Star Wars Fans: What Did You Think of The Last Jedi?

MAJOR SPOILERS (in the form of questions) FOR STAR WARS: THE LAST JEDIARE TO FOLLOW

Hi Star Wars fans! The Last Jedi has been a divisive movie for the Star Wars fandom. I’m just curious to see how you all felt about the movie. Please feel free to answer one or more (all if you’re feeling adventurous) of the questions regarding The Last Jedi.

1. How did you feel about the mystery surrounding Supreme Leader Snoke?

2. Did you feel like Luke was acting out of character in The Last Jedi?

3. How did you feel about Luke’s final sacrifice and the way he died?

4. How did you feel about the character of Rose Tico?

5. How did you feel about the Canto Bight sub-plot/adventure?

6. How did you feel about Vice Admiral Holdo’s hyperdrive plan?

7. How did you feel about the mystery of Rey’s parents being shrugged away?

8. How did you feel about the Porgs?

9. How did you feel about the humor in the film?

10. Did you feel like this movie brought back the nostalgia of Star Wars you may have had when you were younger?

11. Did you feel like Rey had a lack of character development in the Last Jedi? Do you feel like Rey is (still) a Mary Sue?

12. Did you feel like there was an overall lack of character development in the film?

Please feel free to respond with any other thoughts about the film I may have left out. I really want to see what everyone thought of it! Thank you guys, and May the Force be with you.

1. How did you feel about the mystery surrounding Supreme Leader Snoke?

It was destroyed once they just killed him off, and not say anything about where he came from, who he is, how he got so powerful, etc. Really hope he's not dead for good so we can get our answers in the next movie.

2. Did you feel like Luke was acting out of character in The Last Jedi?

Yes though kinda expect Luke to not be himself a bit after the whole temple burning down, Kylo turning to the darkside, and Kylo taking and killing some of his students. But I agree with Mark Hamill with Luke not just giving up. I was expecting for a much more better reason to why Luke hid himself from the galaxy, then just go on Ahch-To to not do anything.

3. How did you feel about Luke’s final sacrifice and the way he died?

He shouldn't have died.

4. How did you feel about the character of Rose Tico?

Her stopping Finn's sacrifice at the end.....

5. How did you feel about the Canto Bight sub-plot/adventure?

Didn't like it.

6. How did you feel about Vice Admiral Holdo’s hyperdrive plan?

I thought that was cool scene.

7. How did you feel about the mystery of Rey’s parents being shrugged away?

Eh, I'm okay with her being somebody from no one special in her bloodline.

8. How did you feel about the Porgs?

I would join Chewy in eating them.

9. How did you feel about the humor in the film?

A few scenes where funny, but meh.

10. Did you feel like this movie brought back the nostalgia of Star Wars you may have had when you were younger?

No not really.

11. Did you feel like Rey had a lack of character development in the Last Jedi? Do you feel like Rey is (still) a Mary Sue?

Needs to hook up with Kirito.

12. Did you feel like there was an overall lack of character development in the film?

Yes.

I think the movie was kind of mediocre. 6/10. The "Good guys" were just acting so stupid & The bad guys are equally as incompetent and that really dragged the film down. Then they had a whole sub-plot that was pointless. It dragged really bad at the beginning.

I don't really fault the movie for it, but Rey & Kylo doing their own thing would have definitely shocked me. I'd be curios where the story would go from there. It annoyed me Finn was so hellbent on getting his friend Rey back..then just kind of forgets about her because Rose.

I enjoyed TFA way more.

It was ... decent.

Again, there’s already like four or five threads about this.

Hated it

It was OK.

1) I still don’t really know anything about Snoke, so not really sure how I feel about it/him

2) From when we last seen in EP VI, yes.

3) Really liked it, thought it clever.

4) kinda of annoying

5) While it provides development and background for Rose, I didn’t care for it all that much.

6) That was Boss. She went out like a G.

7) I really like the path they took on Rey parentage. She’s a nobody coming up to do great things without any parental connection to the Force or anything like that. Happens in real life all the time and throughout history where people come from nothing and do great things.

8) They were cute, but other than that don’t care.

9) The beginning humor/quips with Huks and Poe was odd, but after that I can’t think of anything else that really bothered me

10) Just the stuff with Leia, Luke and Yoda. That’s about it.

11) Not sure what a “Mary Sue” is, this term is new to me....other than gaining some new Force abilities and coming to grips about her parents/background, there was really wasn’t all that much.

12) I’d say probably just with certain characters. I feel like Poe, Luke and Rey (to an extent) and Kylo got some development.

Overall...not best the STAR WARS film in the franchise, not even my personal favorite Episode, but a good movie with a bit of nostalgia, that takes things in a different direction that I enjoyed watching.

1. How did you feel about the mystery surrounding Supreme Leader Snoke?

I did not really care, but his resolution felt lacking.

2. Did you feel like Luke was acting out of character in The Last Jedi?

Yes, based on what information I had through the Episodes IV-VII. I did not read any books

3. How did you feel about Luke’s final sacrifice and the way he died?

It felt hollow and didn't affect me at all. My childhood fictional character was already a ghost, his death was a formality by the end.

4. How did you feel about the character of Rose Tico?

Pointless, obnoxious, and annoying. Her "saving" Finn was maybe the dumbest and most cringe inducing moment of 2017 in movies.

5. How did you feel about the Canto Bight sub-plot/adventure?

Boring, it was so boring my fitness tracker showed my heartbeat lowered to sleep levels (I was watching in the afternoon) for this part of the movie.

6. How did you feel about Vice Admiral Holdo’s hyperdrive plan?

It was a cool visual, but raises questions as to why this strategy is not more common.

7. How did you feel about the mystery of Rey’s parents being shrugged away?

Indifferent, it does make one wonder if they can just pull out force users from anywhere now or if she has anything distinct about her making her so powerful.

8. How did you feel about the Porgs?

They're fine, I neither love nor hate them. I get they exist more for kids anyways.

9. How did you feel about the humor in the film?

Did not feel like Star Wars, too forced and self aware. Poe's opening chatter was awkward and painful to sit through.

10. Did you feel like this movie brought back the nostalgia of Star Wars you may have had when you were younger?

No. It ended Star Wars for me. I'm tired of three films from my childhood getting me to sit through now five movies I didn't enjoy.

11. Did you feel like Rey had a lack of character development in the Last Jedi? Do you feel like Rey is (still) a Mary Sue?

She isn't particularly interesting to me and feels rushed. I don't know about semantics, but if there is no explanation how she can do so much so easily then it just feels like lazy writing if any limitation or suspense can be waved away by Rey being awesome.

12. Did you feel like there was an overall lack of character development in the film?

I didn't get invested with any characters and found their arcs to be circular or pointless. This comes down to the structure of no time skip from Force Awakens and making Last Jedi all take place within a week.

@phantomocelot:

1. I understand. I thought it was somewhat disappointing as well, but then I remember that before the prequels, The Emperor held the same kind of status and didn’t get too much development. Did you find yourself comparing Snoke to The Emperor?

2. I see where you’re coming from. Luke messed up big time, and I was able to accept why he went into exile. I think his failure was so much bigger than just Kylo turning to the Dark Side and his other students being killed. He basically lost another rare chance to bring back the Jedi Order and his actions brought the Dark Side largely back to the galaxy. I think what’s interesting about this topic is that people often forget that Luke was about to turn to the Dark Side at the end of ROTJ. He was SO close to doing so. I also think his mistakes in the film fit very well into a meta-narrative to tell the audience: that we will never truly become perfect and overcome our weaknesses.

3. I thought this was a perfect way for him to go out. He performed an incredibly difficult Force feat and showed us that not every battle is won with violence. When do you would’ve been the best time for him to die?

4. I thought that moment was great character development and once again fit well into another lesson the film was trying to teach us: that anyone, no matter where they come from, has the potential to become a hero. Rose basically started off as a fangirl of Finn, adoring him as a war hero. But then she learns to be brave and courageous by saving Finn. What exactly do you mean by that gif?

5. I thought that was so awesome. It once again fits into the film’s narrative about failure, and how even if our plans don’t go right, there is always another way. I also LOVED how it came back in the end with the slave children being inspired by Rose and Finn. Hopefully we’ll see those kids in Episode 9!

6. Me too! :D

7. Yeah, me too! I think it’s awesome how they’re once again encouraging the idea of a hero being inside all of us. :)

8. LOL, I feel. He made them look so tasty XD. I thought they were cute and actually not as annoying as I initially they would have been. By saying that you’d join in eating them, does that mean you didn’t like them?

9. I agree with you. The humor was lacking. I thought the funniest scene was Rey telling Kylo to put a shirt on hahaha.

10. That’s understandable. Our mindsets change as adults, and consequently, our outlook on media. What do you think could have made the movie bring back your nostalgia? I thought the Porg and Yoda puppets were nice nods to the older fans.

11. Hahahaha by that do you mean that you think she is as much of a Mary Sue as Kirito? Why do you think that? I think she’s not as much of a Mary Sue as people say she is. People have been shown to use the Force without training before. Even Luke did! When he retrieved his lightsaber on Hoth, he didn’t even know you could use telekinesis with the Force! To me, that seems pretty Mary Sue-ish. As well as him never flying an X-Wing before and landing the impossibly hard shot to take down the Death Star. Those are just a few examples lol.

12. Interesting. What characters, and why do you think that?

@nerdattack:

1. How did you feel about the mystery surrounding Supreme Leader Snoke?

Yoooo I liked Kylo Ren in this movie SO much too!! He was passionate and such a bad ass. I think a lot of his badassery comes from the fact that he killed Snoke. It showed that he was brave and strong enough to earn his well-deserved title of Supreme Leader. Why do you think his character was wasted? What do you think could’ve to make his less of a waste?

2. Did you feel like Luke was acting out of character in The Last Jedi?

I think those points you made about Luke’s previously established character are excellent. He did indeed struggle with the Dark Side, but I think the point they were trying to make in this movie is that he never completely overcame his struggles with the Dark Side…and that’s ok. It teaches us that we will never completely overcome our personal struggles and that we are met with challenges every day. On the other hand, we have to remember that Luke has another major character flaw: that he acts on his instincts. For example, when he was about to kill Vader and the Emperor. As we see in TLJ, him igniting his lightsaber to kill Ben was an act of instinct, but he tells Rey how it was over in an instant. Luke isn’t a bad person, and he never actually gave up hope. He came back to save the Resistance in the end! :D

3. How did you feel about Luke’s final sacrifice and the way he died?

Yeah the scene with him dying in front of the twin suns was quite awesome. It totally went full circle by bringing him back to where he started and showing how far Luke has come. What about the setup did you think was stupid? I thought it was awesome how he had a change of heart and ended up saving the Resistance with an INCREDIBLE Force feat. Him projecting his image across the galaxy for that long showed us just how powerful Luke really was!

