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Posted by CyberpunkCop (2840 posts) 3 months, 19 days ago

Poll: The battle of Metropolis (Man of Steel) vs the battle of Titan (Infinity War) (76 votes)

Metropolis battle 34%
Titan battle 64%
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#1 Posted by mrmonster (14675 posts) - - Show Bio

That's tough. I'll say the Metropolis battle due to how visually stunning it was, but a solid case could be made for either.

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#2 Posted by Chimeroid (9234 posts) - - Show Bio

It is a really close call IMHO. But, i have to go with Titan. For all the flaws, it was incredibly creative. And i simply have to value the creativity in this case.

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#3 Posted by Epicyon (866 posts) - - Show Bio

Titan stomps

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#4 Posted by MAZAHS117 (12335 posts) - - Show Bio

Could go either way with. I remember watching the Strange/Thanos duel in the theater for the first time thinking “This is so ill” .. and Zod vs Superman legit had me on the edge of my seat. I’m gonna go MoS as I feel like there’s this dramatic weight to that fight, maybe it was the music score or how it was filmed but it just feels epic in scope. No slight on the IW Titan fight at all those, as it was incredibly well done

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#5 Posted by RukelnikovFTW (6131 posts) - - Show Bio

Both are very good, but Strange vs Thanos tips the scale

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#6 Posted by Ready_4_Madness (15388 posts) - - Show Bio

Metropolis on all levels.

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#7 Posted by godzilla44 (7181 posts) - - Show Bio

Metropolis battle was comics action finally put on the big screen and set the standard for high tier battles on screen. So far nothing I've seen has come close too it yet.

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#8 Posted by ThunderPrince (6928 posts) - - Show Bio

Both are very good, but Strange vs Thanos tips the scale

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#9 Posted by g2_ (11292 posts) - - Show Bio

Both are very good, but Strange vs Thanos tips the scale

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#10 Posted by rem (2526 posts) - - Show Bio

Both were great but I’ll go with the Titan battle.

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#11 Posted by samhmd1 (712 posts) - - Show Bio

Titan fight, more feeling behind it compared to MOS' destruction porn.

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#12 Posted by darthvaderrocks (1074 posts) - - Show Bio

Why do people like the Superman vs Zod fight again? There is zero apathy, can't tell who's winning since none of them are getting hurt, mindless destruction porn, and just a dull fight.

Meanwhile the Titan fight does have apathy, is visually superior, way more creative, more fun, but you also have great acting and you learn even more about Thanos and he's doing what he does. And it also plays a big part in the films overall theme which is sacrifice.

The Zod vs Superman fight has none of those things.

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#13 Posted by Aquatic_Pianist (685 posts) - - Show Bio

Imma just leave this here.

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That being said, Titan was much, much, much better.

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#14 Posted by Lone_Wolf_and_Cub (9006 posts) - - Show Bio

Titan in a stomp.

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#15 Edited by adamTRMM (8989 posts) - - Show Bio

Imma just leave this here.

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That being said, Titan was much, much, much better.

Does this asinine analysis that says "DC action is weightless" and then shows a sonic boom supposed to prove something?

How about Thanos without any Gem stomping Hulk and then not being able to take out Spiderman with 4? How idiotic is that?

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#16 Posted by adamTRMM (8989 posts) - - Show Bio

Why do people like the Superman vs Zod fight again? There is zero apathy, can't tell who's winning since none of them are getting hurt, mindless destruction porn, and just a dull fight.

Meanwhile the Titan fight does have apathy, is visually superior, way more creative, more fun, but you also have great acting and you learn even more about Thanos and he's doing what he does. And it also plays a big part in the films overall theme which is sacrifice.

The Zod vs Superman fight has none of those things.

No Caption Provided

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#17 Posted by SaintWildcard (21710 posts) - - Show Bio

Imma just leave this here.

Loading Video...

That being said, Titan was much, much, much better.

I recall a video of his where he praises certain action moments in Nice Guys (great movie), and says that those moments in action mean something while they didn't in MoS, which was horseshit if I ever saw it. The Metropolis battle had many layers and was supposed to show how a fight between two gods would actually look like, and that's not counting the thematic reasoning for the fight.

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#18 Posted by WhyZoSerious (1678 posts) - - Show Bio

Is this poll for real? Are these 35 percents for real?

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#19 Edited by SaintWildcard (21710 posts) - - Show Bio

@darthvaderrocks said:

Why do people like the Superman vs Zod fight again? There is zero apathy, can't tell who's winning since none of them are getting hurt, mindless destruction porn, and just a dull fight.

Meanwhile the Titan fight does have apathy, is visually superior, way more creative, more fun, but you also have great acting and you learn even more about Thanos and he's doing what he does. And it also plays a big part in the films overall theme which is sacrifice.

The Zod vs Superman fight has none of those things.

