The Best of Anakin Skywalker (RotS) - A Legends Respect Thread [Incomplete]

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ShootingNova

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@yousufkhan1212: We spent four years fighting Mace fanboys here. You'd think that Silver's blog would put an end to it all, but it didn't.

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ViperSixteen

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@yousufkhan1212: We spent four years fighting Mace fanboys here. You'd think that Silver's blog would put an end to it all, but it didn't.

Whenever I argue with them outside of this Forum I keep spamming the link of the blog whenever they keep saying Mace nearly killed Palpatine to shut them up.

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ShootingNova

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@yousufkhan1212: Not sure if people always want to read through all of the blog, unfortunately.

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ViperSixteen

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@yousufkhan1212: Not sure if people always want to read through all of the blog, unfortunately.

That's why I post it to them sometimes, and they also complained about my comments being too long to read, but I did have a lot of nonsense to refute.

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ShootingNova

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@yousufkhan1212: There really was a time when I thought Mace fanboys were the worst because they were just so narrow-minded.

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ViperSixteen

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@yousufkhan1212: There really was a time when I thought Mace fanboys were the worst because they were just so narrow-minded.

They're one of the worse fanbases I've ever argued with, even worse than Galen Marek's, I hate Galen with a passion, but the difference is that I have a lot of fun hating on him and his annoying fanbase who keep claiming he pulled a star destroyer out of the sky, wrecked Palpatine, curbostomped Vader lol.

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ShootingNova

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#108  Edited By ShootingNova

@yousufkhan1212: It's a lot easier to disprove Galen fanboys than Mace fanboys, that's true.

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CT123

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@shootingnova: "We spent four years fighting Mace fanboys here. You'd think that Silver's blog would put an end to it all, but it didn't."

You've been doing this for years and you still think that this hobby has some kind of universal debate structure and standards (as your second sentence would appear to imply anyway)? :hmm

Standards vary from board to board. Some structures can be argued to function better than others. Still all comes down to established precedents largely based on a community's agreed upon subjective conclusions *shrugs*

The main point is to keep your conclusions, subjective they may be, consistent in all like scenario as you can.

But that's just my 2 cents from having partaken in this stupid hobby for more than half a decade now *shrugs*

As for the blog itself?

What other powers/feats do you plan to add? Mostly been offensive powers so far, got anything for Anakin's defensive prowess?

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ViperSixteen

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@yousufkhan1212: It's a lot easier to disprove Galen fanboys than Mace fanboys, that's true.

All it takes is one quote to disprove their claims. Can't say the same for Mace fanboys...

The worst things about the different types of Star Wars fanboys you find on the Internet outside of this Forum is the sheer quantity of them, they're literally everywhere spreading false information like forest fire and jumping on the bandwagon, they never becoming extinct. And whenever they're spreading around the false information, they come in large swarms, and whenever you confront them, you're usually alone with no help and it's trying to deal with half a dozen or more morons that don't shut up is exhausting, especially for YouTube, WollfMyth knows what I'm talking about, on his old account where he used to party crash on EvanNova95's Versus Videos by ripping apart his arguments, he came off as aggressive and this obviously attracted Evan's attention and more importantly... His loyal fans. Wollf wasn't calm, he was usually a savage and when I say savage, I mean it in a good way and bad way, the good way is that he makes Evan look like a fool, but the bad way is that he comes off as cruel and disrespectful. Wollf had the problem of dealing with Evan's fanboys on a daily basis... By himself. I have actually seen him getting attacked and swamped by them at once, sometimes he managed to win and have victories, but these victories were momentary and the comment sections Wollf was debating in would get bumped. The Transformers GIFS I posted a few days ago are perfect representations of them, I even asked Wollf himself. Wollf eventually deleted because he got fed up of trying to defend himself by that many horribly misinformed people at once, and I don't blame him.

This is a problem for Star Wars debates on YouTube. Regardless of how hard you try to subdue them and gain some control over what's being established in the comment sections, you'll eventually get tired and loose your patience. My point is that one man can't change the outcome of what the different types of Star Wars fanboys think of and try establish because said man is outnumbered. And as for the Zombie comparism I mentioned earlier if you'd like to hear why I mentioned it, the massive hordes Zombies will come out on top because you don't have enough bullets to eliminate every single one of them, and once you've run out of bullets, the Zombies will win, especially when you're the only one.

