The End and Starlins Current Infinity saga are canon , Evidence shown , Change my mind

@rosalinagalaxy3: @y3kthunder: @damnineedabreak: @alonis3612: @userthatisme:

Hey guys wanted to make this post to prove that the End and subsequent Starlin stories are canon , discuss and debate

One of the reasons why people think this End story is non canon is because of Tom Brevoort , despite the fact that that's been proven incorrect on panel numerous times, the statement and opinion of an author who didn't even write the book doesn't outweigh actual comic evidence, especially one who has had such a vendetta against Jim Starlin for years

For example

Not bringing Starlin up to date with current events which is why continuity is hard to pin down

This is taken from an interview Starlin did to promote Infinity Revelation,

Prevented Starlin from using Warlock in his stories after he appeared in the first OGN

The above image also confirms that the Savage Hulk series Jim is referring to is indeed the Thanos vs Hulk mini series, below is the actual scan from the mini series

It also turns out it's not so anonymous as Brevoort knew about it, from his personal Formspring account, in response to a fan asking about the Starlin/Warlock situation

In the full interview its evident that Brevoort is a liar

Brevoort Interview

Him and Andy Scmhit did this before which is why he left Thanos' solo ongoing

This is Tom's response

Approving Cates King Thanos story that is similar to Starlin's latest OGN, this from Starlin Facebook page

Here's an article about it

A more recent one is that Brevoort put out this collection just when Starlin was successful in getting his Dreadstar Returns Graphic Novel funded

Marvel Editorial were really lac lax sending Starlin finished copies of his book , that he had to buy it himself even though he authored it and should have got an advanced copy

There are no less then three mentions and references to the HOtU in canon books , lets go through them amongst other evidence

1st there's this from the 2003 Thanos series which leads to another canon event Annihilation

2nd there's is this from Infinity Revelation

3rd and this from Infinity Finale , omni-reality perception refers to the HOtU

Just to confirm that these Infinity stories are canon as Jim starlin has mentioned numerous times in Interviews (can show if you want) despite not being told about current marvel by ,,,, yep you guessed it Tom Brevoort. This recap page from the Thanos annual that ties into the OGN's by starlin mentions current 616 events at the time (Hickman's Infinity)

The mini series Thanos vs Hulk thats connected to Infinity revelation actually is the same hulk in mark waid's run when he was a Shield agent

Here's starlin confirming that

This is again confirmed to take place in 616 Marvel Now continuity when he was a Shield agent

Gallery

Something I want to show aswell it's a Hbotmu entry and states that while some occurred in a different Universe some happened in 616, just above his head

Another piece of evidence that it's canon is the possible reference to Warlock Tribunal in the mail section of the Ultimates

Here's an explanation from a Jim Starlin Art book that tells us why The End is thought to be out of continuity, he wrote it In a different vein then the other End books

To confirm that the OGNs that connect to the End is canon it's stated that it's in the 616 Universe, this is from the official Marvel Website

And for good measure here's an entry from the Thanos Sourcebook

The End also mentions past events in 616 Thanos history

More tongue in cheek but still adds weight that the Heart of the Universe is canon from Thanos annual 2018

The recent Starlin Thanos material that mentions the End also reference notable events on 616 such as the Annihilation War , Thanos Redemption and Thor Vol 1 #166

Gallery

Notice how the editor note in the first and third images is Tom , as in Tom Brevoort ,the first is from Infinity Siblings and the third is from The Infinity Entity a mini series set in-between Infinity Relatively and Infinity Finale both connected to stories that hold the End as Canon

And the second is from The Infinity Revelation again connecting the recent Starlin stories

One thing I do want to mention is the designation of the End as Earth 4321 rather then 616 , it has already been established that same took part in 4322 and some in 616 , this is due to the time travel done by Thanos in 616 stopping Ahkenaten from taking over , the alternate timeline that we see where he does take over is the 4321 universe

And here are mentions and references to The End and the Heart of the universe/infinite

Marvel Fact Files #18 Thanos' profile

Marvel Fact Files #31 Warlock's profile

Marvel Fact Files #42 Another Thanos profile

Marvel Encyclopedia Fantastic Four - Akhenaten's profile

All new Handbook to the Marvel Universe A-Z issue #11 (2006)

Another piece of evidence is that Nxy (Avengers No Surrender) mentioned TOAA as TOAAO which seemingly confirms that AAO and TOAA are the same

And just to stamp it home here is all the ways it fits in continuity

I’ve taken a snapshot of a page I find to particularly helpful in placing The Infinity Finale’s location within the Marvel multiverse:

