Rebels Maul = Prime Maul

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frozen

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#1 frozen  Moderator

Dave Filoni states the following:

''Maul (Rebels) hasn't underwent any personal growth besides in his anger and need for revenge''

1:38:55 to 1:39:07

From the above quote, it is apparent that he is treating end of CW Maul and Rebels as the same. So at the very least, no indication of Rebels Maul having declined in any way (contrast this to the way he talks about Season 4 Maul vs TPM). However, he specifically states that Rebels Maul is angrier than TCW Maul and has a strong desire for revenge.

We know that anger fuels darksiders, especially Maul. Given that it is stated in Skywalker Saga that anger fueled Maul's powers:

''Qui Gon Jinn was strong, but the Zabrak seemed stronger, full of anger that fueled his dark side power''

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Force users typically grow more powerful in the force with age, as stated in Rise of Skywalker novelization:

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Further re-affirmed with ESB Yoda furthering his connection to the force. The only counter-examples are FUs who intentionally neglect their connection to the force. Such as Obi Wan in his TV series, and even when he regains his connection, he strains to lift Leia. And it takes him several days of reflection, fighting and mental resolve to return to his ROTS level force power.

At best, Rebels Maul might be physically lesser than his TCW self at base, but he should be able to augment himself to and beyond peak TCW levles.

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EmmaFrostXmen

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yea nothing contradicts this. i’m sure people will use some headcanon information/non canon sources though.

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Ieatnettles

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#4  Edited By Ieatnettles

@frozen: I think I might be the reason this exists, lol. Imo pre malachor maul post solo maul is his prime, due to having the best of all of his attributes:

1: He's nearly as old as rebels maul, therefore if there's any difference in force power/aug it would basically be minute

2: He still looks to be in healthy physical shape

3: Post order 66 so he would have become stronger

The problem I have with rebels maul being >tcw maul is that that would make him windu level, as in SOD he fought windu and secura (who is above lots of jedi masters due surviving geonosian onslaught) for 5 comic panels (estimating around 30 seconds), and there was no evidence he was struggling. If rebels maul was stronger that means he could replicate that feat but even better.

So I'm undecided about rebels maul>sod maul, but pre malachor post solo maul should be his best

Post solo/pre malachor maul>tcw maul>=rebels maul imo

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Ieatnettles

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@emmafrostxmen: surely post solo pre malachor maul is his prime? He has the physicals of his sod version, the power, augmentation and knowledge of his rebels version and it's post order 66 so he would have become stronger with the force.

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EmmaFrostXmen

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@ieatnettles: that’s completely speculative though. there’s nothing in canon to back up that maul was weaker in rebels.

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Ieatnettles

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#7  Edited By Ieatnettles
@emmafrostxmen said:

@ieatnettles: that’s completely speculative though. there’s nothing in canon to back up that maul was weaker in rebels.

He was stranded on dathomir to the extent u can see a vast physical difference between him and solo maul

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mr-yes

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#8  Edited By mr-yes

You mean prime in terms of power, right?

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EmmaFrostXmen

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#9  Edited By EmmaFrostXmen

@ieatnettles: that was malachor. a planet explicitly stated in episode to make sith powerful (stated 4 other times by canon sources as well), and as shown by yoda non combat physicality doesn’t matter at all.

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alextheboss

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I think in terms of overall force prowess he is prime, but he is physically weaker and a little more rusty and not as mentally with it, so I think it's still up in the air on if he is truly prime or not. I think he is about the same level for now.

And you can't just say his greater force power will mean he is physically stronger due to force amping. You would have to quantify his increase in the force and how much that improves his strength, and then also quantify how much muscle strength he lost. It's impossible.

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Gaoron

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#11  Edited By Gaoron

That was known for years. But there's no arguing with Maul fans.

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Greysentinel365

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@gaoron said:

That was known for years. But there's no arguing with Maul fans.

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This is from a blog on SW.Com which are explicitely not canon material or statements

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Ieatnettles

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@emmafrostxmen: maul whole fighting style relies on him being fit, which he just wasn't in rebels. We also don't know if malachor is a passive amp or something you have to tap into, so there's barely any point bringing it up, as if it was an active amp its in mauls character to be overconfident, so he wouldn't tap into it anyway

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Ieatnettles

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@gaoron said:

That was known for years. But there's no arguing with Maul fans.

