Should Vader's prime be pre suit or post suit

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Frozen

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Frozen  Online

Poll Should Vader's prime be pre suit or post suit (44 votes)

Pre suit 36%
Post suit 64%

In old Legends continuinity, it was firmly established that Vader was at the peak of his powers in ROTS pre suit. Knightfall Vader is usually seen as him at his best.

Disney continuity on the other hand is completely different. Vader surpasses his ROTS self a mere 5 years after ROTS, and he is nearing his prime in ANH (whereas in Legends, he was arguably at his weakest there).

Personally I prefer Vader being stronger post suit. I like that Disney buffed him and treated him as a demi god of sorts.

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NovaPrime2

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That scan is awesome! I don't know too much about SW but I'd say post.

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Greysentinel365

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The entire point of Anakins story is that he makes a deal with the devil and loses everything

Having him come out the other side the “bestest badass one liner dropping guy” misses the point of the character.

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DarthAdi

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#4 DarthAdi  Online

I like KFV to be more powerful. It makes more sense for the story imo and this way we don't have nonsensical scaling like ROTJ Luke>KFV.

That being said, I still like Vader to be badass and powerful, not some sub TPM Kenobi fodder.

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Frozen

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#5 Frozen  Online

The entire point of Anakins story is that he makes a deal with the devil and loses everything

Having him come out the other side the “bestest badass one liner dropping guy” misses the point of the character.

He still lost his potential in canon, its just that he surpassed his pre suit self. It's hardly a new concept either (various C-canon sources in Legends had him surpass his ROTS self. But as we know they are overruled by G canon).

I can see the argument that his prime should be ROTS. But having him so weak he is sub TPM Kenobi (something I don't buy into but that's another debate) is shit storytelling IMO.

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Frozen

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#6  Edited By Frozen  Online

@darthadi said:

I like KFV to be more powerful. It makes more sense for the story imo and this way we don't have nonsensical scaling like ROTJ Luke>KFV.

That being said, I still like Vader to be badass and powerful, not some sub TPM Kenobi fodder.

Fair.

On the one hand I like Luke scaling because I love Luke. On the other hand, it doesn't make that much sense.

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Rhubarb

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Eh i personally prefer the argument for post suit, but both viewpoints are valid.

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Wolfrazer

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@frozen said:

(various C-canon sources in Legends had him surpass his ROTS self. But as we know they are overruled by G canon).

So then why are we following what Lucas said if the writers didn't have to? Even then Lucas saw the EU as separate from his movies, he could just be referring to his movies in those instances. Not that I agree with the interpretation of what he said, especially since he's contradicted himself.

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Frozen

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#9 Frozen  Online

@frozen said:

(various C-canon sources in Legends had him surpass his ROTS self. But as we know they are overruled by G canon).

So then why are we following what Lucas said if the writers didn't have to? Even then Lucas saw the EU as separate from his movies, he could just be referring to his movies in those instances. Not that I agree with the interpretation of what he said, especially since he's contradicted himself.

I would prefer not to follow his words, but there is a dumb LFL policy in place for Legends which means he takes priority.

So glad canon doesn't have that.

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Wolfrazer

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@frozen: So don't? If the writers didn't have to, why should we?

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BOC

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Not a Star Wars debater, but of the levels I've seen him argued at, I think suit Vader being sub-TPM Kenobi is the best thematically.

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Frozen

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#12 Frozen  Online

@boc said:

Not a Star Wars debater, but of the levels I've seen him argued at, I think suit Vader being sub-TPM Kenobi is the best thematically.

1) He isn't sub TPM Kenobi, but defo not getting into that shit again

2) I wouldn't even see how that's good thematically. Just seems dumb tbh

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BOC

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@frozen:

1) He isn't sub TPM Kenobi, but defo not getting into that shit again

I mean, I have no real clue. I just used common arguments I see to outline what I'm selecting from.

2) I wouldn't even see how that's good thematically. Just seems dumb tbh

Why's that?

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Frozen

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#14  Edited By Frozen  Online

@boc: Because Vader should still be powerul and intimidating. Making him below Padawan Kenobi is quite lame and insulting. I think they could make him a shadow of his pre suit self without making him that weak, as DarthAdi said. There's also the fact that Vader hunts down prequel era Jedi, which would necessitate him being quite powerful.

