Powe Scales

Ok I'm doing a project and would like yalls opinions to help out on this.

At the Marvel site there is a listing for every characters powers on a scale 1-7. Stats are Intelligence, Strength, Speed, Durability, Energy projection, Fighting skills.

Since that site has mavel done(even if I dont agree with all of it) how would everyone rate the noteable people of the DC on this scale. Batman, Superman, Aquaman, Green Arrow, Martian Manhunter, etc etc.

Batman; Intelligence 6/Strength 5/Speed 4/Durability 5/Energy projection 3/Fighting ability 7

Superman; Intelligence 5/Strength 7/Speed 7/Durability 7/Energy projection 6/Fighting ability 6

it would also help the description of the scales

like which number of scale is intelligent over human level?

I'm not exactly sure how it is set up over there on that site, but looking through the differant people nd thier stats there this is what I've come up with.

1 Feelbe

2 Below average

3 Seems to be average human

4 Above average mybe olympic level

5 Peak human limit?

6 Super human

7 Best of the best (Hulk's strength, Reed's intelligence etc)

I was doing something like that too...but I don't rely much on the marvel site...I feel the scales there are a bit.."twisted"...there was an old marvel site,it had a scale....but it wasn't as secific as the new one...from what I did observe it was something like 2 equaled normal human being and from there on it was geting always more and more onto the overhuman superhuman tadatadataada.....for instance Punisher Int/2 Str/2 Sp/2 End/2 En.Pro/1 Figh.Skill/6.......although each stat had a difierent "average level"...for example normal average Int. would be a "3"..that meant that the character had the "normal" Int. from a graduaded person..on the level of knowledge....average strength meaning that it doesn't surpass human levels, would be a "2"......in speed as well.....Fighting skill is a whole different thing....For instance..Cap has a "7" in that area.....and punisher "6".....Wolvie "7"....Blade "5"...and so on....the only thing I'm not sure of is Energy Projection......what do they mean whith that???.....is it something like Drogan ball???....Here's my example for Bats,in that format...... Int/6 Str/2 Sp/2 End/2 En.Pro/1 Fighting Skill/6....OH! forgot endurance...that means how much punishment they can receive,am I right??.....Project.

Intelligence.

1. Slow/Impaired

2. Normal

3. Learned

4. Gifted

5. Genious

6. Super-Genious

7. Omniscient

Strength.

1. Weak-Cannot lift own body weight

2. Normal-Able to lift up to twice own body weight

3. Peak-Able to lift up to 800 pounds

4. Superhuman-Includes "enhanced human-800lbs-2tons" above 800 lbs up to 25 tons

5. Superhuman-Above 25 tons up to 75 tons

6. Superhuman-Above 75 tons up to 100 tons

7. Incalculable-Able to lift in far excess of 100 tons

Speed.

1. Below Normal

2. Normal

3. Subsonic Superhuman-Peak velocity below Mach-1 (approx. 760 mph)

4. Speed of Sound-Peak velocity between Mach-1 and Mach-2

5. Supersonic-Peak velocity between Mach-2 and Orbital Velocity (approx. 17,000mph)

6. Speed of Light-Peak velocity up to 186,000 miles per second

7. Warp Speed-Transcending light speed or teleporter (instantaneous travel)

Durability.

1. Weak

2. Normal

3. Enhanced

4. Regenerative

5. Bullet Proof

6. Super Human

7. Virtually Indestructible

Energy Projection.

1. None

2. Ability to discharge energy on contact

3. Short range, short duration, single energy type

4. Medium range, medium duration, single energy type

5. Long range, long duration, single energy type

6. Able to discharge multiple forms of energy

7. Virtually unlimited command over all forms of energy

Fighting Ability.

1. Poor

2. Normal

3. Some training

4. Experienced fighter

5. Master of single form of combat

6. Master of several forms of combat

7. Master of all forms of combat

Superman is:

Intelligence-5

Strength-7

Speed-6

Durability-7

Energy Projection-5

Fighting Ability-4

Any others? I would try and do a bunch (will eventually) but my kowledg of the DC universe is lacking in a lot of areas.

Batman:

Intelligence-5/6

Strength-3

Speed-2

Durability-2

Energy Projection-1

Fighting Ability-6

Batman is not a master of all forms of combat, just a large amount of them.