In it, we can see the following, of note:

1. What appears to be Hickman’s Hyperion, from the most recent run of Avengers, New Avengers, and Avengers World
2. Corvus Glaive (bottom left) of the Black Order, one of Thanos’ personal lieutenants (and one of Hickman’s personal creations)
3. The new Captain Universe (just left of Nova, and just right of Carol), also from Avengers & New Avengers. Later pages in the OGN show that she is most definitely a she.
4. Captain Marvel, sporting her costume and haircut specifically seen in her recently concluded run (2014–15) that dovetailed with Hickman’s Avengers and New Avengers titles
5. Smasher (next to Drax), also a character recently introduced into the 616 continuity by Hickman!

These—especially Hyperion—are developments that, to the best of our understanding, are ones specific to the Earth-616 universe. There are, admittedly, a few (seeming) inconsistencies, at least at first:

1. Loki appears to be in his ‘elder’ form, despite having turned into a child (then a teenager) long before Hickman’s Avengers titles. This could conceivably be the elder king Loki seen in the last few issue(s?) of Loki: Agent of Asgard, or some product of the current Loki’s machinations (which we’ve seen to be possible, from The Mighty Thor #4).
2. The Venom symbiote appears to be in its corrupted form despite being bonded to Flash Thompson at this time. One possible explanation is that the ‘savage’ biology driving the corrupt symbiote has taken over due to Flash’s inability to detach it from his body (it’s explained periodic separation from the parasite is necessary for Flash not to fully lose control).
3. Thor still being worthy isn’t necessarily an inconsistency, as there’s a gap of time during which all of the above character conditions are satisfied and he’s still worthy (Thor being unworthy, within Hickman’s runs, doesn’t actually come into play until the latter half of New Avengers)…
4. Nor is Galactus not being in his life-bringer form, as the presence of the above characters places this storyline firmly before the events of The Ultimates #2, where Galactus turned golden, and the All-New All-Different Marvel retcon itself.

This seems to be supported by a later panel:

In it, we can clearly see:

1. Star Lord (right above Adam Warlock’s head), donning his new face mask as of the 2013–2015 run of Guardians of the Galaxy. This happens to occur roughly around the same time as the above.
2. Of course, we can see Smasher (all the way to the left, midway down the page) and the new Captain Universe (to the right of Wolverine), further backing this up…
3. But of particular significance are:
   1. Cyclops (bottom right), sporting the mask only taken up by him in Brian Michael Bendis’ 2013–16 Uncanny X-Men title. Unsurprisingly, this happens exactly at the same time as all of the above Avengers jazz.
   2. The Sam Alexander Nova, just right of Elektra and Hulk at the mid-top of the page. Again, this development is one extremely recent, and well within the same time constraints we’re looking to be met.
   3. Agent Venom (between Iron Man and Namor), which suggests the above theory regarding Venom’s savage appearance earlier is in fact correct. This happened in Vol. 3 of the aforementioned Guardians of the Galaxy run.
   4. Groot, whose head strongly resembles that of the MCU Groot. You might dismiss this as insignificant, but it’s a development native to the Earth-616 canon that specifically occurred with its Groot’s appearance after the Black Vortex crossover.
   5. And just for kicks: We can actually use the latter two (b & c) points, assuming the continuity has been respected, to place where the 2013–2015 Guardians of the Galaxy run stood timeline-wise relative to the other mainstream Avengers titles during this timeframe. Neato!

And if that’s not enough proof, the OGN concludes in what appears to be the All-New All-Different Marvel multiverse:

…featuring the teams from the Extraordinary X-Men, All-New All-Different Avengers, and Uncanny X-Men ongoings, respectively. The next page featuring a purple Galactus is presumably before his transformation in The Ultimates #2. Same with Eternity being chained: we can infer it’s a relatively recent development with regards to the The Ultimates storyline.

Regarding Earth-4321 designation, that is not meant to apply to all of the story but rather to the fact that the book features an alternate timeline where Akhenaten took control of the world and killed the heroes. That is an alternate timeline because due to Thanos' time travel, in the 616 universe, Akhenaten never gained HOTU. Akhenaten only did so in the 4321 timeline and he conquered the world there.

You didn't mention this but I have seen people say this. I wanted to clarify.

