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#1 Edited by TourneyMaster (1544 posts) - - Show Bio

In honor of recent films portraying strong female characters that never existed before 2010, I decided to find the best fictional female(s) who starred or heavily co star in films. This is possibly a popularity contest in the end, but in the end there can only be one. Try to take into account the impact on media, the character(s) themselves, and the movie/show franchise as a whole. I have 24 female(s) in mind, so check here every day to drop a vote.

Every match will last roughly a day, and I will tally votes. Please do leave comments why you feel this way as it makes for good reading. Have fun and enjoy.

Round 1: Wonder Woman vs Jessica Jones

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I figure to start this off with a solid Marvel vs DC pairing. Jessica Jones starring in her two Netflix Seasons as well the season of Defenders takes on the DCEU Wonder Woman of Batman vs Superman, Wonder Woman, and recent Justice League. Which is the better Protagonist for whatever reason in your views?

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#2 Posted by kiba (3728 posts) - - Show Bio

Diana

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#3 Edited by BruceRogers (17317 posts) - - Show Bio

Jessica Jones for me. I'm not saying that misery is necessary for character, but she has been through a lot of shit and yet fought through every step of the way.

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#4 Posted by Warlockmage (9213 posts) - - Show Bio
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Jessica for me... mostly because of what Kilgrave did to her. she should be broken... and shes not

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#5 Edited by TourneyMaster (1544 posts) - - Show Bio

@brucerogers said:

Jessica Jones for me. I'm not saying that misery is necessary for character, but she has been through a lot of shit and fought through, every step of the way.

I feel like they're polar opposites. One was positive of the goodness in people, always took control, wanted to be the savior. The other is broken down, distrusts everyone, and does not want to be a hero at all.

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#6 Posted by Supermanthor (18992 posts) - - Show Bio

jj

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#7 Posted by BruceRogers (17317 posts) - - Show Bio

@tourneymaster: I agree. That's what makes her a better character in my opinion.

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#8 Posted by thor321 (1917 posts) - - Show Bio

Jessica by a mile.

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#9 Posted by Helloman (29800 posts) - - Show Bio

Jessica.

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#10 Posted by infamous5445 (426 posts) - - Show Bio

Jessica definitely.

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#11 Posted by The_Hajduk (6209 posts) - - Show Bio

@brucerogers said:

Jessica Jones for me. I'm not saying that misery is necessary for character, but she has been through a lot of shit and fought through, every step of the way.

I feel like they're polar opposites. One was positive of the goodness in people, always took control, wanted to be the savior. The other is broken down, distrusts everyone, and does not want to be a hero at all.

Very interesting observation right here.

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#12 Posted by TourneyMaster (1544 posts) - - Show Bio
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#13 Edited by agent41 (15573 posts) - - Show Bio

Diana. As far as her solo film goes. I think they did a great job at establishing her as somebody you can connect with. She was curious, capricious, enamored of her aunt and often defiant of her mother. We also need to analyze her character beyond that film. Diana as a character is very apealing to me, because she chose her destiny. She was not thrust into heroism by tragedy in her life. She lives the present. She’s not grounded by her past. She’s not overtly negative like a pessimist, nor is she naively upbeat like the optimist. She is the realist. She is the balance.

In terms of impact. It should be obvious that Wonder Woman is a far more impactful character on the media.

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#14 Posted by The_Hajduk (6209 posts) - - Show Bio
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#15 Edited by TheOneWhoPullsTheStrings (2746 posts) - - Show Bio

For comics? Diana.

For live action media? Jessica.

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#16 Edited by The_Hajduk (6209 posts) - - Show Bio

@agent41 said:

Diana. As far as her solo film goes. I think they did a great job at establishing her as somebody you can connect with. She was curious, capricious, enamored of her aunt and often defiant of her mother. We also need to analyze her character beyond that film. Diana as a character is very apealing to me, because she chose her destiny. She was not thrust into heroism by tragedy in her life. She lives the present. She’s not grounded by her past. She’s not overtly negative like a pessimist, nor is she naively upbeat like the optimist. She is the realist. She is the balance.

Thanos would think that's hot.

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#18 Posted by agent41 (15573 posts) - - Show Bio

@tourneymaster said:
@brucerogers said:

Jessica Jones for me. I'm not saying that misery is necessary for character, but she has been through a lot of shit and fought through, every step of the way.

I feel like they're polar opposites. One was positive of the goodness in people, always took control, wanted to be the savior. The other is broken down, distrusts everyone, and does not want to be a hero at all.

Very interesting observation right here.

I will never agree with the idea that tragedy makes you a better character. It's like saying that suffering is more important to be a hero, than saving the day like a hero is supposed to do.