I'm one of those people that argue that Zod is a much better villain than Thanos because while both are out doing what they think is right, Zod at least comes from it from a fresh new angle of being a character who was created with a purpose, lost his purpose and then died because he failed to adapt and CLark could. It leans into the Sci Fi nature of the characters. Only thing Thanos has that was better than Zod was emotional range, but IMO Zod was supposed to be a cold since his entire people were like that. When he did show emotion it felt more important since it wasn't the norm for his kind. He showed anger when he ran out of options and was in total dispair but only let one tear out when he lost his purpose.

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#20 Edited by Lan_Fan (12683 posts) - - Show Bio

Metropolis battle was comics action finally put on the big screen and set the standard for high tier battles on screen. So far nothing I've seen has come close too it yet.

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#21 Posted by darthvaderrocks (1074 posts) - - Show Bio

@adamtrmm: Apathy - lack of interest, enthusiasm, or concern.

I hope you don't think that's some word nobody knows about...

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#22 Edited by darthvaderrocks (1074 posts) - - Show Bio

@saintwildcard: "Zod at least comes from it from a fresh new angle of being a character who was created with a purpose, lost his purpose and then died because he failed to adapt and CLark could."

A character being created for a purpose isn't something fresh. These concepts are not as original as some of y'all think they are.

"Only thing Thanos has that was better than Zod was emotional range, but IMO Zod was supposed to be a cold since his entire people were like that."

Thanos is a much better villain than Zod for other reasons as well.

1. Thanos simply has a on screen impact that Zod simply doesn't have. When Thanos is on screen you are always focused on Thanos. It's like Vader but Thanos is a better villain than Vader anyway.

2. Thanos is better written. Thanos role as the misguided, abusive parent is simply better than anything Zod was meant to be. Thanos actually has complex relationships with other people in the film. Zod didn't really have a relationship with anyone in the film. And genuine emotions and "human like" reactions to things that transpired in IW and Thanos reacted to those things simply help flesh out Thanos more as a character. Zod's scene right before the fight should have been Zod from the start. Thanos was showing he wasn't just some villain who lacked any form of emotion. That works for villain sociopaths but I don't think Zod is a sociopath nor was he intended to be one.

3. Thanos actually has an arc. Thanos goes from someone who enjoys killing, going on this plan of his end to someone who looks almost depressed. Thanos is pretty much only still going along with his plan because it's his destiny and whatnot. Doing his plan because it's fun went away when Gamora dies. It's rare for villains to have a arc on any level but when they do it instantly makes them better than before. Thanos is still evil but how it's presented and how he presents his evil actions to us after Vormir are completely different. He changes on an emotional level.

4. Brolin simply did a better job as Thanos than Shannon as Zod. No other way to put it really.

"When he did show emotion it felt more important since it wasn't the norm for his kind."

And you saying Thanos is crying every day lol? Zod got sad he lost, Thanos got sad because he won but lost someone. It's simply more tragic when you get what you want but also lose everything in the process. It's why that "Everything" line is so damn important for Thanos going forward.

Anyway I simply scratched the surface talking about Thanos and didn't get in more depth as I wanted. But yeah, Thanos is a better villain than Zod in a lost of themes. Haven't even talked about how much more important he is to his universe than Zod was to DCEU, or how when Thanos has to come to the realization that he's wrong in A4. Thanos can only get better the more we see of him.

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#23 Posted by adamTRMM (8989 posts) - - Show Bio
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#24 Posted by war of light_2814 (2694 posts) - - Show Bio

Metropolis, I enjoy destruction porn.

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#25 Posted by SaintWildcard (21710 posts) - - Show Bio

A character being created for a purpose isn't something fresh. These concepts are not as original as some of y'all think they are.

My point is that the movie took a villain that thinks they are doing the right thing and flipped it. In the context of the movie, the whole theme was about the concept of growth and choice. Krypton's history showed that they lost that ability and Clark who was raised on Earth gained it. it was a giant philosophical discussion on that and things like eugenics. But yeah, as it stand I would argue the way Zod was created in the movie is something relatively new, or at least fresher than Thanos

1. Thanos simply has a on screen impact that Zod simply doesn't have. When Thanos is on screen you are always focused on Thanos. It's like Vader but Thanos is a better villain than Vader anyway.

4. Brolin simply did a better job as Thanos than Shannon as Zod. No other way to put it really.

Neither of these are arguments, and both of these are saying the exact same thing. It boils down to "I like him more". Good for you

Thanos is better written. Thanos role as the misguided, abusive parent is simply better than anything Zod was meant to be.

And Zod is a character out of a Greek Tragedy. In that his actions, the way he was created lead to his eventual downfall because he is a product of Krypton and Krypton was doomed to fail.

Thanos actually has complex relationships with other people in the film.Zod didn't really have a relationship with anyone in the film.

He had a relationship with Jor-El, the one man he respected is also a man that he killed and regrets to on some level. Their relation was that of a philosophical debate about what was best for krypton.