@starsprime3: ah thank you ,that's where people are getting confused aswell they think because is has a designation of 4321 that it mean the story is in that universe but specifically refers to the timeline

Ok

I never cared if they were canon or not. It’s better to be canon imo.

to what this dude is saying. Ur mainly right bout some stuff, but the conenction u make are outise its own story trying tpo link it to its own history. The history and everything that happen within the story was true and u clleary mentioned this, which in turn is good, but ur source is connecting the story of the others to it, when most of those story happened after and in their own way its the most consistent glass canon, only to throw some easter egg to mention story. Most are reference to what u said from other story, but in terms of Marvel The End really is isn't in the main continuity. Its totally not truley just non-canon and ur reasoning put it in this, but in canon speak its the story thats non-canon, anything happening it it is mainly canon.

@damnineedabreak: lol most of what you said you didn't make sense

It also mentions events in the past

I'd like you to address my evidence in my post if you want to be taken seriously

@damnineedabreak: Either way I won't argue but the intention in at least some books (handbook and comic) is that some of the story (the latter in particular) is 616. At the very least (if The End is non-canon), 4321 timeline is supposed to be the HOTU Akhenaten universe and not the entire The End book. That is mainly what I am arguing.

6 yeras ago is 2014, he in general talks bout Thanos, speaking through canon speaking was not his point nor intention, its to pint out Adam Warlock and his reference link, The non canon part alr came after the story was released, so he didn't make this post just to say story that other editors put were non canon themselves for saying non canon.

To the second scan there was no link, his addressing his book, but doesn't speak to what it is, canon or non-canon. This has no link to The End.

This is also has no link, it points out how hard he works just for the editos say no to this. we see Jim Starlin loves Thanos and the plot makes the story, but has no link if its canon or not. When I mention everything happening within the story took place, just the the story itself, makin the whole thing non-canon.

This story is linkin to its own self, because each event took place after another, this isn't a link to saying its in the main continuity connecting to its past self in 2003.

A brief overview in Thanos part, not to link the story to MArvel the End, tho I will admit since this took place before The End, this was it trying to hint The Heart, whichs obvis doesnt connect to canon or non canon speak.

What ever ur tying to connect doesnt make sense, Warlock Tribunal wasn't a reality till Tim e Runs Out which happen way after the End. The only thing close to it was Thanos infinity Revelation, which went into Thanos breif history of power gathering, its doesnt not retcon his story in The End to be canon.

He wanted fans to interpret to what they want, he admits it was really vague because how does ADAm link to Tribunal into any event before the Killing of The Tribunal which didn't happen till Secret Wars and then again in Ultimates both story doesn't have a link to Starlin, it only manages to have a brief overview to stepping into Starlin because of Adam Warlock who literally appears almost every time because he was replacing TLT as the new authority, other than that there is no link hence the Vagueness.

for ur next thing the other dude summed it up correctly. "Regarding Earth-4321 designation, that is not meant to apply to all of the story but rather to the fact that the book features an alternate timeline where Akhenaten took control of the world and killed the heroes. That is an alternate timeline because due to Thanos' time travel, in the 616 universe, Akhenaten never gained HOTU. Akhenaten only did so in the 4321 timeline and he conquered the world there."

Its his own source-book ofc this would include every version this include HOTU.

This is irrelevant at most, In Infinity Conflict it mentions Thanos History, in every way does it also mention his history because The End wasn't non canon cuz of the history because like I said everything such as History and what happens are canon.

I actually like this cuz this was a gag, not an actual thing, When Thanos asked as in HOTU they just said soemthing of-tpoic, this story happened way after The End, it was only an easter egg that they wanted to hint for the fan, as for what it does for its own canoness, nothing.

Last few links are to express what happens in story, what does that have to do with Canon.

BUT HOWEVER THIS STORY COULD CERTAINLY BE CANON AND THE DUDE CLAIM IS WRONG. i MEAN i DO RESPECT sTARLIN FOR MENTIONING IT IN OTHEER COMICS AND THE OTHER EDITORS BE HATING ON HIM, LOOK DUDE THE STORY EVENTS ARE CANON, STORY ITSELF ISN'T, BUT I ACTUALLY BELIEVE THIS STORY IS CANON, however I do still have to take in consideration some stuff to makin it actually canon, because it has some factors to it that doesnt, in reality it isn't canon, till they reintroduce 616 into it because any of the Infinity events didd fall into 616. Plus Tom statement I can't take seriously, So good work, but dont tage or I have to respond to it. So @cull_obsidian good job on ur thread and if ppl see this they def could consder it canon, BUT DONT TAG ME unless u want me to pick a winner on a battle. Your evidence do temp me tho to see this as Canon, either way Good job.