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ShootingNova

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@yousufkhan1212: YouTube's filled with idiots and I can't watch any of the debates for long because of how shamefully lackluster they are.

@ct123: Well, four and a half years. And no, nothing's constant, but I'd thought that Silver's blog would at least make them acknowledge that it's arguable, and that's the tragedy with a lot of Mace fanboys - since they claim to know what's fact and what isn't and they're not willing to accept the possibility of anything other than Mace winning outright. I really did think that people would be willing to take in the blog's contents. What I meant was that we discovered otherwise.

As for this blog, I may add something for some other powers like TP and so on, but I'm mainly making this as a repository of Anakin's accolades, and putting in a few of the top showings to show what he's capable of when he's at or near his best.

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ViperSixteen

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#112  Edited By ViperSixteen

@yousufkhan1212: YouTube's filled with idiots and I can't watch any of the debates for long because of how shamefully lackluster they are.

@ct123: Well, four and a half years. And no, nothing's constant, but I'd thought that Silver's blog would at least make them acknowledge that it's arguable, and that's the tragedy with a lot of Mace fanboys - since they claim to know what's fact and what isn't and they're not willing to accept the possibility of anything other than Mace winning outright. I really did think that people would be willing to take in the blog's contents. What I meant was that we discovered otherwise.

As for this blog, I may add something for some other powers like TP and so on, but I'm mainly making this as a repository of Anakin's accolades, and putting in a few of the top showings to show what he's capable of when he's at or near his best.

Yeah, the current state of Star Wars debates on YouTube are so bad it can't be fixed.

And I've also got an off topic question... Do you know a good website or happen to have a link where I can make good GIFS? I can't to make good quality GIFS that are HD that are clear and no captions. The only way you can make these HD GIFS is if you download a software that will either cost money or make some very challenging demands.

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ShootingNova

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#113  Edited By ShootingNova

@yousufkhan1212: I mean, YouTube's always been a haven for imbeciles on nearly every topic.

I used to use ImgFlip, but I've found a better site in GIPHY. And there's also IMGUR for 15 second GIFs (the others only have 10 seconds max), and it's a lot larger, but it doesn't really look as good.

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ViperSixteen

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@shootingnova: Oh yeah that's true, YouTube is cancerous even outside of the Star Wars fanbase.

GIPHY sounds like the best option then.

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STELIOS23

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@shootingnova:

Great work M8.

How would u rate Plo Koon against Anakin come ROTS.

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ShootingNova

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@stelios23: Thanks.

Anakin chops him down in a few strikes ala Drallig.

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WollfMyth209

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@shootingnova: Despite Obi-Wan knowing it was coming, the hindered Anakin still managed to stun Kenobi with the sheer ferocity of his attacks:

While the Jedi had known the attack was coming, its ferocity momentarily stunned him.

The Official Star Wars Fact File(2014 edition) #19

Anakin then drives Obi-Wan back, then kicked Kenobi:

Obi-Wan was driven to the very edge of the landing platform before he managed to rally. He slipped under Vader's guard, but took a hard kick to the chest.

The Official Star Wars Fact File(2014 edition) #19

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Nothing overly impressive, but Anakin TPs two rancors:

No Caption Provided

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ViperSixteen

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@shootingnova: You should add this feat:

While tremendously Pre Prime, Anakin unleashes a Force blast that's so powerful it sends a Tusken spearmen flying thirty meters in mid air, and even smashing through the wall of a Tusken hut.

"Then he shoved out with that hand, and the Tusken spearman flew away, fully thirty meters, smashing through the wall of yet another hut." - Attack of the Clones Novel.

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WollfMyth209

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Anakin, even as a Jedi padawan, is impressively powerful to the point that many Jedi fear his power:

No Caption Provided

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ShootingNova

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@wollfmyth209: Remember, this is a thread for him in RotS. I'm only including accolades like Anakin growing vastly more powerful since Season 5 as a means of bridging. I made an exception with TK feats since RotS doesn't give him that many.

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WollfMyth209

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#122  Edited By WollfMyth209
@shootingnova said:

@wollfmyth209: Remember, this is a thread for him in RotS. I'm only including accolades like Anakin growing vastly more powerful since Season 5 as a means of bridging. I made an exception with TK feats since RotS doesn't give him that many.

Eeeeh... But alright. Also, check your PMs. I found something that says Dooku > Maul.

