wasn't a small fragment of the Otherkind, the writer said they were two seperate beings that are related, only a piece of the GEB has been shown so far (The Empty Hand), which is what Constantine remembered seeing in the Swamp Thing storyline. Nearly all of the appearances of the GEB have just been it's fragments, we haven't seen it's full form, only it's hand battling the hand of god.

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#13  Edited By thopples
@ultraphoenix said:

@thopples: Darkseid isn't speaking here, it's Doctor Multiverse, who happened to learn about the battle between the GEB and the Presence, she also knew Swamp Thing helped resolve the conflict despite not being there at all and also described all of the previous crisis events very well.

Wow, I give it 5 months and half the things here will be retconned again.

She's a relibale source because she was literally given her powers from the multiverse itself, when she contained the crack in the multiverse she gained cosmic insight that allowed her to know this, so why isn't she credible?

She's not fully credible because of lot of cosmic sources waay before this never explained the same thing despite having superior position in the cosmic hierarchy to her and many things do not add up. Not Mxy, not Perpetua, not anyone. Hell, Perpetua is almost forgotten in this story and she was the big bad, and now you need a new big bad so you butcher an old character from a classic tale then you move on to the next retcon.

The point is, saying the Presence got "weakened" here, is highly questionable and is inconsistent with his other portrayals.

And it doesn't change the fact that Lucifer called himself the Great Beast either.

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@thopples:

Wow, I give it 5 months and half the things here will be retconned again.

I mean that could happen, but it's comics, nothing is set in stone, especially DC's cosmology.

She's not fully credible because of lot of cosmic sources waay before this never explained the same thing despite having superior position in the cosmic hierarchy to her and many things do not add up. Not Mxy, not Perpetua, not anyone. Hell, Perpetua is almost forgotten in this story and she was the big bad, and now you need a new big bad so you butcher an old character from a classic tale then you move on to the next retcon.

She's literally absorbed the crack in the multiverse, the same crack that gave the Empty Hand a direct connection to the Great Darkness, it's hard to find a better cosmic source than that, it's literally how the Great Darkness connects to the multiverse. I don't what other sources prior to this had a superior position, Perpetua certainly didn't.

The point is, saying the Presence got "weakened" here, is highly questionable and is inconsistent with his other portrayals.

Or maybe it just got retconned? After all the Presence has shown some sorts of limitations before, so him being weakened isn't exactly impossible. Lucifer has built

And it doesn't change the fact that Lucifer called himself the Great Beast either.

I never said it changes that fact, although it might later on who knows.

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#15  Edited By thopples
@ultraphoenix said:

@thopples:

She's literally absorbed the crack in the multiverse, the same crack that gave the Empty Hand a direct connection to the Great Darkness, it's hard to find a better cosmic source than that, it's literally how the Great Darkness connects to the multiverse. I don't what other sources prior to this had a superior position, Perpetua certainly didn't.

You realize that Perpetua is one of the Demiurges of the DC Multiverse (Yahweh's Creation) right? And her power directly comes from the Presence, and not only that, she created her sons by tearing fragments off of the Overvoid/Presence/Source/whatever-the-hell-these-authors-call-him-nowadays. That's far superior than anything Dr. Multiverse got.

How does Perpetua have inferior connection to the Presence? Wait no, how does Lucifer for example have inferior connection to the Presence about the state of affairs?

Or maybe it just got retconned? After all the Presence has shown some sorts of limitations before, so him being weakened isn't exactly impossible. Lucifer has built

Or or or or or..... stop literally believing everything from new material out of nowhere that passes up when it like contradicts 99% of the character's portrayal across like, 3 authors with major profound effects on our perception of the Presence. Take only the things that are consistent with the big 3, Matteis, Ostrander and M. Carey (all these three are still officially canon) and take Dr. Multiverse's statements with a half graint of salt, give it couple of years and if it sticks far more longer as a fact, then you may have a point. But till then.

And what are these limitations? That fake Presence that got killed by Gabriel who Lucifer stated to not really be Yahweh, and the Author of that story confirmed it?

That some realms in his Creation are out of his influence even though he clearly demonstrated that he can overturn this obviously self-imposed limitation when he almost destroyed his own Multiverse?

That Presence is fundamentally a manifestation of Dreams even though the Presence demonstrated an aspect of his exists outside of Dream space-time retcons in Sandman Overture and that Mother Night and Father Time are just functions in his Creation and that Dream of the Endless repeatedly purports to the Presence's superiority to him? Let's be real, the Presence literally left Creation proving that any time "Dreams" shape his personality is something he allows upon himself in part, otherwise Lucifer should have disappeared into non-existence when he left Yahweh's Creation because nobody in his Multiverse believes his existence and Destiny of the Endless has little influence there!

What if I told you the Presence appears quite often in Matteis's stories, who genuinely believes the Presence to be truly Omnipotent and an all-encompassing entity who dreams all of Existence. If there's even 1-3+ authors in DC who believe Presence to be genuinely Omnipotent, then we can inference that any anti-feat on the Presence is an illusion/self-imposed unless DC fires all those authors and officially decanonizes them.

Let me tell you something, Yahweh? Has literally vacated the DC Multiverse since Mike Carey's Lucifer. If you want to talk to the Presence, you talk to Elaine Belloc.

But literally nothing in this "Presence being weakened" makes sense because that Yahweh-Multiverse is just one among the infinite other Multiverses that rise and fall in the Presence's infinite void body, and it is highly illogical that the Overvoid/Presence is contingent on that 1 small Multiverse when there are like infinitely many other.

At best, maybe a weak aspect of the Presence was weakened, but not his fundamental all-encompassing self and that is as far as you can say.

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#16  Edited By UltraPhoenix

@thopples:

You realize that Perpetua is one of the Demiurges of the DC Multiverse (Yahweh's Creation) right? And her power directly comes from the Presence, and not only that, she created her sons by tearing fragments off of the Overvoid/Presence/Source/whatever-the-hell-these-authors-call-him-nowadays. That's far superior than anything Dr. Multiverse got.

Doctor Multiverse has a connection to the GEB.

How does Perpetua have inferior connection to the Presence? Wait no, how does Lucifer for example have inferior connection to the Presence about the state of affairs?

I never said Lucifer had an inferior connection, where did you get that idea? Perpetua was banished by the Judges of the Source, and was just one of many involved in creating multiverses, whereas Dr. Multiverse absobred the connection to the GEB (the crack in the multiverse).

Or maybe it just got retconned? After all the Presence has shown some sorts of limitations before, so him being weakened isn't exactly impossible. Lucifer has built

Or or or or or..... stop literally believing everything from new material out of nowhere that passes up when it like contradicts 99% of the character's portrayal across like, 3 authors with major profound effects on our perception of the Presence. Take only the things that are consistent with the big 3, Matteis, Ostrander and M. Carey (all these three are still officially canon) and take Dr. Multiverse's statements with a half graint of salt, give it couple of years and if it sticks far more longer as a fact, then you may have a point. But till then.

Why should I stop believing it if that's the latest information? If it changes then I'll follow the new material, it's that simple. Also it's not just Dr. Multiverse's statements, she literally has cosmic knowledge from the crack in the multiverse, which is the GEB's connection, that's not just some random character statement.

And what are these limitations? That fake Presence that got killed by Gabriel who Lucifer stated to not really be Yahweh, and the Author of that story confirmed it?

Like Lucifer building a multiverse outside of the Presence's reach, which is literally mentioned in this thread by the OP.

That some realms in his Creation are out of his influence even though he clearly demonstrated that he can overturn this obviously self-imposed limitation when he almost destroyed his own Multiverse?

If it's outside his influence then that's a pretty clear limitation, or the Presence mentioning things that predate it. Obviously Presence can destroy it's own multiverse, but what bearing does that hold on other realms outside his influence?

That Presence is fundamentally a manifestation of Dreams even though the Presence demonstrated an aspect of his exists outside of Dream space-time retcons in Sandman Overture and that Mother Night and Father Time are just functions in his Creation and that Dream of the Endless repeatedly purports to the Presence's superiority to him? Let's be real, the Presence literally left Creation proving that any time "Dreams" shape his personality is something he allows upon himself in part, otherwise Lucifer should have disappeared into non-existence when he left Yahweh's Creation because nobody in his Multiverse believes his existence and Destiny of the Endless has little influence there!

What if I told you the Presence appears quite often in Matteis's stories, who genuinely believes the Presence to be truly Omnipotent and an all-encompassing entity who dreams all of Existence. If there's even 1-3+ authors in DC who believe Presence to be genuinely Omnipotent, then we can inference that any anti-feat on the Presence is an illusion/self-imposed unless DC fires all those authors and officially decanonizes them.

Just the fact that the Presence stalemated the GEB should be a limitation already, also the fact that it was weakened, and that's coming from the GEB. You can't just disregard sources if they disagree with you.

Let me tell you something, Yahweh? Has literally vacated the DC Multiverse since Mike Carey's Lucifer. If you want to talk to the Presence, you talk to Elaine Belloc.

But literally nothing in this "Presence being weakened" makes sense because that Yahweh-Multiverse is just one among the infinite other Multiverses that rise and fall in the Presence's infinite void body, and it is highly illogical that the Overvoid/Presence is contingent on that 1 small Multiverse when there are like infinitely many other.

There weren't infinite multiverses during the Crisis so I don't see how this applies.

At best, maybe a weak aspect of the Presence was weakened, but not his fundamental all-encompassing self and that is as far as you can say.

I'm saying what's stated in the comic, the "Light" was weakened, and this is coming from someone who's connected to the GEB via the crack.

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#17  Edited By thopples
@ultraphoenix said:

@thopples:

You realize that Perpetua is one of the Demiurges of the DC Multiverse (Yahweh's Creation) right? And her power directly comes from the Presence, and not only that, she created her sons by tearing fragments off of the Overvoid/Presence/Source/whatever-the-hell-these-authors-call-him-nowadays. That's far superior than anything Dr. Multiverse got.

Doctor Multiverse has a connection to the GEB.

Who you admitted was weaker than even just a manifestation of the Presence, the Voice. Interestingly enough, the God of the Heavens in the GEB-storyline wasn't even called the Presence, but the Voice, another aspect of the Presence.

So if GEB is equal to a weakened the Voice, an aspect of the Presence, which is a superior connection then? The far more powerful Presence or GEB who is only equal to a weakened aspect of the Presence?

So how is it even comparable?

I never said Lucifer had an inferior connection, where did you get that idea? Perpetua was banished by the Judges of the Source, and was just one of many involved in creating multiverses, whereas Dr. Multiverse absobred the connection to the GEB (the crack in the multiverse).

How does being banished by the Source mean that manipulating literally parts of the Overvoid to create Multiverses and being directly charged by the Presence to create Multiverses, isn't inherently superior to just having a connection to a crack to said Multiverse (that only rivalled an aspect of the Presence) that Perpetua helped create?

You're not making sense.

Why should I stop believing it if that's the latest information? If it changes then I'll follow the new material, it's that simple. Also it's not just Dr. Multiverse's statements, she literally has cosmic knowledge from the crack in the multiverse, which is the GEB's connection, that's not just some random character statement.

Because that "latest information" is a hilariously stupid outlier, not set in stone, one in the new series of things that was retconned in the last few years and doesn't have the same amount of establishment of the long history of the Presence, literally any new information can be retconned literally tomorrow and doesn't hold as much weight nor credibility from a statistical standpoint and an objective standpoint. And even then, we can easily avoid the anti-feat by declaring that only an aspect of the Presence that was weakened was just the Voice since the Presence exceeds infinitely many multiverses, not just 1 multiverse.

It doesn't have nearly the same credibility as the previous stuff we saw when we disregard dating.

Like Lucifer building a multiverse outside of the Presence's reach, which is literally mentioned in this thread by the OP.

You realize that the only reason why Lucifer was able to build his multiverse is because he gained access to the Void because of an Imprint created by the Presence yes? The Presence literally handed access to the Void where Lucifer can later use as a canvas for his Creation.

The Presence can easily destroy Lucifer any time he wants, take power over the dimensional gates he created that was necessary to access Lucifer's creation, any time he wants, and immediately take his Creation for himself by force, (the Presence has the power to traverse the Void) he simply doesn't by choice, as with many things the Presence does.

If it's outside his influence then that's a pretty clear limitation, or the Presence mentioning things that predate it. Obviously Presence can destroy it's own multiverse, but what bearing does that hold on other realms outside his influence?

You realize that the Presence also almost destroyed Elaine's and Lucifer's creations yes? Not just his own? When he was threatening to destroy Creation, that also included Lucifer's and Elaine's. And that under Presence's power bestowal, Elaine was able to merge Lucifer, Yahweh's and Elaine's creations and gain power over them, yes?

That already dispels any notion that the Presence's lack of influence in certain Creations is nothing more than a choice of a degree of inaction, until he showed up and almost threatened to destroy even Lucifer's and Elaine's Creation.

Literally speaking, it was Yahweh's Dimensional Gates that saved the 3 Creations, Lucifer's included, so why would Presence be unable to affect Lucifer's Creation if he so chooses if his gates can access it, and he almost destroyed it to a degree as it never existed?

Just the fact that the Presence stalemated the GEB should be a limitation already, also the fact that it was weakened, and that's coming from the GEB. You can't just disregard sources if they disagree with you.

GEB stalemated the Voice, not the Presence. The Presence can easily destroy Creation as he demonstrated, and he is the one dreaming Universes into existence in the Matteis canon, meanwhile GEB is just a crack, divided amongst many avatars that must reunified to even be able to destroy Creation.

So who has the superior feats? It's literally obvious that even Presence stalemating GEB was just foul play, the Presence only keeps GEB around for Theodicy, nothing more, nothing less.

The Presence literally wipes his ass with GEB, and Lucifer, anything else is just the Presence withholding his power because his other best feats and most iconic showings demonstrate it.

There weren't infinite multiverses during the Crisis so I don't see how this applies.

There are Infinite Multiverses floating in the Presence's Overvoid body now for like a long time, making it completely illogical that the fundamental aspect of the Presence in the Void is contingent on literally just 1 multiverse.

So how does this argument even help you even in the slightest????

