Proof Count Dooku>Yoda in TK

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ManaMan

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Its been a while since I added to the Star Wars debating scene but here you guys go. Some inconsistencies between Star Wars mediums has given evidence of Count Dooku being more powerful in TK than Yoda.

How can this be proven? By a direct comparison of similar feats.

In the Jedi Path the Muntuur Stones are discussed. The Muntuur Stones are some very large boulders that each weigh several tons (if my memory serves me correctly between 1-5 tons). Merely nudging one is an achievement, and only masters of great power can lift all 7. Yoda himself stated that since passing the age of 700 can only lift 5.

(not a picture of the actual Muntuur Stones)

No Caption Provided

Now if only there were a feat where Dooku casually lifts around a dozen stone objects each weighing between 1-5 tons...

No Caption Provided

What makes this worse is that the Muntuur Stones are a meditation practice so supposedly Yoda can only lift 5 while meditating, yet Dooku did his feat off the cuff.

There ya go. Dooku surpassing Yoda's limitation with TK and doing it casually. Now go out there and use this argument, but don't credit me. I don't want to be known as a Dooku fanboy. Vader>Dooku

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Lord_God

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Uhm sure

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Lord_God

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Dooku is also > Sidious

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#6  Edited By Wolfrazer

@manaman: Not sure why I was tagged, but those things in the gif we have no clue what they weigh in at. Plus those stones in the picture are for those practicing their TK, noted to be smaller replicas, one doesn't need to meditate to lift them, that's just for beginners.

Yoda has moved far heavier things than those stone objects with TK.

Also each of the Muntuur stones weigh 5 tons a piece. But regardless Yoda saying that doesn't mean much, since he's moved far heavier things with TK, so that's at best inconsistent with what he's actually shown.

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#8  Edited By ManaMan

@wolfrazer: I'm aware the picture is of smaller replicas. I noted in the post that those aren't the real stones. Also you can estimate the weight of something by seeing its size and knowing its material. We dont know the exact type of stone those pillars are made of but assuming they are a rather typical type of stone each of those pillars should be between 2-5 tons in weight.

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TheVivas

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Lol

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Bayman007

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Nice try

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Dooku is canonically equal to Yoda as of AOTC in TK.

"Dooku is surprised when his old master, Yoda, arrives. After equalling each other with feats of Force power, they ignite their blades and clash in an explosive duel. Yoda's acrobatic style is matched by Dooku's finesse and the fight ends with Yoda electing to save Obi-Wan and Anakin from death rather than defeat his old Padawan."

-- 2017 Journey to Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Trading Card #112

George Lucas: You can't just go right into the sword fight, so I decided to go back to The Empire Strikes Back of throwing things at each other, even though I knew they were equal to each other, so it was a hopeless gesture and they would've figured that out in two seconds. But for the audience it's nice for them to go through this process of everybody throwing everything around.

Source -- Attack of the Clones DVD Commentary

They didn't trade TK, it was lightning and tutaminis

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Bayman007

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Dooku is not Equal to Yoda. Behave

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@spinach: that must be a hollow mountain to weigh less than the Muntuur stones

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@manaman said:

@spinach: that must be a hollow mountain to weigh less than the Muntuur stones

Doesn't look hollow to me, that aside, doesn't really matter since the mountain weighs more than the stones Dooku lifted.

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@manaman said:

@yousufkhan1212: 1) who are you?

2) Idk who gets banned

1) A guy who has been a member of this community for 4 years I guess.

2) It was darthant66 and emperordmb that got banned.

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eslay03

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This is the exact proof we needed guys! Now maybe Dooku will be able to beat Cad Bane.

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@manaman said:

@spinach: isnt that a canon feat?

Both the mountain, and Dooku lifting the obelisk looking stones are canon feats.

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Lord_Tenebrous

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You're mixing different writers. Everyone has their own idea as to how powerful Force users should generally be, there's very little coordination across material. For instance, Clone Wars Adventures comic series Anakin could manipulate dreadnoughts while TCW Anakin can barely hold a small ship-sized crystal even with Obi-Wan's help. In Dark Rendezvous, Yoda could barely hold up a small ship(and only partially), while Yoda in the 2003 CW microseries could dominate multiple droid carriers simultaneously. Different writers, different opinions. The power levels are far less coordinated than even the martial fights.

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@lord_tenebrous: Not to mention Windu's showing in 2003 series should have been infinitely more than enough to curbstomp grievous, yet he still engaged grievous in a troublesome duel in Shatterpoint. That said, I don't think we have ever seen Palpatine struggle with TK across legends or canon, yet with yoda its always a struggle.