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LordOfTheLight

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#123  Edited By LordOfTheLight

@shootingnova

I've already answered this. Yoda's quotes refer to power in a mastered, effective sense. So it's directly translatable to the battle forums. Anakin being more powerful refers to raw power, which isn't always directly translatable to fights because he can't bring all of it to bear, much less in combative situations.

The fact that Anakin has more raw power than Yoda was established ever since Episode 1. The effective power he brings to bear, however, isn't greater, since his knowledge and mastery of the Force is significantly eclipsed by Yoda's, which allows Yoda to call upon a much more substantive fraction of his power than Anakin can.

None of those quotes say that Yoda's most powerful has anything to do with mastered power, or not. They say, point blank that Yoda IS the most powerful.

You are basically saying that Anakin has more potential than Yoda, WHICH was established from episode 1. That is indisputable. But if you say that Anakin can't bring his potential to bear due to having vastly lesser mastery or knowledge of the Force than Yoda, then why even bother arguing. That extra power remains just that, unrealized potential, which can be realized, only by a greater mastery, age, experience, knowledge, etc, and not by an Anakin at ROTS. We are talking of only power that CAN be realized, under which circumstances, Yoda is flat out his superior.

The last quote suggests that he was the strongest Jedi, not that he was above the second most powerful by a huge amount.

This truth: that he, the avatar of light, Supreme Master of the Jedi Order, the fiercest, most implacable, most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known...

Credit: Revenge of the Sith

"Most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known", pretty much indicates that.

Ood Bnar never ragdolled Exar Kun.

I am pretty sure I would call this ragdolling:

No Caption Provided

Yeah, seems like ragdolling to me. And he couldn't cross the barrier set up by Ood as well, so he should be inferior to an Ossus amped Ood Bnar.

Kun was safely out of the Cron Cluster when Aleema Keto detonated it, if that's the supernova thing you're referring to.

Ood Bnar withstood the explosion of the supernova, not Exar Kun( sorry for the horrible sentence).

I did argue this for a while but I think it's fair to say that in the context of the RotS novel, Anakin might not even be considered a foe of the darkness.

The coin does flip, but only after he has snipped off Dooku's head. Besides, the quote states "The most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known....", and it is pretty much a lynchpin in stating it. Anakin only crosses that barrier after the incident on the IH, and this could just as easily refer to an Anakin just days before. Besides, being substantially above someone who withstands the explosion of a supernova, and ragdolls Exar Kun, is well and truly out of Anakin's paygrade.

It was getting tiring, but nothing leads to me to believe that it was particularly extensive fatigue. Certainly no more than the fight against Obi-Wan and Anakin in AotC would have tired Dooku before his fight with Yoda.

What?

Dooku was getting tired even when the Jedi were playing around using Ataru and Shien. With both of them, becoming vastly better, and Djem So already playing a massive role, yes, it would be extensively fatiguing. And both Jedi were not only tired after the fight in the arena, but also vastly inferior to their ROTS incarnations( especially Anakin). No, the fight in ROTS would be much more taxing.

Anakin was hurting Dooku badly with his Djem So even before Obi-Wan was removed from the fight.

He was hurting, but not badly. He still had a good stock of the situation, and could respond accurately and fight, unlike later wherein his reserves were simply too drained to even give a proper fight to him.

No, it's not slightly. It's a considerable hindrance, as evinced from the fact that Dooku goes from being completely overwhelmed by Anakin's charge to meeting it easily.

There is a very distinct difference between recognizing when your opponent has become much better, and being taken completely by surprise, to being completely overwhelmed. Sure, he was being heavily strained, but it is: 1. Djem So 2. Anakin. And no, he isn't completely overwhelmed, his reactions are of extreme surprise, and noting how Makashi is heavily vulnerable to Djem So. Finally, Anakin was in an enhanced state throughout the fight( and even more enhanced after Sidious's intervention), which was quite more than a simple bloodlust, I will elucidate in my next reply.

Dooku washed away his fatigue after Anakin kicked him over the railing.

The quote I mentioned takes place, "after" the one you mentioned. And yes, he washes away his fatigue by drawing more power, which doesn't change the fact that he was severely fatigued in the first place, and to such an extent that he felt the "weight of his years", when you have personally reminded me that he is fitter than most beings half his age. Besides, even after Anakin is severely enhanced by Palpatine's words, the fight goes on for quite some time, which doesn't indicate that he was "completely overwhelmed" against a quite inferior version of Anakin.

Sidious admits in the RotS novel that Anakin is potentially more powerful than him. I posted the quote in the thread.