I'm saying what's stated in the comic, the "Light" was weakened, and this is coming from someone who's connected to the GEB via the crack.

Yeah, and I'm saying to take that shit with half a grain of salt, be objective, look at the Presence's history from a hollistic standpoint, look at his demonstrated feats, he has superior control over Multiverses to literally all the other characters mentioned and see with a guideline that your interpretation is literally inconsistent if we average the Presence's showings? Your interpretation is ridiculous lowball and we can easily dismiss it as another aspect of the Presence that may likely just be withholding himself again because the Presence does this everytime, it's in his character.

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@thopples:

Who you admitted was weaker than even just a manifestation of the Presence, the Voice. Interestingly enough, the God of the Heavens in the GEB-storyline wasn't even called the Presence, but the Voice, another aspect of the Presence.

When did I admit the GEB was weaker than a manifestation of the Presence? Also can you prove that the Light that fought GEB was merely an aspect? Because JL Incarnate makes it pretty clear the Light has been there since the beginning in a long battle.

So if GEB is equal to a weakened the Voice, an aspect of the Presence, which is a superior connection then? The far more powerful Presence or GEB who is only equal to a weakened aspect of the Presence?

So how is it even comparable?

I never said the GEB is equal to the Presence, all I initially said was that the Light was weakened, the same light involved in the creation of the multiverse.

How does being banished by the Source mean that manipulating literally parts of the Overvoid to create Multiverses and being directly charged by the Presence to create Multiverses, isn't inherently superior to just having a connection to a crack to said Multiverse (that only rivalled an aspect of the Presence) that Perpetua helped create?

You're not making sense.

How is being connected to the very thing that fought the Light not a valid source? Perpetua gathering energy from the Presence doesn't suddenly make her aware of all the things the Presence knows, unlike the GEB that was involved with a battle with the Presence since the beginning.

Because that "latest information" is a hilariously stupid outlier, not set in stone, one in the new series of things that was retconned in the last few years and doesn't have the same amount of establishment of the long history of the Presence, literally any new information can be retconned literally tomorrow and doesn't hold as much weight nor credibility from a statistical standpoint and an objective standpoint.

It doesn't have nearly the same credibility as the previous stuff we saw when we disregard dating.

If by your reasoning it's just an aspect of the Presence, then what's the issue? How's it an outlier? Unless you think the aspect of the Presence is equal to the actual Presence?

You realize that the only reason why Lucifer was able to build his multiverse is because he gained access to the Void because of an Imprint created by the Presence yes? The Presence literally handed access to the Void where Lucifer can later use as a canvas for his Creation.

The Presence can easily destroy Lucifer any time he wants, take power over the dimensional gates he created that was necessary to access Lucifer's creation, any time he wants, and immediately take his Creation for himself by force, (the Presence has the power to traverse the Void) he simply doesn't by choice, as with many things the Presence does.

So the Presence just simply chose to be weakened after the battle with GEB? Sounds like you're saying two different things, the Presence either chose to let these things happen or it was just an aspect of the Presence all along.

You realize that the Presence also almost destroyed Elaine's and Lucifer's creations yes? Not just his own? When he was threatening to destroy Creation, that also included Lucifer's and Elaine's. And that under Presence's power bestowal, Elaine was able to merge Lucifer, Yahweh's and Elaine's creations and gain power over them, yes?

That already dispels any notion that the Presence's lack of influence in certain Creations is nothing more than a choice of a degree of inaction, until he showed up and almost threatened to destroy even Lucifer's and Elaine's Creation.

Literally speaking, it was Yahweh's Dimensional Gates that saved the 3 Creations, Lucifer's included, so why would Presence be unable to affect Lucifer's Creation if he so chooses if his gates can access it, and he almost destroyed it to a degree as it never existed?

Why would he impose limitation on himself then?

GEB stalemated the Voice, not the Presence. The Presence can easily destroy Creation as he demonstrated, and he is the one dreaming Universes into existence in the Matteis canon, meanwhile GEB is just a crack, divided amongst many avatars that must reunified to even be able to destroy Creation.

So who has the superior feats? It's literally obvious that even Presence stalemating GEB was just foul play, the Presence only keeps GEB around for Theodicy, nothing more, nothing less.

The Presence literally wipes his ass with GEB, and Lucifer, anything else is just the Presence withholding his power because his other best feats and most iconic showings demonstrate it.

So he's superior yet he stalemated and had a truce? This just sounds like cope, if he's superior he would've gotten rid of it, there would be no flaw in the Light, no weakness either.

There are Infinite Multiverses floating in the Presence's Overvoid body now for like a long time, making it completely illogical that the fundamental aspect of the Presence in the Void is contingent on literally just 1 multiverse.

So how does this argument even help you even in the slightest????

There weren't infinite multiverses during the time of COIE, and if the aspect of the Presence is weakened then what's the issue? Is the aspect as strong as the real thing?

Yeah, and I'm saying to take that shit with half a grain of salt, be objective, look at the Presence's history from a hollistic standpoint, look at his demonstrated feats, he has superior control over Multiverses to literally all the other characters mentioned and see with a guideline that your interpretation is literally inconsistent if we average the Presence's showings? Your interpretation is ridiculous lowball and we can easily dismiss it as another aspect of the Presence that may likely just be withholding himself again because the Presence does this everytime, it's in his character.

I'm taking the GEB's words for what it is, unless now you want to discard it's words for whatever reason, are you going to hold that logic for Lucifer's other statements as well?

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#19  Edited By thopples

When did I admit the GEB was weaker than a manifestation of the Presence? Also can you prove that the Light that fought GEB was merely an aspect? Because JL Incarnate makes it pretty clear the Light has been there since the beginning in a long battle.

No, I mean that you admitted that GEB equalled only a weaker manifestation of the Presence earlier.

How is being connected to the very thing that fought the Light not a valid source? Perpetua gathering energy from the Presence doesn't suddenly make her aware of all the things the Presence knows, unlike the GEB that was involved with a battle with the Presence since the beginning.

You mean GEB was involved with a battle with an aspect of the Presence from the very beginning? You realize that the GEB/Presence conflict involves just Yahweh's main multiverse yes? It doesn't really concern other Multiverses, hell, Lucifer demonstrated superior feats to whatever GEB is doing right now.

If by your reasoning it's just an aspect of the Presence, then what's the issue? How's it an outlier? Unless you think the aspect of the Presence is equal to the actual Presence?

Of course not, there were other aspects of the Presence that got snubbed that maybe your average multiversal reality warper can stomp, like the Word or maybe not.

So the Presence just simply chose to be weakened after the battle with GEB? Sounds like you're saying two different things, the Presence either chose to let these things happen or it was just an aspect of the Presence all along.

So he's superior yet he stalemated and had a truce? This just sounds like cope, if he's superior he would've gotten rid of it, there would be no flaw in the Light, no weakness either.

How are these two things incompatible? The Presence chose to let an aspect of himself be weakened for the sake of Theodicy against GEB, his aspects have an autonomous existence from him, by definition of just being an inferior aspect. That is a consistent most likely conclusion to draw.

You're the one coping if you think the Presence doesn't do this. He has aspects of himself that are demonstrably inferior to him in power, like the Word.

There weren't infinite multiverses during the time of COIE, and if the aspect of the Presence is weakened then what's the issue? Is the aspect as strong as the real thing?

The Spectre is an aspect of the Presence, he is inferior to the Presence and his power is directly from him. The Word is an aspect of the Presence that got curbed with prep by Swamp Thing.

What makes you think the Voice vs GEB situation isn't similar? Again, you realize that this new DC "cosmic doomsday event of the day" yet again, is really just concerned with only 1 local multiverse and doesn't even begin to extend to the infinitely other multiverses.

GEB's influence is easily contained and honestly, at the most fundamental level, the Presence doesn't even notice GEB and Pralaya who has superior feats to GEB is just an aspect of the Presence's unconsciousness.

Why would he impose limitation on himself then?

By definition, all Omnipotents and Supreme Beings have self-imposed limitations, ie. withholding their power, choosing not to do things this and that by choice, in their involvement in things lest you want a creation where every living being in existence is one hive mind of the Omnipotent. None of this really matters anyway, since every Creation is encompassed by the Presence's body, so his direct involvement in things, here and there is purely by choice.

Supreme Beings aim to experiment with free will, probability, theodicy, that kind of shtick, and you literally do not need me to explain this to you.

I'm taking the GEB's words for what it is, unless now you want to discard it's words for whatever reason, are you going to hold that logic for Lucifer's other statements as well?

Careful not to give me any ideas. Lest you want me to demonstrate to you scans about how the Great Evil Beast became the primal representative power of Hell in an old Swamp Thing scan, how Lucifer being Yahweh's shadow as the opposite of the Presence's light (meaning there must be an association between Lucifer and GEB) in Sandman and the M. Carey Lucifer, these things likely leading up to why Lucifer was associated or equated with GEB in the first place.

You realize that the Presence, at least an aspect of him, is contingent on the concept of darkness, that just so happened to be Lucifer who now is the new stand-in for GEB's function in the newer Lucifer comic. It's not simple "statements" anymore, Lucifer literally replaced GEB in the new Lucifer comic that is still somehow canon to everything else. You don't even read the scans in this thread.

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#20  Edited By UltraPhoenix

@thopples:

You mean GEB was involved with a battle with an aspect of the Presence from the very beginning? You realize that the GEB/Presence conflict involves just Yahweh's main multiverse yes? It doesn't really concern other Multiverses, hell, Lucifer demonstrated superior feats to whatever GEB is doing right now.

Do you have evidence that the Light is just an aspect of the Presence? And you can prove if it's the same level as the Presence or not?

Of course not, there were other aspects of the Presence that got snubbed that maybe your average multiversal reality warper can stomp, like the Word or maybe not.

So then what's the issue with what's happening in the story? Assuming it's an aspect.

How are these two things incompatible? The Presence chose to let an aspect of himself be weakened for the sake of Theodicy against GEB, his aspects have an autonomous existence from him, by definition of just being an inferior aspect. That is a consistent most likely conclusion to draw.

You're the one coping if you think the Presence doesn't do this. He has aspects of himself that are demonstrably inferior to him in power, like the Word.

So can prove that the Presence creates aspects and that they are designed to be weaker?

The Spectre is an aspect of the Presence, he is inferior to the Presence and his power is directly from him. The Word is an aspect of the Presence that got curbed with prep by Swamp Thing.

What makes you think the Voice vs GEB situation isn't similar? Again, you realize that this new DC "cosmic doomsday event of the day" yet again, is really just concerned with only 1 local multiverse and doesn't even begin to extend to the infinitely other multiverses.

GEB's influence is easily contained and honestly, at the most fundamental level, the Presence doesn't even notice GEB and Pralaya who has superior feats to GEB is just an aspect of the Presence's unconsciousness.

Once again what evidence is there that the Light is just an aspect of the Presence, or that it's somehow weaker?

Careful not to give me any ideas. Lest you want me to demonstrate to you scans about how the Great Evil Beast became the primal representative power of Hell in an old Swamp Thing scan, how Lucifer being Yahweh's shadow as the opposite of the Presence's light (meaning there must be an association between Lucifer and GEB) in Sandman and the M. Carey Lucifer, these things likely leading up to why Lucifer was associated or equated with GEB in the first place.

You realize that the Presence, at least an aspect of him, is contingent on the concept of darkness, that just so happened to be Lucifer who now is the new stand-in for GEB's function in the newer Lucifer comic. It's not simple "statements" anymore, Lucifer literally replaced GEB in the new Lucifer comic that is still somehow canon to everything else. You don't even read the scans in this thread.

This doesn't answer my question, if the GEB cannot be trusted in retelling things then why should Lucifer (who by your own admission replaced the GEB) be trusted?

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#21  Edited By thopples

Do you have evidence that the Light is just an aspect of the Presence? And you can prove if it's the same level as the Presence or not?

So can prove that the Presence creates aspects and that they are designed to be weaker?

Once again what evidence is there that the Light is just an aspect of the Presence, or that it's somehow weaker?

Grant Morrison's map has you the Voice limited to the Sphere of the Gods, whereas many other depictions of the Presence place him at the Void. GEB stalemated a weakened Voice, you can literally read the original story and see it was the Voice that GEB fought.

By logical induction from a hollistic analysis of the Presence's feats, the Presence is hilariously beyond GEB by feats in so many works that to place the Presence on the same level as GEB who needs a shit ton of prep to destroy 1 Multiverse is asinine, so they are not on the same level, so the way to make this consistent is that GEB is just fighting an inferior aspect of the Presence, and it's consistent with the explanation that GEB explicitly never fought the Presence, but the Voice.

The light can be interpreted as existing in different levels, the Overvoid, the Source, the Presence, the Voice, etc. and the Morrison Map demonstrates this, in different levels of existence and therefore implied different power levels.

In fact, when the Presence left Creation in Lucifer, why didn't the Great Evil Beast do anything to destroy Creation now that the Presence was gone, and GEB could destroy everything unopposed? This is another demonstration of GEB's inferiority to the Presence as he is still weakened even when Presence isn't around.

So then what's the issue with what's happening in the story? Assuming it's an aspect.

Nothing I guess, you helped me realize that. Thanks

This doesn't answer my question, if the GEB cannot be trusted in retelling things then why should Lucifer (who by your own admission replaced the GEB) be trusted?

You're not listening. The Presence's light ceases to exist in Creation when Lucifer is not around, meaning the darkness that opposes the Presence is Lucifer, so Lucifer strongly demonstrated a light/dark dichotomy between the Presence, otherwise the plot of the last Lucifer volume doesn't make any sense and holds far more weight but wait,

This doesn't matter anyway as GEB is only fighting an aspect of the Presence, the Voice, who is demonstrably inferior to the real Presence in many of his other showings.

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@thopples:

Grant Morrison's map has you the Voice limited to the Sphere of the Gods, whereas many other depictions of the Presence place him at the Void. GEB stalemated a weakened Voice, you can literally read the original story and see it was the Voice that GEB fought.

The story mentions it was the Dark vs the Light, where was the Voice ever brought up?