@starsprime3: and this i Understand. 616 is include some way or some how because its main continuity. I mean Beyonder also was 616, some has many story, but like u said that doesnt tie into wheter its canon or not. I mean honestly I don't even care I came Lucifer vs HOTU Thanos thread and I still say Lucifer regardless of Canon or Not cuz it doesnt prove power scaling if it does to either way of it being canon or not. Regardless I dont even wanna debate on this, but ofc I have to get tagged.

I never understand why people bring up if something is canon or not within a battle. Even if it is canon what means that the character is stronger? that’s like saying wf Mxy isn’t canon so he isn’t powerful

Its about consistency and continuity, which power levels rely on. Thats why we have threads for canon characters, while some other threads will specify composite versions.

Ah. Like the vertigo and dc canon stuff.

...Not gonna lie, I'm not reading all that lol. So to summarize, HOTU Thanos is canon?

Thanos vs. Hulk which is literally part of the same chain as Thanos: Infinity etc. and Marvel: The End and everything else, is said to take place during the time when Hulk worked for Shield. Entirely canon.

@cull_obsidian: Did Starlin's book that had a similar plot to Cates' "Thanos Wins" ever come out ? Which book is it ?

@cull_obsidian: oh I have no issue with it being canon nor it being multiversal I just wanted to point out if it was confined to 616 as said scan implied an Thanos became all there is that would be universal I actually like the idea of multiversal hotu Thanos dunno if you know this Thanos was one of the beings who got me into comics seeing him gather objects of mass power an bring abstracts to there knees yes please. On one hand I see regulator Thanos as hella Starlin wank. I love it at the same time

@thor-parker: It was his recent OGN trilogy of Thanos: The Infinity Siblings, Thanos: The Infinity Conflict, and Thanos: The Infinity Ending?

@damnineedabreak: hey thank you for taking time to address and for the kind words at the end , but I don't think you understand what canon and continuity is

And have misinterpreted the evidence , if you don't wish to respond that's fair enough but you have definitely got confused as to what I am conveying , some evidence was trying to provide context to editors intent and not directly link to the end

If Starlin's later stories are canon then The End IS aswell

@thor-parker: @kevd4wg: yeah his last Thanos story Infinity Siblings-Conflict-Ending did come out

@indomitableregal: lol no worries ,yeah I'd say it's canon

@cull_obsidian: @kevd4wg: Were there really that much similarities between that story and "Thanos Wins" ?

@thor-parker: just the Current Thanos seeing his Future self and winning

Superficial , but marvel and Brevoort were not forthcoming about what was in the book , not the first time as detailed above in the op so all Starlin know was that there was two stories featuring a future Thanos winning and even tho is was thought of first due to Brevoort Messing around and not sorting anything for more then a month the series by cates was coming out before Starlin's , he wasn't blaming Cates at all , just that due to Brevoorts vendetta against him it wasnt sorted

@thor-parker: forgot to add this to my comment

@thor-parker: Definitely similar enough to where editorial should've done something, at least imo.

Can I have a TLDR version please?

@kevd4wg: yeah I agree , and the amount Brevoort went back and forth on wether he thought it was similar was pathetic and very unprofessional

@takenstew22: haha sure , The End and Starlin's recent stories are canon

I know what your main point is from the title, I meant a shorter version.

It exists in "Starlin canon." His works with Thanos are largely self-contained, which is why the only books that reference HotU are other Starlin Thanos books (2003 Thanos, the recent OGNs). The 2003 book "leads into" Annihilation which is canon, but the latter half of the series wasn't written by Starlin it was written by Keith Giffen.

Starlin's "The End" book isn't the only "The End" book that Marvel wrote, but they are by definition non-canon books. I don't really consider the recent infinity OGNs to be canon either, since they're based on a non-canon version of Thanos and are entirely unconnected from continuity

@deagonx: I'm guessing that you haven't actually read my post, there is many many more pieces of evidence , from different sources and from canon comics that all point to it being canon

Please re-read and address the points

@takenstew22: I have basically amassed various different forms of evidence from all different sources that confirms that the end is canon and also explains why It could seem out of canon

@deagonx:

It exists in "Starlin canon."

That's a ridiculous thing to say , no one has ever said that neither has anyone at marvel including starlin

works with Thanos are largely self-contained, which is why the only books that reference HotU are other Starlin Thanos books (2003 Thanos, the recent OGNs).

