Scott Snyder on The Presence, The Source, The Overvoid, Perpetua, etc

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JOSHN05

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Scott Snyder confirmed some stuff about the new Death Metal canon in this video.

  • The Presence = The Source
  • Vertigo Void = Overvoid
  • Perpetua created the multiverse, not Lucifer and Michael. However, when Perpetua was imprisoned, the multiverse had to be reset, which was what Lucifer and Michael did, or The Presence did.
  • True Form Darkseid exists, with aspects.

What do you guys think?

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hulksmashtoaa

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#2  Edited By hulksmashtoaa

I think that every writer has their own interpretation of events or ideas. For example, if you were to ask these same exact questions to Grant Morrison or Michael Carey, you would get very different answers.

Ultimately, what matters is not what they say, but what has already been depicted and stated on the published comics themselves.

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hulksmashtoaa

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MichaelJulius

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#4  Edited By MichaelJulius

So...I was right then. We just won the day. Well, the war on the Metal series canon anyway.

Skip to 20 minutes in and listen to Scott tell you his Metal series is a rewrite of the DCU Origins, its a retcon and not a replacement that unmakes the older canons.

So we learned that the Presence is the power invoked by the Hands. Who he says are stronger than Perpetua. And the Source is the Overvoid in this series. As I said it was. So now the Crisis Squad members who tried to combat me on this issue of the Overvoid = the Source can take a seat.

The power of the Presence in this canon is The Source. So if you want to link that to the other canon series with scaling, which we shouldn't because the author said its not the same stuff, then that means Mandrakk being the corrupted side of the Source > The Hands > Perpetua

And there goes all the arguments of the users who tried to say otherwise for the last 5 years. I was right the entire time. Scott was adhering to Countdown, where the Source was a Monitor.

The Presence is a Monitor and the strongest Monitor is Mandrakk. So now all the users here who say Lucifer stomps Mandrakk can finally take a vacation.

Mandrakk = the Corrupted side of Overvoid = the Source = the strongest Monitor

No Caption Provided

The opposition cannot say that the Void is the same as the Overvoid because of what Lucifer said in Lucifer issue 11 if you are going to scale and link cosmology.

This is the same page, that shows the Void of Vertigo and the place Lucifer was in with the Aleph are not the same location.

No Caption Provided

White place on top is the Void. Blue place on the bottom is where Lucifer was in the aleph area. Not the same place. And here is Lucifer saying this void is the height of power, the groundwork of existence, total empty nothing.

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

This is the same place that the Angels wanted to absorb and place inside The Silver City

So the CAS/Mandrakk > Perpetua debate is over.

CAS and Mandrakk > Perpetua. Confirmed.

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JOSHN05

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@michaeljulius 20 minutes? The videos only 10 minutes. I think you're talking about the wrong video.

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MichaelJulius

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This video is over an hour long, skip to the 20m mark, Scott confirms his metal series was an intentional rewrite of the DCU Origins as encouraged by Grant and Geoff

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0-YN-JwGhpU&ab_channel=DCComicsNews

@joshn05 said:

@michaeljulius 20 minutes? The videos only 10 minutes. I think you're talking about the wrong video.

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JOSHN05

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@michaeljulius: Ah, so you were talking about a different video. My bad.

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MichaelJulius

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Not sure what you mean, the linked video is the same one I copied here. Both links are the same.

Anyway. So if we want to scale things because I know the Crisis members will be here soon. Let me show you why we just won the day. The Presence is less powerful than Hecate and Upsidedown Man. The Presence was said to live in Fear of the Otherkind.

No Caption Provided

The Otherkind was kept at bay by the Tempus Fuginaut

No Caption Provided

Tempus got one shot by depowered Mandrakk

No Caption Provided

So, we have Confirmation that the corrupted side of the Source is stronger than the Hands and Perpetua, stronger than Lucifer and his brothers, and stronger than all the Endless in this canon.


No Caption Provided

@joshn05 said:

@michaeljulius: Ah, so you were talking about a different video. My bad.

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Deagonx

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its a retcon and not a replacement that unmakes the older canons.

That's what a retcon is, lmao.

So we learned that the Presence is the power invoked by the Hands.