4. How did you feel about the character of Rose Tico?

That’s nice that you liked Jar Jar as a kid! I thought Rose was awesome because she represents the film’s narrative about how anyone can become a hero.How was Rose terrible and a waste of screen time? Rose basically started off as a fangirl of Finn, adoring him as a war hero, but then she learns to be brave and courageous by saving him. How did she ruin Finn? I thought she helped his character development greatly by teaching him not to run anymore.

5. How did you feel about the Canto Bight sub-plot/adventure?

I’m glad you didn’t dislike like it as much as other people! I thought it was cool how Rose and Finn inspired the slave kids and gave them hope in the end. The fact that they inspired more people to join the Resistance/Rebellion made that adventure all worth it :). I thought it was cool how it fits into the film’s narrative about failure, and how even if our plans don’t go right, there is always another way.

6. How did you feel about Vice Admiral Holdo’s hyperdrive plan?

That’s a very interesting viewpoint that it should’ve been Leia’s sacrifice. I’ve never heard that before! What kind of plot holes do you think it created? I think it was cool how throughout the other movies they talk about how dangerous hyperdrive is, and then they show just how devastating it can actually be! I don’t really think this created any plot holes, but it actually built on the lore!

7. How did you feel about the mystery of Rey’s parents being shrugged away?

I actually kind of agree with you on this point. That yeah, they could’ve told us in a better way that she doesn’t come from any special bloodline. But yeah I like how they’re once again telling the theme about anyone being able to become a hero!

8. How did you feel about the Porgs?

I see. I loved the Porgs, and I agree with you that their timing was totally on point!

9. How did you feel about the humor in the film?

I actually agree with you once again on this point. I thought the humor was probably one of the movie’s weakest qualities. I thought the funniest scene was Rey telling Kylo to put a shirt on lol.

10. Did you feel like this movie brought back the nostalgia of Star Wars you may have had when you were younger?

That’s understandable. Our mindsets change as adults, and consequently, our outlook on media. That’s nice that you liked the practical effects! I thought the Porg and Yoda puppets were nice nods to the older fans.

11. Did you feel like Rey had a lack of character development in the Last Jedi? Do you feel like Rey is (still) a Mary Sue?

I think she’s not as much of a Mary Sue as people say she is. People have been shown to use the Force without training before. Even Luke did! When he retrieved his lightsaber on Hoth, he didn’t even know you could use telekinesis with the Force! To me, that seems pretty Mary Sue-ish. As well as him never flying an X-Wing before and landing the impossibly hard shot to take down the Death Star. Those are just a few examples lol.

12. Did you feel like there was an overall lack of character development in the film?

Interesting. What characters, and why do you think that? Given how big of a fan of Star Wars you must be based on your elaborate responses, I feel like you actually do care about the development of the characters. I thought the development was awesome! Rey learns more about the Force and learns to resist Kylo’s Ren temptation, Finn learns to stop running, Poe learns that not all problems are solved by violence, and Kylo Ren learns to stand up for himself, let the past die, and take his rightful place as Supreme Leader.

Additional thoughts:

I totally agree! I thought the cinematography and effects were wonderful, and it’s a blast to watch! How is it a TERRIBLE Star Wars film though? What exactly constitutes a “TERRIBLE Star Wars film”? I think TLJ adds more dimension, depth, and complexity to the SW lore. One of the major examples being that anyone can become a Jedi, and that one doesn’t need to be tied to a bloodline. By teaching themes of overcoming our failures, letting go of the past, and discovering the hero inside all of us, it definitely is the most narratively complex SW movie.

1. How did you feel about the mystery surrounding Supreme Leader Snoke?

I was one of the ones who was extremely intrigued by him in TFA, there was so many questions surrounding him: Where did he come from? Why is he so powerful? Is he a Sith? WHO IS HE? Etc, etc, etc. My point is that none of these questions were answered, and he could've been a greater villain than even Sidious in my opinion.

I guess Snoke’s perceived importance to the story was pretty subjective. All your questions about him: “Where did he come from? Why is he so powerful? Is he a Sith? WHO IS HE?” are interesting questions. I for one, thought Snoke was not being set up to be the big baddie of this trilogy.

In Episode VII, Snoke was shown to be extremely decrepit and old in the holograms. To me, that did not symbolize much power, although he was very strong with the Dark Side. Sure, Sidious was also old in VI, but the guy could walk pretty well. Snoke on the other hand, was physically weak, even compared to Sidious. There’s no doubt that Snoke was extremely powerful with the Dark Side of the Force, maybe even more so than Sidious.

Your thoughts about comparing him to Sidious are a tad confusing because you don’t specify whether or not you are comparing Sidious to Snoke just based on what we learned about him from Episode VI, or if you are comparing Sidious to Snoke based on all that we learned about Sidious from the prequels.

If you’re comparing Sidious to Snoke just based on his appearance in Episode VI, then I actually disagree that Sidious was a better villain than Snoke. Even though we learned little about Snoke, he was shown to have incredible Force abilities like linking Rey and Kylo Ren telepathically, and mentally torturing Rey. He was also shown to be a master manipulator and strategist, while Sidious was just shown to be a master of temptation that could shoot lightning.

But the truth of the matter is that Snoke was set up to be overthrown by Kylo Ren, kind of like how Vader defeated Sidious. Snoke’s enormous ego and overconfidence were his downfalls, just like Sidious. Except that by making this happen in the Second Act, they changed up the story in a wonderful and exciting new way – the apprentice (Kylo Ren) takes the First Order all for himself. Even if Snoke did survive, I think he wouldn’t have come to be a better villain than Sidious. I say this because I am comparing Snoke to Sidious’s entire history (prequels + original trilogy).

2. Did you feel like Luke was acting out of character in The Last Jedi?

I like your thoughts, however I do not necessarily agree with them. "It teaches us that we will never completely overcome our personal struggles and that we are met with challenges every day." I personally think that is a terrible lesson, especially given from a beloved hero such as Luke Skywalker. His original lesson was essentially "Don't give in to the temptations of evil, because good will always triumph... there is always hope." Luke Skywalker symbolizes "Hope" and I just cannot accept that the character we knew in the OT is the same in TLJ. Yes, a flaw is that he acts on instincts... but that shouldn't overpower his greatest attribute. And then, after all that he ran off and moped on an island where little nuns do his laundry for him... that's not Luke.

I see where you’re coming from, and that’s fine if you disagree with my thoughts about that theme in TLJ. But you’re looking at Luke through a black-and-white lens. Expecting someone to be a perfect symbol of an ideal like “hope” is flawed because no one is actually perfect. In fact, TLJ touched on that very issue by telling Luke’s side of the story of why he almost killed Ben: that there was so much pressure for him to be a legend, a perfect person, that it all eventually came crashing down on him. Because he saw the evil growing inside of Ben Solo, he felt like he had to live up to the rest of the galaxy’s expectations by preventing the Dark Side from taking over again.

I think what you’re saying about him being a symbol of hope is actually portrayed very well in the movie, despite the fact that he was far from a perfect ideal of hope. The fact that he came back to help in the end reminded us of why we love Luke. That even though he went through a rough patch in his life, he still had hope inside of him – he never gave it up. In fact, his noble sacrifice eternalized him as a legend. We see that the slave kids on Canto Bight were inspired by Luke Skywalker because he stood down an army. Now at least one of those kids has been inspired by the Rebellion.

3. How did you feel about Luke’s final sacrifice and the way he died?

The way they showed him in the movie where he left for (I think) a decade and hid away, not helping at all, then very easily, he is persuaded to help... O.K.

The death can be interpreted: as him dying from exhaustion which shouldn't be something even remotely tied to Luke Skywalker's death. I think his death is actually the most disappointing thing for me from all the movies including prequels. I honestly don't want to think about it, to add to this argument.

It was actually very hard for Rey to convince Luke to come back and help. She followed him around without him even paying attention to her and she had to constantly pep talk him into training her. Only after begging Luke to help and then finally (if I remember correctly) reminding him of just how much of a hero he is does Luke finally decide to help.

As for Luke’s final Force feat, think about it this way: it was like someone running a marathon without training for one. That person would be exhausted and on the verge of death. The fact that Luke was even able to project himself across the galaxy without having used the Force in years really demonstrates just how powerful he was with The Force. Even for a Skywalker, that is a tremendous amount of strain.

Did you not think his final moment in front of the twin suns was beautiful? It was a direct callback to when we first met him – his story came full circle to when we met him in Episode IV.

4. How did you feel about the character of Rose Tico?

At the beginning she was an annoying fan-girl. In the middle she was a plug of Social Justice into Star Wars. At the end she took away Finn's heroic sacrifice which he was doing out of love for the resistance, not hatred for the First Order. Not to mention the terrible kiss, THERE WAS NO PREVIOUS CHEMISTRY BETWEEN THEM! AWKWARD! Then, they are over by the enemy lines, and.... no one shoots them.... they just... go back to the base.... ummmm... what? She was also just terrible at acting. Finn's character was changed in this movie. He was one of my favorite things from TFA, but then they took away all his fun traits and replaced it with bland trash.

Ok sure she could have come across as annoying in the beginning, but it’s the fact that she starts becomes a hero herself later by going on the mission to Canto Bight that she starts to disprove herself as an “annoying fan-girl’. Regardless of what you think about the Canto Bight subplot, the fact that she potentially risked her life to help the Resistance shows that she grows as a character.

As for being “a plug for Social Justice”, was it the comments about the weapons manufacturing that made you think this? If so, that’s kind of a futile argument you’re making about Star Wars because the entire original story is about the rich and powerful Empire oppressing the poor and helpless rest of the galaxy lol. I mean the Empire had the Death Star, and the First Order had Starkiller Base. Given that the goals of the Empire/First Order revolve around military prowess, doesn’t it make sense that they’d be willing to pay top dollar for weapons? You seem to be making this a political issue when it’s really not.

What made you think there was no chemistry between Finn and Rose before? They were put in prison together and had to escape a planet together. I’m pretty sure that constitutes some kind of bonding and having to see the best in each other.

5. How did you feel about the Canto Bight sub-plot/adventure?

I think it had no place In the film... I just don't despise it. It was not subtle at all in the messages of rich people controlling everything... also It says providing weapons to the first order is the only way to be THAT rich? What? Not the dudes that make technology? Droids? Etc. Also, those horse things are going to be recaptured very quickly... and they barely messed with everything... since everyone is super rich, they should be able to replace everything broken easily.

Well, I mean if you look at the real world, the weapons business is one of the most profitable businesses in the world lol. You’re saying that “the dudes that make technology” can be rich? Again, look at the real world. Do you think the factory workers in China assembling iPhones are making top dollar? No. Is it the engineers of Apple and Microsoft that get the most credit? No. It’s Steve Jobs and Bill Gates that get the credit. The Canto Bight scene was trying to portray the idea that it’s the businessmen and the corporations of the world that are profiting off death and destruction. I’m not saying this is what I think, but this is probably what the filmmakers of TLJ think. It’s supposed to reflect how filmmakers interpret the world. And if you don’t agree with it, well…sorry I guess? Again, I don’t want to make this a political argument, I’m just trying to interpret what the filmmakers were trying to say in this scene.