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non canon statement

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EmmaFrostXmen

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#15  Edited By EmmaFrostXmen

@ieatnettles: it is a passive amp. the inquisitors were stated to have accessed special abilities due to the planet. as ridiculous as it sounds that what the people behind the scenes used to justify the flying lightsabers. there’s no reason inquisitors would be amped but maul wouldn’t considering maul is immensely more powerful.

also yoda’s fighting style requires him to be extremely physical as well so once again the force makes up for that as shown several times with yoda.

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Ieatnettles

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#16  Edited By Ieatnettles
@emmafrostxmen said:

@ieatnettles: it is a passive amp. the inquisitors were stated to have accessed special abilities due to the planet. as ridiculous as it sounds that what the people behind the scenes used to justify the flying lightsabers. there’s no reason inquisitors would be amped but maul wouldn’t considering maul is immensely more powerful.

also yoda’s fighting style requires him to be extremely physical as well so once again the force makes up for that as shown several times with yoda.

Even if the statement can be argued against his performance against the Inquisitors can't. Maul did much better against three inquisitors than ahsoka did against two

Yoda is much more powerful than maul, so it makes sense that he doesn't rely on physicals because he doesn't have too.

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EmmaFrostXmen

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@ieatnettles: filoni stated she was toying with them and that she was never in danger. she also actively engaged in conversation with them and turned off her lightsaber because she was confident. adding an extra fodder inquisitor wouldn’t suddenly make her struggle. not comparable fights. also the amp affected maul and the inquisitors which then effectively cancels it out in that circumstance because everyone involved was amped. the other people disadvantaged on malachor were the jedi.

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Ieatnettles

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@emmafrostxmen: maul was toying with them too. He was smiling the whole time. I never made the argument that just the Inquisitors were amped. Maul did much better against three of them. Ahsoka struggled with one, yes she was obviously winning, but before she grabbed sevenths lightsaber seventh was actually doing fine, whereas maul just toyed with them, and deliberately chose not to kill them

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EmmaFrostXmen

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@ieatnettles: ahsoka did not struggle. that goes against WOG and it is backed up by nothing. engaging in a blade lock and grunting isn’t struggling. ahsoka was fooling around and so was maul so why would you ever use two fights where characters aren’t trying particularly hard as the basis of comparison? use their best feats. that’s how stuff like this is determined. ahsoka defended against an amped vader for a minute straight. that is enough to place her above any version of maul.

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frozen

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#20  Edited By frozen  Moderator

@emmafrostxmen:

I’ve got one source saying that Rebels Maul was “visibly weaker” than before in terms of physicality. But it’s perspective based and doesn’t negate the fact that Maul can just force augment himself. It also goes against what Filoni says if we are to take it to mean Maul is post prime.

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Ieatnettles

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@ieatnettles: ahsoka did not struggle. that goes against WOG and it is backed up by nothing. engaging in a blade lock and grunting isn’t struggling. ahsoka was fooling around and so was maul so why would you ever use two fights where characters aren’t trying particularly hard as the basis of comparison? use their best feats. that’s how stuff like this is determined. ahsoka defended against an amped vader for a minute straight. that is enough to place her above any version of maul.

Well she certainly wasn't fighting as easily as maul was. What evidence is there she was playing around? She had a serious face the whole time, and bared her teeth multiple times. Maul was smiling (which we have never seen him do before in a fight) so he was definitely toying with them. Ahsoka fought Vader for 50 seconds before getting one tapped with the force, and after that he beat her in 20 seconds. Maul while pre prime was able to fight windu and another master level opponent (aayla survived geonosian arena, while a lot of masters died, and she was able to fight early war ventress, which means she's not just an average jedi knight). Yes it was brief, but it still puts prime maul on windus teir, as there is no evidence he was struggling. And if windu was on his own maul would do even better and last even longer, coupled with the fact he was pre prime

Post solo pre rebels is mauls prime

Prime Vader>prime maul>=rebels maul=prime ahsoka>rebels ahsoka

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Ieatnettles

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@frozen said:

@emmafrostxmen:

I’ve got one source saying that Rebels Maul was “visibly weaker” than before in terms of physicality. But it’s perspective based and doesn’t negate the fact that Maul can just force augment himself. It also goes against what Filoni says if we are to take it to mean Maul is post prime.

Surely post solo pre malachor should be his prime tho?

