Star Wars: TCW(08) and Legends(C-Canon)

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Wolfrazer

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Edited By Wolfrazer

So I've posted this elsewhere and in some form of fashion on another site, so I figured why not here since a SW debating community is also here...would only make sense yes? Plus I know some aren't on the other sites, so this would also be beneficial and informative in my opinion so here it is.

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Now technically yes it is apart of Legends Canon, but it's not really. Or at the least it isn't apart of the overall Canon(C-Canon) that was put into place prior to 08. So I'm going to go over 2 points here as to why one shouldn't try to mesh TCW(08) with the rest of C-Canon...which is what I see a lot of people do. Now this DOESN'T mean C-Canon is ENTIRELY off the table to use...I'll get into that after the two points.

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1. It makes NO Sense

That's basically it in a nutshell, TCW(08) makes literally no sense to pretty much ANY prior C-Canon published material. Characters are different either appearance wise from how they should be within the timeline(compared to how they look before) or are completely different personality or how they operate. Or they don't even appear AT ALL. Or these new characters are put in that doesn't add up to the prior C-Canon material or even return.

The most glaring of examples of big changes being General Grievous and Aurra Sing.

The first....I mean come on, how are people seeing Grievous 03 and coming to the conclusion that the 08 is the same. They aren't...at all and it's not just visuals either, it's personality and how they operate.

Sing again another great example, in TCW(08) we see that she's pretty much just a bounty hunter, there isn't any mention of her being a former Jedi Padawan or having Jedi training at all.

Yet still whenever these two are brought up in a battle, people still reference TCW(08) and whatever C-Canon material and I'm just sitting here going "...why??" What because Grievous constantly fights Obi-Wan and that somehow makes him a better combatant despite the fact that you don't really need to see them fight for the hundredth time?

Sing I really don't understand, because I'm pretty sure whatever she does in TCW(08), she can do even better when she's actually a formerly trained Jedi and actually having The Force and a lightsaber.

Durge is another HUGE one because he doesn't even appear at all. Despite the fact he was active throughout the Clone Wars against the Republic. Yeah I'm sure missing one of the CIS' Commanders is a big ? mark. Yeah where's the huge alien trained by Mandalorians who has a chip on his shoulder and is thirsty for killing Clones of a Mandalorian?

Ahsoka and Maul....yeah I don't think I need to explain why they throw a large bag of monkey wrenches into everything.

Then there's the fact that the Nightsisters are all Dark Force Users, when that wasn't the case in C-Canon, they were more diverse, hell even the planet Dathomir is completely different too.

1B: C-Canon and T-Canon DIFFERENCES

TCW T-Canon Dathomir/Nightsisters

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EU C-Canon Dathomir

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Now do you see the VAST difference between the two? Let's not even go into the fact that TCW has all of them basically Dark side Force Users and basically destroyed.

EU C-Canon? HA! The Nightsisters are still going strong and they weren't completely Dark Side aligned either, there were various groups of them on both sides of the Force.

Anakin wasn't a Jedi General of the 501st Legion and was pretty much by Obi-Wan's side throughout the entire war. The 501st went through more than 1 General and their Commander was Appo, not Rex.

Oh let's have a look at a timeline aspect here...ok, let's see...after AOTC we have the Battle of Christophsis...which takes place apparently 7 weeks AFTER Geonosis(according to the TCW Novel Wild Space). Here we are introduced to a few new characters, Captain Rex and Ahsoka Tano.....oh and also? Anakin is a Jedi General and apparently no longer a Jedi Padawan.

....Anyone who remembers ANYTHING prior to 08 for SW, knows this cannot be possible because guess where Anakin and Obi-Wan were directly after Geonosis?

"Just saying, we've been stationed in the Tion Cluster for weeks. At this rate, the war will be over before we see a battle.

- SW: Clone Wars Video Game, Anakin Skywalker

Yeah, they have been stationed in the Tion Cluster for WEEKS.

Guess what happens after this? The pair head to Raxus Prime....oh and Anakin is still only a Jedi Padawan and Jedi Commander

.

This is what is called the Dark Reaper Incident from the 03 Star Wars: The Clone Wars video game, which takes place within the SAME YEAR as the Battle of Christophsis among other events and battles within the first weeks of TCW.

There is also the point that the CW: Microseries got completely dumped to make way for TCW as per Genndy's own words himself.

"It’s frustrating that they tried to erase it from being canon," he said. "At first, it was canon. And then once George started doing the CG version, he wanted to clean the slate. And so they de-canonised ours.