Dormammu says:

"Batman:Intelligence-5/6Strength-3Speed-2Durability-2Energy Projection-1Fighting Ability-6"

No way, fighting should be 7 for him. Other then that, fine

Yup,...that looks good... :)

Having just 7 ranks is way too limiting.

It provides little ability to differentiate between characters.

There should be more ranks perhaps in the order of 10 - 15 to permit the characters to be split up more (both in the mid levels and the more cosmic levels)

Animal Man

Intellegence:3. His odd experiences have educated him in a way no formal training could

Strength:6. The strength of a Blue whale is enough to move 100+tons

Speed:3.A man sized flea can possibly launch itself atextreme speeds.

Durability:4. The recuperative abilities of a starfish

Energy Projection:4. Able to blast with the Red (imo, corny)

Fighting:3/5 as a man he has scuffled, but if he allows animal instincts in he exhibits a fighting style natural to that animal.

I have done this before. I could rank the Main 7 of the JLA using Marvel's scales.

Batman

Strength: 3

Speed: 2

Durability: 2

Energy Projection: 1

Intelligence: 6

Fighting Skills: 7

Superman

Strength: 7

Speed: 5

Durability: 7

Energy Projection: 6

Intelligence: 4

Fighting Skills: 4

Wonder Woman

Strength: 7

Speed: 5

Durability: 6

Energy Projection: 1

Intelligence: 3

Fighting Skills: 6

Martain Manhunter

Strength: 7

Speed: 5

Durability: 7

Energy Projection: 6

Intelligence: 5

Fighting Skills: 4

Flash

Strength: 2

Speed: 6

Durability: 2

Energy Projection: 2

Intelligence: 2

Fighing Skills: 4

Aquaman

Strength: 6

Speed: 3

Durability: 4(not sure)

Energy Projection: 4

Intelligence: 4

Fighting Skills: 6

Plastic Man

Strength: 2(could probably make himself a 6)

Speed: 2

Durability: 6

Energy Projection: 1

Intelligence: 3

FIghting Skills: 3

The_Creator says:

"Having just 7 ranks is way too limiting. It provides little ability to differentiate between characters. There should be more ranks perhaps in the order of 10 - 15 to permit the characters to be split up more (both in the mid levels and the more cosmic levels)"

I agree with you completely. If Batman is ranked as a 3 in strength you then have to fit a wide range of characters (Wolverine, Spider-Man, Beast, Colossus, Thor, Sentry, Hulk, Wonder Woman, and Superman, to name a few) over the four remaining fields. You make Wolverine a 4 and have to bump Spider-Man (who can lift at least 20 more tons than Wolverine) into rank 5. Well then that means that Colossus has to be in rank 6 but now you have Thor who is many times stronger than Colossus and Superman who is many times stronger than Thor, sharing the 7 slot. It just doesnt make any sense to limit it to 7 levels.

Andferne says:

"I'm not exactly sure how it is set up over there on that site, but looking through the differant people nd thier stats there this is what I've come up with.1 Feelbe2 Below average3 Seems to be average human4 Above average mybe olympic level5 Peak human limit?6 Super human7 Best of the best (Hulk's strength, Reed's intelligence etc)"

Actually it's

1 Below average.

2 Average

3 As good as you can get Not with intelligence naturally

4 Superhuman.

5 Medium level superhuman

6 High level Superhuman

7 Highest level superhuman

With intellect it's

1 Below average

2 Average

3 Learned

4 Bright Spider man's level

5 Genius

6 Super human intellect

7 Omniscent

Genius-Level Intellect: Superman has shown enhanced intelligence and computational abilities; his mind works sharply and with extreme speed. His analytical powers are impressive — he is able to use his senses to read information directly from machines (and, with careful usage of his heat vision, he can even reprogram machines)..hes also posseses a photographic memory which means he has total recall.

Superman's intelligence is actually level 5.

Rotten gun says:

"it is at this moment that the panel displaying supermans terrible mathmatics should appear... anyone got it?"

