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#1 Posted by Sophisticated_Ignorance (1175 posts) - - Show Bio

How?

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#2 Posted by Jucaslucasa (8663 posts) - - Show Bio

Plot

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#3 Posted by Life_Without_Progress (15409 posts) - - Show Bio

Plot.

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#4 Posted by supremeintelligence (696 posts) - - Show Bio

I can tag speedsters too if they stand there and do nothing about it

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#5 Posted by KrleAvenger (23218 posts) - - Show Bio

PIS and CIS.

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#6 Posted by NakedSnek (230 posts) - - Show Bio

Through seduction

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#7 Posted by Straja (442 posts) - - Show Bio

Well here certain somebody is not allowed to win which means lifting strenght equals striking power,martial arts mastery,infinite fighting experiance,fighting genius level insticts etc... While runing speed equals combat speed,reaction speed,reflexes etc...Which bring us to the point where superman and flash fight at faster than light speeds and deliver solar system level of punches even though they never performed on that level, while losing to lex luthor,batman,captain cold in real life.

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#8 Posted by BruceRogers (11545 posts) - - Show Bio

Plot and then some.

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#9 Edited by KrleAvenger (23218 posts) - - Show Bio

@straja: Captain Cold never defeated the Flash (unless you are talking about New 52 Flash who loses in a figh against everybody) and Lex never defeated Superman without prep despite the fact that he used Kryptonite. Also what exactly are you talking about? Speedsters way slower than the Flash preformed multiple sub-light speed, light speed FTL combat and reaction time speed. Same goes for Superman (although none of them have solar system level striking power). Also Batman NEVER defeated either one of them in a strait up fight.

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#10 Posted by lukehero (34460 posts) - - Show Bio

There’s usually context to why they get hit.

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#11 Posted by Straja (442 posts) - - Show Bio

@krleavenger: I just answered the question what happens when you put these characters against others...

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#12 Posted by DanielDaRipper (2217 posts) - - Show Bio

As everyone has already said because plot reasons.

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#13 Posted by TSciallsolle3451 (999 posts) - - Show Bio

@brucerogers: @straja: @krleavenger: @supremeintelligence: @life_without_progress: @jucaslucasa: funny that all of the responses regarding the likes of Superman and Flash getting tagged/defeated by the likes of Batman considered these events "plot" and therefore should not be counted as part of a comparison discussion. Yet all have forgotten that superhumans winning ANY battle in the story is still considered part of a story, and therefore IS also plot.

Lets face the obvious bias, if there were none Batman and Superman and Flash would be equally as good in a fight.

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#14 Posted by BruceRogers (11545 posts) - - Show Bio
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#15 Posted by RBT (16498 posts) - - Show Bio

Its only an inconsistency if it happens in live action.

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#16 Edited by KrleAvenger (23218 posts) - - Show Bio

@straja said:

@krleavenger: I just answered the question what happens when you put these characters against others...

Then I guess I misunderstood you or something.

funny that all of the responses regarding the likes of Superman and Flash getting tagged/defeated by the likes of Batman considered these events "plot" and therefore should not be counted as part of a comparison discussion. Yet all have forgotten that superhumans winning ANY battle in the story is still considered part of a story, and therefore IS also plot.

Lets face the obvious bias, if there were none Batman and Superman and Flash would be equally as good in a fight.

How about you read what I'm saying instead of bothering everyone on this thread about bias. Batman NEVER defeated Superman or the Flash without them suffering from PIS or CIS BECAUSE OF THE CONTEXT OF THE FIGHT. It has nothing to do with bias or disregarding the fight. It's just the fact that THE CONTEXT of the fight makes those showing invalid.

Go ahead. List all those instances where Batman "defeated" Superman and the Flash. I'll be more than happy to debunk them.

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#17 Posted by TSciallsolle3451 (999 posts) - - Show Bio

Basically double standards. A human overcoming a superhuman is considered "plot" and therefore this event is not counted in part of a comparison discussion (e.g.: battles). But any event in a story is part of plot, so why is it so special that a human overcoming a superhuman has to be excluded from discussion?

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#18 Posted by TSciallsolle3451 (999 posts) - - Show Bio

@tsciallsolle3451 said:

funny that all of the responses regarding the likes of Superman and Flash getting tagged/defeated by the likes of Batman considered these events "plot" and therefore should not be counted as part of a comparison discussion. Yet all have forgotten that superhumans winning ANY battle in the story is still considered part of a story, and therefore IS also plot.

Lets face the obvious bias, if there were none Batman and Superman and Flash would be equally as good in a fight.