- Genndy Tartakovsky

So the Microseries doesn't fit, which means the entirety of the CWMM doesn't fit with TCW. It's a wholly separate Continuity and should be treated as such.

But let's look at more evidence hm? In the CW Microseries comics....5 months after the Battle of Geonosis, Anakin(still a Padawan) was with Obi-Wan on the planet Nivek.

The events in this story take place approximately 5 months after the Battle of Geonosis.

"At least now we know why they call Nivek the "Night Planet"

- Anakin, CW Adventures Vol 1

So let's move onto point 2.

2. The C-Canon Timeline is already complete

Kind of going off point 1, but this is basically why nothing in TCW(08) makes sense with anything prior 08 CW material. The timeline for C-Canon is already completed up to ROTS within the Microseries CW Anakin and Obi-Wan making their way back to Coruscant as Grievous was attacking it. Then adding in the various novels, games and so forth which compliment all of this into a completed timeline.

TCW(08) is basically a separate timeline within Legends, this makes sense since...well nothing seems to coincide with what is noted and new characters appearing or old ones changed or not appearing at all. The 08 series completely started a new slate with which to work off of...you could perhaps think of it like what Disney did to the post-ROTJ EU, where they wiped the slate clean to make the ST. People don't really seem to think about this a whole lot, but it'll save one a bunch of headaches with trying to all figure it out...like trying to mix and match a puzzle piece that just isn't going to work.

GL himself stated that he didn't pay much attention to the EU(he's stated at least twice) and given he was heavily involved....well of course he wouldn't follow what the EU already established because that wasn't his vision. It also makes sense as to why it's in a COMPLETELY separate bracket, otherwise why wouldn't it just be in C-Canon like...literally everything else?

It's clearly a separate timeline so Lucas doesn't destroy everything all those writers put into C-Canon.

=====

Now moving onto what I think is a fair compromise if you really want to treat TCW as Legends, honestly it really should just be Disney Canon at this point...but that's my opinion and I can work a compromise.

===

C-Canon(TCW Exception)

So C-Canon as we all know just basically stands for Continuity and that in a nutshell is basically something that is continued over a period of time. Now TCW can be used in C-Canon(TCW Exception), this however would be a bit more limited. If you folks notice that, various books and such are all revolved around TCW(this again another added point in that it's a separate timeline). Example those TCW comics or the novels such as TCW: Wild Space.

Now these can be used as a Continuity Canon for the TCW(08) show, that as far as I have seen can be fine because there isn't any huge glaring issues. Same with the Sourcebooks such as The Clone Wars Campaign Guide although for such as these, it would have to be used carefully using S-Canon IE: Ignore what isn't correct and vice versa. Example the Clone Assassins and Blaze Clone Troopers are in there, yet they make no appearance whatsoever in TCW, so they can't be used as any sort of debating point.

Some authors tried to shoe in some TCW stuff or otherwise in some Source or Guide book...but it just...really falls flat on its face and doesn't mesh well. Because again, the show starts a fresh slate of everything.

Oh here's a better way of looking at it. TCW is the foundation, much like the OT/PT for C-Canon EU where the supplement TCW material(novels, comics etc) can be used.

==========

So there it is folks, I've hoped I've explained it well enough, trying my best. But yeah, I just had this in the back of my mind and I figured it was finally time to put it forward here before I just lost interest or forgot about it.

I honestly blame Wookieepedia, they really frustrate me with all the misinformation and the like to confuse a lot of people. This is honestly not that hard to figure if you just stop and think about it.

Now this isn't to say one can't, I mean I certainly can't force anyone to do this. Just to me, I don't really understand the point of trying to put the two together when...to me it just doesn't add up at all in any capacity.

But if you folks can somehow rationalize all of it and fit it to make sense well...more power to you I guess.

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Wolfrazer

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deactivated-612156a4d7eca

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I'm just glad things are working again

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CuckedCurry

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#3  Edited By CuckedCurry

Fully, fully agree. Excellent work

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Eredin12

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#4  Edited By Eredin12  Online

Agreed, also Lucas has even said that EU is not his universe, but a parallel one, I just dont get when people try to use what he says and treat is as WoG for EU, when man himslef does not even intend that and it often makes no sense in EU

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Wolfrazer

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#5  Edited By Wolfrazer

@eredin12 said:

Agreed, also Lucas has even said that EU is not his universe, but a parallel one, I just dont get when people try to use what he says and treat is as WoG for EU, when man himslef does not even intend that and it often makes no sense in EU

I think it's more they use his word, because the various authors somewhat...'followed' his word. But not really, because the only thing I really recall them following was that the prime of the Jedi was the PT era.