M

Dormammu says:

"Genius-Level Intellect: Superman has shown enhanced intelligence and computational abilities; his mind works sharply and with extreme speed. His analytical powers are impressive — he is able to use his senses to read information directly from machines (and, with careful usage of his heat vision, he can even reprogram machines)..hes also posseses a photographic memory which means he has total recall. Superman's intelligence is actually level 5."

it is at this moment that the panel displaying supermans terrible mathmatics should appear... anyone got it?

wow thanx guys. I figured this would of died and I would of had a crap load of reading and searching to do for me to get thier numbers.

Anyone got any takes on Green Arrow, Supergirl, Power Girl, Brainiac, Batmans notable villians, Robin, Nightwing.

Methos says:

"Rotten gun says:

"it is at this moment that the panel displaying supermans terrible mathmatics should appear... anyone got it?"

M "

Superman - intelligence: 1

Why would batman have a 6 intelligence? He isn't superhuman. How can Batman have a 7 fighting ability? He should not be equal to an immortal like Hercules/Thor in fighting ability.

I agree with Creator having a scale that only goes up to 7 is totally USELESS!!! Marvel got soooo lazy when they came up with this slacka$$ 1-7 scale it is a joke!

Valkaad says:

"Why would batman have a 6 intelligence? He isn't superhuman. How can Batman have a 7 fighting ability? He should not be equal to an immortal like Hercules/Thor in fighting ability."

Disagree. From what's demonstrated I'd put Batman above Thor or Herc. They may be immortal and might potentially be very skilled, but they don't fight like it at all.

Ok since I was doing this project I think I am going to convert i into something bigger and/or more useful. We(comicvine) create our own scale and place the people from across all the publishers on it. Since the majority all seem to agree that 7 is too small a number to scale the varity of people we have, I suggest we open it up to 10, and add in a couple more categorys to go along with what is presented.

Here is my idea (would like feeback for best result)

Scales will range from 1-10

1) Below average

2) Average

3) Gifted/Above average

4) Low Superhuman

5) Mid Superhuman

6) High Superhuman

7) Low Metahuman

8) Mid Metahuman

9) High Metahuman

10) Omnipotent

Categorys

Strength (ability to lift aboe head with arms extended)

Agility (ability to moce the body with flexibility and coordination)

Durability (ability to resist or recover from injury or disease)

Speed (ability to move by flying or running)

Intelligence (ability to think)

Stamina (ability to sustain peak exertion before fatigue impairs performance)

Fighting Ability (ability to fight in hand to hand combat)

Energy Projection (ability to exert non-physical powers)

Mental Powers (ability to control, maniulate, or resist the mind)

Need one more category??????

What do yall think so far?

Buckshot says:

"Valkaad says:

"Why would batman have a 6 intelligence? He isn't superhuman. How can Batman have a 7 fighting ability? He should not be equal to an immortal like Hercules/Thor in fighting ability."

Disagree. From what's demonstrated I'd put Batman above Thor or Herc. They may be immortal and might potentially be very skilled, but they don't fight like it at all. "

Yeah, but I think its more because they have so much power that they don't have do to fancy moves as opposed to the fact that they can't. My problem with bats having a 7 fighting ability is that he is roughly 30-40 years old and has trained what 15-25 years max. The fact that he would be on the same level as champion, who has trained for 5 billion years and traveled to other galaxies mastering fighting styles all over the universe just doesn't add up.

Valkaad says:

"Yeah, but I think its more because they have so much power that they don't have do to fancy moves as opposed to the fact that they can't. My problem with bats having a 7 fighting ability is that he is roughly 30-40 years old and has trained what 15-25 years max. The fact that he would be on the same level as champion, who has trained for 5 billion years and traveled to other galaxies mastering fighting styles all over the universe just doesn't add up. "

That part (about the Champion) I agree with, but not the stuff about Thor and Herc. Aside from the simple fact that they haven't shown the skill, going by your own assumption - that they don't use "fancy moves" because they have enough strength that they don't need to - what if they never learned for that same reason. They've had all that power for all their lives (except for temporary depowerings and stuff) so why would they spend much time learning to fight? If their power lets them win now without needing fancy moves, that would be true for as long as they've had their power wouldn't it?

Try to look at it this way with the scales. Lets say we have Thor vs Batman

Thor; Strength 7 and Fighting ability 5 (total 12)

Batman; Strength 3 and Fighting ability 7 (total 10)

Overall Thor would win. Same thing could go for Energy projection in a fight with lets say Superman and .....fill in the blank. I treat the stats kinda like a card game of sorts where certain attrubites work with others to make a whole. So this way you could have bats be a overall better fighter from a trained tactical standpoint (which I think he is), but when you throw in strength and or durability Batman then gets blown out of the water by Thor.

