ROTJ Palpatine confirmed as being capable of TROS fleet feat

From the new Timelines book. It explicitly says that after Palpatine uses the dyad to remake his body, he uses his renewed power to attack the fleet with lightning:

"Harnesses the power of the dyad in the Force to remake his organic body"

"Revitalized, he casts aside Rey and Hen and attacks the Ressitance fleet with his renewed power"

This second quote is inportant, because it says his "renewed power" is what's capable of the fleet lighting feat. Meaning that his old power was able to do this. The other book which says he drew energies from a sith temple into the strike was written by an IU historian and can be considered questionable considering that it's never mentioned anywhere else. This book outright says it's his ROTJ power which can do it.

This means that ROTJ Vader withstood lightning capable of that fleet strike, given that both junior novels confirm that he was trying to kill Vader. In fact, Vader likely withstood greater lightning given that Sheev likely didn't blast the fleet with his full power.

Thoughts?

Well well well

Nice

Indeed.

Even if you were to argue Dyad beyond, the source explicitly says that it's his old power which allowed him to do it.

I wonder to what extent the scan implies it’s his restored power. ROTJ? All the way back to ROTS? He didn’t even seem to use all too much effort in attacking the fleet. I assume it means his peak power was renewed though, so probably ROTJ.

Vader scaling 📈 as well

@mr-yes:

It would have to refer to ROTJ tbh.

@frozen: I don’t care anymore, nothing ever wants to stay consistent. This or this or this is how it happened, now just wait until something else comes along and says something else.

There's been a lot of explit confirmation that the dyad is just restoring his body. But now the distinction is irrelevant because even if dyad is beyond ROTJ (I don't think he is but pushing that aside for now), this explicitly says his old power is what allows him to attack the fleet.

Then, Sidious >>> Vader, confirmed?

Well yes but Vader did tank his lightning which can electrocute an entire fleet of 30,000 ships. Albeit he died shortly after.

Uff da, a devestating find, frozen. If they don’t if they don’t confirm an Exegol or Dyad amp, then even me, LightorDark, the wrench thrown into Star Wars scaling, might have to admit that the Jedi are absolute dogshit compared to the Sith.

I don’t know why Lucasfilm is pushing this so hard.

Jedi used to be powerful heroes, the light in the galaxy far far away, yet Disney continues to take them down while building up Vader and Sidious.

Maybe Star Wars just isn’t for me anymore.

Well even if he was amped by the dyad or Exogol, its irrelevant, because its stated that his renewed power (which isn't amplified by exogol or dyad) that is required to perform that feat. So dyad Sheev could still be > ROTJ, but ROTJ Sheev is now confimed capable of performing that feat. (I don't think dyad is > ROTJ but its irrelevant distinction now).

Good find

I think it’s weird that no other fans are troubled that Disney has destroyed the Jedi.

A few more takeaways:

• Zombie Sidious is repeatedly stated as sub ROTJ Sidious
• Vader withstanding Sheev lightning for a few seconds scales to fleet feat
• Its strongly suggested that Dyad is just synonymous with ROTJ. It just states that he used the dyad to remake his body

@lightordark:

It's still possible to argue GM Luke above Sidious due to Shadow of The Sith, but personally I don't buy it. Sheev at his peak kicks his shit in.

I get the impression that the writers would think Dyad Sheev = ROTJ = ROTS = Yoda, but tbh I don't think that stance is valid going by published sources. I do think Uoda could beat Zombie Sidious though.

@frozen: Nice find, this is pretty blatant.

@frozen: you figured out how to get the book?

A friend showed me some pages.

From what I've been told, Sidious is the only person who really gets wank. I'm surprised by how explicit they are in stating that ROTJ Sidious could perform that feat. The book also says Sidious is the most impactful person in the galaxy, moreso than Anakin, Luke, Rey, etc.

Tbh I'm coming around to the idea that ROTJ era Sheev is just so far above everyone else. Nobody really comes close to him.

@frozen:

Tbh I'm coming around to the idea that ROTJ era Sheev is just so far above everyone else. Nobody really comes close to him.

This really does make the most sense, even narratively.

I also think narratively Yoda is supposed to be on par with Sidious, but it’s tough to defend that stance really.

Yoda was only on par with ROTS Sidious. Not ROTJ.

This is a crazy feat for ROTJ Sidous 🔥. Damn….