It's rare for villains to have a arc on any level but when they do it instantly makes them better than before

While I agree that giving an arc to a villain is a good thing, Zod to me is closer to that of someone like the Joker. Joker didn't need an arc to be a good villain. You see, it's what both of them represent to the overall themes of the movie and what moral challenges they bring to their hero and the growth them they send them on that make them great villains. Zod was symbiotic to Clark's journey and growth. Clark's task on Earth was to be the bridge between Krypton and Humanity, the last hope Krypton had of being reborn. But the tragedy being that Jor-El's "freedom of choice" meant Clark had to choose to side entirely with Earth because Zod represented a risk that Clark couldn't take.

And you saying Thanos is crying every day lol? Zod got sad he lost, Thanos got sad because he won but lost someone. It's simply more tragic when you get what you want but also lose everything in the process. It's why that "Everything" line is so damn important for Thanos going forward.

I do like how Part 2 is trying to sell me on the fact that Thanos showed a ton of emotion, but then in part 3 you try and act like him showing emotion is rarer than Zod. You can't have it both ways.

I never said that he was crying all the time either, but he made jokes, played with people and had hear to hearts with Gamora. My point, and yours apparently, is that Thanos had the ability to show emotion, but Zod comes from a race that was cold and he was bread to be a warrior who can commit genocide easily. I mean, Zod even thought the notion of Sex was blasphemy because that's how he was made.

Anyway I simply scratched the surface talking about Thanos and didn't get in more depth as I wanted. But yeah, Thanos is a better villain than Zod in a lost of themes.

Actually, you never listed any themes within the movie. You sorta broke down aspects of his character, but those aren't themes.

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#26 Edited by darthvaderrocks (1074 posts) - - Show Bio

@saintwildcard: "My point is that the movie took a villain that thinks they are doing the right thing and flipped it."

They didn't flip it. He believed he was right and he never changed his belief. He just got mad that he couldn't do what he wanted. So no, that's not flipping anything. He never gets challengd on his belief either aside from fight scenes.

"Neither of these are arguments, and both of these are saying the exact same thing. It boils down to "I like him more". Good for you"

Um, duh?

"And Zod is a character out of a Greek Tragedy."

Why do you people say that? I mean, that doesn't make it good. Do you say it because it sounds cool?

"In that his actions, the way he was created lead to his eventual downfall because he is a product of Krypton and Krypton was doomed to fail."

That doesn't change what I said.

"He had a relationship with Jor-El, the one man he respected is also a man that he killed and regrets to on some level."

He never regretted killing Jor-El. He hated Jor-El for what he did it's why he wanted to kill Kal-El. It's also a little bit on why he wanted to make Earth Krypton.

But anyway, that's hardly an interesting or even complex relationship. Last roughly 4 minutes if you combine their non fighting scenes together. Too short.

"Zod to me is closer to that of someone like the Joker. Joker didn't need an arc to be a good villain."

Problem is if your villain doesn't have arc they must change the hero. Joker changed Batman, Zod didn't change Superman. His death literally did not matter nor did any of the things he said. General Zod in Superman 2 changed Superman. Zod in MOS did not. MOS falls flat on that. IW gave Thanos an arc and will also probably change the heroes in part 2.

"I do like how Part 2 is trying to sell me on the fact that Thanos showed a ton of emotion, but then in part 3 you try and act like him showing emotion is rarer than Zod. You can't have it both ways."

Not really. Thanos emotions were grief and sadness throughout IW's 3rd act (1 hour). But it's not like he does deal with those things that often.

"I never said that he was crying all the time either, but he made jokes, played with people and had hear to hearts with Gamora."

Thanos never made a joke and his "playing with people" revolved around manipulation and torture. Things he flat out stopped doing after Vormir.

"My point, and yours apparently, is that Thanos had the ability to show emotion, but Zod comes from a race that was cold and he was bread to be a warrior who can commit genocide easily."

That's to Zod's downfall as a character. And Thanos commits genocide just as easily and even moreso. Difference is he has actual emotions when dealing with certain people.

"Actually, you never listed any themes within the movie. You sorta broke down aspects of his character, but those aren't themes."

Meant to say "ways"

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#27 Posted by godzilla44 (7181 posts) - - Show Bio

1. Thanos simply has a on screen impact that Zod simply doesn't have. When Thanos is on screen you are always focused on Thanos. It's like Vader but Thanos is a better villain than Vader anyway.

Yeah you lost me right there. Also you should change your username.

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#28 Posted by darthvaderrocks (1074 posts) - - Show Bio

@godzilla44: I like Vader a lot but don't be silly. Vader was an archetype, barely even a character. He was a very good archetype, but that's about it.

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#29 Posted by godzilla44 (7181 posts) - - Show Bio

@godzilla44: I like Vader a lot but don't be silly. Vader was an archetype, barely even a character. He was a very good archetype, but that's about it.

You want actual villain that has an arc Vader is him unlike Thanos.

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#30 Posted by darthvaderrocks (1074 posts) - - Show Bio

@godzilla44: Vader doesn't have an arc or at least one that is good.