No, we didn't. He said the Presence was responsible for resetting the multiverse, not that it was subservient to the Hands at all. It was, however, equated to the Source, which we know is above the Hands.

then that means Mandrakk being the corrupted side of the Source > The Hands > Perpetua

Mandrakk has never beeen called this.

Scott was adhering to Countdown, where the Source was a Monitor.

This was never stated in Countdown, and Scott never referenced Countdown.

The Presence is a Monitor

Lmfao

the strongest Monitor is Mandrakk.

Mandrakk is just a shard of Mar Novu, he's the strongest shard.

So the CAS/Mandrakk > Perpetua debate is over.

It's been over since it was confirmed that Mandrakk is just a fragment of Mar Novu's power. Perpetua >>>>> Mandrakk.

The Presence is less powerful than Hecate and Upsidedown Man. The Presence was said to live in Fear of the Otherkind.

A villain bragging that God is afraid of him is not evidence lmao.

The Otherkind was kept at bay by the Tempus Fuginaut

Fuginauts plural. Read your own scans.

So, we have Confirmation that the corrupted side of the Source is stronger

This description does not apply to Mandrakk, he has no connection to the Source.

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deactivated-6108c6c162ecc

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The presence cant be retconned

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UltraPhoenix

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#11  Edited By UltraPhoenix

Am I missing something or is this just further confirmation of Source > all else?

(5:10 - 5:15) Presence = Source

(6:00 - 6:09) The Hands called upon or used the Presence to restart the multiverse

(8:04 - 8:12) There's an unseen council (Hands) going further up until you reach the Source, implying that the Source is at the top of the hierarchy

Lucifer already made his own multiverse so it doesn't really detract from his feats, and also tanked a multiversal blast from Michael. The source gave Perpetua the energy needed to make the multiverse, and then later on restarted it, so it's still a powerful being and we know that Perpetua < Hands after imprisonment.

@y3kthunder@kuuzo@rijehu thoughts?

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Y3kthunder

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#12  Edited By Y3kthunder

@ultraphoenix: so actually i was shown this video only a couple of days ago an simply put this video brings a smile to my face.

I know myself and others have been repeatedly saying what's in this video. But unfortunately there were some that simply refused to accept what was literally told to them in the book. So i personally cannot Express how happy i am that this youtuber decided to ask scott these questions an im happy that he took the time to clarify what unfortunately shouldn't have needed more confirmation but regardless im glad he did. An honestly your spot on with your summerization. Of said video

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deactivated-60f4d10418f1d

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That youtuber is smart to throw Lucifer there for Scott to confirm the Vertigo version of creation and connect it's void with DC's overvoid. I think the only new thing here is that Lucifer's events happened after Perpetua's.

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iLambda

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ANGELICA10

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Lol Micheal juilus still spreading his headcanon I see

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jamespacker

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😂😂😂😂

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MichaelJulius

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Anyone who said the white void = the overvoid = the same place lucifer was with the Aleph is 100% a fraud who is trying to censor the comic due to being debunked repeatedly for years.

Here, Lucifer calls the white void the ground floor, the infinite nothing, the nowhere location.

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

In Lucifer issue 11, the same page literally the same page shows the white void the angels are in is a separate place from where Lucifer is currently in the Aleph. So, I don't want to hear this BS that it's the same place.

This is the Void, the white Void of nothing in Vertigo where Creations get laid into place. This is the place where the Pax Dei Hosts were fighting the baby demon and the place they said they would absorb and add to the Silver city.

No Caption Provided

No Caption Provided

This place is the Aleph "zone". It is shown to be a separate place from the place the angels were in. Lucifer is in the Aleph area, the angels are in the void. It is on the same page!

No Caption Provided

Enough of this already.

Mar Novu isn't the Overvoid. Anyone who says Mandrakk is the son of Mar Novu should be considered unserious and purposely trolling to get a rise out of others. Mandrakk is the first son of the Overvoid, not Mar Novu.

First son of the Overvoid means first son.

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Overvoid makes Mandrakk after Mar Novu and Mobius came around. How fragile of a debate counter it is to say Mandrakk is the son of Mar Novu.

Facts remain facts, even when interviewers provide the wrong information to the author live on video.

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Deagonx

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Michael, you're welcome to spam your headcanon all you want, but it wont change that Mandrakk's origin was retconned to him being a fragment of Mar Novu. This was stated on panel by World Forger, and confirmed by the authors.