I am well aware of that. And this only, more firmly secures the fact that most of Anakin's hype is about his potential, not actual power that he can bring to the table.

Potential is raw power. Nobody in SW has the ability to sense somebody's future power without foresight. It's about attaining the knowledge and mastery to wield your raw power to grow stronger - that's what mostly happens. You can expand your raw power but allowing the Force to grow within you and deepening your connection to the Force, but nobody can sense how much of that you can do. They can only sense your raw power, as I said.

It's why whenever a character senses power, they sense Anakin being stronger than Yoda, as opposed to vice-versa. On the other hand, quotes for Yoda's supremacy come entirely from objective sources, not characters, since it isn't something sensed. That's because you can't really sense mastered power, which is where Yoda is greater than Anakin.

That's quite a convoluted argument for such a simple point. If you are referring to power sensed by Dooku, then the massive advantage of Djem So, shouldn't be discounted, really. In addition to the fact that Anakin was enhanced throughout the fight, and was fighting Dooku with immense venom. The exact opposite can be said for Yoda. Not only is Makashi, quite superior to Ataru, but Yoda, in DR, makes it crystal clear that he immensely cares for Dooku, which should imply that he holds back massively. Because, Sidious, Yoda's true peer can, and has annihilated Dooku.

Yoda doesn't hold parity in the Force with Sidious. There's more (and more recent) quotes claiming that Sidious was too strong for Yoda to beat, or him being outright overpowered.

This IMO, is hardly, if at all, debatable. The fight should make it abundantly obvious. And there are an equal number of quotes stating that Yoda approaches Sidious in the force. As for being outright overpowered, that quote, is laughably contradicted by the fight in the movie( and the main novel, and the junior novel), where the exact opposite is true.

Within months of AotC, Anakin was telekinetically manipulating Conqueror-class dreadnaughts. Might not compare, but again, Anakin grows vastly in power from Season 5 TCW to RotS alone, let alone the entirety of the Clone Wars.

Him, being Tk'ed by Barris Offee, and continually being challenged by Ventress, having comparable sub-standard feats throughout TCW makes me severely doubt that. Anyways, you are probably correct, but let us also note that he was massively straining himself while manipulating that dreadnaught, and he only managed to tilt it.

For feats of Yoda, defer to Sidious. None of those feats are Yoda's maximum, which effectively is stalemating Sidious in a contest of raw power. And Sidious has caused storms across the galaxy via hologram, without so much as gesturing, choked Dooku again across the galaxy, and has drained millions, again across the galaxy( shortly after ROTS). And yes, those feats, are not vastly, but infinitely more than what Anakin has shown.

Also, 90 x 30m domes are larger than your average restaurant, by far.

The area of the room, is roughly equal to that of a 25 m square approximately, which isn't far larger than your average restaurant( though the 30 m height is impressive), at all. The area of a restaurant should be the same, or possibly greater, and the height of the restaurant building should be around half that of the room. Anakin needed force rage to collapse the ceiling, whereas Sidious "mused" that he could do it with contemptuous ease. And finally this was decades before TPM, which was more than a decade before ROTS.

Not really. Anakin's showings mostly come from before his prime (by a huge margin), but we are seeing similar showings.

Not really. Sidious( the peer of Yoda)'s showings are, quite frankly, infinitely better. And the LoE feat, which needed force rage to accomplish, IS at Anakin's prime( one might ask, with good reason, that it isn't the limit of his showings, but IMO, if he really is that powerful, then he should have annihilated the entire building, given that he was in an uncontrollable fit of rage).

That was Dooku speculating what Yoda might become if he was a Sith Lord. My point was about Dooku actually seeing Anakin's power, not speculating it.

Speculation, which isn't as unfounded as to simply be discarded, as Dooku was Yoda's padawan and we know for a fact that Yoda has a special affection for him, even after Dooku has turned to the dark side. And we've already covered this. The huge role form advantages have to play should be considered in a way that is the polar opposite of discarding. Along with the fact that Yoda holds back massively( as is outright implied in DR, and Yoda's performance against Dooku on Vjun, even after that was better than in Geonosis), and the fact that Anakin was enhanced throughout the fight, and was attacking Dooku in stark contrast to how Yoda was; with particular venom.

My point was that Anakin has more raw power than Yoda, which is, in other words, potential. As I said, Yoda wields more mastered power, which is why his showings are better. The power he can actually bring to the table is better than Anakin's.

