Should filonis statements be used in SW battle debating?

I am aware that what he says isn't supposed to be canon, but that intent will be in the things he makes, so should his statements be canon?

Depends.

They can be used as evidence, but not conclusive proof.

Only if I agree with what he says. Haha.

I’m joking. Intent is important since feats can be subjective.

@ieatnettles: @alextheboss: @lightordark: It depends.

Filoni has stated that Grand Inquisitor is equal to early war Ventress. If we take this at face value, then ESB Luke > early war Ventress, who can fight Anakin and Obi.

@frozen: nah he didn't say grand inquisitor was equal, he meant that they're similar in their roles

The only thing I disagree with from what filoni said is that the only two people who could fight ashoka are Vader and the emperor, when an inquisitor was able to match her for a bit, and maul, obi wan and Yoda are still alive

The interesting part about this is how incredibly far below early war Ventress, Obi Wan, and Anakin are next to Yoda and Dooku.

Yoda in episode one of TCW pulls Ventress’s sabers out of her hands effortlessly. Dooku does it much later in TCW, too.

Yet as of ROTS, a mere three year period, I see users making arguments that Kenobi and Anakin are near or equal to ROTS Yoda.

@lightordark:

Ventress in late war is a threat to Sidious. Sidious also puts her dual blade above his own.

Which makes no sense considering Dooku is still clearly above her in DD.

Exactly. The only person that should have a massive amount of power growth is anakin, not dooku, obi wan, Yoda sidious and general grevious, as people say that Anakin doubled in power and then scale everyone up to him, basing all of it off one singular quote from the second or third most arrogant SW character

Late war ventress got beaten by savage opress

In pure skill maybe her duel blades are above his own, but factor in physicals, force aug and force power sidious low diffs

Also as lightordark put it ventress wasn't even a threat to dooku in DD, so I don't know how she's a threat to sidious

No lol

@ieatnettles: Context matters. Maul and Inquisitors were amped when facing Ahsoka on Malachor. Unamped inquisitors are complete fodders to Ahsoka. And the reason why Filoni didn't mention Obi and Yoda is because they are on the same side and would have no reason to fight.

More like "Should filonis statements be used in SW battle debating?" or no

Yes but only to show intent.

Should the creative direrctor of LFLs words be taken into account?

Uh yeah a little bit.

@gaoron: I'm not referring to ahsoka struggling with the inquisitors on malachor. I'm referring to her struggling with them on that planet where the inquisitors were trying to steal babies

Also filoni said maul was a Vader teir threat so he contradicted himself

@rajjarsalt: nope, filonis... different

@ieatnettles:

He likened GI to early Ventress.

What was the exact quote?

I thought it was more 'GI is like ventress' than 'gi is on ventress' level'

The reason I was unsure is cus he contradicts himself sometimes, so his intent is always a bit unclear

@ieatnettles: He only "contradicts" himself when placed under hyperspecific battle board terminology or when he contradicts someones favourite scaling chain.

He's actually quite consistent.

Filoni is WoG. If Star Warriors can doubt him then any lesser sources become suspect as well

Also filoni said maul was a Vader teir threat so he contradicted himself

That's not contradicted anywhere. The only way you get that is with debate bro "twenty ragdoll gaps growth Vader above MFV" via comics and such which Filoni and the main story of SW don't care about as anything more than easter egg potential.

@frozen: What he said was the GI wouldn't do so well during the clone wars, and he would maybe be in the Ventress realm, but probably below. He is probably very similar to Luminara. She was near early CW Ventress level but slightly below. And really that Luke beating the GI feat is questionable since it was just a ghost. iirc Luke was outskilled and won via power anyways, which is fine.

@alextheboss:

Nothing in the comic stated ghost GI was weaker. Spirits in canon can become stronger. Sith spirit of Exim Panshard was trapped in a mask and stated that his power grew over time as a spirit. So the precedent is there. Unless otherwise stated, I'd assume its GI at his established power level. He fought Luke in a place imbued with dark energy. He was better in sabers but got one shot by the force. And when pressed on why he lost, he cried to Vader that Luke was "Strong. So strong". Which is straight up admission that Luke was just too powerful.

@greysentinel365: tbf he's really only been inconsistent like once, and it was regarding ahsoka, who is his favorite character

@rajjarsalt: yep, that is true

It kind of is contradicted though, by himself. He said was in the the Vader realm of threats, and then he went on to say the only people who could match ahsoka at the time of rebels were Vader and the emperor

Exactly my point. They don't care about anything apart from easter eggs so should they be used in SW debating?

@ieatnettles:

He said was in the the Vader realm of threats, and then he went on to say the only people who could match ahsoka at the time of rebels were Vader and the emperor

Yeah because people only ever see the battle board snippet and don't check the source. Filoni is talking about how they couldn't have Ahsoka present throughout the entire season because, as the main enemy is the Empire, they'd need Vader or the Emperor to match her.