How about you read what I'm saying instead of bothering everyone on this thread about bias. Batman NEVER defeated Superman or the Flash without them suffering from PIS or CIS BECAUSE OF THE CONTEXT OF THE FIGHT. It has nothing to do with bias or disregarding the fight. It's just the fact that THE CONTEXT of the fight makes those showing invalid.

Go ahead. List all those instances where Batman "defeated" Superman and the Flash. I'll be more than happy to debunk them.

The fact that you mentioned "suffering from PIS/CIS" is implicitly disregarding the fight as not a legitimate event/feat that can be used in a discussion.

The whole idea of these bias is that someone starts a debate saying "Batman vs Superman. Batman has prep, who wins?" A fan claimed "Batman secretly use kryptonite. Batman wins". The entire crowd start whining and crying "Its PIS!" despite the many times this has happened. If a feat happened so many times, then it has to be consistent and therefore not PIS.

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#19 Posted by Watcher5000 (7266 posts) - - Show Bio

Plot, it doesn't happen nearly as often as you're making it seem though.

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#20 Edited by KrleAvenger (23218 posts) - - Show Bio

@tsciallsolle3451:

The fact that you mentioned "suffering from PIS/CIS" is implicitly disregarding the fight as not a legitimate event/feat that can be used in a discussion.

That depends on what fight we are talking about.

The whole idea of these bias is that someone starts a debate saying "Batman vs Superman. Batman has prep, who wins?" A fan claimed "Batman secretly use kryptonite. Batman wins". The entire crowd start whining and crying "Its PIS!" despite the many times this has happened. If a feat happened so many times, then it has to be consistent and therefore not PIS.

I NEVER SAID SUPERMAN GETTING BEATEN BY KRYPTONITE IS PIS! I said that the Flash and Superman getting tagged by people with no Super Speed is PIS (without context getting involved). Them getting beaten by people slower than them is another thing, but again, that depends on what fight you are talking about. Anyway, show me Batman beating the Flash or Superman in a strait up fight that is canon.

Like really, stop complaining about bias and non existing double standards and instead just READ WHAT I'M POSTING.

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#21 Edited by JamesWayne (482 posts) - - Show Bio

@krleavenger: yeah i agree but the whole point of characters like vatman and luther is prep. Of course theyd lose a straight up fight. I dont understand, Is the question why are they EVER hit? Or why are they hit by kung fu people in a straight up fight.

I mean if they should only ever be hit by ftl regardless of situation....then you have a broken boring fighter (not character cause both clark and barry are great characters)

Ah, just read your other posts. For the context thing, both bruce and lex have gotten the leg up on clark through prep, but theres always conditions. Not because they cant win or lose but because dc is smarter than marvel and will refuse to straight up answer those questions. The only thing thell answer is in a straight up fight clark wins.....but okay, the normal human isnt going to do much to the god. The most wothout prep bruce could hope for is hush.

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#22 Posted by KrleAvenger (23218 posts) - - Show Bio

@jameswayne:

@krleavenger: yeah i agree but the whole point of characters like vatman and luther is prep. Of course theyd lose a straight up fight. I dont understand, Is the question why are they EVER hit? Or why are they hit by kung fu people in a straight up fight.

Well of course. If Batman or Lex use prep then it's perfectly fine for them to beat either Superman or the Flash. But the thing is, I have yet to actually see them do so.

I mean if they should only ever be hit by ftl regardless of situation....then you have a broken boring fighter (not character cause both clark and barry are great characters)

Yes exactly. If they always fight at their best (like at their top speed or anything close to it) then you can't write any stories with them unless those stories focus on fighting people on the same level of speed. Obviously they will get tagged by people who don't have super speed, even street level characters. But I don't understand why people hold that against Clark and Barry/Wally when EVERY SINGLE COMIC BOOK CHARACTER STRUGGLED WITH WEAK CHARACTERS AT SOME POINT, and same goes for fast characters getting tagged.

The reason why we disregard all those instances is because based on feats and consistency, those people would never tag the Flash or even Superman if they actually try (of course, it depends on what people you are talking about, MMH, Green Lantern, Wonder Woman and those kind of people can definitely tag Superman, and people like Savitar, Black Flash, Zolomon and Thawne can also tag the Flash).

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#23 Posted by JasonHawke (3171 posts) - - Show Bio

Is it really PIS if they consistently get tagged by non-speedsters?

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#24 Posted by GXrevs06 (2216 posts) - - Show Bio

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#25 Posted by StormShadow_X (13488 posts) - - Show Bio

@lukehero said:

There’s usually context to why they get hit.