Also I don’t really understand what you’re trying to say about the horse creatures…

I think what was awesome about Canto Bight was how they came full circle with it at the end of the film. The kids were inspired Rose and Finn and they now have hope for a better life because Rose and Finn showed them what happens when you never give up, even if the odds are stacked against you.

6. How did you feel about Vice Admiral Holdo’s hyperdrive plan?

It created plot holes in that: this is clearly an extremely powerful weapon... why hasn't this been used at all previously? There's more, but I'm tired and there not that important, more like lore nitpicks.

It wasn’t used previously because it’s extremely dangerous to use hyperdive in close proximity to other things (as we saw in the film). The scene in which hyperdrive was used was unlike any other battle scenario we’d seen in Star Wars thus far. It was one ship up against an entire fleet, with the rest of the Resistance ships out of proximity. It was probably never used before because using it would potentially destroy your own allies. the In the Original Trilogy, Han Solo even talked about how dangerous hyperdrive can be.

8. How did you feel about the Porgs?

Could of done with a little less CGI though.

I see. They had Porg puppets, though. Did you like those?

11. Did you feel like Rey had a lack of character development in the Last Jedi? Do you feel like Rey is (still) a Mary Sue?

"I think she’s not as much of a Mary Sue as people say she is. People have been shown to use the Force without training before. (Who?) Even Luke did! When he retrieved his lightsaber on Hoth, he didn’t even know you could use telekinesis with the Force! (It can be implied he had some level of knowledge from Obi-Wan. Also, that is much more simple than what Rey is seen doing.) To me, that seems pretty Mary Sue-ish. As well as him never flying an X-Wing before and landing the impossibly hard shot to take down the Death Star. (He hasn't flown an X-Wing before, but he has lots of experience in flying. Also, he is the son of the best pilot in Galactic history. That shot was also an exception because that was a "lose or win" thing. How Rey uses it is usually less serious and more of a gimmick.) Those are just a few examples lol." (Rey's Mary Sueness also comes from her personality and character. She has no flaws in her character. Luke has many, like you noted before. She briefly had the "I have to wait on Jakku" but that wasn't important to her character or the plot or story in any way.)

Some other characters who have used the Force without training are Ezra Bridger in Rebels (S1E1) when he does a Force Push and (supposedly without training) Leia in TLJ. You can’t assume that Obi-Wan taught Luke anything about the Force. When do you think it was implied? Before Luke started flying an X-Wing, we see no indication of him flying either. He was a farm boy. He may have driven speeders on Tatooine, but they are completely different from X-Wings. Also, what makes you think piloting skills are inherited? It’s a learned skill. You could be the “son of the best pilot in Galactic history”, but if you’ve never actually learned how to fly a starship, how can you land a near-impossible shot like that? Also what do you mean by “‘a lose or win’ thing”? Like it was life or death? That would have only made Luke even more nervous. But that’s all kind of beside the point.

I think what you’re missing about Rey is the fact that she has an internal conflict. She spent her whole life on Jakku doing nothing and then has this call to adventure and has to continually overcome her self-doubt about being a person of value. She even sees in the vision of Anakin’s lightsaber this call to adventure, but she keeps questioning herself. When Kylo Ren tells her about her parents, it prompts her to grow because she realizes that she can make her own path, no matter where she comes from.

12. Did you feel like there was an overall lack of character development in the film?

"Rey learns more about the Force and learns to resist Kylo’s Ren temptation (Her learning the force isn't character development, because it didn't change her character in any way, just added to her skills), Finn learns to stop running (He already learned that in the last movie), Poe learns that not all problems are solved by violence (This was a non existent problem in TFA and made him look like an idiot in this movie. He actually didn't really learn at all by the end either.), and Kylo Ren learns to stand up for himself (I mean... sure... but that's pretty lame), let the past die (Why did he need to let the past die?), and take his rightful place as Supreme Leader (He's an angsty young boy who needs more training, not the rightful heir to the First Order throne. It seems like theyre mocking their own franchise.) ."

Why is it lame that Kylo Ren learns to stand up for himself? That’s something we all deal with as people, and it makes his struggle relatable. He needed to let the past die because he decided that he couldn’t be like Vader anymore. He came to the conclusion that he couldn’t be a slave to Snkoe like Vader was to Sidious, and Kylo smashing his helmet and killing Snoke are representative of his growth as a character. He goes from being a servant of the Snoke and the First Order to becoming in charge of it all. He was able to pull that all off which comes to show that he’s definitely grown.

Additional Thoughts:

"What exactly constitutes a “TERRIBLE Star Wars film”? (one that ruins previously adored things in Star Wars ie. Luke, the Force, etc.)I think TLJ adds more dimension, depth, and complexity to the SW lore . One of the major examples being that anyone can become a Jedi, and that one doesn’t need to be tied to a bloodline (We already saw that in the prequels... their were plenty of Jedi.). By teaching themes of overcoming our failures, letting go of the past, and discovering the hero inside all of us, it definitely is the most narratively complex SW movie." (Except all the themes were blatantly shoved in our face. A good theme is something subtle which youre understanding subconsciously and without analysis, you don't realize at all. Any moron can figure out the themes in this movie... just like how any moron can figure out the themes in a childrens book, that doesn't make it complex.)

This is the first time I'm not excited for the next Star Wars movie to come out.... I'm worried.

We may have seen that there were other people that didn’t have ties to bloodlines in the prequels, but what’s cool about Rey is that she’s pretty much a nobody on a desert planet that is becoming the next greatest hero of the Resistance. It sounds similar to Luke’s story, but it puts an even greater twist on it because she wasn’t related to some galactic hero. Again, this new trilogy is telling us that anyone, no matter where they come from, or who they’re related to, can be a great hero.

As for “all the themes [being] blatantly shoved in our face” you have to think about the audience of SW. This is both the beauty and tragedy of the SW movies, but the audience is everyone. Even though you may think it, not everyone can pick up on the subtle themes that are present in movies like you or me. That’s why they needed to be more blatant than subtle. The SW movies are especially trying to get through to kids, who most likely don’t have the critical and analytical skills that you and I have. So you’re comparison of the SW movies to a children’s book is actually quite accurate, because guess what? The main audience of Star Wars, who is owned by Disney, is kids.

The whole movie was terrible.

It was great but if J.J Abrams would have did it I think they would have made Luke and Rey canon related. Which would have kept the whole Skywalker Family Tree going and Rian Johnson basically destroyed that tree. But with side movies like Rogue One and Solo the fans seem to be comfortable with the fact that Star Wars doesn't necessarily have to involve a Skywalker as it has been in the traditional past movies.

Nice to see some civil debate, not some idiotic Last Jedi haters with their dogmatic "this movie was garbage and if you don't agree with me your a moron" type of statements full of gramatical errors.

1. How did you feel about the mystery surrounding Supreme Leader Snoke?

Well, I was expecting his backstory to be explained, but it wasn't, which was a shocker for everyone, pretty much. However, they never said his backstory would be explained. Us fans were the ones that assumed everything even after Andy Serkis clearly stated that Snoke was a new character. And our brash assumptions came back to bite us in the butt. I'm almost sure that they'll make another movie or series diving into his backstory, much like they did with Palpatine in the prequels- we must remember that older Star Wars fans had to wait twenty-two years to get a full backstory on their big baddie.

2. Did you feel like Luke was acting out of character in The Last Jedi?

Yes and no. It's very different from Luke's character in ANH and ESB, and while not so different from RotJ Luke, still has lots of differences. Luke has changed. He's gone from reckless boy to upholding Knight to pacifist Master. Luke in the new movie was criticized for not wanting to fight. People have called him a coward. However, there is a difference between cowardice and knowing when to stop fighting. Luke would have been utterly annihilated by Snoke's army had he stayed out in the open. However, he eluded capture/death and was crucial to keeping the war effort alive in the end.

3. How did you feel about Luke’s final sacrifice and the way he died?

I think it was the perfect send-off to the character. Many people say it was bad solely due to the fact their childhood hero Luke died, but it was perfectly in sync with Luke's character in Rotj and TLJ- saving the Rebels without spilling a drop of blood. Instead of going out there and fighting, Luke managed to save the rebels without any fighting, which is Luke's way- doing everything with pacifism. It rhymes with Luke's end action in RotJ, where he throws his lightsaber aside and orchestrates Palpatine's ultimate downfall without having to fight anyone or anything.

4. How did you feel about the character of Rose Tico?

Useless side character that could easily have been avoided, but of course, a Disney movie has to have the annoying little side kick despite her having no character development and no chemistry with Finn. Her dumb idea of stopping Finn's sacrifice- which would have meant the end of the Resistance if Luke had not bought them enough time to escape- was incredibly irksome.

5. How did you feel about the Canto Bight sub-plot/adventure?

Very good in visual terms (the whole movie was a visual masterpiece) but it was way too long. I understand them trying to find this guy who can sneak them into Snoke's ship, and trying to elude the security, but all that animal saving part... really... it's just filler. I'd rather have a bit more of Luke training Rey, Snoke's backstory, or nothing at all because the movie was incredibly long.

6. How did you feel about Vice Admiral Holdo’s hyperdrive plan?

The only thing to do in that situation, and it crippled the First Order's already laughable fleet. However, it's pathetic that such a small ship could not only split the Supremacy in half but the handful of normal Star Destroyers flanking. It was excellent for the Resistance- one flagship and one Admiral sacrificed to split six Star Destroyers in half- but it could have been handled a little better.

7. How did you feel about the mystery of Rey’s parents being shrugged away?

Much like with Snoke, we fans assumed a lot of stuff. JJ Abrams clearly stated that her parents were not in Episode 7 and yet the theory that Luke was her father still survived. Now, we see that her parents are irrelevant. And they are, because Rey is, essentially, the new "Chosen One" type of Force user. Darkness rises and light to meet it, said Snoke. At first, he assumed it was Luke, but then found out it was Rey. The Force knew the Dark was about to seize control of things again so it empowered Rey, an innocent child living a miserable life in a desolate planet (much like Anakin) in order to fight the Dark. Something tells me, however, that Kylo was lying, so we might have another twist yet.

8. How did you feel about the Porgs?

I actually liked them because I was expecting them to be super annoying while in fact they were not annoying at all. They interfered in no way, shape or form in the movie, and they were important for Chewie because his scene with the Porgs was the only scene in which he appeared for 20+ seconds straight.

9. How did you feel about the humor in the film?

Acceptable, but not very much Star Wars type- I prefer those prequel-like sentences that generate tons of memes than this completely forced and while funny, quite unnecessary humor that doesn't add anything to the movie whatsoever- in Disney's logic it does because the kids are gonna laugh at it, and Disney's movies are generally directed towards kids.