By logical induction from a hollistic analysis of the Presence's feats, the Presence is hilariously beyond GEB by feats in so many works that to place the Presence on the same level as GEB who needs a shit ton of prep to destroy 1 Multiverse is asinine, so they are not on the same level, so the way to make this consistent is that GEB is just fighting an inferior aspect of the Presence, and it's consistent with the explanation that GEB explicitly never fought the Presence, but the Voice.

The light can be interpreted as existing in different levels, the Overvoid, the Source, the Presence, the Voice, etc. and the Morrison Map demonstrates this.

In fact, when the Presence left Creation in Lucifer, why didn't the Great Evil Beast do anything to destroy Creation now that the Presence was gone, and GEB could destroy everything unopposed? This is another demonstration of GEB's inferiority to the Presence.

Once again where was the Voice ever brought up in the battle with GEB? And if the GEB is so much inferior then the Presence wouldn't even need to send it's so called aspects to fight.

Nothing I guess, you helped me realize that. Thanks

Glad we can at least agree that this battle actually transpired in the story, aspect or not.

You're not listening. The Presence's light ceases to exist in Creation when Lucifer is not around, meaning the darkness that opposes the Presence is Lucifer, so Lucifer strongly demonstrated a light/dark dichotomy between the Presence, otherwise the plot of the last Lucifer volume doesn't make any sense and holds far more weight but wait,

This doesn't matter anyway as GEB is only fighting an aspect of the Presence, the Voice, who is demonstrably inferior to the real Presence in many of his other showings.

Yes and it's mentioned how this light/dark dichotomy led to the creation of the multiverse, so was the voice responsible for the creation?

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@thopples:

Grant Morrison's map has you the Voice limited to the Sphere of the Gods, whereas many other depictions of the Presence place him at the Void. GEB stalemated a weakened Voice, you can literally read the original story and see it was the Voice that GEB fought.

The story mentions it was the Dark vs the Light, where was the Voice ever brought up?

You do realize that the Voice and the Light were literally interchangeable in the original GEB storyline right?

The entire description of the Light vs Dark push-pull is all literally demonstrated to be a thing to the local DC Multiverse, not to all the other infinitely unseen and unexplored multiverses.

Once again where was the Voice ever brought up in the battle with GEB?

See the original GEB storyline where it is explicitly the Voice, not the Presence that GEB fought.

And if the GEB is so much inferior then the Presence wouldn't even need to send it's so called aspects to fight.

That Presence sends it's aspects to fight instead of doing it directly on his own implies that GEB is beneath the Presence. The Presence is superior to all his aspects, so if he sends his aspects to fight, that implies Presence sees GEB as inferior because he is by feats and he doesn't see them as a threat.

GEB didn't do shit to Creation when Presence left it in Lucifer, and the Presence is strongly implied to transcend light and darkness in Matteis storylines.

You said it yourself, GEB is just a crack in the Multiverse yes? Well, Presence almost destroyed said Multiverse that contained GEB and handed control over it to Elaine Belloc who reigned unopposed.

Now what?

Yes and it's mentioned how this light/dark dichotomy led to the creation of the multiverse, so was the voice responsible for the creation?

The Voice is just 1 aspect of the Presence settled in just 1 Multiverse, depends on your view.

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@thopples:

You do realize that the Voice and the Light were literally interchangeable in the original GEB storyline right?

The entire description of the Light vs Dark push-pull is all literally demonstrated to be a thing to the local DC Multiverse, not to all the other infinitely unseen and unexplored multiverses.

See the original GEB storyline where it is explicitly the Voice, not the Presence that GEB fought.

I did read it, it's Swamp Thing Vol 2 #49-50, they keep mentioning the Light but not the "Voice", so I'm asking you for evidence of this claim.

That Presence sends it's aspects to fight instead of doing it directly on his own implies that GEB is beneath the Presence. The Presence is superior to all his aspects, so if he sends his aspects to fight, that implies Presence sees GEB as inferior because he is by feats and he doesn't see them as a threat.

If he doesn't see him as a threat then why does he send anything in the first place?

GEB didn't do shit to Creation when Presence left it in Lucifer, and the Presence is strongly implied to transcend light and darkness in Matteis storylines.

You said it yourself, GEB is just a crack in the Multiverse yes? Well, Presence almost destroyed said Multiverse that contained GEB and handed control over it to Elaine Belloc who reigned unopposed.

The GEB retreated into hell after the fight, and went into a slumber, JL Incarnate literally explains this, so that's why it didn't do anything, although it's influence did cause other Crisis events and they certainly changed the multiverse so in a way he did actually do something to creation, and the Presence/Voice didn't really do anything in those scenarios.

The Voice is just 1 aspect of the Presence settled in just 1 Multiverse, depends on your view.

Ok so then can you provide evidence that the Voice was the Light all along?

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#25  Edited By thopples

I did read it, it's Swamp Thing Vol 2 #49-50, they keep mentioning the Light but not the "Voice", so I'm asking you for evidence of this claim.

https://readcomiconline.li/Comic/Swamp-Thing-1982/Issue-50?id=3513#28

No Caption Provided

"By the Voice that speaks in all things"

"It does not speak in me"

"That Great Voice"

If he doesn't see him as a threat then why does he send anything in the first place?

To keep the balance between light and darkness, good and evil, that same old shtick for an Omnipotent who allows evil to exist so that good can exist, as good and evil define each other.

That's why the Presence created Lucifer, so that the concept of darkness and evil can define light and goodness and vice versa, that's the literal plot of the latest Lucifer comic.

Basically, your arguments here redound to that Omnipotents shouldn't do anything unless completely solve all problems otherwise they are not Omnipotent if they do something not absolute, this is a fallacious dishonest argument.

I already addressed to you that if an Omnipotent solved literally everyone's problems, everyone would have to be a hivemind of an Omnipotent, then what would the point be in creating life?

It's hilarious that you don't see how fallacious of a cope your arguments are.

I mean, you actually expect the Presence to for example, prevent the death of Batman's parents, otherwise he's not Omnipotent? What's with you?

Theodicy. GEB, Lucifer, etc. all the baddies are beneath the Presence but he keeps them around for theodicy.

The GEB retreated into hell after the fight, and went into a slumber, JL Incarnate literally explains this, so that's why it didn't do anything, although it's influence did cause other Crisis events and they certainly changed the multiverse so in a way he did actually do something to creation, and the Presence/Voice didn't really do anything in those scenarios.

That implies GEB is weaker than the Presence since GEB retreated.

You... do realize that Lucifer literally kicked everyone out of Hell empty, and surrendered Hell to Dream of the Endless yes? So GEB wasn't there. You really think that GEB retreated to Hell when it was demonstrated that Hell was empty, right? And even if this argument made a lick of sense, the Presence could have easily also destroyed Hell, everything will have been as though there were nothing ever, GEB included.

Regardless, Elaine Belloc demonstrated that she was in full charge in all the realms, Heaven and Hell included, the 3 Multiverses, so GEB is literally fodder to ELAINE, she has superior feats to GEB and was redefining the afterlives' functions across Creation.

Also, if you are arguing that GEB retreated to Hell, how would GEB be really comparable to the Presence in power if the Presence exceeds infinitely more multiverses while GEB is limited to just Hell? Weakened and dormant?

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@thopples: How does that scan imply that the Light is the voice? It says the great voice speaks in all things (except GEB) but it doesn't mention the Light's connection to this voice. Which is also kind of funny since the Voice apparently isn't powerful enough to influence the GEB.

If the Presence wanted balance to exist then the GEB wouldn't be capable of operating outside it's slumber, it could still influence people enough to overthrow the multiverse and weaken the Light. What sort of balance is there if one side can disrupt it so often? What's silly is to allow the GEB to cause all these crisis events, because that's disrupting the balance not maintaining it lol.

Also GEB did retreat into hell and became a sea, it happened in one the issues of the Demon, and I never said he's stronger than the Presence, all I've been saying is that COIE left the Light weakened.

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#27  Edited By thopples
@ultraphoenix said:

@thopples: How does that scan imply that the Light is the voice? It says the great voice speaks in all things (except GEB) but it doesn't mention the Light's connection to this voice. Which is also kind of funny since the Voice apparently isn't powerful enough to influence the GEB.

Except up to this point, and before all this, the Spectre ALWAYS calls the God in the Judeo-Christian Heaven as "the Voice".

The Light is the Voice and the Voice is the Light, what evidence do you have they are distinct entities when they are synonymous beings to the Spectre for even decades before this?

If the Presence wanted balance to exist then the GEB wouldn't be capable of operating outside it's slumber, it could still influence people enough to overthrow the multiverse and weaken the Light. What sort of balance is there if one side can disrupt it so often? What's silly is to allow the GEB to cause all these crisis events, because that's disrupting the balance not maintaining it lol.

Because Plot? It's pretty boring if no multiversal crisis happens these days. And the Presence still exceeds infinitely many other creations, and GEB is limited to disrupting just one. If anything, the balance is so hilariously tipped in the Presence's favor, it seems he keeps GEB around for the lulz. So yeah, you're right there is no balance, but the pretense of one as the Presence trolls GEB into thinking he's relevant at all and can blink the GEB anytime he wants, the same with Lucifer.

And as I said, everything here applies to the Voice as the one being really weakened as the Voice is limited to the Sphere of the Gods and is the aspect of the Presence spoken of in the GEB storyline and all Spectre issues to that point.

In Lucifer, we know the Presence almost destroyed 3 Multiverses, including GEB himself and Hell, Presence was almost gonna do greater Multiversal destruction than GEB constantly failed with prep, until he was convinced not to. The Presence saw no consequence of this to himself and therefore Multiversal Destruction/Imbalance doesn't weaken the Presence because of his feats in Lucifer, in fact, his absence weakens it, he is not dependent on the Multiverse but the other way around, therefore anything being weakened is just the Voice.

Also GEB did retreat into hell and became a sea, it happened in one the issues of the Demon, and I never said he's stronger than the Presence, all I've been saying is that COIE left the Light weakened.

It left the Voice of SOG/Heaven weakened. The Presence has infinitely many other multiverses he controls, while again, GEB is disrupting only one, if any part of the Presence is affected, it's an infinitesimal portion of himself that redounds to zero, so the Presence isn't being weakened but just an aspect of himself as his scope is infinitely greater than GEB.

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@thopples:

Except up to this point, and before all this, the Spectre ALWAYS calls the God in the Judeo-Christian Heaven as "the Voice".

The Light is the Voice and the Voice is the Light, what evidence do you have they are distinct entities when they are synonymous beings to the Spectre for even decades before this?

When has Spectre ever called the Light the Voice? And does he consider the Voice to be God itself? Because that would contradict the Light being an aspect if the Spectre refers to the Voice as the Presence itself. You're the one who made the claim that the Light is just an aspect of the Presence, but you haven't even given evidence that the Light is related to the Voice in any way.

Because Plot? It's pretty boring if no multiversal crisis happens these days. And the Presence still exceeds infinitely many other creations, and GEB is limited to disrupting just one. If anything, the balance is so hilariously tipped in the Presence's favor, it seems he keeps GEB around for the lulz. So yeah, you're right there is no balance, but the pretense of one as the Presence trolls GEB into thinking he's relevant at all and can blink the GEB anytime he wants, the same with Lucifer.

No it's actually pretty lame that there's a new crisis happening so often, Marvel doesn't need to do so many reboots and Crisis events, why does DC? In fact in nearly all of these Crisis events the aspects of God like Spectre are useless and end up dying to the next big villain, there's no balance being kept if the forces of God suck at their job, it's almost always the other heroes who avert these crisis events.

And as I said, everything here applies to the Voice as the one being really weakened as the Voice is limited to the Sphere of the Gods and is the aspect of the Presence spoken of in the GEB storyline and all Spectre issues to that point.

If the Voice is limited to the Sphere of Gods then it wouldn't be the same as the Light, because as we've seen the Light has literally been there before the SOG even existed, it was responsible for the creation of the multiverse and Morrison's map no longer applies to this new cosmology anyways since there's no longer a source wall.

In Lucifer, we know the Presence almost destroyed 3 Multiverses, including GEB himself and Hell, Presence was almost gonna do greater Multiversal destruction than GEB constantly failed with prep, until he was convinced not to. The Presence saw no consequence of this to himself and therefore Multiversal Destruction/Imbalance doesn't weaken the Presence because of his feats in Lucifer, in fact, his absence weakens it, he is not dependent on the Multiverse but the other way around, therefore anything being weakened is just the Voice.

Well the Light is clearly weakened by this, and so far you haven't actually given any evidence that the Light and the Voice are the same being.

It left the Voice of SOG/Heaven weakened. The Presence has infinitely many other multiverses he controls, while again, GEB is disrupting only one, if any part of the Presence is affected, it's an infinitesimal portion of himself that redounds to zero, so the Presence isn't being weakened but just an aspect of himself as his scope is infinitely greater than GEB.

I'm pretty sure the Voice and the Light are meant to be seperate things, the Light is more likely to be the Hand of God whereas the GEB is the Hand of the Darkness, which eventually formed the Empty Hand.

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@thopples:

When has Spectre ever called the Light the Voice? And does he consider the Voice to be God itself? Because that would contradict the Light being an aspect if the Spectre refers to the Voice as the Presence itself. You're the one who made the claim that the Light is just an aspect of the Presence, but you haven't even given evidence that the Light is related to the Voice in any way.

The Light of God, (with the Spectre present) being called "Voice" not the Presence. Hell, it even looks like the Light's depiction in the GEB fight.

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The Spectre calling a manifested dog avatar of God as "the Voice" not "the Presence".

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DC's official cosmology map calls the God of the Judeo-Christian heaven as the Word of the Voice, not the Presence, because the Presence is bound to Heaven, he transcends on a higher level and the Voice is just his avatar in Heaven.

If the Voice is limited to the Sphere of Gods then it wouldn't be the same as the Light, because as we've seen the Light has literally been there before the SOG even existed, it was responsible for the creation of the multiverse and Morrison's map no longer applies to this new cosmology anyways since there's no longer a source wall.

Cope. There being a Source Wall or no doesn't change the fact that God in the Judeo-Christian Heaven is just the Voice until further evidence shows otherwise. I mean, what is the correlation? You realize that the Presence, the real Presence, vacated Creation a long time ago, bypassing the Source Wall (proving he is independent in power and essence of the Multiverse) right? So it would just literally be the Voice that remains.