Andferne says:

"Ok since I was doing this project I think I am going to convert i into something bigger and/or more useful. We(comicvine) create our own scale and place the people from across all the publishers on it. Since the majority all seem to agree that 7 is too small a number to scale the varity of people we have, I suggest we open it up to 10, and add in a couple more categorys to go along with what is presented. Here is my idea (would like feeback for best result) Scales will range from 1-10 1) Below average 2) Average 3) Gifted/Above average 4) Low Superhuman 5) Mid Superhuman 6) High Superhuman 7) Low Metahuman 8) Mid Metahuman 9) High Metahuman 10) Omnipotent Categorys Strength (ability to lift aboe head with arms extended) Agility (ability to moce the body with flexibility and coordination) Durability (ability to resist or recover from injury or disease) Speed (ability to move by flying or running) Intelligence (ability to think) Stamina (ability to sustain peak exertion before fatigue impairs performance) Fighting Ability (ability to fight in hand to hand combat) Energy Projection (ability to exert non-physical powers) Mental Powers (ability to control, maniulate, or resist the mind) Need one more category?????? What do yall think so far?"

I think that more ranks would be needed and I also favour scaling the ranks i.e. for strength having weight ranks.

I will have a think over Christmas and come back with a proposal for them.

Ok

I'm more than willing to hash out some ideas and stats with people here to come out with a system we all think can work out. I like doing side projects like this to kill time.

At one time I converted all the marvel main stream people from those stats to D20 modern stats (D&D type game). They came out pretty good, just wasnt a lot of feedback on the boards there.

I've already thought about turning whatever type of system we come up with into a battle type system as well. Useing a die as the random factor. Adding strength(or energy projection) with fighting ability to get your attack score, then opponet rolls a defense useing agility(mental power) and fighting ability. But I wont get more into this until we have sometihng more solid.

Andferne says:

"Ok I'm more than willing to hash out some ideas and stats with people here to come out with a system we all think can work out. I like doing side projects like this to kill time. At one time I converted all the marvel main stream people from those stats to D20 modern stats (D&D type game). They came out pretty good, just wasnt a lot of feedback on the boards there. I've already thought about turning whatever type of system we come up with into a battle type system as well. Useing a die as the random factor. Adding strength(or energy projection) with fighting ability to get your attack score, then opponet rolls a defense useing agility(mental power) and fighting ability. But I wont get more into this until we have sometihng more solid."

I have similar goals. I have worked on and off for 10 years converting most of the Marvel and DC universes to Champions stats.

Not familiar with Champions. Is that a card game? dice?

Andferne says:

"Not familiar with Champions. Is that a card game? dice? "

Perish the thought...

It's a actual Role Playing Game.

Uses the Hero system of rules (from Hero Games).

Methos says:

"Andferne says:

"Scales will range from 1-10 1) Below average 2) Average 3) Gifted/Above average 4) Low Superhuman 5) Mid Superhuman 6) High Superhuman 7) Low Metahuman 8) Mid Metahuman 9) High Metahuman 10) Omnipotent"

i like that scale, a 10 point scale makes more sense than a 7 point scale... let me try... Green Lantern - Hal Jordan Category's Strength - 3 Agility - 2 Durability - 2 Speed - 3 Intelligence - 3 Stamina - 3 Fighting Ability - 3 Energy Projection - 9 Mental Powers - 2 now, one question... do we rank speed, intelligence and durability as the human, or the ring? because theres a vast difference lol M"

You rank both, first stat is Hal, second stat in brackets is with the ring.

Andferne says:

"Scales will range from 1-101) Below average2) Average3) Gifted/Above average4) Low Superhuman5) Mid Superhuman6) High Superhuman7) Low Metahuman8) Mid Metahuman9) High Metahuman10) Omnipotent"

i like that scale, a 10 point scale makes more sense than a 7 point scale...

let me try...