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#19 Posted by MICKEY-MOUSE (36712 posts) - - Show Bio

JJ

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#20 Posted by agent41 (15573 posts) - - Show Bio

And as far as impact goes. There is no chance is hell that jj is as impactful as Wonder Woman.

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#21 Posted by TourneyMaster (1544 posts) - - Show Bio

8 Jones vs 2 Diana as of now. Keep the opinions coming.

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#22 Posted by masterwitcher88 (1352 posts) - - Show Bio

I started writing stories and getting into comics because of Wonder Woman, I didn't even know who Jessica Jones was until Netflix.

@agent41 said:

And as far as impact goes. There is no chance is hell that jj is as impactful as Wonder Woman.

Truth.

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#23 Posted by Aros001 (3644 posts) - - Show Bio

@agent41 said:
@the_hajduk said:
@tourneymaster said:
@brucerogers said:

Jessica Jones for me. I'm not saying that misery is necessary for character, but she has been through a lot of shit and fought through, every step of the way.

I feel like they're polar opposites. One was positive of the goodness in people, always took control, wanted to be the savior. The other is broken down, distrusts everyone, and does not want to be a hero at all.

Very interesting observation right here.

I will never agree with the idea that tragedy makes you a better character. It's like saying that suffering is more important to be a hero, than saving the day like a hero is supposed to do.

I think it's more how the person deals with tragedy that makes them a better character, not just going through tragedy itself. It's the classic balancing act between relatable and iconic. Ideally you want both, which is why I've always hated the stereotype of "Marvel is the heroes you can relate to, Dc is the heroes you can look up to", because it shoves too many characters into a box and risks making them stale and one-dimensional.

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#24 Edited by agent41 (15573 posts) - - Show Bio

@aros001 said:
@agent41 said:
@the_hajduk said:
@tourneymaster said:
@brucerogers said:

Jessica Jones for me. I'm not saying that misery is necessary for character, but she has been through a lot of shit and fought through, every step of the way.

I feel like they're polar opposites. One was positive of the goodness in people, always took control, wanted to be the savior. The other is broken down, distrusts everyone, and does not want to be a hero at all.

Very interesting observation right here.

I will never agree with the idea that tragedy makes you a better character. It's like saying that suffering is more important to be a hero, than saving the day like a hero is supposed to do.

I think it's more how the person deals with tragedy that makes them a better character, not just going through tragedy itself. It's the classic balancing act between relatable and iconic. Ideally you want both, which is why I've always hated the stereotype of "Marvel is the heroes you can relate to, Dc is the heroes you can look up to", because it shoves too many characters into a box and risks making them stale and one-dimensional.

We are still talking about a subjective thing here. Which is why i can respect others opinion if they relate to jj more. Because we can all react differently to certain problems. The view of something being relatable can also vary depending on the person. I relate more to characters like Diana. People that do what they do because they want to. Not because tragedy in life drew them there. She is not an accidental hero, somebody that is doing heroism when she doesn't even want to. She is who she is. She wants to make the world a better place. She is not a tradicional amazon, or a human or a God. She is just herself.

But there is one thing that is not subjective. Impact. Wonder Woman hate her or love, is the most iconic super heroine. She is the super heroine.

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#25 Posted by AllStarSuperman (43150 posts) - - Show Bio

Diana

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#26 Posted by Aros001 (3644 posts) - - Show Bio

@agent41 said:
@aros001 said:
@agent41 said:
@the_hajduk said:
@tourneymaster said:
@brucerogers said:

Jessica Jones for me. I'm not saying that misery is necessary for character, but she has been through a lot of shit and fought through, every step of the way.

I feel like they're polar opposites. One was positive of the goodness in people, always took control, wanted to be the savior. The other is broken down, distrusts everyone, and does not want to be a hero at all.

Very interesting observation right here.

I will never agree with the idea that tragedy makes you a better character. It's like saying that suffering is more important to be a hero, than saving the day like a hero is supposed to do.

I think it's more how the person deals with tragedy that makes them a better character, not just going through tragedy itself. It's the classic balancing act between relatable and iconic. Ideally you want both, which is why I've always hated the stereotype of "Marvel is the heroes you can relate to, Dc is the heroes you can look up to", because it shoves too many characters into a box and risks making them stale and one-dimensional.

We are still talking about a subjective thing here. Which is why i can respect others opinion if they relate to jj more. Because we can all react differently to certain problems. The view of something being relatable can also vary depending on the person. I relate more to characters like Diana. People that do what they do because they want to. Not because tragedy in life drew them there. She is not an accidental hero, somebody that is doing heroism when she doesn't even want to. She is who she is. She wants to make the world a better place. She is not a tradicional amazon, or a human or a God. She is just herself.