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#31 Posted by godzilla44 (7181 posts) - - Show Bio

@godzilla44: Vader doesn't have an arc or at least one that is good.

I honestly don't know if you're trolling or not?

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#32 Posted by darthvaderrocks (1074 posts) - - Show Bio

@godzilla44: You gonna try to prove me wrong or gonna keep assuming stuff?

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#33 Posted by Archangel01 (1412 posts) - - Show Bio

battle of metropolis off course, this is how you portray a high tier fight

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#34 Edited by godzilla44 (7181 posts) - - Show Bio

@godzilla44: You gonna try to prove me wrong or gonna keep assuming stuff?

Look we are way off topic here, so we can end it here if you want. I don't want to waste my time arguing with a troll.

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#35 Posted by darthvaderrocks (1074 posts) - - Show Bio

@godzilla44: You made it "off topic".

Again, you gonna prove me wrong?

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#36 Posted by SaintWildcard (21710 posts) - - Show Bio

They didn't flip it. He believed he was right and he never changed his belief. He just got mad that he couldn't do what he wanted. So no, that's not flipping anything. He never gets challengd on his belief either aside from fight scenes.

Um, duh?

You're ignorning the entire core of his character and the theme of the movie to make this point. He got mad because how he was programmed was with the idea that he was the best at what he was made to do. He wanted to save his people but the way he went about it would have ended the same for them. My point is, that it took a character who thought he was right and couldn't be changed and made that integral to the movie. Most movies just make the bad guys like that, like Thanos, and that's it. Zod had a reason for why he is the way he is and all culminates into his final moments.

What do you mean duh? Try to be objective and present a good argument. Half of your list was just an opinion and not an actually breakdown of the character while those same two points were identical in nature. Don't "a duh" me, and try to act as if that was the point cus if it was it's a dumb one.

Why do you people say that? I mean, that doesn't make it good. Do you say it because it sounds cool?

Self fulfilling prophesies are cool and epic ways to tell a story. Also, I've never seen anyone around here call Zod's character that besides me. I say it cus it's true. My point in calling it that is that it makes Zod's character tragic.

He never regretted killing Jor-El. He hated Jor-El for what he did it's why he wanted to kill Kal-El. It's also a little bit on why he wanted to make Earth Krypton.

But anyway, that's hardly an interesting or even complex relationship. Last roughly 4 minutes if you combine their non fighting scenes together. Too short.

Yes he did cus he told Clark as much that he admired him. He was the one person on Krypton he trusted because he knew of the impending fate of Krypton and both wanted to save it. But either way what makes their realtionship interesting is more how it plays into the themes of the movies. Each taking a side of what they believe is the way to save Krypton. It is complex because it literally plays into the central thesis of the movie which is about this advance society lacking the ability to grow because they were so advance they didn't feel like they needed to.

Problem is if your villain doesn't have arc they must change the hero. Joker changed Batman, Zod didn't change Superman. His death literally did not matter nor did any of the things he said. General Zod in Superman 2 changed Superman. Zod in MOS did not. MOS falls flat on that. IW gave Thanos an arc and will also probably change the heroes in part 2.

I'm not here to defend BvS or the actions they failed to take. MoS did have an arc because it was about Superman who wanted some direction got some, but both failed and proved his father right. Clark at the end not only failed cus Zod got what he wanted, a warriors death, but he failed to be the bridge his father wanted him to be. It also pushed Superman into the lime light, and that was the set up for future movies.

Not really. Thanos emotions were grief and sadness throughout IW's 3rd act (1 hour). But it's not like he does deal with those things that often.

Yes really, you're two points contradicted each other and you tried to have it both ways. Even so, he showed way more emotion than Zod, which isn't a bad thing but Zod was a character whose emotions only cracked a few times because that's how his people were.

Thanos never made a joke and his "playing with people" revolved around manipulation and torture. Things he flat out stopped doing after Vormir.

That doesn't change the fact that, as sadistic as it may have been, is still playing around with people in his own way. He enjoyed what he did. It was his style of humor, which is something Kryptonians lacked because of how rigid they became

That's to Zod's downfall as a character. And Thanos commits genocide just as easily and even moreso. Difference is he has actual emotions when dealing with certain people.

Except it's not. I never claimed that Zod showed more emotion than Thanos, in fact that was the one bonus I gave to Thanos but I stated that Zod lacking this emotional range served a point and when he did crack it mattered because it was not the norm. It's like how when a robot learns to love, it's out of the norm and people get all emotional when that shit happens. Again here you are trying to give Thanos points for emotion but then downplay it in other statements.

"Actually, you never listed any themes within the movie. You sorta broke down aspects of his character, but those aren't themes."