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#26 Edited by Dextersinister1 (985 posts) - - Show Bio

Is it really PIS if they consistently get tagged by non-speedsters?

YES

This question comes up multiple times.

If the writer themselves acknowledge it's PIS but go ahead with it then it's PIS.

Example given some time ago by a writer was this.

Villain "look here comes the Flash". The writer say's that shouldn't even happen, the villains would be defeated before they even knew what happened.

The reason is that without PIS there would often be no story. You can find lots of Superman and Flash instances where they fight in silly ways and when it comes towards the end of the comic or comic arc they use superspeed and win instantly.

The Flash show is full of stupid moments where he zooms around villains that in other instances he has beaten instantly.

One of the more infamous examples is when he's up against a person who can disguise themselves. Now this person has no ability to make themselves more dangerous or tougher but then go through a lot of trouble to create a serum that removes the shape shifting ability. Once Barry injects the serum to temporarily nullify the powers he just instantly knocks out the villain. There was literally nothing stopping Barry from knocking out the villain beforehand.

Barry's up against a character that can shoot lasers, so he learns to create after images. Barry creates after images all around the villain and after some time knocks them out. If Barry could move so fast that he could create multiple images around the villain he could have stopped wasting time and just punched the villain.

These 2 examples are the writers trying to make it look like there is some sort of drama and that Barry couldn't just casually beat these people.

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#27 Posted by KanyeCosby (1720 posts) - - Show Bio

Sounds like someone is salty that their favorite character gets blitzed.

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#28 Posted by Helloman (8958 posts) - - Show Bio

Plot

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#29 Posted by JokerBat88 (816 posts) - - Show Bio
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#30 Posted by macleen (632 posts) - - Show Bio

Sounds like someone is salty that their favorite character gets blitzed.

Reeeaaaally salty

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#31 Posted by MetalJimmor (4540 posts) - - Show Bio

When someone says "because plot" they are just using a short hand way of saying "because the writer wrote themselves into a corner and needed to tweak events to let the underdog win, even though the justification for that win isn't satisfactory and goes against what the story tells us about what they are capable of."

It is absolutely possible to put in a little effort into your fight scenes to make things feel natural. Characters using their powers to their optimal effect. Characters using strategy and not falling for obvious traps. Things of that nature. When a character is blatantly performing far below their normal levels that is PIS. Plot Induced Stupidity. Because the character is behaving stupidly because the plot demands it, because the writer wasn't smart enough to find an organic, natural feeling way for their desired effect to happen.

Just because PIS is consistent does not mean it isn't PIS anymore. This is very important. If we KNOW for a fact that a character can move at massively hypersonic speeds and he gets tagged by a bullet that he saw coming, it's PIS. It doesn't matter if he somehow gets tagged by a bullet every other episode. It's inconsistent with his described powerset when we see him circumventing the globe in a few minutes, moving so fast people can't see him, and out running beams of pure light. It's impossible for him to be both slower than a bullet and faster than light. That is why it is PIS.

That brings us to outliers. This is when a character does something once or twice that is far outside their normal range of power. Say our hypersonic speedster who gets tagged by bullets has a single feat of going faster than light. That light beam feat I described. He consistently moves at hypersonic speeds, but this is a light speed feat. Does that mean he is light speed now? No. He has never gone that fast before, never goes that fast again save maybe on one extra occasion, and nothing within the story explains why he suddenly got that fast. Thus this extreme high end feat can be safely disregarded for debating purposes.

On Comicvine we ignore PIS when debating, because if we didn't there would be no way to objectively come to an answer. The characters are assumed to be fighting to the best of their ability, and PIS inherently means they weren't. Nobody wants to debate using a Goku who is going to let his guard down at a crucial moment allowing the Punisher to kill him with an eye shot. Nobody wants to debate using a Superman who forgets he can absolutely blitz Light Yagami before he even uses his Deathnote.

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#32 Edited by stoneyalex (1410 posts) - - Show Bio

it depends if they are in character

Supermans first instinct is to not speedblitz someone and snap their neck he is a hero

bloodlusted superman and normal superman are different characters

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#33 Posted by tensor (7910 posts) - - Show Bio

Plot he has use his powers before on slower characters that tag him before that you cannot touch him if he wants. Which makes sense. Yes he has got tag but if he does not want you touch him good luck.

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#34 Posted by Thor_Parker82 (13493 posts) - - Show Bio

Speed >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> everything else.

At least according to Comic Vine.

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