But yeah, Lucas' word really would only apply to the movies themselves without anything added to it.

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Lord_Tenebrous

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#6  Edited By Lord_Tenebrous

You are exactly right. TCW was Lucas' creation, and his regard for the EU -- or, lack thereof -- is notorious. He wrote his own stories, without regard for what lesser writers had already laid out. Filoni following suit.

The Clone Wars Multi-Media project and accompanying lore pretty much mapped most of what occurred between Episodes II & III in the years before Lucas decided to make his own show.

Some more examples besides Durge, Ventress, Aurra, Maul, Ahsoka, Anakin and Grievous would be Savage Opress, A'Sharad Hett, Mother Talzin, Dooku's mindset toward Sidious, Sora Bulq, Quinlan Vos, Cad Bane, the battle of Hypori, how homogenous the Black Sun is, the battle of Kamino, Dooku's Dark Jedi acolytes, Mace's general personality, Mandalore, Dutchess Satine, and Barriss Offee.

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Lord_Tenebrous

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The EU was sent into a frenzy with the emergence of TCW, and bent over backwards to try and reconcile the two eras of writing. They even tried to squish the majority of all previous CW stories into the first few weeks of the Clone Wars.

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Wolfrazer

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@lord_tenebrous: Eh I didn't wanna make this too long, but yeah, there's a lot of differences.

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Lord_Tenebrous

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#9  Edited By Lord_Tenebrous

@wolfrazer said:

@lord_tenebrous: Eh I didn't wanna make this too long, but yeah, there's a lot of differences.

Ah, I almost forgot the Nightsister Clan's structuring, and Dathomir's landscape, overall appearance.

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Lord_Tenebrous

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And who could forget Moraband.

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Wolfrazer

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@lord_tenebrous: I really hate what TCW did to the Nightsisters....but I don't have to really worry, because it's a separate timeline. ;)

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deactivated-60fae469e992f

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And who could forget Moraband.

Moraband was called Korriban in databooks going back to just a few years ago. Its been explained as a changed name

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Lord_Tenebrous

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@lord_tenebrous: I really hate what TCW did to the Nightsisters....but I don't have to really worry, because it's a separate timeline. ;)

Pretty much.

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Wolfrazer

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Bump so more people can see and to get passed those spam threads.

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deactivated-63338e7709476

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Well, I pretty much disagree with all of this, but I'm too busy at the moment to parse through it. Appreciate the effort though.

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CuckedCurry

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@hellfireunit: you see, this is proper work, not your cheap Gethzerion shite 😎

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Wolfrazer

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Wolfrazer

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Well, I pretty much disagree with all of this, but I'm too busy at the moment to parse through it. Appreciate the effort though.

That's your prerogative, if you can somehow find to work it more power to you.

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LuminousHydra

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legends is garbage. TCW is the only thing that matters

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AnakinVader99

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@eredin12 said:

Agreed, also Lucas has even said that EU is not his universe, but a parallel one, I just dont get when people try to use what he says and treat is as WoG for EU, when man himslef does not even intend that and it often makes no sense in EU

Yet he oversaw it and is very aware of it and most of the EU has been approved by him. TCW was much more lose with Lucas' approval actually

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AnakinVader99

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You are exactly right. TCW was Lucas' creation, and his regard for the EU -- or, lack thereof -- is notorious. He wrote his own stories, without regard for what lesser writers had already laid out. Filoni following suit.

The Clone Wars Multi-Media project and accompanying lore pretty much mapped most of what occurred between Episodes II & III in the years before Lucas decided to make his own show.

Some more examples besides Durge, Ventress, Aurra, Maul, Ahsoka, Anakin and Grievous would be Savage Opress, A'Sharad Hett, Mother Talzin, Dooku's mindset toward Sidious, Sora Bulq, Quinlan Vos, Cad Bane, the battle of Hypori, how homogenous the Black Sun is, the battle of Kamino, Dooku's Dark Jedi acolytes, Mace's general personality, Mandalore, Dutchess Satine, and Barriss Offee.

1. Actually no Lucas mostly respected the old continuity most of the retcons were Filoni. Not to mention Lucas approved of the EU in many ways and actually oversaw it.

2. True though I have a lot of issues with the project specifically Anakin being knighted 6 months before ROTS

3. Again not Lucas

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AnakinVader99

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@eredin12 said:

Agreed, also Lucas has even said that EU is not his universe, but a parallel one, I just dont get when people try to use what he says and treat is as WoG for EU, when man himslef does not even intend that and it often makes no sense in EU

I think it's more they use his word, because the various authors somewhat...'followed' his word. But not really, because the only thing I really recall them following was that the prime of the Jedi was the PT era.