Meant to say "ways"

Okay, well then you're wrong. Thanos has like one family member that makes him different than Zod, well that and that he's sadistic. Zod on the other hand plays into the themes of the movie in multiple ways both in world building and in conflict to Clark's mission. It's that Sci-Fi flip that makes Zod better since it's taking the villain who thinks he's doing something right from a different angle that's steeped in a philosophical/societal discussion. Nothing about Thanos's plan was different or new

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#37 Posted by godzilla44 (7181 posts) - - Show Bio

@godzilla44: You made it "off topic".

Again, you gonna prove me wrong?

Quick summery Vader arc "The chosen one greatest clone wars hero, loses his wife and believes his children died also. Turns evil becomes the most feared man in the Galaxy, finds his son tries to convince his son to join him, Luke refuses and tries to convince him he's still a good person. Finally, while watching his son brutalised by his master realizes he can be the hero and save his son's life and dies the hero he used to be (Why we see Anakan as the force ghost).

Now let's see Thanos's amazing arc.

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#38 Posted by darthvaderrocks (1074 posts) - - Show Bio

@saintwildcard: "My point is, that it took a character who thought he was right and couldn't be changed and made that integral to the movie."

Again, this is not something that is new. Trying to make it a new concept just isn't gonna work.

"Most movies just make the bad guys like that, like Thanos, and that's it. Zod had a reason for why he is the way he is and all culminates into his final moments."

And Thanos doesn't? Did you just skip over the opening of Titan?

"What do you mean duh? Try to be objective and present a good argument."

No such thing as objective when it comes to film. When are you people gonna understand that? Everything in film is subjective. There's no right or wrong answer unless it's a flat out lie.

"Self fulfilling prophesies are cool and epic ways to tell a story."

These things you keep mentioning can be applied to Thanos, you know this right?

"Also, I've never seen anyone around here call Zod's character that besides me."

No, not just for Zod but for any character that's "out of a Greek tragedy". That phrase is thrown out way too much in film discussions as if it even means anything.

"Yes he did cus he told Clark as much that he admired him."

Admiring doesn't mean regret.

"But either way what makes their realtionship interesting is more how it plays into the themes of the movies."

Again too short. 4 minutes in total.

"I'm not here to defend BvS or the actions they failed to take"

Not even talking about BVS.

"MoS did have an arc because it was about Superman who wanted some direction got some, but both failed and proved his father right."

Proving a point (unintentionally) isn't an arc. But anyway Superman did not change by Zod's words or actions. Doesn't even reflect on them. Just fights him because he has to. Doesn't change his viewpoint at all.

"Yes really, you're two points contradicted each other and you tried to have it both ways."

Again not really.

"but Zod was a character whose emotions only cracked a few times because that's how his people were."

That doesn't make it good. How can I be interested by something that's devoid of any empathy or human like emotions for 98% of their screen time?

"It was his style of humor"

He doesn't find it humorous. He gets off on it (kinda like Dexter) but he never once finds it funny. Fun and humorous aren't the same thing.

"I never claimed that Zod showed more emotion than Thanos"

When did I say you did?

"I stated that Zod lacking this emotional range served a point and when he did crack it mattered because it was not the norm. It's like how when a robot learns to love, it's out of the norm and people get all emotional when that shit happens."

Doesn't really matter. He went right back to the cold ruthless Zod that he was in the for all his other scenes. So in a way it feels irrelevant since it doesn't mean anything because it doesn't last.

"Again here you are trying to give Thanos points for emotion but then downplay it in other statements."

When?

"Thanos has like one family member that makes him different than Zod, well that and that he's sadistic."

Thanos is never sadistic with Gamora at least not intentionally. Thanos doesn't know he's evil at the end of the day.

"Zod on the other hand plays into the themes of the movie in multiple ways both in world building and in conflict to Clark's mission."

And Thanos doesn't? He's directly responsible for the IW's two biggest themes which are sacrifice and love. Not to mention the misguided parent thing. Also the "daddy of the universe" theme that's been in the MCU since phase 3.

"It's that Sci-Fi flip that makes Zod better since it's taking the villain who thinks he's doing something right from a different angle that's steeped in a philosophical/societal discussion."

Not anymore philosophical than Thanos and his plan.

"Nothing about Thanos's plan was different or new"

Well duh. Villains who kill others to save others has been a trope before Thanos was even created. All about execution on these iconic tropes.

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#39 Posted by darthvaderrocks (1074 posts) - - Show Bio

@godzilla44: Ooh yes. My favorite argument where people like to pretend Vader and Anakin are the same characters.

Anyway, Vader's arc falls flat and never feels earned considering we don't know why he ever did save Luke besides weird reasons.

Luke said, "There's conflict in you I can feel it" yet we never see that. Vader shows no signs of showing conflict. He does everything he's told without hesitation. It isn't until Sidious tortures him until we see conflict but why? You have no problems cutting off your son's hand but him saying a few words and seeing someone else hurt him makes you turn all of a sudden? We only see the conflict when the plot needed it. It was never natural nor does it feel earned. And considering Lucas ruined Vader by showing his birth when the less we knew about him the better (in a way) it makes Vader even worse.