The Light is both the Presence, the Overvoid, the Source, AND the Voice. They all are the Light existing in different levels of power. It's like Neoplatonism where God exists in different levels and DC literally copies from this concept, so yes, they are all the Light but in different manifested levels. I see no contradiction.

The Light is weakened, but only a small portion of itself, doesn't apply to the Presence who left the Multiverse (which caused a multiversal crisis greater than COIE thus it didn't weaken him) and it has plenty of feats before this to show that this Crisis event is no threat to him, the Presence caused multiple crisis events by himself in fact and was never weakened by a Multiversal Crisis of this tier as he himself caused it.

Well the Light is clearly weakened by this, and so far you haven't actually given any evidence that the Light and the Voice are the same being.

There is more evidence and inductive reasoning to believe that it was only the Voice of the Light that was weakened by this crisis, because the Presence caused multiple crisis events and he didn't care before, and the Light right now controls infinitely many more Creations while GEB is just a threat to one and is just bound to the Concept of Destiny of the Endless (meaning anything GEB does will inevitably lead to failure). You gave no solution, no proof, no alternatives to mine to make the new stuff which came literally just a month ago (and we don't even know how long this will hold) to be consistent with the past stuff.

I admit that the Light got weakened, but only an aspect of itself limited to that Multiverse as the COIE only concerns one Multiverse and there are Infinitely many more multiverses the Light controls not causally related to the COIE events.

the Light is more likely to be the Hand of God whereas the GEB is the Hand of the Darkness, which eventually formed the Empty Hand.

The Great Darkness is just some sort of controlled-opposition of the Presence to define light to define evil and vice versa. Read the latest Lucifer Comic. The Great Darkness is just bound to the concept of Destiny of the Endless alongside the Religious-manifestation of the Presence of the Multiverse, this does not apply to the Presence that transcends the Book of Destiny of the Endless, who exists in infinitely many other Creations.

It doesn't matter if the Light was weakened, as any part of the Light that was weakened only applies to one part of him in one Multiverse, whereas the Light has infinitely many other Multiverses while GEB is just a threat to one and is bound by Destiny of the Endless, a manifestation of the Light's approach to Creation.

I have multiple orders of reasoning and logic on my side, and more evidence, you pretty much are lacking in this.

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#30  Edited By UltraPhoenix

@thopples:

The Light of God, (with the Spectre present) being called "Voice" not the Presence. Hell, it even looks like the Light's depiction in the GEB fight.

No it doesn't lol, the Light's depiction was a Hand reaching out, not a bright ball, and even in this scan there's no mention of the "Light" anywhere.

The Spectre calling a manifested dog avatar of God as "the Voice" not "the Presence".

Ok? This still doesn't prove that the Voice is the Light, you've yet to showcase that.

DC's official cosmology map calls the God of the Judeo-Christian heaven as the Word of the Voice, not the Presence, because the Presence is bound to Heaven, he transcends on a higher level and the Voice is just his avatar in Heaven.

I already know the Presence and the Voice aren't the exact same thing, but again you're just bringing up things not relevant to the question at hand.

Which is irrelevant to my question, the Voice being restricted to SOG or whatnot doesn't prove that the Voice is the Light.

The Light is both the Presence, the Overvoid, the Source, AND the Voice. They all are the Light existing in different levels of power. It's like Neoplatonism where God exists in different levels and DC literally copies from this concept, so yes, they are all the Light but in different manifested levels. I see no contradiction.

And you haven't proven that the Light that faced the GEB is on the same level of power as the Voice, there's no mention of the Light being in the SOG, in fact there's almost no mention of the Light outside of the Swamp Thing storyline and JL Incarnate.

The Light is weakened, but only a small portion of itself, doesn't apply to the Presence who left the Multiverse (which caused a multiversal crisis greater than COIE thus it didn't weaken him) and it has plenty of feats before this to show that this Crisis event is no threat to him, the Presence caused multiple crisis events by himself in fact and was never weakened by a Multiversal Crisis of this tier as he himself caused it.

This still doesn't prove that the Light is the Voice, still two seperate things as far as evidence goes, and what scans show the Presence causing these other crisis events by himself?

There is more evidence and inductive reasoning to believe that it was only the Voice of the Light that was weakened by this crisis, because the Presence caused multiple crisis events and he didn't care before, and the Light right now controls infinitely many more Creations while GEB is just a threat to one and is just bound to the Concept of Destiny of the Endless (meaning anything GEB does will inevitably lead to failure). You gave no solution, no proof, no alternatives to mine to make the new stuff which came literally just a month ago (and we don't even know how long this will hold) to be consistent with the past stuff.

I admit that the Light got weakened, but only an aspect of itself limited to that Multiverse as the COIE only concerns one Multiverse and there are Infinitely many more multiverses the Light controls not causally related to the COIE events.

The new stuff just mentions the Light, that's it, it doesn't say that this the Voice, you're the one trying to fit in this new theory that the Light is just the Voice without any evidence to back it up. Also the Empty Hand was feasting on the Pre-Crisis multiverse prior to JL Incarnate, so it's not exactly limited to one multiverse.

The Great Darkness is just some sort of controlled-opposition of the Presence to define light to define evil and vice versa. Read the latest Lucifer Comic. The Great Darkness is just bound to the concept of Destiny of the Endless alongside the Religious-manifestation of the Presence of the Multiverse, this does not apply to the Presence that transcends the Book of Destiny of the Endless, who exists in infinitely many other Creations.

Do you have any evidence that the GEB is "bound" to Destiny of The Endless?

It doesn't matter if the Light was weakened, as any part of the Light that was weakened only applies to one part of him in one Multiverse, whereas the Light has infinitely many other Multiverses while GEB is just a threat to one and is bound by Destiny of the Endless, a manifestation of the Light's approach to Creation.

I have multiple orders of reasoning and logic on my side, and more evidence, you pretty much are lacking in this.

You're evidence isn't sufficient, you're just posting random scans of a being called the Voice, but none of it actually shows the Light and the Voice as the same thing.

Also the New DC Multiversal Handbook says the Presence is the known arbiter known multiverse, but not possibly the greater omniverse, so it does cast doubt on it ruling over other creations, it also refers to it as "near-omnipotent" not omnipotent.

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#31  Edited By thopples

I already know the Presence and the Voice aren't the exact same thing, but again you're just bringing up things not relevant to the question at hand.

Which is irrelevant to my question, the Voice being restricted to SOG or whatnot doesn't prove that the Voice is the Light.

Ok? This still doesn't prove that the Voice is the Light, you've yet to showcase that.

TLDR, you are repeating yourself and I realize that you do nothing to draw commonality between the Light depicted in the JL Incarnate and all other previous versions of the Presence who is unharmed by Crisis events that he himself caused.

You realize the fact that the Light is weakened by one Multiverse proves that the Light is just an aspect of the Presence who often causes near Multiversal destruction right?

And you haven't proven that the Light that faced the GEB is on the same level of power as the Voice, there's no mention of the Light being in the SOG, in fact there's almost no mention of the Light outside of the Swamp Thing storyline and JL Incarnate.

Lmao, you said it yourself that GEB ran away to Hell, during that time, GEB was almost destroyed by the Presence during the duration of Lucifer. Meanwhile the Voice is hanging in the opposite of Hell, in the Silver City, all in all, the Presence transcends Creation and GEB doesn't, and exists in infinitely many other Multiverses and is the Overvoid itself and GEB is literally bound by the Concept of Destiny of the Endless's book in Lucifer.

The Presence literally has aspects of himself that one can kill and weaken with Prep, but it doesn't affect his true transcendent infinite self.

What evidence do you have that GEB is operating nearly on the same level as the Presence in the Overvoid?

The new stuff just mentions the Light, that's it, it doesn't say that this the Voice, you're the one trying to fit in this new theory that the Light is just the Voice without any evidence to back it up. Also the Empty Hand was feasting on the Pre-Crisis multiverse prior to JL Incarnate, so it's not exactly limited to one multiverse.

The Pre-Crisis Multiverse is literally just 1 Multiverse among infinitely many others in the Omniverse, so whether it is the Pre-Crisis Multiverse or not, he is still not a threat to the grander Overvoid.

The fact that the Light is predicated on human religious beliefs (while the true Presence himself isn't) is proof that the Light weakened in the JL Incarnate spoken of, is just an aspect of the Presence because the Presence survived unscathed many times while the Light was weakened.

Do you have any evidence that the GEB is "bound" to Destiny of The Endless?

Read the latest Lucifer chapter comic. The Great Darkness of the Multiverse ceases to exist once you remove Lucifer's name from the Book of Destiny of the Endless, this also causes the Presence's Judeo-Christian aspect to cease to exist as the Presence depends on the GEB's existence and the GEB, on the Presence. The fact that Judeo-Christianity is limited to only 1 Multiverse and GEB is symbiotically independent and essential to just a Judeo-Christian God of human belief proves that GEB's influence doesn't extend beyond Destiny.

That's literally the plot of the latest Lucifer comic.

You're evidence isn't sufficient, you're just posting random scans of a being called the Voice, but none of it actually shows the Light and the Voice as the same thing.

Likewise, what evidence do you have that the Light that got weakened here is legitimately the same as the different versions of the Presence from Matteis to M. Carey, and co. who either utterly transcend the Mayhem of the Multiverse, all the way to the Void, and is not affected by Crisis events while the Light is?

Solve this inconsistency for me please, and then I'll shut up, wait, better yet, explain why the erasure of the GEB is a function of Destiny of the Endless's book in Lucifer????? The same Destiny who is just a side effect of the Presence's Plan, and whose book is limited only to 1 Multiverse in the Overvoid?

Also the New DC Multiversal Handbook says the Presence is the known arbiter known multiverse, but not possibly the greater omniverse, so it does cast doubt on it ruling over other creations, it also refers to it as "near-omnipotent" not omnipotent.

That only refers to the aspect of the Presence in that local Multiverse.

This scan here I have is literally from the same guidebook, Perpetua is the Creator of the Multiverse, and the Presence as the Omniverse's SUPREME BEING, that means Presence >>>>>> GEB.

That scan you have is only referring to the Multiversal Presence, not the Omniversal Presence.

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The cards are stacked against you.

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#32  Edited By UltraPhoenix

@thopples:

TLDR, you are repeating yourself and I realize that you do nothing to draw commonality between the Light depicted in the JL Incarnate and all other previous versions of the Presence who is unharmed by Crisis events that he himself caused.

You realize the fact that the Light is weakened by one Multiverse proves that the Light is just an aspect of the Presence who often causes near Multiversal destruction right?

All I asked for scans to show that the Voice and Light are the same being, but you haven't proven that. In fact Phantom Stranger, who's commanded by the Voice didn't refer to the Light as the Voice. He used the term "light".

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Lmao, you said it yourself that GEB ran away to Hell, during that time, GEB was almost destroyed by the Presence during the duration of Lucifer. Meanwhile the Voice is hanging in the opposite of Hell, in the Silver City, all in all, the Presence exists in infinitely many other Multiverses and is the Overvoid itself and GEB is literally bound by the Concept of Destiny of the Endless's book in Lucifer.

Ran away? They had a stalemate and then he went into a slumber, ran away would imply that he was losing or the Light wasn't stopping and he ran.

The Presence literally has aspects of himself that one can kill and weaken with Prep, but it doesn't affect his true transcendent infinite self.

And you haven't proven that this was an aspect, or was the Voice.

What evidence do you have that GEB is operating nearly on the same level as the Presence in the Overvoid?

I never said it was on the same level as the Presence.

The Pre-Crisis Multiverse is literally just 1 Multiverse among infinitely many others in the Omniverse, so whether it is the Pre-Crisis Multiverse or not, he is still not a threat to the grander Overvoid.

The fact that the Light is predicated on human religious beliefs (while the true Presence himself isn't) is proof that the Light weakened in the JL Incarnate spoken of, is just an aspect of the Presence because the Presence survived unscathed many times while the Light was weakened.

Again more made up claims, where is it said that the Light is predicated on human beliefs? The Pre-Crisis multiverse being a feeding ground for the Gentry means they're not just limited to one multiverse.

Read the latest Lucifer chapter comic. The Great Darkness of the Multiverse ceases to exist once you remove Lucifer's name from the Book of Destiny of the Endless, this also causes the Presence's Judeo-Christian aspect to cease to exist as the Presence depends on the GEB's existence and the GEB, on the Presence. The fact that Judeo-Christianity is limited to only 1 Multiverse and GEB is symbiotically independent and essential to just a Judeo-Christian God of human belief proves that GEB's influence doesn't extend beyond Destiny.

That's literally the plot of the latest Lucifer comic.

Do you have scans to support this claim? An issue number at least? Is the GEB ever brough up in the comic?

Likewise, what evidence do you have that the Light that got weakened here is legitimately the same as the different versions of the Presence from Matteis to M. Carey, and co. who either utterly transcend the Mayheb Multiverse, all the way to the Void, and is not affected by Crisis events while the Light is?

Solve this inconsistency for me please, and then I'll shut up, wait, better yet, explain why the erasure of the GEB is a function of Destiny of the Endless's book in Lucifer????? The same Destiny who is just a side effect of the Presence's Plan.

Post scans that show the GEB was a function of Destiny's book, and I never said that GEB is on the same level as the Presence, I just said he a fight with the Light.

That only refers to the aspect of the Presence in that local Multiverse.

This here is literally from the same guidebook.

They simply forgot to distinguish Multiversal Presence from Omniversal Presence.

Well it did say "possibly", but it does mention that the Presence is near-omnipotent, and there is only one entry for The Presence, it's aspects like The Voice has a seperate entry so no there's no differentiation going on here between a multiversal or omniversal presence.

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#33  Edited By thopples

All I asked for scans to show that the Voice and Light are the same being, but you haven't proven that. In fact Phantom Stranger, who's commanded by the Voice didn't refer to the Light as the Voice. He used the term "light".

That proves that the Light and the Voice are synonymous beings, because to the Phantom Stranger, the Light and the Voice are the same, and you have no evidence that they are distinct.