Green Lantern - Hal Jordan

Category's

Strength - 3

Agility - 2

Durability - 2

Speed - 3

Intelligence - 3

Stamina - 3

Fighting Ability - 3

Energy Projection - 9

Mental Powers - 2

now, one question... do we rank speed, intelligence and durability as the human, or the ring? because theres a vast difference lol

M

The_Creator says:

"You rank both, first stat is Hal, second stat in brackets is with the ring."

ok, try again...

Green Lantern - Hal Jordan - Power ring

Category's

Strength - 3 (9)

Agility - 2 (8)

Durability - 2 (9)

Speed - 3 (9)

Intelligence - 3 (6)

Stamina - 3 (5)

Fighting Ability - 3 (8)

Energy Projection - 0 (9)

Mental Powers - 1 (5)

not sure where to rank a few of them because a Power Ring is an extremely powerful weapon in Hal's hands because of his will power...

anyone disagree with those stats?

M

Methos says:

"Rotten gun says:

"it is at this moment that the panel displaying supermans terrible mathmatics should appear... anyone got it?"

M

"

Yeah I see. Check it on a calculator. He is way off.

Dreadnaught says:

"Methos says:

"Rotten gun says:

"it is at this moment that the panel displaying supermans terrible mathmatics should appear... anyone got it?"

M

"

Yeah I see. Check it on a calculator. He is way off. "

Math was different back then.

Buckshot says:

"Dreadnaught says:

"Methos says:

"Rotten gun says:

"it is at this moment that the panel displaying supermans terrible mathmatics should appear... anyone got it?"

M "

Yeah I see. Check it on a calculator. He is way off. "

Math was different back then. "

Yes that's old math. I remember it well.

Buckshot says:

"Valkaad says:

" Yeah, but I think its more because they have so much power that they don't have do to fancy moves as opposed to the fact that they can't. My problem with bats having a 7 fighting ability is that he is roughly 30-40 years old and has trained what 15-25 years max. The fact that he would be on the same level as champion, who has trained for 5 billion years and traveled to other galaxies mastering fighting styles all over the universe just doesn't add up. "

That part (about the Champion) I agree with, but not the stuff about Thor and Herc. Aside from the simple fact that they haven't shown the skill, going by your own assumption - that they don't use "fancy moves" because they have enough strength that they don't need to - what if they never learned for that same reason. They've had all that power for all their lives (except for temporary depowerings and stuff) so why would they spend much time learning to fight? If their power lets them win now without needing fancy moves, that would be true for as long as they've had their power wouldn't it? "

I agree with what you are saying about the moves, they probably haven't learned the kicks, spinning punches, etc. that Batmans has. I do however think that Thor/Herc have defended against (and defeated) people who have fought in ever style that Batman knows and some that Batman doesn't know. I think the fact that have fought in literally thousands of "to the death" battles, mostly against people way stronger, faster, and more battle seasoned than Batman makes them better fighters than any human. Hercules has probably spent more years fighting, literally in the heat of battle, against mythical beasts, other gods, titans, etc. than Batman has even been alive.

I personally like the old marvel universe game charts (they need to be updated):

Fighting: Combat abilty: trained and/or natural.

Rank Description Examples

Feeble No training or ability Children, elderly

Poor Normal human ability Professor X

Typical Natural ability; minimal training Doctor Octopus

Good Some formal training Police, Hawkeye

Excellent Regular, formal training Army, Cyclops

Remarkable Superior talent Spider-Man

Fantastic Master of a form Average Hand or Coda

Incredible Extensive Training, Master of a form Nick Fury

Spectacular Master of several forms Grifter

Amazing Maximum human potential Captain America

Sensational Enhanced Human potential, Extensive Experience Elders of the Kheran Coda,

Monstrous Superhuman potential Asgard’s warriors

Awesome Metahuman Potential, master of all racial and related forms Xena

Unearthly Superhuman with intensive training Thor, Hercules

What categorys should we have then.

Strength

Speed

Agility

Stamina

Durability

Intelligence

Enery projection

Fighting ability

Mental ability (could be used for willpower too?)

I would like to have a even number 6, 8, 10 so with the current ones above we would need one more category.

What about Power Item?

Andferne says:

"What categorys should we have then. Strength Speed Agility Stamina Durability Intelligence Enery projection Fighting ability Mental ability (could be used for willpower too?) I would like to have a even number 6, 8, 10 so with the current ones above we would need one more category. What about Power Item?"

