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#1 Posted by Heatforce (5912 posts) - - Show Bio

on Captain America being evil.

I thought Spencer would start backpedaling but I guess sales must be pretty good. It's still a travesty though for Cap's fans, sorry peeps.

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#2 Posted by Lvenger (36335 posts) - - Show Bio

Even if the story were good, Spencer has committed the cardinal sin of writing comics, tampering with the core of the characters. Turning Captain America, the paragon of freedom and virtue into a secret agent for Hydra all along has turned out even worse than Superior Spider-Man. Because where SpOck acted the way he did because Octavious was in control, not Peter, Hydra Cap is supposed to be Cap's original character all along. The 50-60 years of comics where Cap is the very definition of an American superhero alongside Superman are tainted by Spencer's retcon.

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#3 Posted by Ready_4_Madness (15411 posts) - - Show Bio

I lol'd when his plan was going so well

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#4 Posted by Mooty_Pass (9840 posts) - - Show Bio

This was very interesting.

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#5 Posted by Heatforce (5912 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger: Yeah it does seem like this idea would have been more appreciated in a What If. It could have been Marvel's version of Injustice or something similar. That stated, I do hear good things about the story but at the same time, I wouldn't let my kid run around in a Captain America t-shirt right now, unless it's MCU Cap.

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#6 Posted by Rubear (4643 posts) - - Show Bio
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#7 Edited by EarthsMightiest (2765 posts) - - Show Bio

It was a good start. Here's hoping it lasts.

Hail Hydra!

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#8 Edited by TrueMarvel (578 posts) - - Show Bio

This is the reason why marvel comics has received so much hate in recent years.

There is a difference between Deconstructing a character to build him back up stronger. And ruining a characters legacy with no end game. Marvel doesn't know the difference. This is essentially Captain America's One More Day. This is close to when marvel tried to make Ben Reilly the true spider-man. Except this time, the threads are so dug in, even after this is over, Cap's core character is destroyed. What a disrespectful way to depict his legacy, considering Captain America was literally created as propaganda during the world war.How can Cap ever stand alongside superman as america's heroes?

What is the overall narrative end goal to this? It destroys the core of the character instead of adding to it. It'd be like instead of Bruce Wayne watching his parents murder. Bruce Wayne killed them himself to get his fortune faster but the shock of the deed made him forget and repress the memory. The core of the character is tainted and literally unfixable unless you reboot the entire universe.

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#9 Posted by MAZAHS117 (12337 posts) - - Show Bio

I just want EVERYONE in the Marvel U to be whacked and then we can start over.

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#10 Edited by Mooty_Pass (9840 posts) - - Show Bio

After all this is said and done and the punishment give to steve. I don't want ANY Superhero forgiving Steve any time soon. I say that because the story wouldn't mean anything if Characters didn't have lasting impression on what happened. No Superhero should trust or like Steve anymore after this.

Anyway this was very good, sucks that Cap was a Hydra Agent ALL a long and was never a good guy. Wow Marvel your changing characters backstories left and right.

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#11 Edited by IceDemonKing (9982 posts) - - Show Bio

Dang it. The story wasn't to bad, it was pretty good some parts. I'll see if I will keep reading it. Just all the cap stuff was weird.

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#12 Posted by RabumAlal (4876 posts) - - Show Bio

I honestly enjoyed this.

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#13 Posted by TrueMarvel (578 posts) - - Show Bio

I honestly enjoyed this.

I enjoy the story but this attack on Captain America's legacy is UNNECESSARY. It didn't have to be done to make this story work.

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#14 Edited by Rubear (4643 posts) - - Show Bio

How can Cap ever stand alongside superman as america's heroes?

I remember how in JLA/Avengers Cap called Superman fashist. Oh, the irony.

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#15 Posted by FirestormFate1919 (6212 posts) - - Show Bio

@rubear said:
@truemarvel said:

How can Cap ever stand alongside superman as america's heroes?

I remember how in JLA/Avengers Cap called Superman fashist. Oh, the irony.

I don't remember this, do you recall the context?

I feel like even in their respective primes Superman is a much better depiction of american values. He might not wear flags all over his body, but his motives seem more consistently good in both means and ends.

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#16 Posted by Ready_4_Madness (15411 posts) - - Show Bio
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#17 Posted by Lvenger (36335 posts) - - Show Bio

@heatforce: It might have been a good What if? but now it's part of the Marvel canon, it's a part of Cap's history. Even if Steve gets redeemed, him being an agent of Hydra will be a part of his comics.

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#18 Edited by laughingbatman (1827 posts) - - Show Bio

I just want EVERYONE in the Marvel U to be whacked and then we can start over.