I think the nomenclature here is causing problems. If Anakin can't bring his apparent "raw power" to the table then factually Yoda is the most powerful Jedi till ROTS. In an alternate scenario, where Anakin "can" bring out his powers to the forefront he would have displaced Yoda as the most powerful Jedi, but that didn't happen. And I thought by raw power, one means the power that manifests itself in the crude and basic applications of the force like telekinesis, choke etc.

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LordOfTheLight

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#124  Edited By LordOfTheLight

@shootingnova As I said in my earlier reply, Anakin's state in this fight isn't like that in a normal fight, he is quite enhanced, because of severe emotional reasons. And those emotional reasons are quite similar to Mace Windu's own.

But right now he doesn't have a choice: the man he flies to rescue is a closer friend than he'd ever hoped to have. That's what puts the edge in his voice when he tries to make a joke; that's what flattens his mouth and tightens the burn-scar high on his right cheek. The Supreme Chancellor has been family to Anakin: always there, always caring, always free with advice and unstinting aid. A sympathetic ear and a kindly, loving, unconditional acceptance of Anakin exactly as he is—the sort of acceptance Anakin could never get from another Jedi.

Not even from Obi-Wan.

He can tell Palpatine things he could never share with his Master.

He can tell Palpatine things he can't even tell Padme.

Now the Supreme Chancellor is in the worst kind of danger. And Anakin is on his way despite the dread boiling through his blood.

Credit: Revenge of the Sith

Clearly, this is quite personal for him, one which isn't the same as a normal bloodlust. This kind of situation is a one-off, and due to its highly personal nature, it has highly motivated him.

Obi-Wan slipped cautiously through the turbolift's door. Nothing shot at him. He beckoned. "I know this is difficult, Anakin. I know it's personal for you on many levels. You must take extra care to be mindful of your training here—and not only your combat training."

Heat rose in Anakin's cheeks. "I am not—" your Padawan anymore snarled inside his head, but that was adrenaline talking; hebit back the words and said instead, "—going to let you down, Master. Or Chancellor Palpatine."

Credit: Revenge of the Sith

In fact, even Obi Wan knows this, and even mentions to him as such.

Anakin saw in the Chancellor's face something he'd never dreamed he'd find there, and it squeezed breath from his lungs and wiped words from his brain.

Palpatine looked frightened.

Anakin didn't know what to say. He couldn't imagine what to say. All he could imagine was what Grievous and Dooku must have done to put fear on the face of this brave good man—

And that imagining ignited a sizzle in his blood that drew his face tight and clouded his heart and started again the low roll of thunder in his ears: thunder from Aargonar. From Jabiim.

Thunder from the Tusken camp.

....

Something unlocked in his chest. The thunder in his ears dissolved into red smoke that coiled at the base of his spine. His lightsaber found his hand, and his lips peeled off his teeth in a smile that a krayt dragon would have recognized.

Credit: Revenge of the Sith

Skywalker gave Dooku only his back, but his blade was already out and his tall, lean frame stood frozen with anticipation: so motionless he almost seemed to shiver. Pathetic. It was an insult to call this boy a Jedi at all.

....

Skywalker was a storm cloud, flickering with dangerous lightning, building the rotation that threatens a tornado.

....

The ship shuddered and the red smoke surged from Anakin's spine into his arms and legs and head and when Dooku gave the slightest glance of concern over his shoulder, distracted for half an instant, Anakin just couldn't wait anymore.

He sprang, lightsaber angled for the kill.

Credit: Revenge of the Sith

So, it is rather obvious, given by the context and quotes, that Anakin is quite enraged, and enhanced by his personal motivation. Agreed, that this isn't something ultra special, but it is noteworthy. Sidious even comments on this later on:

"Perhaps young Anakin was simply more... highly motivated,"

Credit: Revenge of the Sith

What is indeed special, is what happens later on:

A starburst of clarity blossoms within Anakin Skywalker's mind, when he says to himself Oh. I get it, now and discovers that the fear within his heart can be a weapon, too.

....

But for Anakin, in the fight there is only terror, and rage. Only he stands between death and the two men he loves best in all the world, and he can no longer afford to hold anything back.

....

But Palpatine's words rage is your weapon have given Anakin permission to unseal the shielding around his furnace heart, and all his fears and all his doubts shrivel in its flame.