It could be Reputation. Reputation would affect your status in either the hero or villain community. For example if Thor shows up on the scene there aren't very many villains that don't at least think deep down "shi its fucng thor we are gonna get our asss kicked." So if it were on the marvel universe scale I would give him 100 (unearthly) Reputation.

Valkaad says:

"I agree with what you are saying about the moves, they probably haven't learned the kicks, spinning punches, etc. that Batmans has. I do however think that Thor/Herc have defended against (and defeated) people who have fought in ever style that Batman knows and some that Batman doesn't know. I think the fact that have fought in literally thousands of "to the death" battles, mostly against people way stronger, faster, and more battle seasoned than Batman makes them better fighters than any human. Hercules has probably spent more years fighting, literally in the heat of battle, against mythical beasts, other gods, titans, etc. than Batman has even been alive."

That, to me, is like saying that if Superman fought mythical super humans and monsters (using your statement, people way stronger, faster and more battle seasoned than Batman) for thousands of years and won every time, that would be enough to say that he's a better fighter than Batman. And while he would beat Batman 11 times out of 10, I don't think he's a better fighter. He's a powerful character, but not nearly as skilled a fighter. And, just to say it, Superman has fought for thousands of years against magical armies alongside Wonder Woman, but if you took away his powers, I'd still say Batman could take him in a fight.

I like a reputation type scale btter than what I suggested. Good call Valkaad.

Heres my next question. Should each scale have thier own settings or all be based off the same level. How complicated do we want to make this.

With each scale haveing thier own ranking (stregnth by tons), Intelligence (IQ) things could get alittle complicated for people trying to figure it out that have no clue on the scales.

If every stat has the same ranking (below normal, normal, above normal, superhuman etc etc) things could be simplier.

To me it makes no differance, but would like to go with wath the majority think would best fit what we want to show.

Buckshot says:

"Valkaad says:

" I agree with what you are saying about the moves, they probably haven't learned the kicks, spinning punches, etc. that Batmans has. I do however think that Thor/Herc have defended against (and defeated) people who have fought in ever style that Batman knows and some that Batman doesn't know. I think the fact that have fought in literally thousands of "to the death" battles, mostly against people way stronger, faster, and more battle seasoned than Batman makes them better fighters than any human. Hercules has probably spent more years fighting, literally in the heat of battle, against mythical beasts, other gods, titans, etc. than Batman has even been alive. "

That, to me, is like saying that if Superman fought mythical super humans and monsters (using your statement, people way stronger, faster and more battle seasoned than Batman) for thousands of years and won every time, that would be enough to say that he's a better fighter than Batman. And while he *would* beat Batman 11 times out of 10, I don't think he's a better fighter. He's a powerful character, but not nearly as skilled a fighter. And, just to say it, Superman *has* fought for thousands of years against magical armies alongside Wonder Woman, but if you took away his powers, I'd still say Batman could take him in a fight. "

I think if Thor and Batman fought and they both had equal physical abilities Thor would win. Like I said I think he has defended against guys that have done everything Batman can do and more. So I think it they fought (with equal abilities) Thors thousands of years of battle experience would allow him to outmanuever and (in a fight)outthink/outclass Batman. I don't Think he would be flashy I think he would anticipate what Batman was going to do just by seeing it and would react in the most simple and direct fashion. I think the difference in Thor and Superman is that yes they have both fought for thousands of years, but superman was raised as a "farmboy" and aged like an earth child. Meanwhile Thor was in asgard being trained extensively to fight since he was able to walk. It took Thor hundreds(thousands?) of years to "grow" to manhood and he trained for all of them (its was asgardians do, their heaven is constant battle).

Valkaad says:

"I think if Thor and Batman fought and they both had equal physical abilities Thor would win. Like I said I think he has defended against guys that have done everything Batman can do and more. So I think it they fought (with equal abilities) Thors thousands of years of battle experience would allow him to outmanuever and (in a fight)outthink/outclass Batman. I don't Think he would be flashy I think he would anticipate what Batman was going to do just by seeing it and would react in the most simple and direct fashion. I think the difference in Thor and Superman is that yes they have both fought for thousands of years, but superman was raised as a "farmboy" and aged like an earth child. Meanwhile Thor was in asgard being trained extensively to fight since he was able to walk. It took Thor hundreds(thousands?) of years to "grow" to manhood and he trained for all of them (its was asgardians do, their heaven is constant battle). "

I don't think their experience (not without some kind of example or evidence) is enough to make them better fighters. Here me out. Just seeing a bunch of people fighting with different styles or facing people in combat doesn't necessarily make you an expert at defeating that style if it comes up again. You're saying that just by seeing Batman do something they'd know exactly how to counteract it thanks to their centuries of battle. The main reason I disagree with that is because while they may have fought a lot, I don't think they've done enough (specifically, against the right opponents) to just intuit ways to counter and defeat any attack.