Deadpool is going to kill the Marvel Universe again. Maybe this will be there blank slate to start over lol

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#19 Edited by Mark_Stephen (2616 posts) - - Show Bio

I think Spenser is more concerned with telling people not to trust those in power, especially those to whom too much trust is given. In a way this storyline works only because it's Steve. It works in a deeper way than cw1 where Tony became a fascist or cw2 where Carol become a facist or when the Illuminati became a super villain group, exiled the Hulk and then started to blow up planets full of innocent people. When you think about it Steve is about the only major league original hero of the mu that they haven't turned into a bad guy yet. As to the aftermath... Well they didn't think that through with Tony or Carol or the Illuminati, just a few weepy issues and everyone pretty much accepted them back. A hero doing terrible things in the mu has about as much staying power as a death in the marvel universe. A year, two at the most and a few more grand events and this will be just a memory that no one talks about. Also he's given Steve the out of mind control, which is something that Tony and Carol didn't have. Ultimately to marvel I don't believe they care one whit about Steve's character and the damage done too it. So long as this event sells they'll have no reason to. In the meantime this is Spenser's soap box and in my opinion this is everything he thinks about America, Freedom and Liberty. Hopefully we won't have a reporter lecturing Steve about how great America is with Facebook or Mephisto showing up to barter for a better reality in exchange for something.

At any rate marvel's greed has priced me out buying this anyway. I can't afford the main title, let alone the dozens of tie-ins it'll take to get the entire story.

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#20 Posted by Spambot (9339 posts) - - Show Bio

While I agree its a horrible twist there are always ways of retconning things like this to revert the thing in question. I mean we are talking comics here, the same medium where nearly every hero has died and been brought back to life multiple times. There is always a way to say 'well that's not what really happened here'. A retcon may not even be necessary if they plan to explain it away before the story line is over.

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#21 Edited by Asgaard (4373 posts) - - Show Bio
@lvenger said:

Even if the story were good, Spencer has committed the cardinal sin of writing comics, tampering with the core of the characters. Turning Captain America, the paragon of freedom and virtue into a secret agent for Hydra all along has turned out even worse than Superior Spider-Man.

Is this true? Not reading marvel for a long time now...

But (following the new retcon/setup) how was Steve Rogers worthy of Mjolnir in 2 different occasions? Its like current marvel editorial doesn't make any effort to respect some continuity key points... In that sense i don't understand how they are thinking that a lot of fans/readers will go back to read/buy their comics just because they will announce them as having some kind of legacy, but in panel we just see the opposite, contradiction after contradiction...

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#22 Posted by Rubear (4643 posts) - - Show Bio

Also he's given Steve the out of mind control, which is something that Tony and Carol didn't have.

Here is thing. He didn't.
In fact in Secret Empire 0 he stated that in original version of reality Axis was winning war, but then Allies made and used... cosmic cube to rewrite it. Because of some magical mumba-jumbo Steve always had a seed of his Hydra agent persona inside him, just waiting to be released... just as Hydra forsaw in this original reality. Don't you get it? According to Spenser Steve is not under mind contron or twisted - according to Spenser agent of Hydra is true presona of Steve.

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#23 Posted by Rubear (4643 posts) - - Show Bio

@asgaard said:
@lvenger said:

Even if the story were good, Spencer has committed the cardinal sin of writing comics, tampering with the core of the characters. Turning Captain America, the paragon of freedom and virtue into a secret agent for Hydra all along has turned out even worse than Superior Spider-Man.

Is this true? Not reading marvel for a long time now...

But (following the new retcon/setup) how was Steve Rogers worthy of Mjolnir in 2 different occasions?

1) According to Spenser in original version of reality Axis was winning war and so Hydra.
2) But then allies used cosmic cube to rewrite reality.
3) True Hydra forsaw it and made some mumbo-jumbo on Steve so he'd have a seed of Hydra agent persona in new reality.
They also forsaw Kobic, Red Skull, rebirth of Captain America and etc...
4) According to Spenser Captain America as paragon of freedom and virtue was false persona made by allies and worthy of Mjolnir.

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#24 Edited by Mark_Stephen (2616 posts) - - Show Bio

@rubear said:
@mark_stephen said:

Also he's given Steve the out of mind control, which is something that Tony and Carol didn't have.

Here is thing. He didn't.

In fact in Secret Empire 0 he stated that in original version of reality Axis was winning war, but then Allies made and used... cosmic cube to rewrite it. Because of some magical mumba-jumbo Steve always had a seed of his Hydra agent persona inside him, just waiting to be released... just as Hydra forsaw in this original reality. Don't you get it? According to Spenser Steve is not under mind contron or twisted - according to Spenser agent of Hydra is true presona of Steve.