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#29  Edited By Wolfrazer

@manaman said:

@spinach: TCW is both Legends and Canon

Technically yes TCW is Legends, but it's not C-canon Legends which is what you're also using here IE: Jedi Path. TCW is T-Canon which doesn't mesh with C. Which is why it's not a good thing to mix TCW with other works as it's going to cause problems on a whole as LT points out above. Yeah there's inconsistent regardless, but TCW makes moreso. Not just in character power, but in timeline, events, characters and so on.

Though you could perhaps mix certain C-canon works that pertain to TCW on the whole IE: Those TCW comics or TCW novels that would fall under C, just treating those as material for TCW if you really wanna treat TCW as Legends. But all other C works that would be no. It does work better though just treating it as Disney Canon, your brain will thank you.

Even still Dooku isn't > to Yoda in TK. This one showing isn't proving that as Yoda has lifted/move things which would be heavier than those.

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Lord_Tenebrous

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@wolfrazer:

I think that a good amount of the EU following 2008 can be reconciled with TCW, as it was developed to fit in with the show. For example, the 2008 comic series from Dark Horse entitled "Star Wars: The Clone Wars"

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@eslay03 said:

This is the exact proof we needed guys! Now maybe Dooku will be able to beat Cad Bane.

no, Dooku has already been proven to be superior to Yoda. But he is not Cad Bane level.

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eslay03

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@lord_god: Yeah, I was obviously trolling. We all know that NO ONE is even close to Bane level.

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Ah yes, the NEGOTIATOR

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Imagine posting an image and missing out a crucial word:

No Caption Provided

No Caption Provided

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@breakofdawn: so you are suggesting Dooku has more control over his TK than Yoda

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@manaman: I'm suggesting nothing of the sort. I'm pointing out that your post is built on something you've accidentally misread. It's entirely possible Dooku's mastery of the Force is comparable to Yoda as of AOTC.

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@breakofdawn: I didnt misread anything. The words "for control" is likely referring to the branch of Force Powers. CONTROL, Sense, and Alter. And not referring to your level of control over TK, as lifting heavy stones is more an indicator of Strength and not of a level of control

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@manaman said:

@breakofdawn: I didnt misread anything. The words "for control" is likely referring to the branch of Force Powers. CONTROL, Sense, and Alter. And not referring to your level of control over TK, as lifting heavy stones is more an indicator of Strength and not of a level of control

TK is an aspect of the "alter" branch, not "control".

Control is an element separate from power in this case, as the same source specifies:

No Caption Provided

It distinguishes between raw power (lifting great weights), precision, and control (manipulating objects with TK)

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ManaMan

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@breakofdawn: regardless. You still failed to explain how the distinction discredits Count Dooku replicating and surpassing an expressed limit of Yoda in regards to TK

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@manaman: For one, the source itself is outdated. CW has Yoda moving around entire CIS dropships., for example. The source itself is limited.

For another, the source indicates Yoda declined from 700 onwards, which is consistent with the idea that Yoda declined and only hit his peak again as of ROTS.

Dooku's feat is also unjustifiable as we don't know how much the stones weighed. Assuming they weigh as much as the Muntuur Stones, Savage performed at a similar level to pre-AOTC Yoda, so it's not exactly the best comparison unless we concede that Savage > Yoda, when superiors of Savage are confirmed to be below Yoda.

It's a questionable basis for an argument.

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@breakofdawn: sounds like you are discrediting sources if they dont fit your narrative. The pillars that Dooku lifted are easy enough to estimate the weight of, we dont need a declared weight to know that even the smallest ones weigh several tons each, and the largest ones could very easily be reaching 5-10 ton range.

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#42  Edited By ManaMan

@breakofdawn: as far as Yoda lifting transport ships, I distinctly remember a feat where Dooku lifted a Star ship so that isnt evidence of Yoda having better TK

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@manaman: sounds like you are discrediting sources if they dont fit your narrative.

No, I'm viewing it in light of the information we already have, including what's shown by other media and sources before and after the Dooku feat and that statement was made.

The pillars that Dooku lifted are easy enough to estimate the weight of, we dont need a declared weight to know that even the smallest ones weigh several tons each, and the largest ones could very easily be reaching 5-10 ton range.

Without a dedicated source, all we have is speculation. Yoda performed a similar kind of feat - arguably on a greater scale - a few weeks/months after AOTC and with no time to focus, unlike Dooku:

Loading Video...