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#40 Posted by KingLouie (2985 posts) - - Show Bio

This isn't close at all.

No DC battle is close to Titan

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#41 Edited by SaintWildcard (21710 posts) - - Show Bio

@darthvaderrocks said:

@saintwildcard: "My point is, that it took a character who thought he was right and couldn't be changed and made that integral to the movie."

Again, this is not something that is new. Trying to make it a new concept just isn't gonna work.

The way it was tackled was new at the very least uncommon. Which is that the way Zod is played a role into the themes of the movie. Thanos didn't have that

And Thanos doesn't? Did you just skip over the opening of Titan?

His origin is the typical "tragedy". His people died and he felt like he was right and therefore informing his character. Zod is a new spin on that type of character

No such thing as objective when it comes to film. When are you people gonna understand that? Everything in film is subjective. There's no right or wrong answer unless it's a flat out lie.

You can list attributes of the movie in a factual manner, Sure at some point it comes down to personal preference, but you can't act like you listed a ton of shit when half the points on your list were just you stating a preference.

These things you keep mentioning can be applied to Thanos, you know this right?

Not at all. Thanos is literally the opposite to Zod. Thanos is a character who comes from a world that didn't listen to him and he's taking actions that are extremely different to what his planet did. You must not like Thanos as much as you think if you don't remember that. He'll failure will have nothing to do with how Titan failed, while Zod's is directly tied to Krypton.

No, not just for Zod but for any character that's "out of a Greek tragedy". That phrase is thrown out way too much in film discussions as if it even means anything.

Can't say I've ever seen it, so whatever. For me, I'm just using it cus it takes the self fulfilling aspect of a Greek Tragedy and ends in death like on. A character who fights against his destiny but fails to do it is tragic as hell

Admiring doesn't mean regret.

It does to an extent. I'm sure he would rather have had him on his side, than not. It's not him crying about it, since again he doesn't cry unless it's extreme

"But either way what makes their realtionship interesting is more how it plays into the themes of the movies."

Again too short. 4 minutes in total,

But it's central to the entire movie.

Not even talking about BVS.

Oh, well then you're wrong here. I do think that Clark could have shown more remorse in the closing moments, but he did feel terrible for having killed the last of his race. And him taking Zod's life was the ultimate declaration that he chose Earth.

"MoS did have an arc because it was about Superman who wanted some direction got some, but both failed and proved his father right."

Proving a point (unintentionally) isn't an arc. But anyway Superman did not change by Zod's words or actions. Doesn't even reflect on them. Just fights him because he has to. Doesn't change his viewpoint at all.

There isn't anything unintentional about CLark's arc, you're literally arguing against the central theme of the movie which is choice. Yes he did, because he was a character who was told what to do by both his dads and ultimately he had to make his own choice. He turned his back on Krypton.

Again not really.

Again, really, and you do it later as well.

That doesn't make it good. How can I be interested by something that's devoid of any empathy or human like emotions for 98% of their screen time?

I'm not here to make you feel anything, I'm just here to state the relevance to the story as a whole. You can either debunk it or accept it, what you feel means nothing to me.

He doesn't find it humorous. He gets off on it (kinda like Dexter) but he never once finds it funny. Fun and humorous aren't the same thing.

This part of the discussion has warped from where it started of. Point is he was having fun, which wasn't a quality of Zod.

When did I say you did?

This statement implies it "Difference is he has actual emotions when dealing with certain people.". You may have forgotten what my original point was so I clarified that it was never my argument that Zod showed more emotion because you list it as if I didn't know. I state from the get go that Thanos showed more emotinal range, but I say why the lack of it works for Zod.

Doesn't really matter. He went right back to the cold ruthless Zod that he was in the for all his other scenes. So in a way it feels irrelevant since it doesn't mean anything because it doesn't last.

But that's the point! I state that it's meant to be moments where it cracks but he was raised in such a way that he's not supposed to and as Shannon stated in interviews "Zod is a general, he is supposed to be strong for his people". And to some extent the final fight was him letting his emotions get the better of him and wanting to either avenge his people or die a hero in his own mind.

When?

ugh, here's the time you try and say his showings of emotions were rarer or better

And you saying Thanos is crying every day lol? Zod got sad he lost, Thanos got sad because he won but lost someone.

Here's where you say he shows it a lot

Thanos was showing he wasn't just some villain who lacked any form of emotion.

The phrasing of each is trying to take credit in two sections.

Thanos is never sadistic with Gamora at least not intentionally. Thanos doesn't know he's evil at the end of the day.

I didn't mean that he was sadistic towards her, just that unlike Zod he was sadistic. Because like you state he got off on hurting people.

And Thanos doesn't? He's directly responsible for the IW's two biggest themes which are sacrifice and love. Not to mention the misguided parent thing. Also the "daddy of the universe" theme that's been in the MCU since phase 3.

I don't think you understand what a theme is. Here's the definition

the main subject that is being discussed or described in a piece of writing, a movie, etc.