Has Spectre or PS ever distinguished the Voice or the Light? No, because PS is also commanded by the Voice and commanded by the Light because they are the same.

It's so hilarious that you provide my own evidence against you.

Ran away? They had a stalemate and then he went into a slumber, ran away would imply that he was losing or the Light wasn't stopping and he ran.

He ran away to Hell, and the Presence almost destroyed the Multiverse, all its inhabitants, the GEB included with it had he destroyed hell. GEB is literally weakened by that fight because he has to collect all his avatars to destroy one Multiverse while the Presence can casually destroy it without reunifying all his aspects at all.

I never said it was on the same level as the Presence.

You said GEB and the Presence had a stalemate and you are desperately trying to place GEB on the same level as the Presence even though feats of the Presence across many authors and anti-feats of GEB in the JL Incarnate prove otherwise.

Again more made up claims, where is it said that the Light is predicated on human beliefs? The Pre-Crisis multiverse being a feeding ground for the Gentry means they're not just limited to one multiverse, that's just

The fact that the loss of Infinite universes in one Multiverse weakened the Light? Whereas the Presence himself doesn't get weakened by such a thing.

Do you have scans to support this claim? An issue number at least? Is the GEB ever brough up in the comic?

Here.

https://readcomiconline.li/Comic/Lucifer-2018/TPB-The-Devil-At-Heart?id=191349

Lucifer erases himself from Destiny's book, causing Darkness and Evil to disappear, this causes the Presence to also cease existing because he is dependent on Darkness (who else could the Darkness be if not GEB?) as Presence is dependent on GEB/Lucifer's existence and vice versa, until Michael Demiurgos brought Lucifer back.

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Well it did say "possibly", but it does mention that the Presence is near-omnipotent, and there is only one entry for The Presence, it's aspects like The Voice has a seperate entry so no there's no differentiation going on here between a multiversal or omniversal presence.

An internal DC editorial fuck up. They were wondering to place Presence as being Multiversal or Omniversal then placed both just because for the lulz, but far far far far far more evidence in DC Comics points the Presence as being Omniversal, not Multiversal.

Especially in JM De Matteis's Presence where his Presence is the Overvoid and absolutely surpasses and transcends all in Creation and is Omnipotent according to him.

Also that scan of yours only refers to an aspect of the Presence created by religious beliefs that existed after a given Multiverse existed, and it doesn't apply to the Overvoid Presence who existed before reality did like in Matteis, Vertigo, M. Carey, Ostrander, etc.

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@thopples:

That proves that the Light and the Voice are synonymous beings, because to the Phantom Stranger, the Light and the Voice are the same, and you have no evidence that they are distinct.

Has Spectre or PS ever distinguished the Voice or the Light? No, because PS is also commanded by the Voice and commanded by the Light because they are the same.

Um yeah? Phantom Stranger mentions the Light, and he also mentions the Voice, he never says they're the same thing. In fact there isn't really even a wiki entry for the Light nor is it brought up in handbooks or even mentioned, the Voice however is, which suggests they're seperate.

It's so hilarious that you provide my own evidence against you.

You're evidence doesn't even mention they're the same thing lol.

He ran away to Hell, and the Presence almost destroyed the Multiverse, all its inhabitants, the GEB included with it had he destroyed hell. GEB is literally weakened by that fight because he has to collect all his avatars to destroy one Multiverse while the Presence can casually destroy it without reunifying all his aspects at all.

GEB literally formed a partial truce, that's why he went into slumber, and the Light was also weakened after the battle as well, it was said to no longer shine as bright.

You said GEB and the Presence had a stalemate and you are desperately trying to place GEB on the same level as the Presence even though feats of the Presence across many authors and anti-feats of GEB in the JL Incarnate prove otherwise.

I said GEB had a stalemate with a weakened Light, how does that imply they're the same? Did you even read what I said? Also so far only the EH has appeared in JL Incarnate, we've only seen feats from a portion of the GEB not the whole thing.

The fact that the loss of Infinite universes in one Multiverse weakened the Light? Whereas the Presence himself doesn't get weakened by such a thing.

You haven't demonstrated that they're seperate beings to begin with.

Here.

https://readcomiconline.li/Comic/Lucifer-2018/TPB-The-Devil-At-Heart?id=191349

Lucifer erases himself from Destiny's book, causing Darkness and Evil to disappear, this causes the Presence to also cease existing because he is dependent on Darkness (who else could the Darkness be if not GEB?) as Presence is dependent on GEB/Lucifer's existence and vice versa, until Michael Demiurgos brought Lucifer back.

Now you're contradicting yourself, you said the Presence can easily destroy the GEB, but doing so would cause the Presence to die as well, so how is he so much more powerful if he's dependent on the GEB? Also the GEB is more so an aspect/version of Lucifer, not Lucifer itself.

Also Michael didn't necessarily bring him back, he killed an angel who fell into heaven, thus repeating the cycle and bringing back Lucifer.

An internal DC editorial fuck up. They were wondering to place Presence as being Multiversal or Omniversal then placed both just because for the lulz, but far far far far far more evidence in DC Comics points the Presence as being Omniversal, not Multiversal.

It also points to it being near omnipotent, so the Presence being weakened is not impossible.

Especially in JM De Matteis's Presence where his Presence is the Overvoid and absolutely surpasses and transcends all in Creation and is Omnipotent according to him.

But according to newer canon it's not omnipotent.

Also that scan of yours only refers to an aspect of the Presence created by religious beliefs that existed after a given Multiverse existed, and it doesn't apply to the Overvoid Presence who existed before reality did like in Matteis, Vertigo, M. Carey, Ostrander, etc.

No it refers to the Presence as the supreme being of the omniverse, and also calls it near-omnipotent, you can't pick and choose what you want. And you already admitted the Presence ceased to exist in the newest Lucifer run lol.

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#35  Edited By thopples

Um yeah? Phantom Stranger mentions the Light, and he also mentions the Voice, he never says they're the same thing. In fact there isn't really even a wiki entry for the Light nor is it brought up in handbooks or even mentioned, the Voice however is, which suggests they're seperate.

You mean that there isn't really a separate entry for the light, means that the Voice and the Light are the same?

Occam's razor, the simplest solution is the best one. Rather than saying that PS and Spectre are serving two separate Gods, the Light and the Voice, we assume they are the same because the Light having no entry of its own proves it's not a distinct entity.

You're evidence doesn't even mention they're the same thing lol.

Your evidence doesn't mention they're not. See how I can turn it against you? But I am in the advantage point because Occam's Razor. And because the Light is not a distinct entity, it isn't distinct from the Voice.

GEB literally formed a partial truce, that's why he went into slumber, and the Light was also weakened after the battle as well, it was said to no longer shine as bright.

The Light is nothing more than an aspect of God who is beyond Timespace and Heaven. Go see Swamp Thing V2 075 https://view-comic.com/swamp-thing-v2-075/

Swamp Thing describes the different levels of existence, here he explains the Light and Darkness (GEB) as being in Heaven and Hell.

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But then when he gets to the realm beyond Time and Space, he says God exists there, breathing in and breathing out, there is a God that is above the Light and GEB and he the Light is likely an aspect of God (as is the Darkness too).

After explaining Heaven and Hell, ST goes on to explain as we go beyond all boundaries and beyond all spacetime.

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"God breathes in and God breathes out" Implying the Void is a distinct God from the Light, and this could be the Overvoid.

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I said GEB had a stalemate with a weakened Light, how does that imply they're the same? Did you even read what I said? Also so far only the EH has appeared in JL Incarnate, we've only seen feats from a portion of the GEB not the whole thing.

Yeah, and I'm saying the Light isn't the Presence because the Presence causes Multiversal destruction multiple times and survived unscathed, and doesn't get weakened unlike the Light that gets weakened by the destruction of universes.

See?

Now you're contradicting yourself, you said the Presence can easily destroy the GEB, but doing so would cause the Presence to die as well, so how is he so much more powerful if he's dependent on the GEB? Also the GEB is more so an aspect/version of Lucifer, not Lucifer itself.

Also Michael didn't necessarily bring him back, he killed an angel who fell into heaven, thus repeating the cycle and bringing back Lucifer.

That only applies to the Judeo-Christian aspect of the Presence, it doesn't apply to his ultimate self that can traverse the Void and exceed dependency on the Multiverse, cause Multiversal destruction as he himself isn't weakened, as he constantly demonstrated in Carey Run Lucifer.

There is a Presence dependent on belief.

There is a Presence NOT dependent on belief, like the one that Dream of the Endless spoke to, Glory/Shekinah an aspect of the Presence who was immune to Dream's spacetime retcons, or the God beyond timespace in the ST scan I showed you.

The Presence allows himself to become part of religious beliefs or not.

It also points to it being near omnipotent, so the Presence being weakened is not impossible.

It doesn't apply to the Overvoid who is not predicated on religious beliefs though, and the Presence has multiple aspects as the Overvoid, and the one in the multiverse predicated on religious beliefs.

No it refers to the Presence as the supreme being of the omniverse, and also calls it near-omnipotent, you can't pick and choose what you want. And you already admitted the Presence ceased to exist in the newest Lucifer run lol.

When it called the Presence near Omnipotent, it was referring to a Presence that existed AFTER reality, not BEFORE it. The Presence has an aspect that existed BEFORE reality, and also AFTER reality, he allows religious beliefs to shape lower aspects of himself.

The Overvoid is not predicated on religious beliefs, and the Presence is also the Overvoid. There is a Presence predicated on belief and one not predicated on belief, this is the Overvoid.

Read your own scan.

Also, Destiny of the Endless's book is a side-effect of the Presence's power, only an aspect of himself ceased to exist.

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@thopples:

You mean that there isn't really a separate entry for the light, means that the Voice and the Light are the same?

Occam's razor, the simplest solution is the best one. Rather than saying that PS and Spectre are serving two separate Gods, the Light and the Voice, we assume they are the same because the Light having no entry of its own proves it's not a distinct entity.

If there's no entry, then there's no reason to assume they're the same, the simplest reason is that they're not the same because they're never mentioned to be the same.

Your evidence doesn't mention they're not. See how I can turn it against you? But I am in the advantage point because Occam's Razor. And because the Light is not a distinct entity, it isn't distinct from the Voice.

I'm not making a claim, so what evidence would I have to give, you're the one who said it's an aspect of the Presence and it's the Voice, so the onus is on you to prove it. Simply saying Occam's razor is not an argument because you're claim is still unfounded. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

The Light is nothing more than an aspect of God who is beyond Timespace and Heaven. Go see Swamp Thing V2 075 https://view-comic.com/swamp-thing-v2-075/

Swamp Thing describes the different levels of existence, here he explains the Light and Darkness (GEB) as being in Heaven and Hell.

But then when he gets to the realm beyond Time and Space, he says God exists there, breathing in and breathing out, there is a God that is above the Light and GEB and he the Light is likely an aspect of God (as is the Darkness too).

After explaining Heaven and Hell, ST goes on to explain as we go beyond all boundaries and beyond all spacetime.

"God breathes in and God breathes out" Implying the Void is a distinct God from the Light, and this could be the Overvoid.

The Light is the Overvoid, and the Great Darkness is even older than it, in fact it caused the flaw in the Light that led to the creation of the multiverse.

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As you can see the Great Darkness existed before the Overvoid, and is not limited by it.

Yeah, and I'm saying the Light isn't the Presence because the Presence causes Multiversal destruction multiple times and survived unscathed, and doesn't get weakened unlike the Light that gets weakened by the destruction of universes.

See?

Scans of the Presence causing multiversal destruction multiple times? If the Presence can cease to exist without the Darkness then why can't a battle with the Darkness weaken it?

That only applies to the Judeo-Christian aspect of the Presence, it doesn't apply to his ultimate self that can traverse the Void and exceed dependency on the Multiverse, cause Multiversal destruction as he himself isn't weakened, as he constantly demonstrated in Carey Run Lucifer.

There is a Presence dependent on belief.

There is a Presence NOT dependent on belief, like the one that Dream of the Endless spoke to, Glory/Shekinah an aspect of the Presence who was immune to Dream's spacetime retcons, or the God beyond timespace in the ST scan I showed you.

The Presence allows himself to become part of religious beliefs or not.

The Presence ceasing to exist had nothing to do with beliefs, it had to do with the existence of Lucifer, that's what it relied on. With Lucifer gone so was the Presence.

It doesn't apply to the Overvoid who is not predicated on religious beliefs though, and the Presence has multiple aspects as the Overvoid, and the one in the multiverse predicated on religious beliefs.

The handbook doesn't mention religious beliefs or different aspects (except for the Voice) it very clearly states The Presence, and it even says that Presence came to monitor the new multiverse, so that's clearly referring to the real Presence, how else would it monitor the multiverse if it existed before it? Even the Light existed prior to creation.

When it called the Presence near Omnipotent, it was referring to a Presence that existed AFTER reality, not BEFORE it. The Presence has an aspect that existed BEFORE reality, and also AFTER reality, he allows religious beliefs to shape lower aspects of himself.

The Overvoid is not predicated on religious beliefs, and the Presence is also the Overvoid. There is a Presence predicated on belief and one not predicated on belief, this is the Overvoid.

Read your own scan.

There is no mention of two seperate versions of the Presence in the handbook, it just mentions that's when the Presence comes into being, and the JL Incarnate explained that the Light grew and formed the overvoid, and then creation came into being, which is even more evidence that it's not the Voice since it's existed prior to creation, it was the Overvoid, it literally says the flaw in the Light caused the multiverse to exist, the same flaw in the Overvoid that was mentioned in Final Crisis.

Also, Destiny of the Endless's book is a side-effect of the Presence's power, only an aspect of himself ceased to exist.

It's never stated that only an aspect ceased to exist, show proof otherwise.

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#37  Edited By thopples

The Light is the Overvoid, and the Great Darkness is even older than it, in fact it caused the flaw in the Light that led to the creation of the multiverse.

We are in a thread assuming the interpretation Lucifer created the Multiverse, and not GEB, and assuming Lucifer where GEB is just Lucifer, so this scan doesn't work and my Swamp Thing scans still applies where God is distinct from the Light. So my Swamp Thing scans still applies.