Beating a ton of people with no skill teaches you nothing. Beating a ton of incredibly skilled people with your vastly superior physical attributes or magical power doesn't teach you anything about hand to hand fighting either. For Herc or Thor to get something from fighting a lot of people, they'd have to be involved in at least some extended combat with people with some skill. How many people of Thor's strength/power class or higher (in Marvel or elsewhere) are actually skilled fighters? I can think of The Champion off the top of my head. You're saying that them facing a lot of enemies would teach them how to counter anything Batman can do, but if the majority of their fights aren't decided by skill (either because the opponent isn't all the skilled or because the power difference makes martial arts useless) they won't learn enough to just be able to know how to stop someone like Batman. If they're not facing skilled fighters in battles where they have to fight on their terms (no magic, no strength advantage, etc) they won't get the kind of experience they need for that kind of fight.

When you have a magic hammer and more strength than almost everyone you fight, you don't really need as much skill, and even if your enemy has it, if you can beat them easily, you won't learn anything from that. If you're fighting monsters all the time, that won't teach you to combat an extremely skilled human should you ever be depowered. I'm not discounting their experience entirely, and I'm not saying fighting for so long doesn't teach you anything, but I don't think every, or even most, of the battles they've fought are ones that could prepare them for a fight against a comic book martial arts master if they had no powers. This is all my opinion of course and I'm no authority on who Herc and Thor have fought in the past, I'm just looking at how I see Thor and Herc fight in the present and the powers I know they have. The comics with Thor as a teen (how many thousands of years ago was that) show that he is/was a skilled fighter that can do more than punch and throw a hammer, but Captain America beat a depowered Thor in the present.

Buckshot says:

"Valkaad says:

"I think if Thor and Batman fought and they both had equal physical abilities Thor would win. Like I said I think he has defended against guys that have done everything Batman can do and more. So I think it they fought (with equal abilities) Thors thousands of years of battle experience would allow him to outmanuever and (in a fight)outthink/outclass Batman. I don't Think he would be flashy I think he would anticipate what Batman was going to do just by seeing it and would react in the most simple and direct fashion. I think the difference in Thor and Superman is that yes they have both fought for thousands of years, but superman was raised as a "farmboy" and aged like an earth child. Meanwhile Thor was in asgard being trained extensively to fight since he was able to walk. It took Thor hundreds(thousands?) of years to "grow" to manhood and he trained for all of them (its was asgardians do, their heaven is constant battle). "

I don't think their experience (not without some kind of example or evidence) is enough to make them better fighters. Here me out. Just seeing a bunch of people fighting with different styles or facing people in combat doesn't necessarily make you an expert at defeating that style if it comes up again. You're saying that just by seeing Batman do something they'd know exactly how to counteract it thanks to their centuries of battle. The main reason I disagree with that is because while they may have fought a lot, I don't think they've done enough (specifically, against the right opponents) to just intuit ways to counter and defeat any attack.

Beating a ton of people with no skill teaches you nothing. Beating a ton of incredibly skilled people with your vastly superior physical attributes or magical power doesn't teach you anything about hand to hand fighting either. For Herc or Thor to get something from fighting a lot of people, they'd have to be involved in at least some extended combat with people with some skill. How many people of Thor's strength/power class or higher (in Marvel or elsewhere) are actually skilled fighters? I can think of The Champion off the top of my head. You're saying that them facing a lot of enemies would teach them how to counter anything Batman can do, but if the majority of their fights aren't decided by skill (either because the opponent isn't all the skilled or because the power difference makes martial arts useless) they won't learn enough to just be able to know how to stop someone like Batman. If they're not facing skilled fighters in battles where they have to fight on their terms (no magic, no strength advantage, etc) they won't get the kind of experience they need for that kind of fight.