That lightning soloing lots of LA CBM characters….

That's true. I think its undeniable that ROTJ is >>> ROTS. But if I had to hazard a guess, I'd assume writers probably conceive of ROTS as being = ROTJ. They revere Yoda. But yeah ROTJ being >>> ROTS is undeniable going by actual canon lore and published sources. Now Zombie > ROTS on the other hand......

Pre TLJ I would have objected, but post TLJ we know that GM Luke was a bum who died in his early 50s. So yeah he never surpassed Sidious. He wasn't the chad Legends Luke.

I’m aware.

Oh you meant intent wise. My bad.

I don't think there will ever be a published source saying ROTJ = ROTS. There's no real reason to. No such source existed in legends. But if for example such a sourse was published, it would change scaling so much.

Yoda's feat of deflecting his FL would be god tier.

Well that's stupid. Can't wait for the bs Legends powerscaling again.

I guess it works for battle board users but I do highly doubt the author/s of that book gave any thought to Sidious being able to perform that feat previously or not.

I think they just chose those words just purely to describe him regaining power, that said it’s fun for power scaling I guess.

I mean, if you want to dig down into a primary intent argument (which means ignoring novelizations and guidebooks etc), then the argument is probably stronger. Sidious explicitly says in the film that the dyad merely restored his body, not give extra force power. Databank re-affirms this. The previous Rise of Skywalker script takes it a step further by actually having the Dyad restore his body to a 30 something year old Matt Smith (script says "Palpatine now looks like how he did before the Clone Wars"). That would actually imply that a pre TPM Palpatine is his peak. None of the primary sources on the film talk about Palpatine becoming "stronger than ever". They just state that his body gets fixed and that he is reverted to previous state.

There's quite a bit to suggest that JJ Abrams doesn't differentiate between restored Dyad Palpatine and ROTJ Palpatine. Similarly, was the case with George Lucas and ROTS Palpatine vs ROTJ. He just talks about them as if they're the same.

The difference is that there's a 40 year gap between ROTJ and TROS. That's why we can have Vader get matched by a ROTJ Luke who struggled against a rancor in his film, but 40 years later pull down and rip apart a mid sized ship. It's the same deal with Palpatine. The senate pods in ROTS were far beyond anything ROTJ Palpatine showed in ROTJ. And likewise for Dyad Palps compared to ROTS.

Did Sidious actually use all the sith's power when he attacked Rey later on, then? Does it say anything about it in the book?

You mean in the "all the sith" vs "all the jedi" battle?

Yeah.

Yes he did. Confirmed in various books.

@frozen: Alright. Was just trying to see if the book explained anything about that after stating that Sidious was using his old powers when he came back.

This is absurd though. Especially when your average jedi gets owned by a single clone trooper as seen in The Mandalorian. If Anakin had 30000 midiclorians, those guys must have had 8.

Palpatine isn't supposed to be average. That's the point of him. He's at the absolute top, and only Skywalkers have the potential to surpass him.

TCW already showed Anakin's full potential on Mortis. He was supposed to become a literal god.

Then Star Wars powerscaling is screwed and the Death Star is the most pointless waste of money ever created by the Empire.

I don't buy Vader or Palpatine being millions or even billions of times stronger than the average Jedi master.

TRoS really jumped the shark for the live action side of things.

@superdarth:

You said yourself that you watch TCW. Anakin's potential is to replace The Father. He ragdolled The Son and Daughter, the embodiments of the light and dark side. Two halves of a universal energy. He's god tier at full potential, and ironically its Lucas himself who spearheaded that arc.

@frozen: Renewed power=ROTJ Sidious+Exogol+all the Sith. ROTJ Sidious (and restored Sidious) is more powerful when amped by Exogol+ATS than Zombie Sidious under same circumstances. ROTJ Sidious outside of Exogol and without all the Sith spirits doesn't scale to this feat.

This interpretation doesn't match the text. To be "renewed" is "having been resumed or re-established. It is referring to a previous state of power. That being ROTJ, who wasn't confined to exogol nor had the dyad. It is this renewed power (which is defined as ROTJ Sheev) that is stated as the requirement of power to attack the fleet. Neither the senior nor junior novelization for TROS say he channelled all the sith into attacking the fleet.

The other scans of the book explicitly state that Zombie Sidious is less powerful in the force than ROTJ. And that's in spite of the fact that Zombie has exogol.

