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#101 Edited by ImpurestCheese (12542 posts) - - Show Bio

@jaken7: Most people are pretty accepting in the UK when I tell them, it's something that while not normal isn't unexpected. The only problem I ever had was from older people when I kissed my partner in a café. They called the barrista over and complained and we were told to dial it down. They also complained about a heterosexual couple and a woman breastfeeding so it wasn't just us.

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#102 Posted by JakeN7 (15180 posts) - - Show Bio
@ccraft said:

@impurestcheese said:

@ccraft: Yep we do. Still it would be nice to see some women who fit the normal body shape rather than big breasted women in skimpy costumes. Give me Songbird over Ms. Marvel any day.

I agree, have you ever seen the barbie doll compared to what real women look like? It would be nice to see some normal looking women in comics, looks isn't every thing it's the personality that makes a woman truly beautiful. It's impossible for most men to get a women who looks like WW anyways so why not make women look a little more realistic?

http://www.businessinsider.com/barbie-doll-with-real-womans-measurements-2013-7

That other doll is much more beautiful!

I think Rob Liefeld played with too many Barbies when he was a little girl...

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#103 Posted by JakeN7 (15180 posts) - - Show Bio

@jaken7: Most people are pretty accepting in the UK when I tell them, it's something that while not normal isn't unexpected. The only problem I ever had was from older people when I kissed my partner in a café. They called the barrista over and complained and we were told to dial it down. They also complained about a heterosexual couple and a woman breastfeeding so it wasn't just us.

I actually think that's pretty great that they weren't necessarily offended by your homosexuality, just by your (I'm assuming completely appropriate for public) display of affection (as evidenced by their other complaints.)

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#104 Posted by ImpurestCheese (12542 posts) - - Show Bio

@ccraft: True on all accounts. There are only a few women who look like WW anyway.

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#105 Posted by Oscars94 (3185 posts) - - Show Bio

When they stop giving every male superhero impossibly chiseled abs then and only then will I accept that over sexualization of women is an issue in comics.

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#106 Posted by ImpurestCheese (12542 posts) - - Show Bio

@jaken7: Nope. My religion causes more headaches then my sexuality.

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#107 Edited by JakeN7 (15180 posts) - - Show Bio

@oscars94 said:

When they stop giving every male superhero impossibly chiseled abs then and only then will I accept that over sexualization of women is an issue in comics.

Hey look, someone who didn't read any of the other posts before commenting.

@impurestcheese said:

@ccraft: True on all accounts. There are only a few women who look like WW anyway.

Gal Gadot one of 'em? Ba-dum-tish

And I'm sorry to hear your religion is a burden on your identity, that's always tough.

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#108 Posted by BloodyNights (185 posts) - - Show Bio

Meh, women are getting their revenge on the male populace with things like Vampire Knight, Twilight, Vampire Diaries, Loki, Free, whatever else. Sure it's tilted in Men's favor in terms of fanservice by quite a bit. But both sexes are guilty of it. The demographic for comics is targeted towards males. I also think alot of stuff is just taken too seriously. Like a shower scene. I've seen them for both sexes it doesn't make me want to have a wank for either. Is it over sexualized when Batman takes off his shirt, and gets bandages around his ribs, doubt anyone would say it is. But if Babs shows her tummy, wrapped in bandages with a bra. Because she has tits she's instantly over sexualized. I think it's silly all around. Sure Catwoman is over sexualized, but her comic is also terrible, and she was ment to be a flirt. Same with Poison Ivy. Using characters with that design in mind, is a tough sell for me to use in a battle of sexes. Reading Batgirl, Batwoman, and Wonder Woman's New 52 comics, I never felt like I was looking at something that was meant for a horny teenager. So really it just depends on who's doing it. Since Sex is everywhere, I don't think comics need to change, just do research on what you are getting into.

Also Fans of Starfire from the cartoon, going into the New 52 comic...I hate to tell you this...but she was a slut who wore skimpy clothing in it too. Her first meeting with Robin she kissed him out of the blue. :P I know I'm being mean but hey go look at her outfit and imagine it drawn more normalized for comics.

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#109 Posted by ImpurestCheese (12542 posts) - - Show Bio

@jaken7: Not a burden just that lot's of people accossiate it with witchcraft and having 'hundreds' of holidays which is wrong on both accounts.