Well, we'll see how it turns out. After all treachery and hidden agendas have become marvels stock in trade since civil war 1, their characters are so morally malleable and treacherous that the truly novel plot is when they don't stab each other in the back. Spencer can try to shock as much as he wants, but after Tony created Clor to terrorize and kill other heroes, after the Illuminati blew up a world full of innocent people, after Carol started grabbing people off of the street with no legal due process or respect for civil rights -and was cheered and rewarded for her actions- after all that there is nothing short of Steve raping Wanda that could really shock me. Spencer wants to trash Steve for a story? How is that any different from anything Bendis has written for marvel, or what they did to Peter to get rid of the marriage? Let him have his fun getting everyone angry and getting a pay check to do it. As stated marvel's greed along with the stories mentioned above has pushed me into not buying them, or at least waiting until they hit the dollar or fifty cent bins at the comic book shows. This sort of story will probably be more tolerable at 50 cents when another big event has either reversed or ret-conned it into something different.

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#25 Edited by Mark_Stephen (2616 posts) - - Show Bio

@rubear said:
@asgaard said:
@lvenger said:

Even if the story were good, Spencer has committed the cardinal sin of writing comics, tampering with the core of the characters. Turning Captain America, the paragon of freedom and virtue into a secret agent for Hydra all along has turned out even worse than Superior Spider-Man.

Is this true? Not reading marvel for a long time now...

But (following the new retcon/setup) how was Steve Rogers worthy of Mjolnir in 2 different occasions?

1) According to Spenser in original version of reality Axis was winning war and so Hydra.

2) But then allies used cosmic cube to rewrite reality.

3) True Hydra forsaw it and made some mumbo-jumbo on Steve so he'd have a seed of Hydra agent persona in new reality.

They also forsaw Kobic, Red Skull, rebirth of Captain America and etc...

4) According to Spenser Captain America as paragon of freedom and virtue was false persona made by allies and worthy of Mjolnir.

I guess in trashing Cap Spencer is trying to out do Bendis's trashing of the Scarlet Witch, Hawkeye, Jean and other characters.

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#26 Edited by StormShadow_X (16368 posts) - - Show Bio
@lvenger said:

Even if the story were good, Spencer has committed the cardinal sin of writing comics, tampering with the core of the characters. Turning Captain America, the paragon of freedom and virtue into a secret agent for Hydra all along has turned out even worse than Superior Spider-Man. Because where SpOck acted the way he did because Octavious was in control, not Peter, Hydra Cap is supposed to be Cap's original character all along. The 50-60 years of comics where Cap is the very definition of an American superhero alongside Superman are tainted by Spencer's retcon.

Is it really a retcon though when its clear the cosmic cube has tampered with him?

Unless I'm mistaken.

Online
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#27 Posted by SpitfirePanda (2573 posts) - - Show Bio

Holy menstruation! Also...

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#28 Posted by Batvibe12 (5580 posts) - - Show Bio

The only problem I had was the fact that Steve was always a Hydra Agent and Kobik somehow fixed his memories.

I hope the Living Tribunal fix the Marvel Universe. It needs help!!!!!!!!!!!

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#29 Posted by ManMadeOfKetchup (1207 posts) - - Show Bio

@mazahs117 said:

I just want EVERYONE in the Marvel U to be whacked and then we can start over.

Deadpool is going to kill the Marvel Universe again. Maybe this will be there blank slate to start over lol

Considering the Punisher did it first, I think it'd be more fitting if Frank did it. Punish these characters for their terrible changes lol

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#30 Posted by NewWorldOrder (1776 posts) - - Show Bio

I should hurry up and read this.

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#31 Edited by CassioAug (37 posts) - - Show Bio

Don't you people think they're gonna explain it later in a way that portrays Cap. America as the good guy again? I think they're gonna twist things up a bit and tell that Steve was being controlled or something in these lines.

Haven't read it yet, but I hardly doubt Marvel would detroy Captain America like this. They're aware about how important the character is, and even if they were making more money right now, this clearly would affect their sales negatively in a long run. I don't think they would risk such a thing.

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#32 Posted by TDK_1997 (18634 posts) - - Show Bio

It was a good introduction for the event but it's badly written in terms of characterization of the characters. I am not even talking about that much about Hydra Cap, I am talking about how many characters behave and talk. However, the stupidest thing that I read in this issue was someone saying( I already forgot who it was) that the Chitauri attack is more dangerous than the Annihilation Wave was...like what the hell?!?!

Since I actually enjoyed it quite a bit but there were also moments which I hated I just want to share them with you:

  • Nitro exploding again, why Spencer?
  • Quasar being defeated by one of the battleships of the Chitauri
  • Somehow people are not seeing that Cap is behaving quite differently, just like SpOck
  • The Chitauri actually are super powerful and not cannon fodder as they were always
  • Suddenly Carol Danvers is not the b***h she was a few months ago
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#33 Posted by kgb725 (18390 posts) - - Show Bio

@asgaard: Read the story most people like it and are only stuck on "Cap Can't be the bad guy"