But there is one thing that is not subjective. Impact. Wonder Woman hate her or love, is the most iconic super heroine. She is the super heroine.

Don't get me wrong, I'm on Diana's side for this thread too. I just think the reason people focus so much on tragedy in a hero's backstory is that it typically serves as motivation and thus gives the audience a greater insight into the character, making them typically at least more interesting than just doing what they do just because.

Diana does have non-tragedy based motivation for wanting to be a hero, so that's why she still works. I'm just keeping in mind that two of my favorite superheroes are Spider-Man, whom tries to help everyone he can because of what happened the last time he deemed something as not his problem, and Batman, whom because of the tragedy he went through wants to make sure no one else has to suffer like he did; both of which inform a lot about the character.

Like I said, it's a balancing act between relatable and iconic. It's not the tragedies Spider-Man and Batman went through that I like about them but how they rose above it that I find inspirational. Likewise with the Wonder Woman movie, it wasn't the darkness of the wartime around her that I liked but how Diana fought against that darkness and brought light into it that I found inspirational (kind of like Aang vs. the Firelord, if you've ever watched Avatar).

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#27 Posted by Kairan1979 (26904 posts) - - Show Bio

Jessica Jones for me. I'm not saying that misery is necessary for character, but she has been through a lot of shit and yet fought through every step of the way.

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#28 Posted by Glavene (201 posts) - - Show Bio

Jessica Jones for me. I'm not saying that misery is necessary for character, but she has been through a lot of shit and yet fought through every step of the way.

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#29 Posted by agent41 (15573 posts) - - Show Bio

@aros001:

@brucerogers said:

Jessica Jones for me. I'm not saying that misery is necessary for character, but she has been through a lot of shit and yet fought through every step of the way.

That's fair and all. But i need to say all heros face obstacles. It's a great message to go through all the things jj went through and come on top. But so is challenging yoursef to be the best you can be, and want to go out there and help the world because you want to make it a better place. By doing so you will also face obstacles, that you could have avoided if you stayed in your comfort zone just minding your own bussiness.

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#30 Posted by BruceRogers (17317 posts) - - Show Bio

@agent41: I never said or hinted otherwise....

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#31 Posted by Rockette (5905 posts) - - Show Bio

Jessica Jones

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#32 Edited by mrmonster (15169 posts) - - Show Bio

Wonder Woman

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#33 Posted by SupremeGeneration (11724 posts) - - Show Bio

I feel like Diana would win through sheer impact alone.

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#34 Posted by chicago_bastard (210 posts) - - Show Bio

impact on media: Diana stomps

the character(s) themselves: slight edge to Jessica

the movie/show franchise as a whole: cinema > Netflix

So overall I give it to Diana.

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#35 Posted by Wyldsong (9750 posts) - - Show Bio

@agent41 said:

Diana. As far as her solo film goes. I think they did a great job at establishing her as somebody you can connect with. She was curious, capricious, enamored of her aunt and often defiant of her mother. We also need to analyze her character beyond that film. Diana as a character is very apealing to me, because she chose her destiny. She was not thrust into heroism by tragedy in her life. She lives the present. She’s not grounded by her past. She’s not overtly negative like a pessimist, nor is she naively upbeat like the optimist. She is the realist. She is the balance.

Pretty sure Jones is going to take it from what I have seen of the voting, but I agree with this sentiment very much. I am more of a Marvel kind of guy, but I have to back Diana in this particular vote.

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#36 Edited by TourneyMaster (1544 posts) - - Show Bio

@chicago_bastard said:

movie/show franchise as a whole: cinema > Netflix

Just curious why you feel Netflix < Cinema? While movies will always make more money due to charging fees over viewership payments, more people have access to TV shows and Netflix than movie theaters or renting DVDs'Blu rays these days. One of the many reasons movie theaters are struggling hard these past 5 years. So im curious on you Netflix < Cinema base on? Cash made in Movie Theaters > how many people watch Netflix?

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#37 Edited by ANTHP2000 (26953 posts) - - Show Bio

Diana for me. Jessica is a total badass though, and I adore her character partly because of her misery.

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#38 Posted by Vertigo- (17730 posts) - - Show Bio

@agent41 said:

Diana. As far as her solo film goes. I think they did a great job at establishing her as somebody you can connect with. She was curious, capricious, enamored of her aunt and often defiant of her mother. We also need to analyze her character beyond that film. Diana as a character is very apealing to me, because she chose her destiny. She was not thrust into heroism by tragedy in her life. She lives the present. She’s not grounded by her past. She’s not overtly negative like a pessimist, nor is she naively upbeat like the optimist. She is the realist. She is the balance.