So even here, post-AOTC Yoda performed comparably well - if not better, given that he had to halt the fall of the boulders then hold them upright before throwing them to the side with enough distance to avoid crushing the king and his men without too much effort and with no time to focus - as opposed to Dooku a considerable time after AOTC lifting the monoliths into the air while having to visibly focus and concentrate.

as far as Yoda lifting transport ships, I distinctly remember a feat where Dooku lifted a Star ship so that isnt evidence of Yoda having better TK

Dooku's feat was at the heart of a dark side nexus so powerful it could be felt from space and left beings as powerful as AOTC Obi-Wan feeling cold and numb when he was at the edges of its influence. Yoda's was on Coruscant, a great distance from the Jedi Temple. Yoda's was also on a far greater scale while in the middle of a battle.

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Without a dedicated source, all we have is speculation. Yoda performed a similar kind of feat - arguably on a greater scale - a few weeks/months after AOTC and with no time to focus, unlike Dooku:

Ah yes. If a source book doesn't tell us the exact weight of jedi robes how could we possibly know they aren't 100 kilos each? You don't need declared weights to know the ball park of how much something weighs. Source books don't have to spoon feed us every tiny detail. Somethings we can infer on our own.

This is a real world 1 ton boulder.

No Caption Provided

Even the smallest pillars would weigh roughly around 2 tons with the bigger ones being in excess of 5+

No Caption Provided

Now onto Yoda's feat that surpasses Dooku's supposedly. You are forgetting something very crucial...Yoda is small. When compared to him those boulders seem quite large but when you actually look at the boulders compared to the normal sized clone troopers you realize that they are no bigger than the real world 1 ton boulder I previously posted.

No Caption Provided

Dooku's feat was at the heart of a dark side nexus so powerful it could be felt from space and left beings as powerful as AOTC Obi-Wan feeling cold and numb when he was at the edges of its influence. Yoda's was on Coruscant, a great distance from the Jedi Temple. Yoda's was also on a far greater scale while in the middle of a battle.

Thank you for pointing this out. Yoda lifting the Muntuur stones is a feat inside the Jedi Temple on Coruscant, an extremely powerful lightside nexus that empowers lightsiders.

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No, come on now.

Just.. no.

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Lord_Tenebrous

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You're mixing different writers. Everyone has their own idea as to how powerful Force users should generally be, there's very little coordination across material. For instance, Clone Wars Adventures comic series Anakin could manipulate dreadnoughts while TCW Anakin can barely hold a small ship-sized crystal even with Obi-Wan's help. In Dark Rendezvous, Yoda could barely hold up a small ship(and only partially), while Yoda in the 2003 CW microseries could dominate multiple droid carriers simultaneously. Different writers, different opinions. The power levels are far less coordinated than even the martial fights.

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@manaman:

Ah yes. If a source book doesn't tell us the exact weight of jedi robes how could we possibly know they aren't 100 kilos each? You don't need declared weights to know the ball park of how much something weighs. Source books don't have to spoon feed us every tiny detail. Somethings we can infer on our own.

This is a real world 1 ton boulder.

No Caption Provided

Even the smallest pillars would weigh roughly around 2 tons with the bigger ones being in excess of 5+

I can't be asked to repeat myself so here:

No, I'm viewing it in light of the information we already have, including what's shown by other media and sources before and after the Dooku feat and that statement was made.

Without a dedicated source, all we have is speculation. Yoda performed a similar kind of feat - arguably on a greater scale - a few weeks/months after AOTC and with no time to focus, unlike Dooku:

So at best, your argument covers pre-TPM Yoda, who has almost no feats to his name and has countless Jedi and Sith surpassing the feats he does have. Again, shortly post-AOTC Yoda performed a better feat on Dooku with considerably less effort.

Thank you for pointing this out. Yoda lifting the Muntuur stones is a feat inside the Jedi Temple on Coruscant, an extremely powerful lightside nexus that empowers lightsiders.

The fact that you couldn't be bothered to read is what makes this quite insulting. I'm talking about this:

No Caption Provided

Which he did while unamped.

So, in light of Yoda clearly outperforming the Dooku feat you showed above (which took place at a later point, when Dooku was growing) a mere few weeks after AOTC: how is Dooku > Yoda in TK?

Your best bet is to argue that Dooku > (pre-)TPM Yoda given the Dooku vs Yoda fight, not with an arbitrary feats comparison that doesn't hold up within the same show, let alone when all other media is taken into account.