No Caption Provided

Mandrakk's origin was retconned by DC. You're the only person who hasn't coped with this.

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Y3kthunder

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Bruh i seriously doubt you know what demense means you are using that horribly wrong nothing in that scan implies the angels were gonna absorb the void an place it into the silver city nor that they could. Alls the word means is to stake a claim of property. Meaning the angels could call it heavens property it doesnt change where the void lies lol. On top of that scott literally agrees its the same void.and i second what deagon said.

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Rijehu

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So this confirms all we need to know.

1) The Presence and the Source are the same being, and they are the SUPREME being in the DC creation, not just the multiverse. The Presence is confirmed to be the top dog, above even others beings from the void, and is not limited to Heaven, or any other multiverse in the Omniverse that is DC.

2) Perpetua is apparently inferior to Lucifer and Michael. She created the first multiverse by borrowing the energy of the Presence (Source), but after she sent rogue, Lucifer and Michael were created and imbued with The Presence’s attributes as his tools to create the new multiverse from scratch. Perpetua borrowed his energy, but Michael and Lucifer ARE his power. And the fact that Michael’s power recreated two more creations that rivaled his original (including one Lucifer made from scratch) I’d say that places him well beyond Perpetua.

3) Mandrakk isn’t even close...

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Fax

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In Lucifer issue 11, the same page literally the same page shows the white void the angels are in is a separate place from where Lucifer is currently in the Aleph. So, I don't want to hear this BS that it's the same place.

No Caption Provided

I don't understand who claimed this? Lucifer is standing at the edge of existence, at the source wall and the place where alephs reside. Read swampthing where it's explained better.

This is the Void, the white Void of nothing in Vertigo where Creations get laid into place. This is the place where the Pax Dei Hosts were fighting the baby demon and the place they said they would absorb and add to the Silver city.

Yes it is, also this comic is taking place in dc and not some vertigo comics that are not in dc.

Damn, you just said straight up bull$#@t. Nobody said Alephs were in the void.

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jrupert1

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#22  Edited By jrupert1

@rijehu: Say it louder for the Robot in the back.

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Fax

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Also the void can't be added to the silver city, lol. The silver city is literally floating in heaven, smaller than creation and appearantly they can add the entire overvoid inside Heaven? Damn, Michael, your explanation is 100% correct.

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Rijehu

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@ultraphoenix: It just confirms that The Presence > All.

Lucifer and Michael would certainly scale beyond Perpetua now via feats and function.

They are the power and will of the Presence, his tools of creation, and were created to make and destroy worlds. They were imbued with that power and it’s innate to who and what they are. They ARE his aspects.

Perpetua needed to borrow energy from the Presence to create the original multiverse. She’s not the embodiment of any aspect of the Source. And the fact that Perpetua created a single multiverse with the energy borrowed, yet Michael’s power gave birth to three and Lucifer Will shaped one and created one from scratch, shows the power difference.

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1) so Michael is making random headcanon to support his argument

2) literally saying stuffs that were never mentioned

3) acting like a rat

Damn, Michael is so true

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xearesay

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#27  Edited By xearesay

@hulksmashtoaa: This doesn't really add anything.

1. The Source was already equated with the Presence months ago.

2. The Lucifer and Michael part was just a "what if" type question.

However none of this objects the problem with the Presence being supreme or the thing about creation myths so I’m really unconcerned.

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Enigma22

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How did i miss this video? I'm very glad that Scott Snyder solidified what was already well known by the most of us. The Source/The Presence are at the pinnacle of DC and Perpetua is definitely beneath the Angels.

@michealjulius

Keep being delusional.

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Applekidthethird

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Micheal back at it again with the mental gymnastics. I feel like if a comic page showed the presence literally spanking mandrakk, micheal would still come up with wild theories on how mandrakk's still somehow above the confirmed top dog of DC. Dude lost ALL credibility when he faked that steve orlando interview.

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deactivated-6098713be0993

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Hoo boy, the Mandrakk wank is reaching grasping-at-straws-levels.

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Applekidthethird

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#31  Edited By Applekidthethird

Scott snyder: *literally debunks all of micheal's dumb theories*

Micheal:

Everyone else:

Micheal: sO i WaS rIgHt ThEn

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Scholomance

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this is my favorite head canon now lol

The Presence is a Monitor

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iLambda

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chasekilleen

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I feel like that Michael is just trolling or being sarcastic

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Ghostrider65

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Interesting stuff!