@ieatnettles said: pre malachor maul post solo maul is his prime, due to having the best of all of his attributes:

1: He's nearly as old as rebels maul, therefore if there's any difference in force power/aug it would basically be minute

2: He still looks to be in healthy physical shape

3: Post order 66 so he would have become stronger

The problem I have with rebels maul being >tcw maul is that that would make him windu level, as in SOD he fought windu and secura (who is above lots of jedi masters due surviving geonosian onslaught) for 5 comic panels (estimating around 30 seconds), and there was no evidence he was struggling. If rebels maul was stronger that means he could replicate that feat but even better.

So I'm undecided about rebels maul>sod maul, but pre malachor post solo maul should be his best

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Ieatnettles

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#23  Edited By Ieatnettles

@frozen: just debated it with another user and as I was debating I realized that rebels maul >tcw maul, due to a massive timeline gap (17 years)

However I still believe post solo/pre malachor is prime:

Post solo pre malachor maul>rebels maul>tcw maul

Post solo pre malachor maul>>tcw maul

Pre malachor post solo maul should be around 3-4 bby, as I don't think even maul could go for a year without food and water

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Gaoron

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#24  Edited By Gaoron

Ah yes, I forgot statements from official SW site are only canon when used to wank Maul. My bad guys.

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Ieatnettles

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@gaoron said:

Ah yes, I forgot statements from official SW site are only canon when used to wank Maul. My bad guys.

What statements wank maul? I generally completely ignore the SW website, as they're not canon.

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frozen

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#26 frozen  Moderator

@gaoron: @ieatnettles:

The databank is canon. They are LFL approved. The editorials aren’t canon.

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RedSithDisciple

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@frozen: I always held this belief, but nice to have more solid evidence beyond just the sw.com gallery.

Also can you add me to the tag list?

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Eredin12

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#28  Edited By Eredin12

Yea this is known fact. Nice read

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Ieatnettles

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@eredin12 said:

Yea this is known fact. Nice read

Post solo pre malachor maul should be prime:

He's better mentally, has equal aug and power and much better physicals

Post solo pre rebels maul>rebels maul>tcw maul

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frozen

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#30 frozen  Moderator

@ieatnettles: Given that you think this Maul is better than TCW, TCW is binded under Rebels Vader.

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Ieatnettles

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#31  Edited By Ieatnettles

@frozen: I tagged u yesterday or the day before saying I agree with u, but I think maul just before malachor would be a bit stronger

Could have been someone else tho, but i think it was on your thread rebels maul=prime maul

Whoops just realized that this is that thread

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Ieatnettles

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@frozen: wait what do u mean? I don't understand? Maul is better than tcw?

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frozen

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#33 frozen  Moderator

@ieatnettles:

Rebels Maul says he can’t beat Vader. Vader > Rebels Maul > TCW Maul.

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Ieatnettles

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#34  Edited By Ieatnettles

@frozen: maul used that as a tactic to keep the group there. Also I agree that tcw maul is sub rebels vader, as now I agree that rebels maul is a bit better than him. However prime post solo pre malachor maul is >=rebels Vader, but just above that is where he stops in the Vader gauntlet

Prime Vader>>prime maul>=rebels Vader>=rebels maul>tcw maul=prime ahsoka<rebels ahsoka

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Eredin12

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#35  Edited By Eredin12

@ieatnettles:

Post solo pre rebels maul>rebels maul>tcw maul

I am fine with that, but I have no idea what makes you think that any version of Maul can beat Rebels Vader, he has no such feats at all

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Ieatnettles

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#36  Edited By Ieatnettles
@eredin12 said:

@ieatnettles:

Post solo pre rebels maul>rebels maul>tcw maul

I am fine with that, but I have no idea what makes you think that any version of Maul can beat Rebels Vader, he has no such feats at all

Glad we could agree.

I have two main reasons for prime maul being >=rebels Vader

1: He was able to fight windu and secura in a 1vs 2 and wasn't struggling. And this is him pre prime. If he was in his prime he would definitely do much better, as if we look at his growth from tcw s4-7 its substantial (goes from struggling to drag down a ship to destroying to venator hyperdrives) and thats only about a year, a 15-16 year gap coupled with the order 66 amp would make him so much more powerful, if the growth was consistent with tcw. However if it was consistent with tcw he would be sidious level which is just wrong, so id say prime maul is windu and dooku level (but beneath either of them) as he could already fight windu while pre prime, and i put windu at just above dooku.