10. Did you feel like this movie brought back the nostalgia of Star Wars you may have had when you were younger?

No. This movie was very different from other Star Wars movies- in fact, I think this is why it's so divisive. Some people that say it has poor character development and plot are just using that to justify change, which is new and thus scary to many fans who were used to OT and PT and older Star Wars materials. The fact that the lore is changing was subtly hinted at in the movie with Kylo's "let the past die, kill it if you have to". Of course, some OT supremacists will forever be stuck in the past.

11. Did you feel like Rey had a lack of character development in the Last Jedi? Do you feel like Rey is (still) a Mary Sue?

They could have dived into her character more, and I think she's bland- but then again, ANH/ESB Luke was equally bland and uninteresting. Most protagonists tend to be. "Goodness" and "courage" are valued above an actually interesting personality that captivates people- that's why I have always preferred villains and why my top 3 of favorite SW characters is 100% composed of villains.

12. Did you feel like there was an overall lack of character development in the film?

Overall? Not really. I loved Snoke's character despite his lackluster death and lack of backstory- his lines were just perfect and bone-chilling. Luke actually interested me for once, and I can't say the same about the OT- well, the end of RotJ being an exception to the rule. Leia has taken a turn for the worse. She's no longer the badass that I liked in the OT- she's frail and old, but then again that's perfectly acceptable considering all she went through. Yes, she went through a lot in the OT but she didn't lose her son and husband in those movies. And older age makes you weaker as well. Rose is useless, Finn is average, Poe is OK, Phasma was wasted, Hux is pathetic, and the one thing I have to point out: Kylo. From whiny crybaby to determined, cold Supreme Leader in a matter of one in-universe month at best. Kylo is one of if not the best thing about this movie, and how expertly Rian Johnson handled him is quite a surprise to me. Of course, he kinda slacked off at the end when his anger took control of him, but he's a thoroughly enjoyable villain in the throne room scene- Snoke's death, Praetorian fight.

I overall liked the movie and, as people grow accustomed to change, it will be less divisive and for the better.

@thespartanb345t did a great analysis on the problems, its in the locked sw thread

Say no more.

Like I said, I have this copy and pasted for whenever people ask about the movie/say it was even remotely decent in quality. I wrote this right after I got out of the theater, so I was really mad when I did write it.

I'm sure that you've heard this already, but honestly, this movie sucks. If you are a Star Wars fan or not, it still sucks. Spoilers.

First off, there are SO MANY PLOT HOLES. To start off, why does the First Order immediately go from destroying a few planets to OWNING THE ENTIRE GALAXY?! Their whole base was on one planet, and that planet was destroyed. It doesn't make sense.

Why is the Republic so weak? They call themselves the rebels in the film, but THEY SHOULD BE OWNING THE GALAXY! Then it comes down to the 9 or so rebels left on that one planet... how convenient that the last ship had the main characters on it.

Why did the First Order chase them at all? If small ships can go through the shields, why not send 500 tie fighters? Those 3 were very effective, but THEY GAVE UP AFTERWARDS?

If the First Order now owns the galaxy, WHY IS THERE ENTIRE FLEET SO SMALL?! If they know where the ship is, why not simply have 10 others jump to their location?

Or, better yet, why didn't they jump out of hyperspace and THEN JUMP BACK RIGHT IN FRONT OF THE REBEL FLEET?!

Why didn't the Dreadnought tilt its bow a bit to crush the bombers, or Poe, before they attacked, or even while they attacked?

Why can one bomber destroy AN ENTIRE DREADNOUGHT but when the ships are shot, the explosions were self-contained? Wouldn't that cause a HUGE explosion?

Onto the characters. Luke Skywalker is a whiny little coward in this movie. He doesn't want to leave his island? He doesn't want anyone to find him, BUT HE MADE A MAP THAT TELLS THEM WHERE HE IS! WHAT?! The same Luke that went on a suicide mission onto the DEATH STAR TO SAVE DARTH VADER, one of the evilest men in the galaxy, just because he was family and saw some light in him, WANTED TO KILL HIS NEPHEW BECAUSE HE SAW THAT HE HAD DARK SIDE THOUGHTS?! Didn't Yoda already tell Luke not to be rash and not act off instinct?!?!

The Leia scene was one of the WORST scenes in cinema history. Abysmally terrible. She should be dead, by all means. The explosion itself should have killed her. The oxygen is immediately gone from her body so her brain would shut down in 15 or so seconds. She'd begin to freeze, and she'd EXPLODE from the pressure of oxygen in her lungs if she had any. Then Leia, who has never been shown to do ANYTHING force-related, proceeds to do one of the most complex force actions that we've never seen.

The Bootleg-Hoth battle was terrible. It wanted to be Hoth so bad but lacked everything Hoth did. The rebellion STILL hid like a bunch of cowards, and there wasn't real action. The snowspeeders did nothing at all, except get exploded. Finn was about to sacrifice himself in a meaningful way, but he didn't because that annoying Asian girl knocks him out the way AND COULD HAVE KILLED EVERYONE ON THAT BASE AS A RESULT. Then Luke appears, but he's not there, and it is so obvious because of his lightsaber. Why didn't Ren notice this? They were about to give Luke a good scene, tanking the At-At blasts, and dodging Kylo, but he can't fight them because he's not there! What a cheap move. They even set up his arrival by showing his X-Wing, but apparently, this movie can't have good moments. Then HE DIES. Why? Because of screw Star Wars fans! He could have died a MEANINGFUL DEATH BY ACTUALLY BEING THERE. Why even project yourself if you died in the process anyway? That defeats the purpose of projection.

Snoke was a good villain. He was powerful, intimidating (despite that ridiculous gold robe) and he treated Rey and Kylo like kids. He linked the two, could effortlessly read their minds, but COULDN'T SEE THE LIGHTSABER NEXT TO HIM? They trashed the one good thing about the movie.

Phasma dies in the worst way. She had a rifle to shoot Finn with, BUT DIDN'T?! SHE THOUGHT INSTANT DECAPITATION WAS MORE PAINFUL, SO SHE CHOSE THAT? AND THEN SHE LOSES TO FINN VIA A SUCKER PUNCH. She fought with her staff, but she had a blaster... AND BB8 WAS RIDICULOUS IN THAT AT-ST.

Meanwhile, the purple haired lady is not letting Poe in on her plan because... tension. Why didn't she tell Poe, ESPECIALLY WENT SHE WAS CAPTURED! OF COURSE, HE'D MUTINY IF YOU DIDN'T SAY THE PLAN!

Why did she have to stay? Isn't their autopilot? A droid? Either way, I'm happy she died.

Why didn't they have an X-Wing cut the ship in half the first time via hyperspace? So dumb.

And Rey is still a Mary-Sue, of course. She got no training, only a definition of the force. Then she goes to lift some rocks, BUT SHE DIDN'T EARN IT!

This entire movie is so uncertain. Tell me, what decision did the director make? Leia almost dies, but she doesn't! It almost has Finn sacrificing himself, but it doesn't! It almost had a lightsaber duel, but it was against guards, so not really. Luke almost was a good character, but he wasn't really there. Poe almost did mutiny, but didn't. Snoke almost was a good villain, but he wasn't. Luke almost got killed, but he didn't because he wasn't there. Oh, wait! He still dies!

@nerdattack:

1. How did you feel about the mystery surrounding Supreme Leader Snoke?

I was one of the ones who was extremely intrigued by him in TFA, there was so many questions surrounding him: Where did he come from? Why is he so powerful? Is he a Sith? WHO IS HE? Etc, etc, etc. My point is that none of these questions were answered, and he could've been a greater villain than even Sidious in my opinion.

I guess Snoke’s perceived importance to the story was pretty subjective. All your questions about him: “Where did he come from? Why is he so powerful? Is he a Sith? WHO IS HE?” are interesting questions. I for one, thought Snoke was not being set up to be the big baddie of this trilogy.

In Episode VII, Snoke was shown to be extremely decrepit and old in the holograms. To me, that did not symbolize much power, although he was very strong with the Dark Side. Sure, Sidious was also old in VI, but the guy could walk pretty well. Snoke on the other hand, was physically weak, even compared to Sidious. There’s no doubt that Snoke was extremely powerful with the Dark Side of the Force, maybe even more so than Sidious.

Your thoughts about comparing him to Sidious are a tad confusing because you don’t specify whether or not you are comparing Sidious to Snoke just based on what we learned about him from Episode VI, or if you are comparing Sidious to Snoke based on all that we learned about Sidious from the prequels.

If you’re comparing Sidious to Snoke just based on his appearance in Episode VI, then I actually disagree that Sidious was a better villain than Snoke. Even though we learned little about Snoke, he was shown to have incredible Force abilities like linking Rey and Kylo Ren telepathically, and mentally torturing Rey. He was also shown to be a master manipulator and strategist, while Sidious was just shown to be a master of temptation that could shoot lightning.

But the truth of the matter is that Snoke was set up to be overthrown by Kylo Ren, kind of like how Vader defeated Sidious. Snoke’s enormous ego and overconfidence were his downfalls, just like Sidious. Except that by making this happen in the Second Act, they changed up the story in a wonderful and exciting new way – the apprentice (Kylo Ren) takes the First Order all for himself. Even if Snoke did survive, I think he wouldn’t have come to be a better villain than Sidious. I say this because I am comparing Snoke to Sidious’s entire history (prequels + original trilogy).

2. Did you feel like Luke was acting out of character in The Last Jedi?

I like your thoughts, however I do not necessarily agree with them. "It teaches us that we will never completely overcome our personal struggles and that we are met with challenges every day." I personally think that is a terrible lesson, especially given from a beloved hero such as Luke Skywalker. His original lesson was essentially "Don't give in to the temptations of evil, because good will always triumph... there is always hope." Luke Skywalker symbolizes "Hope" and I just cannot accept that the character we knew in the OT is the same in TLJ. Yes, a flaw is that he acts on instincts... but that shouldn't overpower his greatest attribute. And then, after all that he ran off and moped on an island where little nuns do his laundry for him... that's not Luke.

I see where you’re coming from, and that’s fine if you disagree with my thoughts about that theme in TLJ. But you’re looking at Luke through a black-and-white lens. Expecting someone to be a perfect symbol of an ideal like “hope” is flawed because no one is actually perfect. In fact, TLJ touched on that very issue by telling Luke’s side of the story of why he almost killed Ben: that there was so much pressure for him to be a legend, a perfect person, that it all eventually came crashing down on him. Because he saw the evil growing inside of Ben Solo, he felt like he had to live up to the rest of the galaxy’s expectations by preventing the Dark Side from taking over again.

I think what you’re saying about him being a symbol of hope is actually portrayed very well in the movie, despite the fact that he was far from a perfect ideal of hope. The fact that he came back to help in the end reminded us of why we love Luke. That even though he went through a rough patch in his life, he still had hope inside of him – he never gave it up. In fact, his noble sacrifice eternalized him as a legend. We see that the slave kids on Canto Bight were inspired by Luke Skywalker because he stood down an army. Now at least one of those kids has been inspired by the Rebellion.