Disney continuinity just went the way of making him >>> ROTS Anakin, which tbf I find refreshing because they get the intimidating aspect down.

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Kirkseven

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He's just different.

Comparing Anakin to Suit Vader is like comparing a Ninja to a Bull, sure one can be accurately stated as being stronger, faster, more powerful etc. However that doesn't make it an easier opponent than the ninja per say.

I'm sure Anakin would fare better against certain characters compared to suited Vader and vice versa.

Treating them like different characters is the best approach imo.

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alextheboss

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I think as a whole post suite should be better. He is way more experienced and level headed, and a lot more knowledgeable on the dark side. I don't think he should be a crazy amount stronger though. Pre suit Vader would also have some advantages as well, like being more mobile/agile, and arguably faster.

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Lord_God

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I heavily dislike the idea that Suited Vader is a crippled old man who can barely fight compared to 'real jedi', with some even having him below TPM Kenobi. I think however that the intent in Lucas' era was that Vader was a shadow of his former self and Legends seems to mostly support this notion. Canon seems to very much be taking the opposing stance. Personally I think that his Prime should be Suited force wise but still an inferior duelist, but I can definitely understand those who prefer for Pre Suit Vader to be his prime force wise as it probably makes more sense within the context of GL's Star Wars.

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BOC

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@frozen:

Because Vader should still be powerul and intimidating. Making him below Padawan Kenobi is quite lame and insulting. I think they could make him a shadow of his pre suit self without making him that weak, as DarthAdi said. There's also the fact that Vader hunts down prequel era Jedi, which would necessitate him being quite powerful.

Both of which can still be true. Being below Kenobi - who was one of the best of that time - doesn't make him terribly weak. He's still powerful and intimidating; just a fraction of what he was.

Disney continuinity just went the way of making him >>> ROTS Anakin, which tbf I find refreshing because they get the intimidating aspect down.

Like grey mentioned, I think having Anakin lose his "full potential", but still come out far stronger than ever, kinda cheapens the point of him losing everything.

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Frozen

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#19  Edited By Frozen  Online

@boc: I don't see why he has to be below Padawan Kenobi for it to be thematically sound. It doesn't make much sense to me.

Even if Vader was only around the level of Dooku (which is where I place suited Vader in Legends), that's still a shadow of what he was. Vader in ROTS was on ROTS Yoda and ROTS Sidious tier. After, being at the level of Dooku would mean he was still far weaker than what he was and what he could have been.

Anakin still lost his potential in canon too. He's nowhere near what he could have been. He was destined to be above Sidious, but in canon he would never surpass OT Sidious.

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Insanity_

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Vader being better in the suit makes Vader so much more badass and interesting. Him getting worse flies in the face of how SW works, and honestly, whole reason Vader's badass is cause of what his suit did to him. It made him calculcating, far more strategic and adaptable as well as powerful.

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TakenStew22

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#21  Edited By TakenStew22

I don't get why people think post-suit Vader is any weaker than pre-suit Vader. If anything the suit enhanced him. Was even able to withstand lightsaber blows which I don't think he can without the armor.

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Frozen

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#22 Frozen  Online

I don't get why people think post-suit Vader is any weaker than pre-suit Vader. If anything the suit enhanced him.

In Legends, he was far stronger pre suit as of ROTS.

In Canon, he is confirmed more powerul post suit.

The original explanation from Lucas was that hjs power in the force was diminished after his injuries. In any case, he lost his potential in both Legends and canon.

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BOC

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@frozen:

I don't see why he has to be below Padawan Kenobi for it to be thematically sound. It doesn't make much sense to me.

He doesn't. And I agree with the rest of your post - it's still tragic. I said it was best if he's below TPM Kenobi, IMO. The farther he is from what he was, the more compelling the tragedy. I only draw the line around there because he still needs to be reasonably powerful and intimidating.

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Frozen

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#24 Frozen  Online

@boc: Then that depends on what you define as reasonably powerful I guess.