2: this is less valid and less effective but it more reinforces my point than actually makes it: maul was above ahsoka while post prime, the same ahsoka who was mid diffed by Vader. So that should mean post prime maul should at least be high diffed by Vader, and prime maul should be equal or above

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Eredin12

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#37  Edited By Eredin12

@ieatnettles:

1: He was able to fight windu and secura in a 1vs 2 and wasn't struggling. And this is him pre prime. If he was in his prime he would definitely do much better, as if we look at his growth from tcw s4-7 its substantial (goes from struggling to drag down a ship to destroying to venator hyperdrives) and thats only about a year, a 15-16 year gap coupled with the order 66 amp would make him so much more powerful, if the growth was consistent with tcw. However if it was consistent with tcw he would be sidious level which is just wrong, so id say prime maul is windu and dooku level (but beneath either of them) as he could already fight windu while pre prime, and i put windu at just above dooku.

I have no idea why clashing with Mace a few times is very notable tbh. Grievous fought Yoda for more than that. That is also not really showing of force power either. I do not think his skill changed between post-Solo and Rebels, it was still around Ashoka level, at best you could argue that his power did a bit and that he would be more powerful, but as far as force power goes, Vader is of course much better than him,

2: this is less valid and less effective but it more reinforces my point than actually makes it: maul was above ahsoka while post prime, the same ahsoka who was mid diffed by Vader. So that should mean post prime maul should at least be high diffed by Vader, and prime maul should be equal or above

Ashoka was not really mid-diffed, she was one-shotted with force, which shows a very large force gap, and even in a pure duel, she lost after just 20+ seconds when Vader was going all out even when he did not use force at all., despite fact that Vader is primary force user.

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RedSithDisciple

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@ieatnettles: Maul doesn't even fight Mace other than one brief blade clash before Death Watch fires the missile at them.

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calclord

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@frozen: Nice finds, I agree. Would you say Rebels Maul is around Rebels Ahsoka level? If so I'd put him pretty high up, nearing if not reaching the power of the RotS titans, though not on the level of the OT powerhouses.

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Ieatnettles

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#41  Edited By RedSithDisciple
@ieatnettles said:

@redsithdisciple: he fought off panel for 4 panels

Those 4 panels take place over just a few seconds. Death Watch aims the missile and fires, and in that time Tyranus force pulls Tiplee and kills her. The whole duel between Maul and Mace isn't any longer than Fisto's fight against Sidious.

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Ieatnettles

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@redsithdisciple: lol fistos was like max 7 seconds. Mauls fight was at least 20

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RedSithDisciple

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@ieatnettles: It most definitely was not 20 seconds. At max it was 10.

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Ieatnettles

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@redsithdisciple: there was enough time for dooku to shoot lightning, drag a Jedi and kill her, then the mandolorians ran and boarded the ship, screamed lord maul, screamed incoming, aimed and fired a missile. Also while the clones and the Mando fired created enough of a mess to set the place on fire a bit, so it was definitely 20+ seconds

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RedSithDisciple

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@ieatnettles: The lightning happened before Maul and Mace clashed. All that happens between the fight and the missile is the Mandalorians prepare to fire their missile, Tyranus force pulls and stabs Tiplee, and then the missile gets fired. That takes way less than 20 seconds to happen.

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Ieatnettles

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@redsithdisciple: if u look at the positions of the characters it evident that they haven't just started fighting. They wouldnt randomly go from looking at each other to maul being in the middle of them mid kick. Also if I remember correctly maul says 'finally, a fair fight' and then the lighting happens, so your point is invalid

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RedSithDisciple

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@ieatnettles: This doesn't invalidate anything. People can comment on a fight before the actual fighting starts. As for the kick, sure for maybe for like one second, they were engaged prior to that scan, but definitely not 10 seconds. They don't make super big jumps like that during such a quick scene.

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Ieatnettles

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@redsithdisciple: I'm saying maul would just say that and then stand there for a bit. That's obviously the opening to the fight, so the fight started before dookus' lighting

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RedSithDisciple

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@ieatnettles: Mace and Aayla were a distance away from Maul as he said it. It’s not like the fighting started the nanosecond after Maul spoke.

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Ieatnettles

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#50  Edited By Ieatnettles

@redsithdisciple: leaping distance, could be covered in like a second

I think we're not going to change each other's minds, let's just leave it