Credit: Revenge of the Sith

So, he was well and truly, in another state entirely. In fact this is confirmed, by this:

The deck bucked as the cruiser absorbed a new barrage of torpedoes and turbolaser fire. Dooku's severed staring head bounced along the deck and rolled away, and Anakin woke up.

"What—?"

He'd been having a dream. He'd been flying, and fighting, and fighting again, and somehow, in the dream, he could do whatever he wanted. In the dream, whatever he did was the right thing to do simply because he wanted to do it. In the dream there were no rules, there was only power.

And the power was his.

Credit: Revenge of the Sith

While it is debatable that when exactly he enters this "dream" like state, the main point is the same. Anakin is factually enhanced, and to the level that he enters a state wherein the whole fight is like a "dream" to him. His emotions, have increased his fighting state to such a level that he is barely even conscious of what he did against Dooku. He notes that he simply "had" power in this state, and could do pretty much whatever he wanted. This IS tantamount to Zonakin, who has practically unlimited power. He notes, that he could do anything he liked, and he could do it simply because he wanted it. Due to the extremely unique circumstance, coupled with the words of Palpatine that sends him into the dream like state where apparently, all power is his, is the reason for Anakin's most impressive performance in this fight.

Now for the argument that Dooku was "completely overwhelmed", the biggest contribution there is the massive form advantage. Because this is what Dooku does to an Anakin who is substantially superior:

The play is still on; the comedy of lightsabers flashes and snaps and hisses. Dooku and Skywalker, a one-time-only command performance, for an audience of one. Jedi and Sith and Sith and Jedi, spinning, whirling, crashing together, slashing and chopping, parrying, binding, slipping and whipping and ripping the air around them with snarls of power.

....

The play goes on, but the suspense is over. It has become mere pantomime, as intricate and as meaningless as the space-time curves that guide galactic clusters through a measureless cosmos.

Credit: Revenge of the Sith

All that has changed here is that Anakin's victory has become certain. Even then, they still fight for quite some length of time. And even while this Dooku stalemates Anakin, telekinetically:

....slipping and whipping and ripping the air around them with snarls of power.

Credit: Revenge of the Sith

Dooku doing this to a hugely enhanced Anakin, should actually be the lynchpin in confirming that he was not being "completely overwhelmed" by the previous version of Anakin.

It is to be definitively noted however that Anakin in this state has access to basically whatever he wants to do. When he willed it( which co-incidentally is when Dooku's reserves were completely exhausted), is when he wins. While he telekinetically stalemates Anakin here, he did not "will" it( "will it" basically means Zonakin in his full glory). Again, note that against this enhanced state of Anakin, Dooku's newly replenished reserves would have drained much faster, and hence the quote I gave in my first reply here.

And let us note, that he would have again been quite exhausted while Anakin was beating him with Djem So, because he hadn't replenished his power, and we know that he was already tiring even when they were playing around. Add a vastly tired Tyranus, an Anakin, who is amped by Obi Wan's removal( the context should make that clear, along with their history) in addition to being hugely motivated, and by a unique circumstance( the protection of Palpatine himself, along with his venom for Dooku, along with his concern for Obi Wan etc.), the massive form advantage of Djem So, and it is really easy to see how it would appear like that.

And lastly, you have based the whole fight on Matthew Stover's novel. Fine, in the sense that it was approved by GL himself and I would give it high/top priority( hence why I based my counter on the same novel), but let us not forget that it is littered with hyperboles. For actual events it is perfectly THE canon, but in terms of proving character superiority without a comparison of feats, it falls flat, and because of that very defect( hyperboles). Also, none of the other examples have Anakin demonstrating such superiority over Dooku( the movie basically shows them as even).

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ShootingNova

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#125  Edited By ShootingNova

@lordofthelight: Actually, the comic also depicts Anakin driving Dooku from the starting area up the stairs in about the same time that Obi-Wan destroyed the battle droids. In a Legends context, I think it's fair to dismiss the finer points of the movies since they don't really depict characters in the same way (especially with regards to Yoda straining for some menial telekinetic tasks). So as far as Legends is concerned, Anakin winning handily would be supported by a majority of sources (since there's also Nick Gillard and so on).

In Canon, I agree that such a case would be tenuous.

I don't believe that Anakin feeling prepared or having a dream necessarily leads to him being more powerful, but he does note that the Force was stronger with him than usual in the novel as well, so your point has credence.