I mean, TPM Kenobi might be powerul but I don't know how that could work when it comes to hunting prequel era jedi. For example, in canon Vader had a fight with Koth (former jedi on the jedi council) who was confirmed more powerul than his ROTS self. Koth gave him a good fight but couldn't beat him. If Vader was TPM Kenobi level, he would have been annihilated. Vader being below padawans isn't something that sits right with me but opinions I guess.

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DarthAdi

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#25  Edited By DarthAdi  Online

@boc:

But why is TPM Kenobi the breaking point? It feels arbitrary. I think for most people Vader being sub TPM Kenobi would greatly affect his credibility as a villain.

I don't even know why his position relative to PT characters makes him more tragic. It's not like he cares how he compares in power to them and it's not like being more powerful than someone like Qui-Gon Jinn makes him feel better about his shity life as Sidious' lapdog.

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DatStupidGuy

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#26  Edited By DatStupidGuy

Post-Suit Vader should have definitely surpassed his Mustafar self in power, but not to the point where he can achieve his full potential due to the obvious loss of his limbs. It makes far more sense both thematically and logically given the amount of knowledge and non-stop fighting he was accumulating up until ROTJ.

A bit sad to see though, that the whole "Vader is Sub-TPM Kenobi" argument made it here.

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Frozen

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#27 Frozen  Online

@darthadi:

Post-Suit Vader should have definitely surpassed his Mustafar self in power, but not to the point where he can achieve his full potential due to the obvious loss of his limbs. It makes far more sense both thematically and logically given the amount of knowledge and non-stop fighting he was accumulating up until ROTJ.

A bit sad to see though, that the whole "Vader is Sub-TPM Kenobi" argument made it here.

He's not and will never be sub TPM Kenobi. This argument originated as a meme from SI.

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CocaColaMan

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I don't know the canon answer. I'd give Darth Vader better strength, durability/endurance, and skill with a saber and force while Anakin would have better speed, agility, and force power.

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Frozen

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#29 Frozen  Online

I don't know the canon answer. I'd give Darth Vader better strength, durability/endurance, and skill with a saber and force while Anakin would have better speed, agility, and force power.

If you're asking what the answer is for where they are at in canon - suited Vader is confirmed stronger in the force but less skilled with a saber. He would comfortably beat his pre suit self.

My question is mores where would you want his prime to be.

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@frozen said:
@cocacolaman said:

I don't know the canon answer. I'd give Darth Vader better strength, durability/endurance, and skill with a saber and force while Anakin would have better speed, agility, and force power.

If you're asking what the answer is for where they are at in canon - suited Vader is confirmed stronger in the force but less skilled with a saber. He would comfortably beat his pre suit self.

My question is mores where would you want his prime to be.

The second sentence is pretty much how I'd write it

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blackspidey2099

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@boc said:

Not a Star Wars debater, but of the levels I've seen him argued at, I think suit Vader being sub-TPM Kenobi is the best thematically.

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DarthSuper

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Definitely post-suit.

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w4nkdestroyer

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The entire point of Anakins story is that he makes a deal with the devil and loses everything

Having him come out the other side the “bestest badass one liner dropping guy” misses the point of the character.

This but Vader being sub TPM Kenobi is equally stupid.

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Frozen

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#34 Frozen  Online

@greysentinel365 said:

The entire point of Anakins story is that he makes a deal with the devil and loses everything

Having him come out the other side the “bestest badass one liner dropping guy” misses the point of the character.

This but Vader being sub TPM Kenobi is equally stupid.

I'm not sure when this sub TPM Kenobi meme even began, but it completely poisoned Legends Vader threads, which is a shame.

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DatStupidGuy

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@frozen said:

He's not and will never be sub TPM Kenobi. This argument originated as a meme from SI.

Did it really? If that's the case then that makes it all the more worse lmao. I'm in the SI Discord and there are some people who genuinely believe it to be true, there's even a whole 6 page debate about it on their website as well.

Despite that though, the folks there are genuinely pleasant people to talk with, kind of ironic in a way.

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webinyoureye11

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I like the idea that he was more powerful before, but lacked the experience & focus vader developed.