I'll second this

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#39 Edited by TourneyMaster (1544 posts) - - Show Bio

11-10 Jones. Keep em coming!

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#40 Posted by agent41 (15573 posts) - - Show Bio

@vertigo-: @wyldsong: And i forgot to mention in my first post, that Wonder Woman is by far a more impactful character than jj. Since impact on media is another thing to consider as it is stated in the OP.

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#41 Posted by chicago_bastard (210 posts) - - Show Bio

@chicago_bastard said:

movie/show franchise as a whole: cinema > Netflix

Just curious why you feel Netflix < Cinema? While movies will always make more money due to charging fees over viewership payments, more people have access to TV shows and Netflix than movie theaters or renting DVDs'Blu rays these days. One of the many reasons movie theaters are struggling hard these past 5 years. So im curious on you Netflix < Cinema base on? Cash made in Movie Theaters > how many people watch Netflix?

WW made 412 million USD at the US box office, so if we say the average ticket price is 9 USD that would mean that around 45 million people in the US saw the movie in theaters.

Netflix has 58 million subscribers in the US but I doubt that a majority of them watched Jessica Jones or Defenders as the Netflix Marvel shows are mostly niche products for comic fans. Netflix doesn't publish its ratings but maybe we can use AoS for comparison. The first season of AoS was the most successful with an average of 8.3 million viewers so it doesn't come close to the number of viewers WW had in cinemas and I think Defenders/JJ don't either.

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#42 Edited by TourneyMaster (1544 posts) - - Show Bio

@chicago_bastard: There is 325.7 million people in America roughly by estimates. Your saying nearly 1/7 of America went to spend hard earn cash to see WW? I know maybe 5 people out of the 100 of friends, and family who saw it. Your stats are questionable. I do know 2 guys who saw the movie 3 times each Thats 6 people accounted for right there. Not to mention the various price difference of tickets between normal showings, special showings, IMAX, and 3D prices mate.

Your over simplifying this badly. You cannot get a accurate account how many saw Jones vs how many saw WW. Nor account for future exposure to both films since years from now many will continue to see Jones on Netflix vs how many will buy DVDs to watch WW or maybe if lucky catch it on TV someday. Im just saying. Saying Cinemas > Netflix pretty hard statement to prove.

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#43 Posted by ImMadNice (1296 posts) - - Show Bio

WW

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#44 Posted by agent41 (15573 posts) - - Show Bio

@chicago_bastard: There is 325.7 million people in America roughly by estimates. Your saying nearly 1/7 of America went to spend hard earn cash to see WW? I know maybe 5 people out of the 100 of friends, and family who saw it. Your stats are questionable. I do know 2 guys who saw the movie 3 times each Thats 6 people accounted for right there. Not to mention the various price difference of tickets between normal showings, special showings, IMAX, and 3D prices mate.

Your over simplifying this badly. You cannot get a accurate account how many saw Jones vs how many saw WW. Nor account for future exposure to both films since years from now many will continue to see Jones on Netflix vs how many will buy DVDs to watch WW or maybe if lucky catch it on TV someday. Im just saying. Saying Cinemas > Netflix pretty hard statement to prove.

If i remember correctly. Wonder Woman film also had great raitings when it debuted on TV right? @archizooom

Also jj is not compsarable to Wonder woman in terms of media impact.

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#45 Posted by PenguinDust (8930 posts) - - Show Bio

Diana because I believe she embodies hope and is a better role model. Jones is more complex, but I found her often unlikable and sad. At her core she may be a hero struggling to rise above her cynicism and despair, but even at her finest I didn't see her as inspirational. Diana, on the other hand, was not only about saving the world, but also about making the lives of people around her better, and about encouraging them to be better people.

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#46 Posted by chicago_bastard (210 posts) - - Show Bio

@tourneymaster: If I go by the people I know (none of them interested in comic books), no one of them ever heard of Jessica Jones, they don't even know that a TV show with that name exists. Outside of the comic community these shows are an obscurity. The Wonder Woman movie on the other hand is very well known even amongst non-comicfans, almost everybody under a certain age heard of it and some did even go see it.

But let's not speak about the limited number of people we know personally when we can look at something that should give us a good clue of how the viewers compare. I'm speaking of imdb votings: Defenders has 72.000 votes, JJ 168.000 and WW 466.000.