Hilariously, Lucifer and GEB are the same and by that GEB is inferior to the Presence as the Presence can destroy Lucifer any time he wants. So even if you insist GEB created the Multiverse, well the Lucifer canon agrees with you and Lucifer/GEB is inferior to the Presence.

Perhaps if this thread was a "Ignoring literally everything in Vertigo, DC Cosmology" your argument would work but it doesn't.

Scans of the Presence causing multiversal destruction multiple times? If the Presence can cease to exist without the Darkness then why can't a battle with the Darkness weaken it?

The Presence ceasing to exist had nothing to do with beliefs, it had to do with the existence of Lucifer, that's what it relied on. With Lucifer gone so was the Presence.

Then you admit that Great Evil Beast and Lucifer are the same (thus disregarding that JL Incarnate scan) since you are trying to use the Lucifer scan against me.

Now I counter you with this:

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Destiny of the Endless is LITERALLY just a side-effect of the Presence's power over Creation. This means that what ceased to exist wasn't the Presence entirely (otherwise Destiny of the Endless too should stop existing) but just his Light.

The Presence was never equated to the Light according to Lucifer, but rather, "his Light" meaning the Light is just a property/aspect of the Presence due to Lucifer's wording.

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Scans of the Presence causing multiversal destruction multiple times? If the Presence can cease to exist without the Darkness then why can't a battle with the Darkness weaken it?

The Lucifer 2000 comic has the Presence leaving his Multiverse, leaving all of Spacetime, that depended on his existence, to falter into destruction and oblivion, this did not affect the Presence's power at all and he was unfazed by it, meaning he is not dependent on the Multiverse/Destiny's Book, the Light on the other hand was affected by Multiversal destruction.

Lucifer also left his father's Creation/Destiny's Book many times, and this did not affect the Presence either.

Presence also, as I said many times, nearly destroyed 3 Multiverses and would have been unfazed by it too.

The handbook doesn't mention religious beliefs or different aspects (except for the Voice) it very clearly states The Presence, and it even says that Presence came to monitor the new multiverse, so that's clearly referring to the real Presence, how else would it monitor the multiverse if it existed before it? Even the Light existed prior to creation.

You realize that this scan of yours has a huge problem that even backfires on you in many ways? It's so hilarious that you really hate reading your own stuff.

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The Presence described in this scan existed AFTER the Multiverse existed, not before it. In this scan, the Presence is not the Creator (and contradicts most other stuff we know about the Presence) but rather an emergent property of Creation.

The only way to make this consistent with older stuff is that the Presence spoken of here is not the real Presence as this Presence in this scan is not the Creator, and is a Near-Omnipotent avatar of the true Creator of the Multiverse, and if the Presence is Near-Omnipotent, whatever he is an avatar to must be Omnipotent, and since Lucifer is really just GEB and GEB is really just Lucifer...... that true Creator that existed before reality is superior to GEB/Lucifer.

It's never stated that only an aspect ceased to exist, show proof otherwise.

Sorry, but Sandman Overture is my counter against this insinuation. Dream of the Endless retconned the Multiverse's spacetime with Dreams, affecting and rewriting even Destiny's Book, causing everyone to forget the destruction of the Multiverse due to his retcon.

Only Glory of the First Circle/Shekinah (Presence in hebrew and Judeo-Christianity) was unaffected, and if an aspect of the Presence is unaffected by changes to the Book of Destiny, then the Presence has properties outside of Destiny's Book and still continued to exist in some form.

Glory also is the one who bound the Endless with many rules and laws and we know from Lucifer that Destiny is a manifestation of the Presence's approach to Creation, and Great Evil Beast is bound to Destiny of the Endless. So Presence = Glory of the First Circle > Destiny's Book > Great Evil Beast

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#38  Edited By UltraPhoenix

@thopples:

We are in a thread assuming the interpretation Lucifer created the Multiverse, and not GEB, and assuming Lucifer where GEB is just Lucifer, so this scan doesn't work and my Swamp Thing scans still applies where God is distinct from the Light. So my Swamp Thing scans still applies.

No the interpreatation is that the Great Darkness and the Light created it when the Light grew and had an imperceptible flaw, which lines up with the creation story in Final Crisis.

Hilariously, Lucifer and GEB are the same and by that GEB is inferior to the Presence as the Presence can destroy Lucifer any time he wants. So even if you insist GEB created the Multiverse, well the Lucifer canon agrees with you and Lucifer/GEB is inferior to the Presence.

GEB is an aspect of Lucifer, who is the Great Darkness, and Lucifer is just the dark side of the Presence, they're both dependent on each other, neither is superior.

Perhaps if this thread was a "Ignoring literally everything in Vertigo, DC Cosmology" your argument would work but it doesn't.

There is no one canon that includes everything in Vertigo/DC, there have been multiple creation stories, Perpetua creating the multiverse, Pralaya doing, the Overvoid doing it, etc. That's what retcons are they change things.

Then you admit that Great Evil Beast and Lucifer are the same (thus disregarding that JL Incarnate scan) since you are trying to use the Lucifer scan against me.

GEB is an aspect of Lucifer, it's the hand of the Great Darkness.

Now I counter you with this:

Destiny of the Endless is LITERALLY just a side-effect of the Presence's power over Creation. This means that what ceased to exist wasn't the Presence entirely (otherwise Destiny of the Endless too should stop existing) but just his Light.

No it doesn't lol, just because he's a side effect of creation doesn't mean he is dependent on the creator, it is never stated that he can only exist because Presence exists, he isn't dependent like Lucifer/Presence are to each other.

The Presence was never equated to the Light according to Lucifer, but rather, "his Light" meaning the Light is just a property/aspect of the Presence due to Lucifer's wording.

It was however equated to the Overvoid, on which the multiverse grew from, and the same Overvoid is what other creators like Morrison consider God to be, that's the new canon.

The Lucifer 2000 comic has the Presence leaving his Multiverse, leaving all of Spacetime, that depended on his existence, to falter into destruction and oblivion, this did not affect the Presence's power at all and he was unfazed by it, meaning he is not dependent on the Multiverse/Destiny's Book, the Light on the other hand was affected by Multiversal destruction.

And was creation destroyed as a result? I'm pretty sure that never happened unless you've got scans to show otherwise, because that literally debunks your argument that creation can exist without Presence, just in a different state.

Lucifer also left his father's Creation/Destiny's Book many times, and this did not affect the Presence either.

Leaving creation is not the same thing as removing yourself from time and space itself, one is leaving and the other is altering reality.

Presence also, as I said many times, nearly destroyed 3 Multiverses and would have been unfazed by it too.

Scans? Did this actually happen or are these just statements?

It literally says reality restarts meaning it once existed prior to this as well, this literally means that the Presence is used in restarting the multiverse, it also lines up with Scott Snyder's answers on DC cosmology, in this interview at 6:00 - 6:09 he explains that the Hands call upon the Presence to restart things.

The only way to make this consistent with older stuff is that the Presence spoken of here is not the real Presence as this Presence in this scan is not the Creator, and is a Near-Omnipotent avatar of the true Creator of the Multiverse, and if the Presence is Near-Omnipotent, whatever he is an avatar to must be Omnipotent, and since Lucifer is really just GEB and GEB is really just Lucifer...... that true Creator that existed before reality is superior to GEB/Lucifer.

No, GEB is an aspect of Lucifer, and Lucifer is the Great Darkness, the greater part of it, and nothing is 100% consistent with older stuff, even Vertigo stuff is contradicted by Final Crisis, or Perpetua's existence, or Pralaya.

Sorry, but Sandman Overture is my counter against this insinuation. Dream of the Endless retconned the Multiverse's spacetime with Dreams, affecting and rewriting even Destiny's Book, causing everyone to forget the destruction of the Multiverse due to his retcon.

Only Glory of the First Circle/Shekinah (Presence in hebrew and Judeo-Christianity) was unaffected, and if an aspect of the Presence is unaffected by changes to the Book of Destiny, then the Presence has properties outside of Destiny's Book and still continued to exist in some form.

Then show scans that prove otherwise, not just meaningless babble, the handbooks clearly state that Presence comes into being when reality restarts and is near omnipotent. What's also hilarious is that DC's defintion of omnipotent isn't a person who possesses unlimited power, so even if you could call Presence omnipotent it's not the actual definition.

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Overture also contradicts your previous statements about Destiny being reliant on the Presence because it states that Time gave Destiny all it had, not the Presence. It also mentions how there was darkness at the beginning, which lines up with JL Incarnate, but then again it also doesn't line up with other DC retcons but for some reason you are bringing it up.

Glory also is the one who bound the Endless with many rules and laws and we know from Lucifer that Destiny is a manifestation of the Presence's approach to Creation, and Great Evil Beast is bound to Destiny of the Endless. So Presence = Glory of the First Circle > Destiny's Book > Great Evil Beast

Actually Destiny is the child of Father Time according to Overture, so unless Father Time is now an aspect of the Presence then you're using a story that contradicts yourself, it also doesn't line up with newer DC canon either.

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@y3kthunder: Alright so some previews came out for Flashpoint Beyond #0 and Green Lantern #11 and there are some pretty interesting things mentioned about DC cosmology:

For starters, we get to see the Source (or at least a manifestation of it appear, as Jack Kirby himself!

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Although I'm not sure what the big Turtle reference is in regards to.

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In the Flashpoint book Batman stumbles into Rip Hunter's lab and see's these interesting notes on a chalkboard, there's some meta commentary on how 5G was averted, and also mention of a place beyond the Omniverse?

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There is also mention of the omniverse, multiverse, and metaverse are split up. This pretty clearly defines that the metaverse is not the multiverse, and should debunk whatever nonsense people were saying about Dr. Manhattan being multiversal. It also says that the Sphere of Gods exists within the omniverse, but not necessarily in the multiverse, and that hypertime is seperate from the omniverse.

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All of this is referred to as the Divine Continuum (DC), all of existence is just a subset of DC. There is also the appearance of the mimes from Doomsday Clock, and their son who has Dr. Manhattan's powers may show up again.

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#40  Edited By thopples

No the interpreatation is that the Great Darkness and the Light created it when the Light grew and had an imperceptible flaw, which lines up with the creation story in Final Crisis.

Final Crisis never said that the Multiverse was a result of the Light and Darkness. The Multiverse just appeared and the Overvoid was shocked by its existence and sent a probe.

You want instead? There's this scan that blatantly tells you that the Light is only a CREATION of God/Presence, not God/Presence itself. This thread considers Vertigo's inclusion, not exclusion, so you bringing up new cosmology is like trying to impose the new Marvel Cosmology on Pre-Retcon Beyonder, likewise, this thread is inclusive of old canon, not "New Canon > Old Canon" interpretation, you're not the OP, you don't define the rules in the same sense that if a thread talks about Pre-Retcon Beyonder, you don't force everyone to talk about Post-Retcon Beyonder.

If tomorrow, Superman gets hurt by a bullet, do we all of a sudden ignore all of Superman's feats of tanking bullets just because "muh new canon"? No, of course not because new cosmologies that hilariously downgrade a character's previous statements, showings and axioms across many authors (and the Presence is always never stated to be weakened as a result of Multiversal destruction, not Matteis, not Neil, not Carey or almost anyone) should be dismissed as outliers and nothing more. Likewise, the loss of Infinite Universes should only apply to the Light as previous stories establish it as just a creation of GOD, not God himself.

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Neatly ties into the fact the Light existed once Presence created Lucifer, and how Lucifer implyingly tells you blatantly the Presence existed before the Light.

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Since this thread considers Lucifer, and that earlier scan is consistent with Lucifer's statement that the Presence is distint from the Light, it's relevant.

Also, since the Presence existed before Lucifer, and Light only existed when Lucifer existed, therefore the Presence is not wholly equivalent to the Light, using ABC logic that you absolutely refuse to ignore.

You also ignore the fact that an aspect of the Presence transcends changes in Destiny's Book in Overture, therefore when Destiny erased the Presence, it only applied to an aspect of himself contingent on Destiny's Book used to erase Lucifer and the Presence together.

Also, again, and again, Swamp Thing 075 distinguishes the Light from God.

Geoff Johns, in Blackest Night and Day of Judgement, gives us a fuller picture in the context of the Creation of the cosmos, God/Presence CREATED the Light, and clearly distinguishes the Light from the Presence, implying the Light is either just a creation or an aspect of the Presence. This is an allusion to the biblical narrative where God said "Let there be Light" the Bible never said that God is the Light but God created the Light, and since the Presence is modelled after the Biblical God that isn't the Light but the Creator of Light, therefore GEB never stalemated the Presence but just his aspect/creation.

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Again, HE, God had CREATED the LIGHT, God is NOT the Light, he CREATED it. Get the logic? Get the memo yet?

We have, like what, 3 sources distinguishing the Presence/God from the Light now? You can clearly read your bible and it says God created the Light and the comic that Geoff Johns writes, he clearly distinguishes Light from God and even references GEB, and my earlier scan is clearly a reference to that distinction.

Stop acting like the idea that the Presence was distinguished from the Void is not there because it literally is there three different sources.

GEB is an aspect of Lucifer, who is the Great Darkness, and Lucifer is just the dark side of the Presence, they're both dependent on each other, neither is superior.

> Lucifer is equal in power to the Presence

You're nuts. Just blatantly ignoring how Lucifer lost the war, how the Presence manipulated Lucifer into becoming his own shadow and darkness, how Lucifer only has a portion of the Presence's power by Lucifer's own admission.

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This is hilarious blatant cope and lying.

There is no one canon that includes everything in Vertigo/DC, there have been multiple creation stories, Perpetua creating the multiverse, Pralaya doing, the Overvoid doing it, etc. That's what retcons are they change things.

Pralaya, you mean who is an aspect of the Presence as in "God's Unconsiousness" written by Matteis who believed the Presence is Omnipotent? Are you trying to impose that over Vertigo's Presence because that destroys your point.

Or the Overvoid/Source, where Grant Morrison in an interview he akins it to the Jewish Kabbalistic idea of God? And since Presence is the Jewish God, Yahweh, Grant Morrison's notion of the Overvoid clearly transcends Creation and hilariously wouldn't be weakened by the destruction of Infinite Universes.