Love and misguided parent are not themes in Infinity War. They are rather just aspects of Thanos's character. I would stretch to say sacrifice isn't a theme either. I would say Zod is a Kryptonian Patriot, but I wouldn't say a theme in the movie is patriotism.

Not anymore philosophical than Thanos and his plan.

More honestly. But do tell me what is philosophical about his plan?

Well duh. Villains who kill others to save others has been a trope before Thanos was even created. All about execution on these iconic tropes.

But that's not my point. My point is that the villain who thinks they are doing the right thing was tackled in a new way with Zod. And you've yet to really argue against this point, you mainly just dumb down what is being said and ignore the point of the movie.

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#42 Posted by godzilla44 (7181 posts) - - Show Bio

@godzilla44: Ooh yes. My favorite argument where people like to pretend Vader and Anakin are the same characters.

Anyway, Vader's arc falls flat and never feels earned considering we don't know why he ever did save Luke besides weird reasons.

Luke said, "There's conflict in you I can feel it" yet we never see that. Vader shows no signs of showing conflict. He does everything he's told without hesitation. It isn't until Sidious tortures him until we see conflict but why? You have no problems cutting off your son's hand but him saying a few words and seeing someone else hurt him makes you turn all of a sudden? We only see the conflict when the plot needed it. It was never natural nor does it feel earned. And considering Lucas ruined Vader by showing his birth when the less we knew about him the better (in a way) it makes Vader even worse.

Everything you stated is opinion based, nothing you can argue with. I gave you Vader's arc, where's Thanos?? Oh yeah he doesn't have one, just because he cries when he kills his daughter, doesn't make a great villain

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#43 Edited by Alavanka (2416 posts) - - Show Bio

Titan.

Justice League is just one long fight scene, one that started getting boring after Faora was beaten by Supes.

The best way to enjoy Battle of Metropolis is literally just to only watch Superman vs Zod as a standalone youtube video.

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#44 Posted by darthvaderrocks (1074 posts) - - Show Bio

@saintwildcard: "The way it was tackled was new at the very least uncommon. Which is that the way Zod is played a role into the themes of the movie. Thanos didn't have that"

This is a blatant lie.

"His origin is the typical "tragedy". His people died and he felt like he was right and therefore informing his character. Zod is a new spin on that type of character"

I mean no, not really. It's not a group of people like family members but simply an entire world. He thought he could save them but he simply didn't when they told him he was wrong in thinking that he could. So they died and Thanos lives with the guilt of that. Unfortunately he's too traumatized to realize they were right all along.

"but you can't act like you listed a ton of shit when half the points on your list were just you stating a preference."

Again, duh.

"He'll failure will have nothing to do with how Titan failed, while Zod's is directly tied to Krypton"

Thanks for highlighting the tragedy of it. There was a problem with Titan that no one could solve but Thanos ofc thought he could. Him failing and him letting himself fail by not going through with Titan's fall is a tragedy. It's someone wanting to do the right thing but when that time came failed to do so. Its why Thanos had to sacrifice Gamora because he could not feel that way again.

Zod is just some warrior who wants to save Krypton because he was born that way.

"I'm sure he would rather have had him on his side, than not. It's not him crying about it, since again he doesn't cry unless it's extreme"

But that doesn't mean regret, my guy. Duh Zod would have wanted someone to agree with him but if they don't it's pretty much "oh well".

"And him taking Zod's life was the ultimate declaration that he chose Earth."

But he never once was not going to not save Earth. Zod never had him thinking "hey maybe let me give this some thought". None of that happens. He wanted to stop Zod from the beginning and that's that. And his death doesn't mean something either. Sure he screams but it's because he had to kill someone. He doesn't want to kill anybody. But what happens after that? Nothing. It's never discussed again in MOS. It doesn't change Clark as a character because it's meaningless.

"Yes he did, because he was a character who was told what to do by both his dads and ultimately he had to make his own choice. He turned his back on Krypton."

He was never not going to. Like do you not get that? He literally was never going to pick Krypton. He didn't even seem concerned about Krypton dying or him destroying it again knowing he wiped out any chance of his race surviving. It's not even a debate for him.

"This part of the discussion has warped from where it started of. Point is he was having fun, which wasn't a quality of Zod."

Which ties into his arc.

"I state from the get go that Thanos showed more emotinal range, but I say why the lack of it works for Zod."

No, you said it was more important when Zod showed emotion and all I've been arguing is why it doesn't because it means nothing.

"Zod is a general, he is supposed to be strong for his people".

Which makes the scene even less impactful. If that's what Zod is and why he is emotionless then why did he go back to being emotionless when all his people were dead? He should have showed that pain throughout the fight instead of just more evil sh!t like "I'll kill you!!!" Think of how much better Zod would have been if he was an emotional wreck.

"Here's where you say he shows it a lot"

"The phrasing of each is trying to take credit in two sections."