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#47 Posted by TourneyMaster (1544 posts) - - Show Bio

@agent41: Considering the political driven times we live in now, Im sure you can always make a argument she had a media impact as first movie female super hero, which is a lie. Buffy is a super hero and came out as a film and insane successful TV series back in late 90s and early 2000s. I wonder how WW will be viewed when compared to other titles that were made DECADES before her film, characters on this tourney coming up.

But I digress. My issue was saying Cinema > Netflix which is very questionable logic is all.

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#48 Edited by TourneyMaster (1544 posts) - - Show Bio

@chicago_bastard:

If I go by the people I know (none of them interested in comic books), no one of them ever heard of Jessica Jones, they don't even know that a TV show with that name exists. Outside of the comic community these shows are an obscurity. The Wonder Woman movie on the other hand is very well known even amongst non-comicfans, almost everybody under a certain age heard of it and some did even go see it.

Thats a false Argument too. many people heard or knew of Wonder Woman way before the film came out. Back in 2000s in the military people across the seas who never heard of comic books knew the jist of Wonder Woman and what she looked like. So that argument of yours is a bust. WW was simply a huge character period for female heroes before the film.

But let's not speak about the limited number of people we know personally when we can look at something that should give us a good clue of how the viewers compare. I'm speaking of imdb votings: Defenders has 72.000 votes, JJ 168.000 and WW 466.000.

So your argument is purely people who took time to vote on IMDB? I never vote on such sites and invested in this shit. So what does that say about the accuracy?

Again its all opinion and one you really cannot back with solid proof is all I was pointing out. Now if you want to say WW film is way hype through identity politic heavy media outlets, and more critics reviewed the film or something, sure you can make that argument and back that with proof.

But back to the initial point, your saying Cinema > Netflix which is pure nonsense and not back by numbers of any kind which is all I was saying. I mean you made a argument of how many movie tickets you estimated were purchase, but never accounted for the vastly different ticket prices or the many people who watch the film 2, 3, dozen times. You claim Netflix has only so many subscribers, but how many of those subscribers share a account with 2, 3, dozen people in the household? I share my Netflix with my wife, and kids. You cannot get solid numbers is the point.

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#49 Edited by agent41 (15573 posts) - - Show Bio

@tourneymaster said:

@agent41: Considering the political driven times we live in now, Im sure you can always make a argument she had a media impact as first movie female super hero, which is a lie. Buffy is a super hero and came out as a film and insane successful TV series back in late 90s and early 2000s. I wonder how WW will be viewed when compared to other titles that were made DECADES before her film, characters on this tourney coming up.

But I digress. My issue was saying Cinema > Netflix which is very questionable logic is all.

And 2 decades before buffy. Wonder Woman was having her own hit TV show. Before her TV show she was on the front page of the debut issue of Ms Magazine. And before that and her TV show in the 70s, she was opening doors for female heros in the comics. And Woner Woman's character has always been involved with a message of feminism and equality. Marston, the creator of the character wasn't alone. His family was also involved in the feminist movement in the 30s and 40s and helped to create Wonder Woman. And Wonder Woman didn't just open doors for women on the pages of comic books. She also opened doors for real women in the comic industry, as Marston also was the first to employ women as editors and writers.

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#50 Edited by TourneyMaster (1544 posts) - - Show Bio

@agent41:

And 2 decades before buffy. Wonder Woman was having her own hit TV show. And before her TV show in the 70s. She was opening doors for female heros in the comics.

And your point? I said Buffy had seven seasons, and 5 seasons spin off series in Angel, and movie before all that. Even if you want to count the meager 3 seasons in 70s WW it took nearly 3 decades to get another major film appearance :/. I know your simply trying to one up mate, but this is DCEU Wonder Woman who the media overblown like no tomorrow as the only female hero in films ever. Thats all I was saying.

And Woner Woman's character has always been involved with a message of feminism and equality. Marston, the creator of the character wasn't alone. His family was also involved in the feminist movement in the 30s and 40s and helped to create Wonder Woman. And Wonder Woman didn't just open doors for women on the pages of comic books. She also opened doors for real women in the comic industry, as Marston also was the first to employ women as editors and writers.

And that matters to me why? I dont watch films for feminism. I watch them for laughs, and action, and maybe a good story of a complete character development.

Im not even sure why your going on about how great WW is. 1st off, I like the Wonder Woman film better than Jessica Jones, but her in BVS and JL was atrocious. Second off I dislike JJ period in general. Boring and aggravating. Last, your a well known chest thumper for WW, so I feel this is the main reason we are off topic right now.

My ONLY point was Cinema > Netflix. You and others are changing the subject to talk how great Wonder Woman as a comic character and beyond is and shit. Typical.