He's explaining why she isn't tagging along for the "issue of the week". Of which Maul is not. And even then its in the context of them talking about how they were going to handle her in the first day in the writing room of season 2. Where naturally Maul wasn't even an option for them yet. So the quote doesn't even remotely imply this.

Exactly my point. They don't care about anything apart from easter eggs so should they be used in SW debating?

It depends whether you just want your fav character to win brownie points on a board or if you're actually trying to get proper answer to a theoretical match up. If its the second then aligning your views with those making the material with the most canonical weight ensures your answers are the closest to the intended truth. In which case yes, Filoni and other creatives opinions should have heavy weight on them.

Agreed

@frozen: Even if we argue he is the same power, he is a ghost without a real body. Being hit by a force user with greater force power than him could just disrupt his ability to keep his form. I agree we can probably use that to scale that Luke above him in power, but I don't think we can use it to just say Luke would one shot an alive GI. He could break his force barrier, sure, but unless he his his head and gets knocked out, he should get back up.

Nah, nothing in the text or any supplementary material even suggests his body was weakened. That is just head canon. If he's one shotted in his spirit form then in his "real" form the equivalent would happen. This is consistent with GI himself stating that Luke was overwhelmingly powerful.

@frozen:

Nah, nothing in the text or any supplementary material even suggests his body was weakened.

His body isn't weakened, it doesn't exist.

That is just head canon.

I'm not arguing that it's definitely the case, just that we can't compare a spirit to a real body.

If he's one shotted in his spirit form then in his "real" form the equivalent would happen.

You just made a positive claim. You now have to back this up with evidence.

This is consistent with GI himself stating that Luke was overwhelmingly powerful.

I already agreed the feat wasa proof Luke was stronger than the GI in the force.

@alextheboss:

If you're not arguing its definitely the case, then I don't see the point. The comic presents the GI as being a test for Luke and he is entrusted to guard the temple. Luke wins and GI attributes his loss to Luke being far too strong, rather than any limitations on his body. So what we are presented with is clear cut. I didn't make a positive claim, you're the one who invoked his spirit form as being a relevant factor in the fight.

@frozen: Yes, I think the intent is to show Luke>GI. I just don't think we should try to use the scene to justify Luke would just one shot him in a fight.

Unless we get an actual statement saying he's less capable than before or weaker, I see no reason why we can't take this showing at face value for how it would go down.

Luke won once he got an opening and then used his force advantage, he can't always just instantly one shot him

@ieatnettles:

Luke won once he got an opening and then used his force advantage, he can't always just instantly one shot him

So? A win is a win. He legitimately defeated GI, which GI conceded was because Luke was “strong. So strong“. If they fought again, he’d get the opening again. GI has no answer to his force abuse per his own concession.

I'm not disagreeing that the GI is <Luke, I'm just saying Luke can't instant stomp him

@ieatnettles:

If he uses the force, GI has no counter.

@frozen: but he needs an opening, we see that if force users are rlly pressured in dueling it's hard for them to abuse the force

Absolutely.

@ieatnettles:

What makes you think he wouldn’t get an opening in a second fight? Nothing to suggest this wouldn’t be the case, especially considering his force superiority is vast. Luke was winning when GI had a single saber and the dual blade took him by surprise. In a second fight, a double blade wouldn’t be as much of a surprise. GI conceded himself that Luke was far too strong with the force for him.

So ESB Luke can’t “stomp” him but he’s winning decisively. Current post ESB Luke stomps him.

Argument from ignorance. Your whole premise is based off assumptions and all of your counters have either been arguments from ignorance or arguments from incredulity.

@alextheboss:

You’re the one purposefully ignoring the evidence and relying on head canon.

Here are the actual facts:

• Fact - there’s no evidence that GI being in a spirit form weakened him. This is not presented or even remotely suggested by the comic itself. GI was entrusted by Vader with an important task and fought Luke in a place imbued with Darkside energy
• Fact - spirits in canon can grow stronger over time. This is explicitly stated to be the case for Sith Exim Panshard
• Fact - GI was swiftly defeated by Luke once Luke invoked the force. Skywalker Family at War remarks that Luke “vanquished” the GI. To ‘vanquish’ is to defeat thoroughly
• Fact - The GI, per his own words, lost because Luke was much too powerful for him

These are all facts. It is also ironic that you’re the one who is making an argument from incredulity. Your entire argument is based on the belief that ghost GI is lesser, with zero actual evidence. If you have actual evidence for your premise, feel free to let me know.

Well, like George Lucas before him, Dave Filoni serves as an authoritative source of information regarding stories under his influence -- the Ahsoka show, for example.