3. How did you feel about Luke’s final sacrifice and the way he died?

The way they showed him in the movie where he left for (I think) a decade and hid away, not helping at all, then very easily, he is persuaded to help... O.K.

The death can be interpreted: as him dying from exhaustion which shouldn't be something even remotely tied to Luke Skywalker's death. I think his death is actually the most disappointing thing for me from all the movies including prequels. I honestly don't want to think about it, to add to this argument.

It was actually very hard for Rey to convince Luke to come back and help. She followed him around without him even paying attention to her and she had to constantly pep talk him into training her. Only after begging Luke to help and then finally (if I remember correctly) reminding him of just how much of a hero he is does Luke finally decide to help.

As for Luke’s final Force feat, think about it this way: it was like someone running a marathon without training for one. That person would be exhausted and on the verge of death. The fact that Luke was even able to project himself across the galaxy without having used the Force in years really demonstrates just how powerful he was with The Force. Even for a Skywalker, that is a tremendous amount of strain.

Did you not think his final moment in front of the twin suns was beautiful? It was a direct callback to when we first met him – his story came full circle to when we met him in Episode IV.

4. How did you feel about the character of Rose Tico?

At the beginning she was an annoying fan-girl. In the middle she was a plug of Social Justice into Star Wars. At the end she took away Finn's heroic sacrifice which he was doing out of love for the resistance, not hatred for the First Order. Not to mention the terrible kiss, THERE WAS NO PREVIOUS CHEMISTRY BETWEEN THEM! AWKWARD! Then, they are over by the enemy lines, and.... no one shoots them.... they just... go back to the base.... ummmm... what? She was also just terrible at acting. Finn's character was changed in this movie. He was one of my favorite things from TFA, but then they took away all his fun traits and replaced it with bland trash.

Ok sure she could have come across as annoying in the beginning, but it’s the fact that she starts becomes a hero herself later by going on the mission to Canto Bight that she starts to disprove herself as an “annoying fan-girl’. Regardless of what you think about the Canto Bight subplot, the fact that she potentially risked her life to help the Resistance shows that she grows as a character.

As for being “a plug for Social Justice”, was it the comments about the weapons manufacturing that made you think this? If so, that’s kind of a futile argument you’re making about Star Wars because the entire original story is about the rich and powerful Empire oppressing the poor and helpless rest of the galaxy lol. I mean the Empire had the Death Star, and the First Order had Starkiller Base. Given that the goals of the Empire/First Order revolve around military prowess, doesn’t it make sense that they’d be willing to pay top dollar for weapons? You seem to be making this a political issue when it’s really not.

What made you think there was no chemistry between Finn and Rose before? They were put in prison together and had to escape a planet together. I’m pretty sure that constitutes some kind of bonding and having to see the best in each other.

5. How did you feel about the Canto Bight sub-plot/adventure?

I think it had no place In the film... I just don't despise it. It was not subtle at all in the messages of rich people controlling everything... also It says providing weapons to the first order is the only way to be THAT rich? What? Not the dudes that make technology? Droids? Etc. Also, those horse things are going to be recaptured very quickly... and they barely messed with everything... since everyone is super rich, they should be able to replace everything broken easily.

Well, I mean if you look at the real world, the weapons business is one of the most profitable businesses in the world lol. You’re saying that “the dudes that make technology” can be rich? Again, look at the real world. Do you think the factory workers in China assembling iPhones are making top dollar? No. Is it the engineers of Apple and Microsoft that get the most credit? No. It’s Steve Jobs and Bill Gates that get the credit. The Canto Bight scene was trying to portray the idea that it’s the businessmen and the corporations of the world that are profiting off death and destruction. I’m not saying this is what I think, but this is probably what the filmmakers of TLJ think. It’s supposed to reflect how filmmakers interpret the world. And if you don’t agree with it, well…sorry I guess? Again, I don’t want to make this a political argument, I’m just trying to interpret what the filmmakers were trying to say in this scene.

Also I don’t really understand what you’re trying to say about the horse creatures…

I think what was awesome about Canto Bight was how they came full circle with it at the end of the film. The kids were inspired Rose and Finn and they now have hope for a better life because Rose and Finn showed them what happens when you never give up, even if the odds are stacked against you.

6. How did you feel about Vice Admiral Holdo’s hyperdrive plan?

It created plot holes in that: this is clearly an extremely powerful weapon... why hasn't this been used at all previously? There's more, but I'm tired and there not that important, more like lore nitpicks.

It wasn’t used previously because it’s extremely dangerous to use hyperdive in close proximity to other things (as we saw in the film). The scene in which hyperdrive was used was unlike any other battle scenario we’d seen in Star Wars thus far. It was one ship up against an entire fleet, with the rest of the Resistance ships out of proximity. It was probably never used before because using it would potentially destroy your own allies. the In the Original Trilogy, Han Solo even talked about how dangerous hyperdrive can be.

8. How did you feel about the Porgs?

Could of done with a little less CGI though.

I see. They had Porg puppets, though. Did you like those?

11. Did you feel like Rey had a lack of character development in the Last Jedi? Do you feel like Rey is (still) a Mary Sue?

"I think she’s not as much of a Mary Sue as people say she is. People have been shown to use the Force without training before. (Who?) Even Luke did! When he retrieved his lightsaber on Hoth, he didn’t even know you could use telekinesis with the Force! (It can be implied he had some level of knowledge from Obi-Wan. Also, that is much more simple than what Rey is seen doing.) To me, that seems pretty Mary Sue-ish. As well as him never flying an X-Wing before and landing the impossibly hard shot to take down the Death Star. (He hasn't flown an X-Wing before, but he has lots of experience in flying. Also, he is the son of the best pilot in Galactic history. That shot was also an exception because that was a "lose or win" thing. How Rey uses it is usually less serious and more of a gimmick.) Those are just a few examples lol." (Rey's Mary Sueness also comes from her personality and character. She has no flaws in her character. Luke has many, like you noted before. She briefly had the "I have to wait on Jakku" but that wasn't important to her character or the plot or story in any way.)

Some other characters who have used the Force without training are Ezra Bridger in Rebels (S1E1) when he does a Force Push and (supposedly without training) Leia in TLJ. You can’t assume that Obi-Wan taught Luke anything about the Force. When do you think it was implied? Before Luke started flying an X-Wing, we see no indication of him flying either. He was a farm boy. He may have driven speeders on Tatooine, but they are completely different from X-Wings. Also, what makes you think piloting skills are inherited? It’s a learned skill. You could be the “son of the best pilot in Galactic history”, but if you’ve never actually learned how to fly a starship, how can you land a near-impossible shot like that? Also what do you mean by “‘a lose or win’ thing”? Like it was life or death? That would have only made Luke even more nervous. But that’s all kind of beside the point.

I think what you’re missing about Rey is the fact that she has an internal conflict. She spent her whole life on Jakku doing nothing and then has this call to adventure and has to continually overcome her self-doubt about being a person of value. She even sees in the vision of Anakin’s lightsaber this call to adventure, but she keeps questioning herself. When Kylo Ren tells her about her parents, it prompts her to grow because she realizes that she can make her own path, no matter where she comes from.

12. Did you feel like there was an overall lack of character development in the film?

"Rey learns more about the Force and learns to resist Kylo’s Ren temptation (Her learning the force isn't character development, because it didn't change her character in any way, just added to her skills), Finn learns to stop running (He already learned that in the last movie), Poe learns that not all problems are solved by violence (This was a non existent problem in TFA and made him look like an idiot in this movie. He actually didn't really learn at all by the end either.), and Kylo Ren learns to stand up for himself (I mean... sure... but that's pretty lame), let the past die (Why did he need to let the past die?), and take his rightful place as Supreme Leader (He's an angsty young boy who needs more training, not the rightful heir to the First Order throne. It seems like theyre mocking their own franchise.) ."

Why is it lame that Kylo Ren learns to stand up for himself? That’s something we all deal with as people, and it makes his struggle relatable. He needed to let the past die because he decided that he couldn’t be like Vader anymore. He came to the conclusion that he couldn’t be a slave to Snkoe like Vader was to Sidious, and Kylo smashing his helmet and killing Snoke are representative of his growth as a character. He goes from being a servant of the Snoke and the First Order to becoming in charge of it all. He was able to pull that all off which comes to show that he’s definitely grown.

Additional Thoughts:

"What exactly constitutes a “TERRIBLE Star Wars film”? (one that ruins previously adored things in Star Wars ie. Luke, the Force, etc.)I think TLJ adds more dimension, depth, and complexity to the SW lore . One of the major examples being that anyone can become a Jedi, and that one doesn’t need to be tied to a bloodline (We already saw that in the prequels... their were plenty of Jedi.). By teaching themes of overcoming our failures, letting go of the past, and discovering the hero inside all of us, it definitely is the most narratively complex SW movie." (Except all the themes were blatantly shoved in our face. A good theme is something subtle which youre understanding subconsciously and without analysis, you don't realize at all. Any moron can figure out the themes in this movie... just like how any moron can figure out the themes in a childrens book, that doesn't make it complex.)

This is the first time I'm not excited for the next Star Wars movie to come out.... I'm worried.

We may have seen that there were other people that didn’t have ties to bloodlines in the prequels, but what’s cool about Rey is that she’s pretty much a nobody on a desert planet that is becoming the next greatest hero of the Resistance. It sounds similar to Luke’s story, but it puts an even greater twist on it because she wasn’t related to some galactic hero. Again, this new trilogy is telling us that anyone, no matter where they come from, or who they’re related to, can be a great hero.

As for “all the themes [being] blatantly shoved in our face” you have to think about the audience of SW. This is both the beauty and tragedy of the SW movies, but the audience is everyone. Even though you may think it, not everyone can pick up on the subtle themes that are present in movies like you or me. That’s why they needed to be more blatant than subtle. The SW movies are especially trying to get through to kids, who most likely don’t have the critical and analytical skills that you and I have. So you’re comparison of the SW movies to a children’s book is actually quite accurate, because guess what? The main audience of Star Wars, who is owned by Disney, is kids.

@legacy6364: Looooool why though?

@dark-sith123: Thanks so much for your thoughts! I really appreciate your feedback. It sounds like you liked the movie. What's interesting is that I like this movie WAY more the second time I saw it. I think it's just so much to take in the first time that a lot of people ended up missing some stuff.

I totally agree with your thoughts about Luke - hit it right on the head!

As for your thoughts on the Canto Bight stuff, I agree that it could've been shortened. However, I thought this whole adventure was awesome because even though people say it's pointless, that was the point. It was a cool dynamic to see the Resistance's plans fail and continually ask myself "How are they going to get out of this one?". It was so exhilarating that the movie was so unpredictable. And I loved how it all led to the last-ditch, badass hyperspace ramming.

And yeah I love what you said about how this movie was unlike any other SW movie. Btw, OT supremacists are so annoying lol.