No. I never said Thanos showed rare emotion, I said "you don't think he's an emotional wreck all the time do you" (paraphrasing). Thanos only shows emotion for Gamora but it's such an important relationship to him that when he does lose her he remains a wreck throughout the remainder of the film. Zod instantly is back to being cold.

"I didn't mean that he was sadistic towards her, just that unlike Zod he was sadistic. Because like you state he got off on hurting people."

I don't understand your point. What are you arguing then?

"Love and misguided parent are not the themes of Infinity War. They are rather just aspects of Thanos's character. I would stretch to say sacrifice isn't a theme either."

Yes they are. IW doesn't need exposition dialogue to state its themes it simply shows them.

Quill, Scarlet, Vision, Gamora, Loki and Thanos all love someone in this film. And because of that love they must either kill or sacrifice that person for the greater good of the universe. That is the theme of IW. We see it 4 times in the film and Thanos very existence is responsible for it all. Like how did you not get this?

And Thanos love for Gamora is the definition of misguided. He loves her from a warped viewpoint as many abusive parents/relationships go. It's not healthy what they do to the abuser but they often view it as love. We literally see this theme being played out for 6 minutes straight.

"But do tell me what is philosophical about his plan?"

You know that Thanos plan is the Malthusian philosophy, right?

Not to mention Thanos is a Consequentialist.

"My point is that the villain who thinks they are doing the right thing was tackled in a new way with Zod. And you've yet to really argue against this point, you mainly just dumb down what is being said and ignore the point of the movie."

It wasn't tackled in a new way. You keep saying it but all you're doing is saying "they did it the philisophical route" but never explaining how. Sounds like you're just saying that because you think the word philisophical actually makes something better haha

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#45 Edited by Vulkanian (548 posts) - - Show Bio

@godzilla44: It’s not opinion based though. Anakin and Vader aren’t even the same character. I thought the movies made this very obvious. It’s like saying Bruce Banner and the Hulk are the same character.

Vader’s “arc” consists of a last minute change of heart because Sidious was frying Luke. Literally out of nowhere.

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#46 Posted by darthvaderrocks (1074 posts) - - Show Bio

@godzilla44: "Everything you stated is opinion based, nothing you can argue with. I gave you Vader's arc, where's Thanos??"

Please show me Vader in conflict before the plot needed to be so Luke didn't die. You can surely do that, right?

"Oh yeah he doesn't have one, just because he cries when he kills his daughter, doesn't make a great villain"

Just because Vader saved his son doesn't mean he's a great villain. You see how easy it is to twist that dumb thinking around? Oh and are you actually gonna even prove me wrong because so far you're barely even debating my points. Not even offering a rebuttal.

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#47 Posted by godzilla44 (7181 posts) - - Show Bio

@godzilla44: "Everything you stated is opinion based, nothing you can argue with. I gave you Vader's arc, where's Thanos??"

Please show me Vader in conflict before the plot needed to be so Luke didn't die. You can surely do that, right?

"Oh yeah he doesn't have one, just because he cries when he kills his daughter, doesn't make a great villain"

Just because Vader saved his son doesn't mean he's a great villain. You see how easy it is to twist that dumb thinking around? Oh and are you actually gonna even prove me wrong because so far you're barely even debating my points. Not even offering a rebuttal.

The whole conflict was him not killing Luke in the first place he wanted him by his side and overtake Sidous control of the empire. Have you watched the movies?? Anakin is VADER, you saying that they're not the same is your opinion.

Again where's Thanos's arc???? I've given FACTS about Vader yet you haven't mention anything about Thanos.

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#48 Posted by godzilla44 (7181 posts) - - Show Bio

@godzilla44: It’s not opinion based though. Anakin and Vader aren’t even the same character. I thought the movies made this very obvious. It’s like saying Bruce Banner and the Hulk are the same character.

Vader’s “arc” consists of a last minute change of heart because Sidious was frying Luke. Literally out of nowhere.

They are the same, where in the entire series do they show they're completely they're different characters?? You can't compare Hulk and Vader, completely two different scenarios. Banner literally transforms into Hulk, Darth Vader is just a name Sidous gives him.

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#49 Edited by darthvaderrocks (1074 posts) - - Show Bio

@godzilla44: That's not conflict. Sidious never ordered him to kill Luke to begin with so what's he conflicted about? To think Vader and Anakin aren't two different characters is simply dumb. Why people to this day still believe they are is quite insane when the films literally scream in our faces they aren't the same.

"Again where's Thanos's arc???? I've given FACTS about Vader yet you haven't mention anything about Thanos."

I've already gave his arc in in the original comment you replied to. You can go and read that.

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#50 Posted by Jgames (8083 posts) - - Show Bio

Just the fight itself, they are both amazing. But in context of the movie, Titan is just much better. Not only for being a better movie overall, but I did care more for the Marvel characters compare to Superman and Zod. Plus blatant product placement, and Superman doing a great job of saving the world but not the city.