That's also not true , as many of his stories are referenced by other writers, such as infinity Abyss (which is also mentioned in the recent Starlin stories) was referenced in a she hulk story regarding a Thanosi which in turn referenced the Squirrel girl story . His works have also shown a shared continuity with crossover events that he had no hand in such as Annihilation and Thanos imperative

The 2003 book "leads into" Annihilation which is canon, but the latter half of the series wasn't written by Starlin it was written by Keith Giffen.

Wait what you are literally saying that the first half isn't canon because it's written by Starlin?, A series that's mentions a work then leads into a universally considered canon work which is then referenced by another work which also mentions the work that the lead in to the canon work mentions means it's all canon all the same shared continuity

Starlin's "The End" book isn't the only "The End" book that Marvel wrote, but they are by definition non-canon books.

That's true they are supposed to be but this is explained in the following image

This means that Marvel didnt tell Starlin about the End series so he wrote it with the intention of it being canon ,and marvel had no problem, this essentially means that it's only an End series in name only

I don't really consider the recent infinity OGNs to be canon either, since they're based on a non-canon version of Thanos and are entirely unconnected from continuity

You have no evidence to say that he is literally 616 Thanos , this has been confirmed to be the 616 universe in the Starlin stories so by definition it's the same Thanos, the reason places seem out of continuity is because of this

So yeah it's all canon , if something mentions past canon events and is mentioned by other comics that also have canon Evidence then at the end of the day you have to say it's canon

@damnineedabreak: hey if you dont want your points responded to and frankly ripped apart as you have zero evidence buy mostly incoherent babbling about how a comic mentioning a canon event doesn't make it canon then please delete your comment

You have misunderstood my points I'd like to debate this but if not when your reasoning is clearly wrong then as I said delete it as you don't add anything here if you don't want me to respond

@cull_obsidian:

Please re-read and address the points

No, I don't really feel like it.

no one has ever said that neither has anyone at marvel including starlin

Okay.

Wait what you are literally saying that the first half isn't canon because it's written by Starlin?

No, I'm saying the portion of the book which referenced Starlin's non-canon "The End" was also written by Starlin. The part of the book that led into Annihilation was written by Giffen.

A series that's mentions a work then leads into a universally considered canon work which is then referenced by another work which also mentions the work that the lead in to the canon work mentions means it's all canon all the same shared continuity

Not necessarily, no. There have been alternative explanations produced.

That's true they are supposed to be but this is explained in the following image

Is there some greater context to that statement which would give me reason to interpret it "what Marvel was requesting" as "write a non-canon story?" I don't see what relevance this has by itself.

he wrote it with the intention of it being canon

Okay, but they published it as non-canon.

You have no evidence to say that he is literally 616 Thanos

He's HotU Thanos, which is not 616 Thanos.

if something mentions past canon events and is mentioned by other comics that also have canon Evidence then at the end of the day you have to say it's canon

Well the glory of the internet is that I don't have to say anything. The very basis for an alternate universe is that it is very similar to another universe, but with distinct differences. The idea that a canon event happened in two universes, one in continuity and one that isn't, doesn't really contradict the fact that one of them isn't in continuity.

You're welcome to continue discussing this if you want, but at the end of the day myself and many other Marvel readers will never consider The End canon nor the recent Infinity OGNs for the reasons listed. You may not find those reasons convincing, but likewise I don't find your argument terribly convincing either. Marvel editors are the authority on Marvel canon, and they have given their judgment on this.

@cull_obsidian: would be nice to include more mentions of HOTU from handbooks and Thanos Sourcebook

@alonis3612: I've included about 5 links to nmentions of the h0tu in handbooks just before the last 3 images

The last part is new after the links , its how I've got it into continuity

Why am I pinged? I literally said I could care less if it’s canon or not and said I prefer it as canon as I add 99-100% of the time non-canon stuff to become canon even if it ruins the continuity of the verse.

@mar-vell92:

@mar-vell92:

@cull_obsidian: Have you seen the new issue of Heroes Reborn where Thanos with Infinity Gems gets trashed by Doctor Spectrum?

F**k off Aaron.

@mar-vell92: I haven't and don't think I will, its not Canon, its an alternative universe

Still canon

That's a load of bs then, and just caters to Thanos fanboys.

@superdarth: how so, be specific with examples

@superdarth: still waiting

@cull_obsidian: jeez man, you are dedicated.

@applekidthethird: Appreciate it 😊 although I've still got a CAV post people are waiting for, been a year lol

@cull_obsidian:

@Properthe1

Post your debunking argument here

@properthe1:

You said you will debunk this thread so where are you now post your counter argument if any.