I don't think Rey is necessarily a bland character overall, but the fact that she is kicking everyone's asses without training is pretty annoying. I like how she has internal conflicts like trying to find her place in the galaxy/make her own path and struggling with parental loss, but the fact that she has no external conflicts is really troublesome.

It's funny because I agree with most everything else you said about the character development - especially Rose, Phasma, and Hux hahaha. I acknowledge Kylo's awesome change in character, but I personally didn't like it because I was hoping he'd turn to the Light. It's ok though, because he's turning into an awesome character regardless. Again, glad you liked the movie! :)

1.I loved every minute of Snoke on Screen and the mystery behind his character had me on the edge of my seat. I would be lying if i said i wasn't disappointed by his demise because i wanted to see Snoke vs Luke. However that is me being picky because my fanfiction didnt end up being canon lol. His death shocked me and i loved the fight scene that followed.

2.I dont think Luke was acting out of character because if you consider everything he has gone through, it is understandable that he would be emotionally broken by his experiences. His aunt and uncle died horribly.Luke discovered his father was the most hated man in the galaxy and watched him die after vader redeemed himself. And to top it all off his nephew turned to the darkside and murdered his pupils and burnt his temple to the ground. Everyone has a breaking point, even luke skywalker. I wasn't expecting luke skywalker from legends and knew it was never coming. I thought ot was a brave choice from a writing perspective.

3. I loved his Sacrifice and i cant wait for forve ghost Luke in episode 9.

4.Rose was not the worst thing about the movie or the best. I enjoyed her character, everything except that awkward kiss towards the end of the film.

5.Canto bight should not have taken that long, there could have been scenes with luke and rey training or something to fill the void. I enjoyed it but it took too long.

6.Holdos plan was awesome and i loved the sequence, it was epic. I think Poe will learn a lot from watching leia and hold in action and the choices they made. He is going to be more of a leader in episode 9.

7.Meh. Im glad they are expanding the universe instead of making her a skywalker or a kenobi to be honest. Her learning the truth will allow rey to let go and grow into a more powerful Jedi.

8.Porgs rock.

9.Most of the funnier scenes made me laugh i didnt have issues with it.

10.Yes. It was like going to see the prequels as a kid.

11.Rey will only be a mary sue if they dont explain how she learned so quickly. A classically trained Jedi would merk her imo and i hope they fill this gap.

12.Rey became more powerful and self aware.

Finn re learned what he did in the force awakens imo. He Didnt really grow.

Poe learned that being brash and hot headed isn't the way to go.

Kylo Ren changed the most if you ask me and has now gone full fledged darkside mode, which is awesome.

I give it 8.3ish out of 10. It will always be apart of my star wars movie marathon.

1. Don’t care about the mystery about Snoke anymore because they killed him off too early.

2. He was definitely acting out of character. The same dude that knew his father had performed all these evil acts yet still chose to risk his life for a very slim chance at redeeming him because he faintly saw a little bit of light in him then decides and actually contemplates killing his nephew, who’s he’s watched grow up and been there all of his life because he sees a little bit of darkness in him and there’s a “chance” he might turn to the dark side. There’s a chance *anyone* being trained in the Force would turn to the dark side. And then he ups and abandons the galaxy after creating and letting loose Kylo Ren. He’s responsible for the death of millions and his best friend Han, who he can’t even be sad for his death because it’s his fault for letting Kylo go and not doing *anything* at all to try and fix his mistake.

3. His final sacrifice was fine. Everything leading up to it was done wrong though.

4. Rose was annoying and ruined what would have been a great character moment for Finn. She was willing to let the entire Resistance die so that she could kiss him.

5. Canto Bight was stupid and only thrown in there to give Finn something to do.

6. Holdo’s plan was stupid and the only reason it was written that way was for dramatic effect on the audience. Lazy and bad writing.

7. Rey’s parentage was done poorly. Don’t care that she’s a “nobody”, but it was written badly.

8. Porgs were lame, it was obvious to tell when they were CGI and when they were animatronics, and they’re nothing but a marketing ploy really.

9. Humor was overdone. Tried too hard to make it funny and wasn’t anything like past SW humor.

10. Not at all. Loved the OT, liked the PT, but left the theater severely dissapointed after watching this. I watched TFA twice (once on Christmas Eve), I watched Rogue One three times, but only wanted to watch TLJ once.

11. She’s still a Mary Sue. I was willing to defend her after TFA, but her “downloading” skills from Kylo is the laziest writing I’ve seen and her suddenly being able to lift dozens of rocks simply because she’s the new “Chosen One” makes nearly all arguments for her not being a Mary Sue null and void.

12. Yeah.

It was the equivalent of a prequel with absurdly good special effects

Complete trash

Loved it.

@marvelanddcfan24: Are you trying to say that the prequels were bad, and that TLJ is just as bad but with better special effects? Or that the prequels were good and therefore implying that TLJ was good as well?

@iknowwhoyouare: Looooool why though?

@hush114: I LOVE what you had to say about this movie. I agree with pretty much everything you said hahaha! I liked Canto Bight , and I thought the fact that it was 'pointless' was the whole point because they were trying to add more stakes to the story. I do agree that it was too dragged out though hahaha. And yessss I can't wait to see Force Ghost Luke in IX!! And porgs DO rock hahaha they're awesome. :)

@arcticdjinn: For starters

Main plot is confusing and made no sense

Subplots were useless to the main plot and forced

Primary villain gets hyped up and killed off LMAO

Secondary villain is even worse than Barry Allen as a character and I hate CW Flash

Next villain was hyped up last time for no reason only to get killed off too LMAO

Dumb feminist agenda forced down our throats

Dumb humor used for no reason at all

Main hero doesn't learn anything from her master who hasn't taught crap at all

@arcticdjinn:

1. Before he was killed off too early, yeah I wanted to know more about him. Now, not so much.

2. I don’t care if he gradually saw he darkness inside of Kylo. Everyone who trains in the Force has the chance to turn to the dark side, and Like even contemplating for a second about killing his sleeping, unarmed nephew was a complete betrayal of the character. No, Luke making a mistake that we can all relate to is him being overconfident in his abilities and getting sent down the Rancor pit, getting shot in the hand, resorting to using his anger when Vader found out about Leia, and trying to pass on what he learned but failing. Not attempting to murder his nephew in cold blood while said nephew is sleeping. And what dark-sith said is completely irrelevant. Luke was a coward because he unleashed Kylo Ren onto the galaxy and handed him to Snoke and then ran away. He then *didn’t* want to be found and brought back into the fight but created a map that led directly to his location? Doesn’t make sense, and neither does abandoning the galaxy saying “welp I created Kylo Ren and now I’m gonna let you guys take care of him” and now Luke’s friend Lor San Tekka, the entire New Republic, and Han and are all dead because of his actions and lack of action. I don’t care if he wasn’t actually there to fight the First Order in the last fight and what he did doesn’t show that he knows when to stop fighting at all. It showed that he ran away from his problems, let e galaxy try to fix it on its own, and now the First Order has basically taken over.

3. For starters, Luke being convicted to join the fight and help the Resistance simply because of R2’s message was lazy writing.

5. No, Canto Bight wasn’t in there for a good reason. That whole subplot was literally thrown in there just to give Finn, a leading actor in the new trilogy, something to do. None of it had me on the edge of my seat. I felt surprised when he turned them over, but that was it. It wasn’t “exhilarating” to me at all. Not to mention Phasma was killed off pathetically.

6. If Holdo had told Poe her plan from the beginning, there would be no audience shock of “oh wow she’s heading for that old Rebel base I guess she isn’t bad after all”. It was stupid and could have been solved by simply saying “yeah we’re heading to an old base and I’m going to distract the First Order while you slip away” instead of Holdo withholding the plan simply for dramatic effect, both for her crew and for the audience. It was stupid. I’m not talking about the hyperspace suicide, which if that was possible why not use that earlier, but that’s another topic.

7. We already know from the movie and the novel that Kylo found out from their Force bond, but it was poorly done. I watched it and I didn’t like it. It’s that simple. And no it wasn’t hard to predict.

8. I know why the porgs were thrown in the movie and I still don’t like them. Star Wars has never been a “kid movie” and TFA didn’t have anything “cute” for kids to look at besides BB-8. Like I said, you could spot when they were CGI and when they were animatronic and the movie could have done without them.

9. I don’t want to watch it a second time because I already know the humor still won’t be good.

10. I already did watch it with an open mind the first time. I avoided all trailers and teasers outside of the very first one and tried reading the new Canon books before watching it just so that I could get more used to this new universe and not the Legends one I’ve grown up with and loved. I also didn’t want any of the popular fan theories about Rey to be true (her being a Kenobi, her being Anakin reincarnated, her being Luke’s daughter, her being Han/Leia’s daughter, etc.), and I still didn’t like it. Watching it a second time won’t really help me tbh.

11. The novelization of the movie tells us that when Rey and Kylo had their Force bond, she “downloaded” Kylo’s skills onto herself, which is why she could now fight the First Order’s elite soldiers and lift over a dozen rocks with two lessons on the Force.

1. How did you feel about the mystery surrounding Supreme Leader Snoke?

A waste really. They could have done things with him and based on the few things we learned about him, he was a rather crucial figure but they had to kill him.

2. Did you feel like Luke was acting out of character in The Last Jedi?

3. How did you feel about Luke’s final sacrifice and the way he died?

4. How did you feel about the character of Rose Tico?

Indifferent. Even if she wasn't in the movie, doubt things would have been much different.

5. How did you feel about the Canto Bight sub-plot/adventure?

Completely unnecessary. It added nothing to the movie, not to mention that a lot of people in the Resistance died because of it.

6. How did you feel about Vice Admiral Holdo’s hyperdrive plan?

The hyperdrive ram was cool, one of the most impressive scenes I have seen lately but everything leading up to this was just stupid.

7. How did you feel about the mystery of Rey’s parents being shrugged away?

I don't really mind her not coming from one of the prominent SW families, it is just that it was teased quite a lot in the previous movie, so I can understand people feeling cheated.

8. How did you feel about the Porgs?

They were ok. The other fox like creatures were cool though.

9. How did you feel about the humor in the film?

While it wasn't GotG vol. 2 or Thor: Ragnarok bad, I would have been ok with it being toned down somewhat more.

10. Did you feel like this movie brought back the nostalgia of Star Wars you may have had when you were younger?

11. Did you feel like Rey had a lack of character development in the Last Jedi? Do you feel like Rey is (still) a Mary Sue?

12. Did you feel like there was an overall lack of character development in the film?

2. Did you feel like Luke was acting out of character in The Last Jedi?

Yes, based on what information I had through the Episodes IV-VII. I did not read any books

I thought he was different because everything he had worked for came crashing down on him. There are 20 years of Luke that we don't see, and it makes sense that things would change like that over time.

To me the core of who Luke Skywalker is someone who does not quit. He made a mistake, he pouted, but to spend years in isolation, allow evil to run wild and be content to die a failure? That's what gets me and I don't think Episode came close to giving enough for such a dramatic downward turn in a character.