But yeah, Lucas' word really would only apply to the movies themselves without anything added to it.

Um no Lucas oversaw a ton of things in the continuity so...

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Wolfrazer

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@anakinvader99: Yeah I know he did, but he generally let the writers/authors/whoever, do what they want.

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deactivated-635a8f29e06c3

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@wolfrazer: TCW only works if its regarded as "S-canon", meaning somewhat/secondary canon. We know that some of the events in TCW still took place in the legends timeline e.g. Mortis arc

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AnakinVader99

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@anakinvader99: Yeah I know he did, but he generally let the writers/authors/whoever, do what they want.

Yes as long as it was approved by him as stated multiple times

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@wolfrazer:

So one couldn't scale 2003 General Grievous to the one that fought Maul in SoD for example?

Someone like Savage Opress doesn't really exist it legends either then?

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Wolfrazer

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#28  Edited By Wolfrazer

@kirkseven: No he can’t, what isn’t looked at is that the 03 Microseries CW is more than just...it, but it includes novels, games, comics and so on. This covered the entirety of the Clone Wars from 03-08.

Which I get that it’s easier to just stare at a TV screen than having to get all the other stuff, but that doesn’t mean it’s not there..

Savage technically exists in Legends yes, just not C-Canon continuity. He exists in T-Canon.

Look at it this way, there was literally no need to make an entirely separate bracket of Canon for TCW. Flioni and Lucas could have easily just stuck it into C-Canon and be done with it and now that would have overridden all the work that came prior.

But they didn’t, they created an entirely separate bracket and essentially created a whole other timeline in doing so, so that the previous works which already fleshed out the CW from 03 to ROTS is still intact.

Things make a lot more sense if you look at it like this, so you aren’t bending over backwards trying to make sense of everything.

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MErulezall

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@wolfrazer: Why did they ever swap out Durge for Cad bane? I like Cad bane personally, yet seemed like a unreasonable thing to do.

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Wolfrazer

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#30  Edited By Wolfrazer

@merulezall: They were going to put him in TCW, though being a human with just some armor and gadgets, but they went with Bane instead since they weren't gonna be able to replicate that whole shapeshifting thing he could do. Thankfully that didn't happen...though he's going to appear in the Aphra series....kinda of concerned...

But still he's just another huge reason why the 08 series doesn't mesh well with the rest of C-canon, it's just in its own bracket, so it's clearly separated.

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@wolfrazer said:

@merulezall: They were going to put him in TCW, though being a human with just some armor and gadgets, but they went with Bane instead since they weren't gonna be able to replicate that whole shapeshifting thing he could do.

I see, well I'm glad they didnt add him in because that's a very dumb choice to go about introducing Durge again.

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Wolfrazer

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@merulezall: Yeah...but now he's gonna appear in the Aphra series and that's concerning, but I guess we'll see what's what come June 30th.

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MErulezall

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@wolfrazer said:

@merulezall: Yeah...but now he's gonna appear in the Aphra series and that's concerning, but I guess we'll see what's what come June 30th.

Agreed. Thoughts on the Bad Batch btw for both TCW and their own show?

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Wolfrazer

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@merulezall: I'm not watching the BB. I've been really soured out of the New SW stuff honestly, so I'm not paying much attention to it.

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MErulezall

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@wolfrazer: Understandable, did you give mando a try or did you ditch that show to?

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Wolfrazer

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@merulezall: Haven't watched that either, even if something is reputed as good, I just...no, the stuff that has happened with SW now as a whole has just completely turned me off. It doesn't help that they turned one of my fav factions into a complete and utter joke.

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MErulezall

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@wolfrazer: What faction would that be, The Empire?

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Wolfrazer

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MErulezall

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@wolfrazer: Yeah.... Rebels did a great job in mocking the Empire and it's why I struggled to watch the show as I dont even think I made it past season 2.

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Wolfrazer

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#40  Edited By Wolfrazer

@merulezall: Which bled as I see into BB and other material. Not saying the previous Canon Empire was perfect, but they were still a legitimate threat and even eventually grew into being good guys......the worst of it I see in Canon, is the Empire surrendering a whole year after Endor. Sure....right...but this is going off the topic.

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MErulezall

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@wolfrazer: Canon ruined the Empire the second that battlefront 2 was suppose to be the Empire's take on the war. The trailers looked promising and fun as it'd be a new take. However, it didn't pay off as the plot and storyline fell flat almost instantly as soon as the main character changed sides. I understand your frustration, yet it shouldn't take away from what little good SW does have to offer though like the Mando.