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@shootingnova

True the comics have shown Anakin pressing Dooku backwards, but their states of minds haven't been elucidated. Anyways, even the movie has the exact same thing. In the junior novel though, in it Anakin only gets the superiority after being goaded into the zone, at the behest of Palpatine, and was fighting at best, as a rough equal with Dooku before. I would give the main novel the higher priority of course, hence why I based my reply on it entirely. Else, Anakin may have demonstrated superiority, at the end of their fight( which is consistent with every source), but it isn't that high as in the main novel.

The whole crux of my second reply is that Dooku manages to fight an Anakin who has become quite enhanced( Sidious), for a decent length of time, and even stalemates him telekinetically, so the disadvantage he was at earlier( against an obviously inferior version of Anakin) can be chalked down to the huge advantage of Anakin's form.

I don't believe that Anakin feeling prepared or having a dream necessarily leads to him being more powerful

He himself said that "there was only power" and "the power was his" etc. in the dream, and that "there were no rules", or in other words, any kinds of limitations( this was after he took out Dooku, I posted the quote along with my interpretation of it). This sounds a lot like Zonakin. Thus he beat Dooku when he simply "willed" it( though as it was written, Dooku's reserves were exhausted at that point). He didn't have a dream, for him the whole fight( or maybe, after Sidious's intervention) was a dream like state, wherein his connection to the force was boosted highly, thus I said that it was an enhanced state. That apart from the fact that he was highly motivated even before the fight, since it was horribly personal for him.

Canon takes a whole new direction with Anakin. I though it best not to involve it in this thread, since all of your points are for Legends Anakin.

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ShootingNova

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@lordofthelight: Not at all. In the movies, Anakin was pushing the Count up the stairs before Obi-Wan got up and dismantled the droids. In the comics, Obi-Wan was fighting six battle droids from the start, which would've basically been blitz material, and in that time, Anakin had driven Dooku up the stairs already. A noticeable difference.

I'm not seeing where Anakin had a huge advantage with respects to form. Makashi lacked the ability to match Djem So in kinetic force, but that hardly indicates a specific, powerful form advantage.

Dooku's reserves weren't exhausted in the novel at that point, by the way. He had restored them after Anakin kicked him over the railing. I'll agree with your point that Anakin was in an unnaturally enhanced state, although he did grow in power again later anyways. And I agree with you about Canon.

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@shootingnova

Not at all. In the movies, Anakin was pushing the Count up the stairs before Obi-Wan got up and dismantled the droids. In the comics, Obi-Wan was fighting six battle droids from the start, which would've basically been blitz material, and in that time, Anakin had driven Dooku up the stairs already. A noticeable difference.

Ah yes, you are correct. My mistake.

Still, the point about the junior novel stands though.

I'm not seeing where Anakin had a huge advantage with respects to form. Makashi lacked the ability to match Djem So in kinetic force, but that hardly indicates a specific, powerful form advantage.

Well, if he can do Tk exchanges with a version of Anakin who is more powerful than an already highly enhanced Anakin, then it shouldn't make that much sense that he was getting beaten all over by Anakin's relatively weaker iteration, in sabers no less. He contested with Zonakin in lightsabers for a decent length of time too. And it isn't only form advantage, Dooku getting tired also has a substantial role to play, as that would make him even more vulnerable to Djem So. And yes, he replenished his reserves, but that was just before facing Zonakin.

Dooku's reserves weren't exhausted in the novel at that point, by the way. He had restored them after Anakin kicked him over the railing.

Actually, by the time Zonakin is nearly done with him, his reserves have been exhausted fully. It is stated outright in the fight.

I'll agree with your point that Anakin was in an unnaturally enhanced state,

Fair enough. How do you think a perfectly normal ROTS Anakin, without either the motivation of the circumstances of the fight, or the motivation from Sidious, would fare against him?

although he did grow in power again later anyways.

That would be Knightfall Vader.

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@shootingnova: Found another quote that shows Anakin's superiority over Obi-Wan:

"He had been a superior fighter even when he had been Anakin Skywalker, and yet Obi-Wan had defeated him." - Death Star

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#131  Edited By ShootingNova

@yousufkhan1212: That's Vader's perspective, but yeah, I may backflip on my earlier decision to not include it. I did include the one where he was reportedly a better fighter than Obi-Wan, after all.

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@yousufkhan1212: That's Vader's perspective, but yeah, I may backflip on my earlier decision to not include it. I did include the one where he was reportedly a better fighter than Obi-Wan, after all.

Yeah, Vader's perspective wasn't inaccurate. And in that extract it was talking about one of his worries.