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RDCDesmond

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#37  Edited By RDCDesmond

He was more agile and faster than pre Vader suit

But he is physically stronger and more powerful in the suit after years of adapting to it and years of growing more powerful in the force

But a hypothetical version of Anakin that beat Obi Wan Would’ve grown way more stronger in the force than his counterpsrt with the suit did. He also would’ve been able to use lightning force Spam eventually after a few years. All in all hunting and killing the remaining jedi that survived order 66, would’ve been easier for him. And he probably eventually would’ve grown enough power to overthrow Emperor.

Anakin was becoming such a powerhouse the suit hindered him but even after years of training he still became stronger but lacked the speed

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noobsnowman

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I havent debated SW in ages. but I'm very certain that pre suit Vader is much more powerful than post suit Vader. At least when Anakin tapped into the dark side.

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Frozen

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#39 Frozen  Online

I havent debated SW in ages. but I'm very certain that pre suit Vader is much more powerful than post suit Vader. At least when Anakin tapped into the dark side.

He was in Legends. In Canon post suit is confirmed more powerul.

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Greysentinel365

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Greysentinel365

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Also since this seems to have turned into a TPM Duo > Vader salt thread. The argument made its first major appearance here

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/battles-7/cav-super-fight-iii-revan-darthant66-vs-darth-vade-1967266/#js-message-20756389

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incursion2

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#42  Edited By incursion2

I like Post suit Vader being more powerful, its better than legends where Vader was less powerful then KFV. It makes sense that he would be more powerful being more experienced, calculating and more in tune with the darkside

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buildhare

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Pre-Suit is the only answer that makes sense. He was a shade of his former self (in every sense).

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Necromancer76

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Pre-Suit.

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Void_Reborn

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I'm of the same opinion as @greysentinel365 for the most part, but I don't like the idea of post-suit Vader being an absolute cripple and pure garbage in every way compared to his pre-suit counterpart in his prime. Anakin's full potential far, far exceeds even what KFV stands at and accomplished. Even if he lost nearly all of it at Mustafar he shouldn't become a husk and shadow of his former self afterwards. Having some time before he replenishes his power to the level of ROTS Anakin makes sense, and he can go a little bit above that as well to remain a formidable fighter.

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Frozen

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#46 Frozen  Online

@w4nkdestroyer: Complain to the creator who said it.

Lucas didn't say that. But putting it aside for a minute, you know you're allowed to think for yourself right? You don't have to be a robot and repeat everything Lucas said? Sometimes the man had shit ideas - various aspects of the prequels being proof.

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Greysentinel365

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#47  Edited By Greysentinel365  Online

@frozen: Except he did. And also that is how it works. The internals at Lucasfilm have said this directly

Question: I see. So KOTOR is a part of continuity then, despite all its contradictions. Could you put in the Holocron that Vader can still be the most powerful Jedi, and can use force lightning? Because frankly, I haven't seen any argument to suggest otherwise than "GL says so." Of course, his word is high up on the list, but the films sort of contradict him on both issues.

Answer: “GL says so" is all the argument that is needed, as the films DON'T directly contradict him. We never see Force Lightning used by a cybernetic character, and we have no evidence from the films comparing Vader's abilities before and after his encounter on Mustafar. Regardless of how well-reasoned your inferences are, they're wrong in the face of Lucas's fiat without direct, incotrovertible G-level evidence to the contrary.

Pablo Hildago in SW.Com interview

So no. GL says so is literally how the SW universe works and by proxy the exercise of debating it.

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Frozen

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#48 Frozen  Online

@greysentinel365: I think you completely missed the point.

If Lucas says something, then yes defer it for a debate. But in the context of your personal preference in storytelling, you are completely entitled to think what you want. You are allowed to say that "I think this character or this plot point sucks". Lucas had some shit ideas.

For example, some of Anakin's dialogue in ROTS completely sucked IMO. And his turn to the dark side was rushed. Lucas may try and explain why he made it that way, but that doesn't change the fact that I think it sucked. You are allowed to criticise him you know...

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Greysentinel365

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@frozen: Yeah. And I do when I disagree. Concerning Anakin's arc thematically I agree with him

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noobsnowman

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@frozen: Fair. I personally could care less about Canon anyways. Disney ruined SW for us all.