It does match. His baseline abilities have been renewed. He is already explicitly confirmed by numerous sources, including the official databank and film itself, to be amped during this scene.

• Exogol is a force vergence, and we know that vergences give passive amps.
• He is explicitly confirmed to have channeled the energy of the Sith temple to attack the fleet.
• He states clearly that all the Sith live in him. It does not need to be stated that he is using the power of the Sith spirits every time he makes a move. That power literally lives within him. It is part of him.

The only thing being restored by the Dyad is his body, and thus, the power he is capable of wielding through it. A restoration of his body causes his power to be equal to his ROTJ self under similar circumstances. Meaning if you went back in time and gave ROTJ Sidious the amps that the Sith spirits, Exogol and Sith temple provide, his capability to decimate a fleet of equal size to Lando's fleet would be equal to that of Dyad Sidious. Boom. Power renewed.

@frozen:

After deep research into the Dyad.. I believe you are correct here.

Sid used the Dyad to remake his body, and sorta refill his battery.. this definitely suggests the fleet thing was his own power.

@dathvada:

I don't think this tracks with the text. The databank makes no mention of any amp when he struck the fleet. The text says that only with his "renewed" power, can he attack the fleet. That power is his ROTJ power, which wouldn't be confined to Exogol. Therefore, ROTJ applicable power > Zombie applicable power.

• The extent of the force nexus is questionable. Zombie Sidious is stated to be less powerful in the force than his previous ROTJ self. The only way to interpret this would be ROTJ Sidious who is not on exogol. Because Sidious is usually not confined to there. TROS junior novel states that Sidious was "at the height of his power" when Vader killed him aboard the second death star. This can't be referring to political power either, as the Empire was at its peak pre-Rebel alliance. Furthermore, Timelines repeatedly states that while Zombie Sidious is powerful, he is still lesser in the force than his ROTJ self
• The Sith temple statement is from Battles That Changed The Galaxy, which is written IU by a historian. Therefore, it doesn't enjoy the objectivity of an OOU source. And given that this detail of draining the temple isn't mentioned in any other source, I'd suggest it's highly questionable
• The senior novelization makes explicit reference to when he decides to actively call upon All The Sith. To assume he's always channelling that wouldn't make much sense considering A) Zombie Sidious is explicitly stated as less powerul than ROTJ Sidious. If the former has All The Sith and is presumably always using it, then it makes no sense as to why he is repeatedly affirmed as ROTJ's inferior in the force. The sources don't say he's lesser than a hypothetical version of ROTJ who is on exoogl+has all the sith+dyad. They just explicitly say he is sub ROTJ. B) The Zombie Sidious who ragdolled the Duo is stated as sub ROTJ and contrasted as being powerful "despite" being weakened. Zombie is constantly contrasted to ROTJ and affirmed as lesser, in spite of having exogol + sith spirits
• Which brings me to the point of All The Sith. I believe we have probably discussed this exact topic before. The point I made then was that the All The Sith amp is an active one that he has to call down. And that Zombie Sidious is unable to do this due to his dying body (its dying precisely because of his immense passive power). He is only described as using it after his hands are healed, and he only uses it a few times (when draining them and when against Rey). I'm still of this opinion, because it reconciles nicely with the fact that ROTJ Sidious (a version of Sidious who isn't on a force nexus) is repeatedly stated as being >>> Zombie Sidious. With more recent quotes explicitly referring to.force power. They refer to ROTJ Sidious as he was, not a hypothetical ROTJ Sidious on exogol with all these external amps. If All The Sith isn't an active amp and he can use it whenever he wants as a zombie, then IMO it just doesn't at all reconcile with the array of sources asserting ROTJ's superiority. Because if Zombie doesn't need to actively call the power of the sith, then there is no reason at all he should be sub ROTJ. I'd rather go with what's stated

@superdarth: @jucaslucasa: @death4bunnies: @helmag: @finalkingthanos: @nassergrant19: @calclord: @lightordark: @wolfrazer: @jedisympathiz3r: @mr-yes: @frozen:

sorry guys, but another source confirms he was powered by the sith temple

@alextheboss: This, I'm pretty sure is a source from an IU historian, both the TROS novelization and the source above say it was from the power of the Dyad (which restored Sidious to his former glory) so those take prescendence.