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ViperSixteen

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Got some feats, GIFS are now working.

TCW S1 Anakin Force pushes Ahsoka Tano, Aayala Secura and 3 Clone Troopers:

No Caption Provided

TCW S1 Anakin briefly holds back an fiery explosion:

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TCW S1 Anakin lifting a massive boulder:

No Caption Provided

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ShootingNova

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@lordofthelight: Sorry, I forgot about this.

Well, if he can do Tk exchanges with a version of Anakin who is more powerful than an already highly enhanced Anakin, then it shouldn't make that much sense that he was getting beaten all over by Anakin's relatively weaker iteration, in sabers no less. He contested with Zonakin in lightsabers for a decent length of time too. And it isn't only form advantage, Dooku getting tired also has a substantial role to play, as that would make him even more vulnerable to Djem So.

Dooku replenished himself before Anakin became enraged. The exhaustion that followed was entirely to Anakin's credit.

Your "snarls of power" quote seems to refer to lightsaber blades as opposed to telekinesis.

And yes, he replenished his reserves, but that was just before facing Zonakin.

Actually, by the time Zonakin is nearly done with him, his reserves have been exhausted fully. It is stated outright in the fight.

Which is why it's Zonakin who exhausted Dooku, and nobody else.

Fair enough. How do you think a perfectly normal ROTS Anakin, without either the motivation of the circumstances of the fight, or the motivation from Sidious, would fare against him?

Probably about even in Legends. They're both tier 8's generally, and the film puts them on a relatively even footing before Anakin gets enraged (at which point he becomes tier 9). The junior novel also has Anakin and Dooku being dead even until Anakin calls upon his rage.

In Canon, though, Anakin has the edge. They were already even in Dark Disciple, which takes place before RotS. Anakin would've improved to surpass the Count, although not by much (DD and RotS take place within a few months of each other).

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WollfMyth209

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#135  Edited By WollfMyth209

@shootingnova: Here's something you might like to add. According to Drake Lo'gaan, Anakin has a much better chance at beating Grievous than Kenobi:

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ShootingNova

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@wollfmyth209: He thinks Anakin's the only one who can do it (ergo, Anakin > Mace, Yoda, Obi-Wan and all other Jedi). Extremely good accolade, but unreliable.

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@shootingnova: I mean, Drake served alongside several Jedi Masters and has seen first-hand what GG is capable of... Definitely not gospel, but decent, I'd argue.

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@wollfmyth209: Well, it certainly cements the idea that Anakin is known by reputation to be the strongest Jedi.

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#139  Edited By WollfMyth209
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WollfMyth209

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@shootingnova: Another decent feat. The trioplegic amputee Anakin, that's simultaneously being burned alive reaches out with his damaged robotic hand and inadvertantly crushes the rock of the lava bank:

Anakin dropped his lightsaber, clawing at the edge of the cliff with his mechanical hand, but his grip was too powerful for the lava bank and it crumbled, and he slid down onto the black sand.

RotS novel

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Azronger

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#141  Edited By Azronger

@wollfmyth209: Not an expert on geology but isn't volcanic rock really fragile? I mean, I easily crushed it when I was on vacation, travelling to a volcano a couple of years back.

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WollfMyth209

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@azronger: Depends. Some rocks are fragile, others are tougher.

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@azronger said:

@wollfmyth209: Not an expert on geology but isn't volcanic rock really fragile? I mean, I easily crushed it when I was on vacation, travelling to a volcano a couple of years back.

I think it depends on how molten it is.

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#146  Edited By ShootingNova

@kbroskywalker: "Overpowering the Force"? LOL. The episode has Obi-Wan outright telling Anakin to use the Force, not overpower it (I have no idea how that's supposed to be possible anyway).

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@kbroskywalker: "Overpowering the Force"? LOL. The episode has Obi-Wan outright telling Anakin to use the Force, not overpower it (I have no idea how that's supposed to be possible anyway).

The force could be referring to the son/daughter(living embodiment of the two sides of the force).

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ShootingNova

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@kbroskywalker: Completely ridiculous statement all the same. Anakin is using the Force... to overpower the Force.

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#149  Edited By kbroskywalker

@kbroskywalker: Completely ridiculous statement all the same. Anakin is using the Force... to overpower the Force.

"it rhymes, like poetry"

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@kbroskywalker: Tragically, it doesn't compare to any instance in older works, lol.