Both link to the Presence ultimately, and none of these stories tell you about either of them getting weak without the existence of Infinite Universes. This shows that the recent "retcons" is outlier cosmology.

GEB is an aspect of Lucifer, it's the hand of the Great Darkness.

And Lucifer only wields a portion of the Presence's power, and the Presence is superior to Lucifer so yeah.

Oop, what is this???

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Lucifer said the Presence manipulated the Void/Darkness into form, therefore he is clearly superior to the Darkness as the Presence manipulates it.

Cope.

No it doesn't lol, just because he's a side effect of creation doesn't mean he is dependent on the creator, it is never stated that he can only exist because Presence exists, he isn't dependent like Lucifer/Presence are to each other.

You realize that Lucifer erased himself and the Presence using Destiny's book yes? And since Destiny's book is just a side-effect of the Presence, then logically what must follow is that the Presence is not dependent on Destiny's Book ultimately and whatever disappeared using Destiny's book erasure was just an aspect of the Presence.

Also, the Presence blatantly tells you had literally no need of either Michael or Lucifer.

No Caption Provided

And was creation destroyed as a result? I'm pretty sure that never happened unless you've got scans to show otherwise, because that literally debunks your argument that creation can exist without Presence, just in a different state.

You really did not read Lucifer at all, Creation faltering into non-existence is literally a major last arc of the story, holy shit. At this point you are asking me to read you the entire story, all the way for your insane headcanon where you claim Lucifer is as powerful as the Presence, which is insane that even Monitor Wankers wouldn't entertain the thought.

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"GOD HAS ABANDONED US. AND AS A RESULT THE WHOLE OF CREATION IS BEGINNING TO UNRAVEL."

"ONLY YAHWEH'S CREATION. IT DEPENDS ON THE LOGOS-- THE WORD OF GOD-- FOR ITS EXISTENCE. MY OWN COSMOS WON'T BE AFFECTED."

It ALMOST happened, that's why Lucifer, Mazikeen, Elaine, etc. used the Voids to save Creation by dropping Lucifer's and Yahweh's Multiverse into Elaine's Multiverse.

You are literally asking me to spoonfeed to you the fucking story and if this isn't evidence enough for you, a story that despite any contradiction, is a sequel to Sandman Overture and the Dan Watter's Lucifer, you're on your own mate.

It was however equated to the Overvoid, on which the multiverse grew from, and the same Overvoid is what other creators like Morrison consider God to be, that's the new canon.

"That's the new canon" well, this thread is not strictly about the New Canon, since we are assuming Lucifer created the Multiverse in this scenario so cope harder.

Leaving creation is not the same thing as removing yourself from time and space itself, one is leaving and the other is altering reality.

Creation = Time and Space

Leaving Creation = Leaving Time and Space

This is massive cope beyond the copiums of all cope. Cope harder please, so that you can further embarass yourself.

When Lucifer left Creation, he entered the Void which is stated to be beyond Time and Space, therefore leaving Creation = leaving Time and Space

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"There is no time and here and no Space"

Absolute Cringe arguments.

The Presence holds ALL OF CREATION from his Hand. Which contains Hell that contains GEB.

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The Presence also says that if he destroys Creation, it would be from the Beginning and the End of Time and Space, once he destroyed it, nothing will have ever have been or had been.

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The Presence also blatantly tells you that if he destroys Creation (that is in his hands) he will have destroyed it from the BEGINNING OF TIME. Nothing will die as nothing will have ever been.

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The Presence also tells you that everything in Creation happens because he makes it happen. That means even him being erased must have been his own avatar as he transcends changes in Destiny's Book, Destiny being a side effect of the Presence strongly implies that there is an aspect of the Presence that transcends changes in Destiny's book, therefore whatever that erased of the Presence using Destiny's book was just an aspect of the Presence as the Presence cannot be logically wholly dependent on Destiny's Book.

Scans? Did this actually happen or are these just statements?

You realize that feats are predicated on statements yes? How do you prove a Multiverse is Infinite? You cannot prove infinity, you assume it with an AXIOM that it is Infinite. So your "muh feats muh didn't happen is just a statement" is ridiculous because you might as well be a Finitist and you might as well deny that any character in fiction has Infinite power because you are appealing to "muh dun like statements, feats only" nonsense as Infinity is an axiom as given by a narrative.

The destruction of Creation ALMOST happened. Everyone knew it and the narrative/story is staked on it, you ignoring shit just because you desperately want the Presence to be fodder is hilarious special pleading.

It literally says reality restarts meaning it once existed prior to this as well, this literally means that the Presence is used in restarting the multiverse, it also lines up with Scott Snyder's answers on DC cosmology, in this interview at 6:00 - 6:09 he explains that the Hands call upon the Presence to restart things.

If the Presence restarts the Multiverse, how can he be possibly be weakened by the destruction of something that he can easily restart? Therefore, it's just an avatar if you want to remain consistent with even that interview.

No, GEB is an aspect of Lucifer, and Lucifer is the Great Darkness, the greater part of it, and nothing is 100% consistent with older stuff, even Vertigo stuff is contradicted by Final Crisis, or Perpetua's existence, or Pralaya.

Who the fuck is talking about Final Crisis or Perpetua's Existence or Pralaya's Existence? (the latter, the Presence is Omnipotent in according to the author) sounds like massive cope to change the subject.

If GEB is an aspect of Lucifer, and Lucifer is weaker than the Presence (only has a portion of his power) therefore the Light that the Presence fought was just an avatar of the Presence, as it is consistent with this statement that the Light is just a creation of God.

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And this from Swamp Thing 075 where ST distinguishes the Light from God

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Then show scans that prove otherwise, not just meaningless babble, the handbooks clearly state that Presence comes into being when reality restarts and is near omnipotent.

How the hell do you reconcile the fact that the Presence comes into being after Creation and then say earlier he restarts Creation? That scan contradict's Snyder's statement that you literally tried to justify this with.

That scan says the Presence came after Creation, not before it and thus contradicts 99% of other info about the Presence and therefore outlier cosmology.

What's also hilarious is that DC's defintion of omnipotent isn't a person who possesses unlimited power, so even if you could call Presence omnipotent it's not the actual definition.

Who cares? The Presence has feats and statements of Infinite power, and being Eternal, creating a Multiverse/Universe that is Infinite and being beyond Time and Space and this definition of Omnipotence from that guidebook doesn't say Infinite reality warping cannot exist in DC. It's just saying that Omnipotence can at least mean great power but that doesn't mean Omnipotence cannot mean Infinite power, and that doesn't mean no one in DC has Infinite Power and cannot be Eternal as was stated of the Presence, the fact that Infinite Universes and Infinite Multiverses exist in DC implies there was a greater power that created them and this power by definition must be Infinite.

Massive cope.

Overture also contradicts your previous statements about Destiny being reliant on the Presence because it states that Time gave Destiny all it had, not the Presence. It also mentions how there was darkness at the beginning, which lines up with JL Incarnate, but then again it also doesn't line up with other DC retcons but for some reason you are bringing it up.

Overture also tells you that the Presence/Glory of the First Circle is the one in position of responsibility for things related to Creation. And we know the Endless (who are creations of Time and Night) swore fealty to the First Circle from Sandman, so Destiny is still beneath the Presence in power as the Presence defined the laws that bound the Endless their own existence, so it doesn't matter.

In fact, the Presence almost destroyed Father Time as Creation/Time/Space almost disappeared as a result of his absence and almost destroyed Time and Space, that would logically include Father Time. I would argue Father Time is contingent on the Presence as everything happens because the Presence said so and would have destroyed Creation/Time/Space in Lucifer that Father TIme represents.

Actually Destiny is the child of Father Time according to Overture, so unless Father Time is now an aspect of the Presence then you're using a story that contradicts yourself, it also doesn't line up with newer DC canon either.

Overture tells you that Glory of the First Circle is the Presence, who bound the concepts that define Endless and they swear fealty to him.

It doesn't matter since the Presence almost destroyed Time from the beginning and would be logically above Father Time anyway, proving even Father Time is dependent on the Presence for his existence so if Destiny is dependent on Father Time, then Father Time is dependent on the Presence, hell Creation faltering into existence also means even Destiny would be doomed, and Father Time, since the Presence was about to destroy Time from the beginning to the Present.

Your points fail here because this thread considers Vertigo's validity in the domain of discourse, so if I were you, I'd stop coping and go talk in a thread that excludes Vertigo's cosmology.

Oh, and your hilarious appeal to newly established outliers that may likely be retconned tomorrow, to downgrade the Presence's long history of not being phased by the destruction of Infinite Universes.

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#41  Edited By UltraPhoenix

@thopples:

Final Crisis never said that the Multiverse was a result of the Light and Darkness. The Multiverse just appeared and the Overvoid was shocked by its existence and sent a probe.

Final Crisis mentioned the flaw in the overvoid, that's what was shown in this new story, it's trying to reconcile both origins.

You want instead? There's this scan that blatantly tells you that the Light is only a CREATION of God/Presence, not God/Presence itself.

Then show the scan, and prove that this light is only a CREATION of God.

This thread considers Vertigo's inclusion, not exclusion, so you bringing up new cosmology is like trying to impose the new Marvel Cosmology on Pre-Retcon Beyonder, likewise, this thread is inclusive of old canon, not "New Canon > Old Canon" interpretation, you're not the OP, you don't define the rules in the same sense that if a thread talks about Pre-Retcon Beyonder, you don't force everyone to talk about Post-Retcon Beyonder.

Did I force anyone? No, I simply brought up what the latest information says, and OP even says don't be surprised if things change and had no problem accepting my scans lol.

If tomorrow, Superman gets hurt by a bullet, do we all of a sudden ignore all of Superman's feats of tanking bullets just because "muh new canon"? No, of course not because new cosmologies that hilariously downgrade a character's previous statements, showings and axioms across many authors (and the Presence is always never stated to be weakened as a result of Multiversal destruction, not Matteis, not Neil, not Carey or almost anyone) should be dismissed as outliers and nothing more. Likewise, the loss of Infinite Universes should only apply to the Light as previous stories establish it as just a creation of GOD, not God himself.

Terrible analogy, if tommorow it's stated that Superman's durability no longer helps him against bullets then that's the new status of Superman. Writers here are reestablishing the whole cosmology, and Vertigo has rarely if ever crossed over in Crisis events, even in Final Crisis or Death Metal Vertigo stuff wasn't brought up. Also you haven't shown anywhere proof of the Presence/Source tanking the destruction of infinite universes unharmed. In fact the Godwave was straight up going to destroy the Source itself in Genesis.

From the Wonder Woman Encyclopedia
From the Wonder Woman Encyclopedia

And the power of the Godwave was described as city shattering lol, so the Source has been described as weak before.

No Caption Provided

And of course the infamous incident in Death of the New Gods where Darkseid was able to restrain the Source after he became empowered, the Source was also messed up by the Old Gods and left in a diminished state for a long time.

And this even has been canonized btw so the events of JLI line up well with previous stories and the Source being weakened makes sense.

No Caption Provided

The fallout from DoTNG led directly into FC, as stated in the latest DC encyclopedia, and also why should I trust what the Shade has to say? I've got a statement directly from the GEB, where the Shade gets his powers from, and even he's not sure, he's simply mentioning what some people believe, pretty worthless scan.

Neatly ties into the fact the Light existed once Presence created Lucifer, and how Lucifer implyingly tells you blatantly the Presence existed before the Light.

This also ties neatly with the Presence not functioning without Lucifer, however we know because of JLI that the Darkness existed before the Light.

Also, since the Presence existed before Lucifer, and Light only existed when Lucifer existed, therefore the Presence is not wholly equivalent to the Light, using ABC logic that you absolutely refuse to ignore.

The Great Darkness existed before the Light, so this would actually go against the notion of Lucifer being the GEB, and I don't think current DC cares enough to fit Vertigo stuff into their canon.

You also ignore the fact that an aspect of the Presence transcends changes in Destiny's Book in Overture, therefore when Destiny erased the Presence, it only applied to an aspect of himself contingent on Destiny's Book used to erase Lucifer and the Presence together.

Proof that this was an aspect of the Presence in Destiny's book? Either way the GEB exists outside of creation as per JLI, and the Endless are never brought up, neither is Father Time or any other beings.

Also, again, and again, Swamp Thing 075 distinguishes the Light from God.

Scans of this distinction?

Geoff Johns, in Blackest Night and Day of Judgement, gives us a fuller picture in the context of the Creation of the cosmos, God/Presence CREATED the Light, and clearly distinguishes the Light from the Presence, implying the Light is either just a creation or an aspect of the Presence. This is an allusion to the biblical narrative where God said "Let there be Light" the Bible never said that God is the Light but God created the Light, and since the Presence is modelled after the Biblical God that isn't the Light but the Creator of Light, therefore GEB never stalemated the Presence but just his aspect/creation.

Again, HE, God had CREATED the LIGHT, God is NOT the Light, he CREATED it. Get the logic? Get the memo yet?

And the Source for this is, Black Hand? Lol, he's meant to be more credible than the GEB?

We have, like what, 3 sources distinguishing the Presence/God from the Light now? You can clearly read your bible and it says God created the Light and the comic that Geoff Johns writes, he clearly distinguishes Light from God and even references GEB, and my earlier scan is clearly a reference to that distinction.

Stop acting like the idea that the Presence was distinguished from the Void is not there because it literally is there three different sources.

I mean even if I were to grant you this, Death of the New Gods clearly showed the Source (which is the Presence) can be weakened, and it was never said to be an avatar or anything, it was just the Source that got split up and left in a diminished wave from the Godwave, and the event is canonized. Your sources are also not as knowledgeable as the GEB.

> Lucifer is equal in power to the Presence

You're nuts. Just blatantly ignoring how Lucifer lost the war, how the Presence manipulated Lucifer into becoming his own shadow and darkness, how Lucifer only has a portion of the Presence's power by Lucifer's own admission.

All I said was that Lucifer (if we are to assume it's the GEB) was matching the Light, and later took advantage of it being weakened, and that they both rely on each other, it's hard to compare them in power since they're just implied to be two sides of the same coin.