When you have a magic hammer and more strength than almost everyone you fight, you don't really need as much skill, and even if your enemy has it, if you can beat them easily, you won't learn anything from that. If you're fighting monsters all the time, that won't teach you to combat an extremely skilled human should you ever be depowered. I'm not discounting their experience entirely, and I'm not saying fighting for so long doesn't teach you anything, but I don't think every, or even most, of the battles they've fought are ones that could prepare them for a fight against a comic book martial arts master if they had no powers. This is all my opinion of course and I'm no authority on who Herc and Thor have fought in the past, I'm just looking at how I see Thor and Herc fight in the present and the powers I know they have. The comics with Thor as a teen (how many thousands of years ago was that) show that he is/was a skilled fighter that can do more than punch and throw a hammer, but Captain America beat a depowered Thor in the present.

"

Excellent post man.

I think Thor's fighting ability also invilves his masery of his hammer and how to use it. Fighting ability is/should not just be h2h but your overall effectiveness in melee. I think there is no doubt that Thor is a weapons master when it comes to the warhammer and its fighting style. Other than that he is a brawler and a wrestler that I cna think of at the top of my head.

Buckshot says:

"Valkaad says:

" I think if Thor and Batman fought and they both had equal physical abilities Thor would win. Like I said I think he has defended against guys that have done everything Batman can do and more. So I think it they fought (with equal abilities) Thors thousands of years of battle experience would allow him to outmanuever and (in a fight)outthink/outclass Batman. I don't Think he would be flashy I think he would anticipate what Batman was going to do just by seeing it and would react in the most simple and direct fashion. I think the difference in Thor and Superman is that yes they have both fought for thousands of years, but superman was raised as a "farmboy" and aged like an earth child. Meanwhile Thor was in asgard being trained extensively to fight since he was able to walk. It took Thor hundreds(thousands?) of years to "grow" to manhood and he trained for all of them (its was asgardians do, their heaven is constant battle). "

I don't think their experience (not without some kind of example or evidence) is enough to make them better fighters. Here me out. Just seeing a bunch of people fighting with different styles or facing people in combat doesn't necessarily make you an expert at defeating that style if it comes up again. You're saying that just by seeing Batman do something they'd know exactly how to counteract it thanks to their centuries of battle. The main reason I disagree with that is because while they may have fought a lot, I don't think they've done enough (specifically, against the right opponents) to just intuit ways to counter and defeat any attack. Beating a ton of people with no skill teaches you nothing. Beating a ton of incredibly skilled people with your vastly superior physical attributes or magical power doesn't teach you anything about hand to hand fighting either. For Herc or Thor to get something from fighting a lot of people, they'd have to be involved in at least some extended combat with people with some skill. How many people of Thor's strength/power class or higher (in Marvel or elsewhere) are actually skilled fighters? I can think of The Champion off the top of my head. You're saying that them facing a lot of enemies would teach them how to counter anything Batman can do, but if the majority of their fights aren't decided by skill (either because the opponent isn't all the skilled or because the power difference makes martial arts useless) they won't learn enough to just be able to know how to stop someone like Batman. If they're not facing skilled fighters in battles where they have to fight on their terms (no magic, no strength advantage, etc) they won't get the kind of experience they need for that kind of fight. When you have a magic hammer and more strength than almost everyone you fight, you don't really need as much skill, and even if your enemy has it, if you can beat them easily, you won't learn anything from that. If you're fighting monsters all the time, that won't teach you to combat an extremely skilled human should you ever be depowered. I'm not discounting their experience entirely, and I'm not saying fighting for so long doesn't teach you anything, but I don't think every, or even most, of the battles they've fought are ones that could prepare them for a fight against a comic book martial arts master if they had no powers. This is all my opinion of course and I'm no authority on who Herc and Thor have fought in the past, I'm just looking at how I see Thor and Herc fight in the present and the powers I know they have. The comics with Thor as a teen (how many thousands of years ago was that) show that he is/was a skilled fighter that can do more than punch and throw a hammer, but Captain America beat a depowered Thor in the present. "

i said that about vampires or swordsmen or something a while ago and i've seen other people make that point too. i think gambler said that about that immortal methos and his centuries of hiding in a church somewhere. i agree completely!