Again, a lot changes in 20 years. Some stuff that could have/did happen between ROTJ and Ben Solo turning to the Dark Side. One of the biggest things that happened was that the galaxy found out that Luke and Leia are the children of Darth Vader, which raised suspicions about them and their intentions. But how does this pertain to Luke giving up all hope? Well, the thing about this is that

Amidst all this hatred, killing Ben was one thing that could prove, at least to himself, that he was doing the right thing. And remember - this wasn't even something Luke planned for weeks or months. It was just a mere thought that past in half a second. He made a mistake - something that all of us do.

But the amazing thing about Luke is that you're right: he didn't quit! He (with the help of Rey I think) re-discovered the hope inside of him. He came back to help the Resistance in the end - he was redeemed. The wonderful thing about this arc was that

We all expected Luke to be a bad ass and knock heads. We wanted him to use the Force in magnificently action-packed ways. But I think what's cool about Luke's final act is that it changed our expectations for how we think the Force should be used. Luke decides to use it in a peaceful way. He realizes that not all conflicts can be solved with a lightsaber.

The reason why I was ok with that was because it gave Luke this really interesting character arc that we had never seen before. For TLJ I was actually really worried that Luke was just gonna be another Yoda. Fans were so upset about TFA being a re-hash of ANH and they wanted them to be more original, and then when TLJ was just that - totally different from ESB, people got upset? Like I don't understand why.

Luke has always been a flawed character - that's why we love him. Because he has both complex internal and external struggles. If he became a wise, old Jedi Master like Yoda, he would have lost what we love about him the most. And I mean one thing I'm thinking that others might think is: "But Luke already completed his character arc in ROTJ. He should have played a different role in TLJ, which would have been the Mentor."

This all has to do with expectations of what TLJ was gonna be. I think the Internet really hyped up the expectations of TLJ with theories and speculations and this set up a bunch of false expectations for the movie.

-------------------------------

The issue is we have a vacuum we must fill in that 20 years and the pieces we get don't make the pay off of Luke's downfall feel earned.

All we know is he considered killing Ben, changed his mind, and that the misunderstanding led to Ben slaughtering or recruiting the other students. Luke sees this and decides to go to a island and live out his days in disgrace.

Let me first say this, I have zero issue with Luke going through a change, even a dark one. If you're going to do that though I feel it needs to be earned.

Here's what I'd do, can tear apart my story as fair game. This is assuming Force Awakens happens as it did. I'm not commenting on other story lines, just Luke.

After Return of the Jedi, Luke starts a school recruiting pupils. Ben Solo is brought in at a young age with tremendous potential. Luke is proud of how fast Ben grasps the force, but senses darkness in him. Luke ignores it trusting in Ben and the light he senses too. After years Luke is called away on a mysterious mission. While gone Ben enacts his plan with his Knights and massacres the other students burning the school to the ground. Luke arrives too late seeing the charred remnants of his dream, he forces himself to stare at the corpses of his dead students, burning the image into his brain. Ben and his Knights are causing chaos as powerful force users with distinct and valuable abilities allowing creativity in approaching them. Luke hunts the Knights and tries in vain to redeem them, they are too far gone, corrupted by darkness and they push him until he has to kill them one by one. This takes its toll on Luke as he comes to his last two students, Ben and a powerful female (I'll call her Jaina) with the ability to confuse perception with the force. Luke desperately tries to save them, but at their power he nearly dies and has to kill them both, with Ben's death in particular being the heart breaking one. Luke is broken, he's watched everything fall to ruin and murdered his nephew. He resolves to never seek out another student, he goes into isolation to read the Jedi texts seeking wisdom of how he failed. He cuts himself off from the force even to further isolation, but he leaves a map in case he is ever needed or sought out by someone to train.

The twist is that Ben's gambit was to use Jaina as a decoy because he couldn't defeat Luke, he could trick him. Her manipulation and sacrifice allowed him to move on becoming powerful and emerge once he learned Luke was gone plotting his revenge on his master. Upon meeting Rey, Luke is hesitant as he lost so much failing by trusting Ben, but hearing about the First Order he agrees to train her. She goes to the dark and he is deeply troubled by her actions telling her to leave. Then in the Skype force call Luke learns Ben is alive. This changes his resolve to confront his great failure with Rey. She believes in Ben and takes the X-Wing to the Supremacy, Luke goes to Crait with Chewbacca on the Falcon.

Rey has the throne scene, but we get another twist. When Ben's light sabre cuts through Snoke it is...a Force Projection. "You chose her...after all I did for you? All that sacrifice" Snoke strokes his deep scar, stands up, and changes form to reveal the true puppet master, Jaina (played by live action actress). "I have been training you from our first days at the academy, with your delusions of power to be Darth Vader, I have no more patience Ben, you will always be weak like your uncle...your father...your mother" she mocks and sends her guards at them both. Big fight scene, and Ben and Rey escape to Crait.

The Falcon lands behind the base, Luke moves the rocks getting a big hero shot as he meets up with Leia and everyone. "It's Luke Skywalker! We need time Luke, cannot get all our people out as the Walkers and First order are closing in". Luke has a tender moment and then heads through the base to the opening to face off against the entire First Order. Hux states there is a single man blocking their way. Jaina sees the visual and (as Snoke persona) orders "Focus everything on that man, he cannot be allowed to survive" The blasts ring out engulfing Luke, when the dust clears his hands are raised and dozens of blasts are suspended in mid air much how Ben did to Poe in start of VII. Luke is clearly struggling under the strain and sends the blasts back taking out a few walkers. It is not enough though and Luke is drained by the exertion. Ben and Rey land and after a glance from Leia getting on the Falcon they rush through the base. They see Luke hunched over and he looks over his shoulder to see them both giving a weak smile and then gazes the horizon seeing the twin suns setting...and then Luke Skywalker is lost in a hail of laser fire as fighters bombard where he stood. Luke Skywalker is dead.

The blasts knock Rey and Ben back and they have to retreat as First Order swarms in being the last two people on the Falcon. The film closes on the members on the ship and asking "Where do we go from here?" Rey sees Luke's green light sabre left on the ship for her and resolves in a noble cause to never give up despite the odds, that's his greatest lesson for her.

---------------------------

I'm sure plenty of issues with this version as is a first draft. My goals

1. Dovetail Luke's character of trusting optimist and how it could be defeated turning him inward and defeated.

2. Subvert expectations of who Snoke could be while giving the main villain an attachment to Ben.

3. Redeem Luke as Rey shows him hope in Ben still much like their was in Annakin giving him peace as he helps save everyone.

4. Excite the audience as to how Ben will relate to the Resistance, Leia, Chewbacca, Finn, and Rey.

5. Transition generations by respecting the old while giving a platform for the young.

Could be a greater rework to other parts, in mine Canto Bite is cut and get more time with Rey and Luke as they'd be the central piece to the narrative allowing us to get invested with them. Maybe you like my ideas, maybe you don't. I'm no professional writer, but I do think basis of emotional investment is taking an audience through a journey they can understand and identify with characters. Could set up a show down in IX with Rey and Ben against Jaina and she could manipulate them both making her a true threat as they have to work through their internal conflicts to overcome the major external one. Neither are strong enough alone, only together can they over come this major threat. Just spit balling here, at this point I'm very weary of Star Wars and am fine if others are happy with it, we just had different expectations of the series.

@arcticdjinn: Lol thanks :).

Btw, do you think Snoke is still alive? Perhaps he was projecting himself the way Luke was at the end of the film?

@mraugen:

We all expected Luke to be a bad ass and knock heads. We wanted him to use the Force in magnificently action-packed ways. But I think what's cool about Luke's final act is that it changed our expectations for how we think the Force should be used. Luke decides to use it in a peaceful way. He realizes that not all conflicts can be solved with a lightsaber.

Nope, that's wrong. He didn't change how we the fans think of anything about the Force. Since 1980 when Empire came out, one of he first things Yoda taught Luke and us the fans about how the Jedi use the Force is for knowledge and defense, never attack. Sure, the Prequels went "back" on this, but those were severely different and desperate times. That's why moves like Force Choke and Crush are more dark side powers. His final act did no such thing as change people's expectations for how the Force should be used because that's how it was already presented to us.

The reason why I was ok with that was because it gave Luke this really interesting character arc that we had never seen before. For TLJ I was actually really worried that Luke was just gonna be another Yoda. Fans were so upset about TFA being a re-hash of ANH and they wanted them to be more original, and then when TLJ was just that - totally different from ESB, people got upset? Like I don't understand why.

Fans were upset because it was a bad movie.

Luke has always been a flawed character - that's why we love him. Because he has both complex internal and external struggles. If he became a wise, old Jedi Master like Yoda, he would have lost what we love about him the most. And I mean one thing I'm thinking that others might think is: "But Luke already completed his character arc in ROTJ. He should have played a different role in TLJ, which would have been the Mentor."

This all has to do with expectations of what TLJ was gonna be. I think the Internet really hyped up the expectations of TLJ with theories and speculations and this set up a bunch of false expectations for the movie.

The expectations were set up by the movie itself and the promoters and then they made a sub-par movie.

If Luke had become a wise old Jedi Master, that would have been fine. Why is it only considered "character development" for him if he becomes a grump that runs away from his problems?

@hush114: Hahaha I don't think he's alive. It would be very surprising if he was, but I we saw him get physically cut in half. If it was a projection, I think the lightsaber would have gone right through him, just like we saw with Kylo vs. Luke.

@mraugen: Thanks so much for your thoughts. Your story is very interesting and it sounds like you've thought it through even though it's a first draft. You have such great passion and you sounds like a true fan.

I understand the problem with there being a vacuum for 20 years. Heck, even I wish we could have seen some more of what was going on at that time, but it's just not practical for the filmmakers to try to fill in those gaps. They're really trying to focus in on the next generation of characters, which I completely understand, but I also understand that a lot of fans are upset because they seem to be forcing the original characters out of the series. It seems like you, along with a lot of other fans are upset by the legacy of Luke and possibly the other original characters. I've tried to give you my take on why I was ok with everything that I liked, but if you strongly disagree with my reasoning like it seems you do, I'm not gonna try to convince you of anything. Especially since you've made an elaborate alternate story that you seem to feel strongly about.

But yeah, it seems that we both had very different expectations for Star Wars. And that's ok. May the Force be with you always, my friend.

@narutobleachfan: I can't tell if you're just trying to be funny or are actually serious. Did you really hate everything about this movie? If so, could you tell me why?

@thevivas: Just in case you didn't know, when you quoted MrAugen, those are my responses to his thoughts.