Pralaya, you mean who is an aspect of the Presence as in "God's Unconsiousness" written by Matteis who believed the Presence is Omnipotent? Are you trying to impose that over Vertigo's Presence because that destroys your point.

And what of Perpetua? Her introduction contradicts the Source directly creating the multiverse, clearly DC is changing things about who is or isn't the true creator.

Or the Overvoid/Source, where Grant Morrison in an interview he akins it to the Jewish Kabbalistic idea of God? And since Presence is the Jewish God, Yahweh, Grant Morrison's notion of the Overvoid clearly transcends Creation and hilariously wouldn't be weakened by the destruction of Infinite Universes.

And the Source got messed up by the Godwave lol, so that doesn't change anything about it being weakened by the destruction of universes.

Both link to the Presence ultimately, and none of these stories tell you about either of them getting weak without the existence of Infinite Universes. This shows that the recent "retcons" is outlier cosmology.

No it lines up with Genesis and DotNG, you can't label these things as outliers just because it upsets you.

And Lucifer only wields a portion of the Presence's power, and the Presence is superior to Lucifer so yeah.

Oop, what is this???

Lucifer said the Presence manipulated the Void/Darkness into form, therefore he is clearly superior to the Darkness as the Presence manipulates it.

Cope.

I'm sure you'll be doing a lot of coping once you see those DoTNG scans, like the Source getting fucked over by the battle between 3 Old Gods.

You realize that Lucifer erased himself and the Presence using Destiny's book yes? And since Destiny's book is just a side-effect of the Presence, then logically what must follow is that the Presence is not dependent on Destiny's Book ultimately and whatever disappeared using Destiny's book erasure was just an aspect of the Presence.

Also, the Presence blatantly tells you had literally no need of either Michael or Lucifer.

And that's contradicted by the latest Lucifer run, where the Presence can't exist as a defined entity without Lucifer.

No Caption Provided

You really did not read Lucifer at all, Creation faltering into non-existence is literally a major last arc of the story, holy shit. At this point you are asking me to read you the entire story, all the way for your insane headcanon where you claim Lucifer is as powerful as the Presence, which is insane that even Monitor Wankers wouldn't entertain the thought.

"GOD HAS ABANDONED US. AND AS A RESULT THE WHOLE OF CREATION IS BEGINNING TO UNRAVEL."

"ONLY YAHWEH'S CREATION. IT DEPENDS ON THE LOGOS-- THE WORD OF GOD-- FOR ITS EXISTENCE. MY OWN COSMOS WON'T BE AFFECTED."

It ALMOST happened, that's why Lucifer, Mazikeen, Elaine, etc. used the Voids to save Creation by dropping Lucifer's and Yahweh's Multiverse into Elaine's Multiverse.

You are literally asking me to spoonfeed to you the fucking story and if this isn't evidence enough for you, a story that despite any contradiction, is a sequel to Sandman Overture and the Dan Watter's Lucifer, you're on your own mate.

Well I've got three sources (Genesis, DotNG, and JLI) confirming the Source was weakened/going to be destroyed by creation altering events, and statements from guidebooks, which are more recent than Carey's run.

"That's the new canon" well, this thread is not strictly about the New Canon, since we are assuming Lucifer created the Multiverse in this scenario so cope harder.

Who said "we" are assuming this? You don't speak for everybody here, there's no established version we're all adhering to, and as it stands in the newest canon, and even older stories clearly mention the Source being affected and weakened. Using the "outlier" argument is cope, especially when guidebooks and the words of the Source itself contradict you.

Creation = Time and Space

Leaving Creation = Leaving Time and Space

This is massive cope beyond the copiums of all cope. Cope harder please, so that you can further embarass yourself.

When Lucifer left Creation, he entered the Void which is stated to be beyond Time and Space, therefore leaving Creation = leaving Time and Space

That doesn't change the fact that Lucifer wasn't removed from time and space entirely, he still existed in Destiny's book and if one were to peer inside the book they'd see Lucifer, what removing himself entirely would mean is when he told Destiny to alter the book itself, so no person in creation would remember him.

"There is no time and here and no Space"

Absolute Cringe arguments.

The Presence holds ALL OF CREATION from his Hand. Which contains Hell that contains GEB.

The GEB was out there beyond creation in the overvoid, he's not bound to hell.

The Presence also says that if he destroys Creation, it would be from the Beginning and the End of Time and Space, once he destroyed it, nothing will have ever have been or had been.

The Presence also blatantly tells you that if he destroys Creation (that is in his hands) he will have destroyed it from the BEGINNING OF TIME. Nothing will die as nothing will have ever been.

The Great Darkness was outside of creation as shown in JLI, so this doesn't apply to it, and even in the scan YOU posted Lucifer said his creation wasn't even affected when Presence left.

The Presence also tells you that everything in Creation happens because he makes it happen. That means even him being erased must have been his own avatar as he transcends changes in Destiny's Book, Destiny being a side effect of the Presence strongly implies that there is an aspect of the Presence that transcends changes in Destiny's book, therefore whatever that erased of the Presence using Destiny's book was just an aspect of the Presence as the Presence cannot be logically wholly dependent on Destiny's Book.

That doesn't necessarily mean it's his avatar that was erased, when you're omnipotent you can do anything, and that can include destroying yourself, because omnipotence isn't bound by paradoxes, I guess he also weakened himself in DotNG by that logic?

You realize that feats are predicated on statements yes? How do you prove a Multiverse is Infinite? You cannot prove infinity, you assume it with an AXIOM that it is Infinite. So your "muh feats muh didn't happen is just a statement" is ridiculous because you might as well be a Finitist and you might as well deny that any character in fiction has Infinite power because you are appealing to "muh dun like statements, feats only" nonsense as Infinity is an axiom as given by a narrative.

The destruction of Creation ALMOST happened. Everyone knew it and the narrative/story is staked on it, you ignoring shit just because you desperately want the Presence to be fodder is hilarious special pleading.

Then by that logic you should have no problem accepting that the Source was going to be destroyed by the Godwave bouncing back because it ALMOST happened? But you know what DID happen? The Source being split into two and being diminished in DoTNG. We also know what happens once creation IS destroyed, it leaves him weakened, and your scans never mention him tanking this destruction without any consequences.

If the Presence restarts the Multiverse, how can he be possibly be weakened by the destruction of something that he can easily restart? Therefore, it's just an avatar if you want to remain consistent with even that interview.

Who says he can easily restart it? Also Snyder says that may have just been a universe, he doesn't explicity make clear if it was a universe or multiverse that was restarted, there's also no mention of Presence saying he will be completely unaffected by the destruction of the multiverse, it didn't actually happen in Carey's run, but it was shown in JLI to have affected him.

Who the fuck is talking about Final Crisis or Perpetua's Existence or Pralaya's Existence? (the latter, the Presence is Omnipotent in according to the author) sounds like massive cope to change the subject.

If GEB is an aspect of Lucifer, and Lucifer is weaker than the Presence (only has a portion of his power) therefore the Light that the Presence fought was just an avatar of the Presence, as it is consistent with this statement that the Light is just a creation of God.

You're the one talking about outliers or what is or isn't consistent, and other creation stories aren't consistent, sometimes it's said the Light/Darkness created a flaw which was the multiverse, other times it was Pralaya, other times it was Perpetua, none it lines up perfectly but the most recent canon is in JLI, and the Source being weakened is consistent and it's been weakened before.

You're statement that light is just a creation of God is made by the Black Hand, and even then it just says "let there be light", there's no statement about the light being weaker than God either.

And this from Swamp Thing 075 where ST distinguishes the Light from God

Nowhere is the there a statement stating the Light and God are comepletely seperate beings, and if this "god" is what's responsible for creation then it must be the Light because that's what JLI mentions as being part of creation.

How the hell do you reconcile the fact that the Presence comes into being after Creation and then say earlier he restarts Creation? That scan contradict's Snyder's statement that you literally tried to justify this with.

Did you actually watch the interview? The Hands of the Source call upon or use the Presence to restart creation, meaning the Presence came AFTER creation was made by Perpetua, and the handbook seems to make a distinction between the Presence and Source, Snyder does so as well because he considers the Presence an emanation of the Source (5:06 - 5:15 in the interview).

That scan says the Presence came after Creation, not before it and thus contradicts 99% of other info about the Presence and therefore outlier cosmology.

Snyder literally says the Presence was called upon after Perpetua messed with creation, so yes it came after.

Who cares? The Presence has feats and statements of Infinite power, and being Eternal, creating a Multiverse/Universe that is Infinite and being beyond Time and Space and this definition of Omnipotence from that guidebook doesn't say Infinite reality warping cannot exist in DC. It's just saying that Omnipotence can at least mean great power but that doesn't mean Omnipotence cannot mean Infinite power, and that doesn't mean no one in DC has Infinite Power and cannot be Eternal as was stated of the Presence, the fact that Infinite Universes and Infinite Multiverses exist in DC implies there was a greater power that created them and this power by definition must be Infinite.

Massive cope.

Even if it did have these statements or feats, it's been weakened before, and the Source has said from it's own mouth that it was diminished after the battle between the Old Gods, clearly contradicting these feats and the newer canon doesn't establish the Presence as truly omnipotent.

What's massive cope is going through old stories that just blatantly don't fit into the modern cosmology, and you're trying to apply them as proof that The Presence/Source has infinite power or is omnipotent.

Overture also tells you that the Presence/Glory of the First Circle is the one in position of responsibility for things related to Creation. And we know the Endless (who are creations of Time and Night) swore fealty to the First Circle from Sandman, so Destiny is still beneath the Presence in power as the Presence defined the laws that bound the Endless their own existence, so it doesn't matter.

In fact, the Presence almost destroyed Father Time as Creation/Time/Space almost disappeared as a result of his absence and almost destroyed Time and Space, that would logically include Father Time. I would argue Father Time is contingent on the Presence as everything happens because the Presence said so and would have destroyed Creation/Time/Space in Lucifer that Father TIme represents.

That would be assuming Father Time/Mother Night is literally time/space itself, whereas Overture described Mother Night as without end, meaning it cannot truly be gone otherwise it would have an end. And when the Presence left it wasn't even affecting all versions of creations, whereas Father Time/Mother Night made all versions possible. Point being this doesn't line up with Pralaya or Perpetua being the creators, it's outdated cosmology.

Overture tells you that Glory of the First Circle is the Presence, who bound the concepts that define Endless and they swear fealty to him.

It doesn't matter since the Presence almost destroyed Time from the beginning and would be logically above Father Time anyway, proving even Father Time is dependent on the Presence for his existence so if Destiny is dependent on Father Time, then Father Time is dependent on the Presence, hell Creation faltering into existence also means even Destiny would be doomed, and Father Time, since the Presence was about to destroy Time from the beginning to the Present.

Presence leaving couldn't even destroy Lucifer's creation lol, let alone all the other ones.

Your points fail here because this thread considers Vertigo's validity in the domain of discourse, so if I were you, I'd stop coping and go talk in a thread that excludes Vertigo's cosmology.

Oh, and your hilarious appeal to newly established outliers that may likely be retconned tomorrow, to downgrade the Presence's long history of not being phased by the destruction of Infinite Universes.

It's hilarious you think of this as outliers that "may likely be retconned tomorrow" when things like the Presence being omnipotent or unable to be weakened has been retconned for well over a decade, and the new cosmology has made it pretty clear it's got limitations, and the events that showcase this are mentioned in DC's own latest handbook, and the events in Vertigo is nowhere to be mentioned, you can't reconcile all these stories into one, you go by what's latest. This is a thread about the Great Darkness, it mentions the events of JLI, what I am discussing is perfectly in line with what the thread mentions.

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@y3kthunder: Darkseid mentioned how the Great Darkness has been lying dormant since the first crisis, but Lucifer appeared in the N52, so how can the GEB still be considered Lucifer? Also the GEB's fight with the Presence happened when the Presence was weakened so I'm guessing the scaling between the two isn't the same as it used to be.

From this post alone it's quite clear you read DC for the sole purpose of downplaying and nitpicking.

So, the Presence created infinite multiverses, then was weakened when one of the infinite multiverses was damaged. That doesn't make any sense.

GEB is the primordial darkness. The abstract representation of everything that is bad. And the Light is the abstract representation of everything that is good. That's how I understood how the light was weakened by the loss of the other universes.

Hope, morality, etc. were weakened by the loss.

N52 is not Neil Gaiman's Lucifer.

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@happylife1996: It has nothing to do with downplaying, it clearly stated that Light was weakened and the Darkness took advantage of that, the Source/Presence was also weakened in Death of the New God's as a result of the actions of the Old Gods, and that story was canonized in the newest DC Encyclopedia.

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@ultraphoenix: Honestly, I'm not sure if the Source is literally the Presence, or an aspect.

It met Green Lantern and mentioned its past appearances and it is clearly different from the Presence. It talked how it manifested before as a hand of fire, a wall, a turtle, etc.

No Caption Provided

No mentions of the appearances of the Presence (the old man, the dog, etc.)

However I do believe the Light and the Presence to be one and the same just like GEB and Lucifer are one and the same.

But again, what you're saying doesn't make sense story wise.

How can the Source or the Light be weakened as a result of something infinitesimal as the gods or even one multiverse? There must be context.

Which is how I came to the conclusion that "Light was weakened by the loss" wasn't referring to raw power.

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@happylife1996: Go read Death of the New Gods again, I believe it was issue #3 that mentioned how the Old Gods had some sort of battle that caused the Source to be weakened.

As for the Source and the Presence, Death Metal referred to them as the same, and usually they're implied to be the same.

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@ultraphoenix: And Green Lantern made them distinct from each other.

The Presence appeared in the same comic as flaming hand/the Source. And their appearances were not used interchangeably.

No Caption Provided

And again, the Death of The New Gods, doesn't make sense to the current position of the Source in the hierarchy.

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#48  Edited By UltraPhoenix
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@ultraphoenix: How come the same Source that created infinite multiverses can be weakened as a result of such a minor event?

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@happylife1996: Who knows, comics aren't very consistent, there isn't even a clear distinction between Vertigo and DC.