So, Lucifer & Michael < Perpetua confirmed.

Source = Presence confirmed, though it was already the case with Death Metal #1

Lucifer and Michael's Multiverse creation happened after Perpetua's imprisonment.

The reason why Perpetua was diminished was due to her imprisonment in the Source Wall for eons, which reduced the stature and nature she had before.

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legend531

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I feel like that Michael is just trolling or being sarcastic

Micheal back at it again with the mental gymnastics. I feel like if a comic page showed the presence literally spanking mandrakk, micheal would still come up with wild theories on how mandrakk's still somehow above the confirmed top dog of DC. Dude lost ALL credibility when he faked that steve orlando interview.

@enigma22 said:

How did i miss this video? I'm very glad that Scott Snyder solidified what was already well known by the most of us. The Source/The Presence are at the pinnacle of DC and Perpetua is definitely beneath the Angels.

@michealjulius

Keep being delusional.

@deagonx said:

its a retcon and not a replacement that unmakes the older canons.

That's what a retcon is, lmao.

So we learned that the Presence is the power invoked by the Hands.

No, we didn't. He said the Presence was responsible for resetting the multiverse, not that it was subservient to the Hands at all. It was, however, equated to the Source, which we know is above the Hands.

then that means Mandrakk being the corrupted side of the Source > The Hands > Perpetua

Mandrakk has never beeen called this.

Scott was adhering to Countdown, where the Source was a Monitor.

This was never stated in Countdown, and Scott never referenced Countdown.

The Presence is a Monitor

Lmfao

the strongest Monitor is Mandrakk.

Mandrakk is just a shard of Mar Novu, he's the strongest shard.

So the CAS/Mandrakk > Perpetua debate is over.

It's been over since it was confirmed that Mandrakk is just a fragment of Mar Novu's power. Perpetua >>>>> Mandrakk.

The Presence is less powerful than Hecate and Upsidedown Man. The Presence was said to live in Fear of the Otherkind.

A villain bragging that God is afraid of him is not evidence lmao.

The Otherkind was kept at bay by the Tempus Fuginaut

Fuginauts plural. Read your own scans.

So, we have Confirmation that the corrupted side of the Source is stronger

This description does not apply to Mandrakk, he has no connection to the Source.

@rijehu said:

So this confirms all we need to know.

1) The Presence and the Source are the same being, and they are the SUPREME being in the DC creation, not just the multiverse. The Presence is confirmed to be the top dog, above even others beings from the void, and is not limited to Heaven, or any other multiverse in the Omniverse that is DC.

2) Perpetua is apparently inferior to Lucifer and Michael. She created the first multiverse by borrowing the energy of the Presence (Source), but after she sent rogue, Lucifer and Michael were created and imbued with The Presence’s attributes as his tools to create the new multiverse from scratch. Perpetua borrowed his energy, but Michael and Lucifer ARE his power. And the fact that Michael’s power recreated two more creations that rivaled his original (including one Lucifer made from scratch) I’d say that places him well beyond Perpetua.

3) Mandrakk isn’t even close...

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MichaelJulius

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Darkitect01

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chasekilleen

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#39  Edited By chasekilleen

That photoshopped Yahweh photo is cringe...

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Rijehu

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#40  Edited By Rijehu

Drugs. It has to be drugs at this point.

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deactivated-60f4d10418f1d

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@rijehu said:

Drugs. It has to be drugs at this point.

Lol

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Applekidthethird

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Yea Micheal's just trolling now. He knows he's wrong.

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d1vine_

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deactivated-60f4d10418f1d

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@applekidthethird: I think they were trolling from the start, there were times when they said unbelievable stuff like Trigon defeated the Presence, and Michael got one shotted by the Etrigan related character. I don't think they were being serious.

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MichaelJulius

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chasekilleen

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#46  Edited By chasekilleen

Cringe

Is Michael actually trolling now?

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d1vine_

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bro wtf am i reading rn

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Yesh-kun

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So, basically, a confirmed retcon.

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GehennaSheol

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@chasekilleen: I hope so. If he isn't, then he has completely lost his mind at this point.

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lmaolmaolmao

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Michael, making cringe fanfiction won't change reality. Best to accept the facts and move on.