Given the fact that Luke Force Choked Gamorrean guards and was aggressive and angry (not Jedi-like) in the ways he conducted himself in ROTJ, I think this gave us a different take on how Jedi use the Force. In these instances, a Light Side user was using the Force in an offensive and aggressive manner, quite contradictory to how you say we have been shown how the Force is used by the Jedi. Sure, Luke decided to throw his lightsaber away at the last possible second in ROTJ, but that wasn't using the Force. Nor does this cancel out the fact that he was about to kill father seconds before (again, not very Jedi-like). I can assure you that there were plenty of fans who speculated that Luke would go gung-ho and be a bad ass in TLJ. Whether you like it or not, ROTJ, the prequels, and The Clone Wars TV show had a HUGE influence on how we see the Force being used in aggressive ways. It sounds like you think the Jedi are complete pacifists. Sometimes the best defense is a good offense, and we've seen this portrayed by the Jedi time and time again. You can't just discredit ROTJ, the prequels, and The Clone Wars for not affecting how we see the Force being used because those Star Wars stories were a lot of what was made before TLJ. Also when in Star Wars is it NOT a desperate time? The whole series is based on wartime struggles.

You're gonna have to elaborate on why you think it was a bad movie. Why I think it was a good movie: full of surprises and twists (had me on the edge of my seat the whole time), pushed the limits of the good guys beyond what we had seen before, intense and memorable dialogue, compelling character relationships (especially Rey and Kylo Ren), meaningful character struggles (even Rey and Rose, who I didn't like in this movie learned how to become even better heroes), and it reified the mysteriousness of the Force (with new abilities, but mainly because they more or less scrapped the idea you have to be tied to a bloodline to be strong in the Force. Even though I'm not a fan of how Rey is so powerful with so little training, this change to the canon nonetheless re-sparked the mystery and wonder of how the Force works) - something we had previously lost due to the introduction of the midichlorians. There were many other things I liked about it, but those are the main reasons.

The expectations that were set up in the trailers and promotional materials were genius because it made you think one thing was going to happen, but instead something entirely different was given to us. That's the definition of a good twist. Kylo holding his hand out after Rey said "I need someone to show me my place in all this" was ingenious because it made it seem like Rey was going to join Kylo. Ben DID try to show Rey her place in the movie, but we were taken aback by the moment and context of the trailer. There were other massive theories about the movie that people thought were going to be true, but the fact that all those things turned out not to be true were what made this movie all the more exciting. You had no idea what was going to happen next. Unpredictability is the hallmark of a good story, and TLJ portrayed this magnificently.

The whole reason we invest in stories is because we want to see characters overcome their struggles, both external and internal. If you thought that Luke would have been better off being a wise Jedi Master and already completing his character arc, that's fine. But if you heard that there was gonna be a new character arc for Luke Skywalker, wouldn't you be excited? That would mean more growth for Luke, more relatability to him, and more love for him. The fact that he went through the horror of seeing his students get killed and his temple being burnt down is beyond heartbreaking. But the fact that he still had hope inside of him - the fact that he overcame that great grief and still came back to help the Resistance and become one with the Force at the end makes him all the more likable. Sure, there could have been other ways to go about character development for him, but this was so compelling and dramatic that it made the payoff of him coming back to save the Resistance at the end all the more awesome.

@arcticdjinn: If that’s true, then I apologize to Mr Augen.

Like using Force Choke on the Gamorrean Guards (if that’s *really* what he did) and being “angry” in ROTJ doesn’t mean that fans suddenly picture that for every Jedi and assume that every Jedi acts the same way and uses the Force in he same way. Luke in ROTJ did no such thing as give us a different take in Jedi using the Force.

And nobody thought Luke was going to go gung-ho and be a badass because when have Jedi *ever* done that? In he Old UE sure I can see people honking that, but nowhere in he New Canon have we seen hat and why would fans just assume that of Luke based on past portrayals of him? The entire new Canon material has basically spoon fed the SW fandom that the new Canon isn’t going to be anything like Legends.

Uhh no, there was no influence on how we see the Force used in aggressive ways. Sith use Lightning and Force Choke, and Jedi who tap into the dark side use Force Choke. They didn’t influence anything because they didn’t do anything new. And of course I think Jedi are supposed to be “pacifists” because that’s what the entire series has led us to believe. One of Ben’s first pieces of wisdom was “there are alternatives to fighting”, then we see him use trickery to get past stormtroopers instead of just brute Force, and then in the cantina he offers to buy the Doctor a drink when he haggled Luke and only resorted to using his lightsaber when blasters were drawn. Then you have Yoda telling Luke that the Force is used for knowledge and defense, never attack, and then Mace Windu saying Jedi are “keepers of the peace, not soldiers”, and even Ki-Adi-Mundi saying that Dooku shouldn’t be capable of murder because he was a former Jedi. I could probably name even more examples from TCW, Rebels, the comics, and novels, but that would take too much time. The main point is that Jedi are supposed to be pacifists and keepers of the peace and ROTJ, the prequels, and TCW don’t affect no we see the Force being used because they dont change anything up st all: Sith use Force Choke and Jedi who are angered use it. They and TLJ by extension don’t give us a new perspective of the Force at all.

The main SW story only revolves around 60 or so years. The entire history of SW goes on way past that, and there weren’t constant wars throughout without peacetime. TPM notes this by saying the Sith have been extinct for millennia and there being no actual conflict being backed up by the Republic, a massive, galaxy spanning government, not having an army.

“had me on the edge of my seat the whole time“ That’s an opinion. I wasn’t on the edge of my seat for more than maybe 20 minutes.

“pushed the limits of the good guys beyond what we had seen before“

Rogue One did this, TLJ did not. There we had the “good guys” murdering people to cover their tracks and contemplating and planning preemptive murder to prevent future super weapons from happening. All this movie had in that department was a mutiny.

“intense and memorable dialogue“

There wasn’t any intense or memorable dialogue. Some of Snoke’s and Reylo’s lines were good, but even the final conversation between Kylo and Luke didn’t give me a “memorable” feel at all.

“compelling character relationships (especially Rey and Kylo Ren“

Kylo and Rey is the only compelling character relationship in the movie, and even then, Rey deciding to sacrifice her life because she had a random glimpse of Kylo turning makes no sense, especially since she was just calling him a murderous snake just scenes before.

“meaningful character struggles (even Rey and Rose, who I didn't like in this movie learned how to become even better heroes)“

The only “struggle” was Kylo’s. We knew Rey wasn’t going to turn because her whole reason for going to Kylo in the first place was to redeem him, and I can’t think of any other struggles the movie had that were “meaningful”.

“and it reified the mysteriousness of the Force (with new abilities, but mainly because they more or less scrapped the idea you have to be tied to a bloodline to be strong in the Force“

The movie didn’t showcase any new abilities. We’ve already seen projection like Luke did in both Canon and Legends before. And no, it didn’t get rid of the idea of being tied to a bloodline in order to be strong. What bloodline was Yoda from? What bloodline was Mace from? What bloodline was Obi-Wan from? What bloodline was Sidious from? We’ve seen Force users that are stein in the Force without being tied to a bloodline, so no, this movie didn’t do away with that.

“Even though I'm not a fan of how Rey is so powerful with so little training, this change to the canon nonetheless re-sparked the mystery and wonder of how the Force works) - something we had previously lost due to the introduction of the midichlorians“

It didn’t re-spark anything and nobody lost the mystery and wonder of true Force because of midichlorians. If that were true, all these novels and comics and games that heavily feature the Force wouldn’t have been so popular. I didn’t feel rejuvenated about the Force at all after this movie, andorerally none of my friends did either, those that liked and those that disliked the movie.

“The expectations that were set up in the trailers and promotional materials were genius because it made you think one thing was going to happen, but instead something entirely different was given to us”

Yeah and that “something entirely different” is the problem. I watched the trailers after I watched the movie and they gave a completely different feel to the movie than what I actually got while watching it.

“That's the definition of a good twist.“

No it’s not. Avengers Age of Ultron had the same thing and wasn’t received well and is the least liked of all Avenger/MCU team up movies.

“Kylo holding his hand out after Rey said "I need someone to show me my place in all this" was ingenious because it made it seem like Rey was going to join Kylo. Ben DID try to show Rey her place in the movie, but we were taken aback by the moment and context of the trailer”

Rey went to Kylo with one goal in mind: to bring him back to he light. It’s not obvious to see that she wouldn’t want to go with him and rule next to him, and I wasn’t surprised when she turned him down.

“There were other massive theories about the movie that people thought were going to be true, but the fact that all those things turned out not to be true were what made this movie all the more exciting. You had no idea what was going to happen next. Unpredictability is the hallmark of a good story, and TLJ portrayed this magnificently.”

You can think that, sure, but it’s not true. There’s a reason so many fans didn’t like this movie, and it isn’t because “it’s not my Luke!” or other reasons like that.

“But if you heard that there was gonna be a new character arc for Luke Skywalker, wouldn't you be excited? That would mean more growth for Luke, more relatability to him, and more love for him. The fact that he went through the horror of seeing his students get killed and his temple being burnt down is beyond heartbreaking. But the fact that he still had hope inside of him - the fact that he overcame that great grief and still came back to help the Resistance and become one with the Force at the end makes him all the more likable.“

Wrong and wrong. Luke’s new character arc has him running away from his problems and letting the universe clean up after him, resulting in the death of two of his good friends and thousands, even millions more. He didn’t still have “hope” in him, that’s just false. If he sill had hope in him, he wouldn’t have abandoned the galaxy, he wouldn’t have abandoned his family, he would have trained Rey the minute she stepped onto his island, etc. etc. Him helping the Resistance escape at the end *did not* make him more likable to me, and he’s my favorite SW character.

“Sure, there could have been other ways to go about character development for him, but this was so compelling and dramatic that it made the payoff of him coming back to save the Resistance at the end all the more awesome.“

When even Mark Hamill disagrees with that logic, you know it’s wrong.

That's fair, and ultimately relativism takes hold in stories and how we react to them.

I never got to see the original movies in theatres because I was born in 1985. I grew up watching them over and over on VHS on a small 13" 4:3 television and yet they held a type of spell on my childhood. I was so excited when they released the special editions on the big screen...only to find I disliked nearly every change or addition making them inferior despite the enhanced visuals.

Then I shifted over to Phantom Menace. Never in my life have I anticipated a movie so much. I would finally have my Star Wars moment...only to find it lacking. The rest of the prequels had a similar feeling of powering through because it's Star Wars. I rationalized "Maybe it's Lucas having too much control" and what I really wanted was to see what would come next rather than what happened before.

Disney buys the brand and new trilogy and again I'm excited. New director, new and returning characters, unknown story, it was all exciting again with possibilities. Yet again I find myself not enjoying much of anything about Star Wars. It feels so miserable and hopeless to me.

At this point all I want is the original trilogy on Blu Ray. I haven't been able to even go back to watch these beloved classics for a decade because my VHSs died and you can't buy the original cuts anywhere.

I appreciate your kind words, you seem a nice fellow and I don't want to take enjoyment from others. I'm not a fan anymore, I can't call myself that when I dislike almost everything Star Wars now. It belongs to you, I have to go elsewhere and find something else I enjoy.