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#110 Edited by Oscars94 (3185 posts) - - Show Bio

@jaken7: Oh I read them, I just don't agree. Your argument is mostly on how women don't look like that in real life, They are overly sexualized etc. shower scenes... Men don't look like they do in comics, unless they stay in the gym popping pills 24/7. Feminist arguments usually collapse on themselves given enough time. For the record, so do misogynist arguments as well.

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#111 Posted by JakeN7 (15180 posts) - - Show Bio

@jaken7: Not a burden just that lot's of people accossiate it with witchcraft and having 'hundreds' of holidays which is wrong on both accounts.

My Auntie's a Wiccan!

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#112 Edited by silent_bomber (4932 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't see muscles as a power fantasy personally.

I see them as being there to show the comic book heroes themselves as something impressive, like gods among humans, IE to make their unnatural feats more believable (OK, slightly more believable than before LOL), and make them look bad ass.

I think that's one of the main differences though, muscles are there for utility, the superhero's have a reason to look like that, whilst the super-heroine's have no real reason to look like hookers. The Superheroines pulling off all these huge feats of strength should look incredibly muscular too, but that is unattractive to the male audience so they're not drawn like that.

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#113 Posted by JakeN7 (15180 posts) - - Show Bio

@oscars94 said:

@jaken7: Oh I read them, I just don't agree. Your argument is mostly on how women don't look like that in real life, They are overly sexualized etc. shower scenes... Men don't look like they do in comics, unless they stay in the gym popping pills 24/7. Feminist arguments usually collapse on themselves given enough time. For the record, so do misogynist arguments as well.

So you didn't read them. My points had little to do with misrepresentation, and much more to do with inequivalent representation between genders.

One-sided feminist bias arguments collapse (see Anna Sarkeesian). Mine doesn't, and I'm far from a feminist (or a misogynist).

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#114 Posted by ImpurestCheese (12542 posts) - - Show Bio

@jaken7: Yep Wiccan and proud.

Speaking of Transgender I remembered that in my Thunderbolts fan-fic I had Abe Jenkins brain put in a women (who he indirectly crippled) body. Small world huh.

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#115 Edited by Wolverine008 (51027 posts) - - Show Bio

@jaken7:

I'll shamefully admit that as a straight man, I find a young, homosexual woman who is a comic book fan..."interesting."

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#116 Posted by TommyJones1945 (751 posts) - - Show Bio

Blah.................Blah..............F******* Blah. Who gives a cookie.

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#117 Posted by Wolverine008 (51027 posts) - - Show Bio

@lykopis:

Guess what little Jimmy wants to do when he sees Mary Jane?

Lil Jimmy became Wolverine!

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#118 Posted by Joygirl (21036 posts) - - Show Bio

A big issue is that women can be sexy without having the exact same body type. My original character is slim with small breasts, shortish hair, extensive scarring, and (sometimes) a really bad attitude. But she's still sexy because of how she handles herself -- her confidence, her attitude, her posture, her personality, and her grace. I designed her to be sexy, but I designed her to be sexy in a DIFFERENT way. Not everyone is Black Cat, and Black Cat isn't the only thing that can be attractive.

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#119 Edited by lykopis (10845 posts) - - Show Bio
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#120 Posted by JakeN7 (15180 posts) - - Show Bio

@wolverine08: Moustaches and muscles should be your motto

...alliteration is always aesthetically appealing to appraise.

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#121 Posted by MisterAnderson (517 posts) - - Show Bio

All women in my world look as though Frank Cho pooped them out and J. Scott Campbell clothed them in thong-sized denim (which looks really uncomfortable) and perpetually wet-looking t-shirts. Just keep their scandalous ankles hidden, and I have no complaints.

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#122 Edited by JakeN7 (15180 posts) - - Show Bio

All women in my world look as though Frank Cho pooped them out and J. Scott Campbell clothed them in thong-sized denim (which looks really uncomfortable) and perpetually wet-looking t-shirts. Just keep their scandalous ankles hidden, and I have no complaints.

No Caption Provided

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#123 Posted by MisterAnderson (517 posts) - - Show Bio
@jaken7 said:

@misteranderson said:

All women in my world look as though Frank Cho pooped them out and J. Scott Campbell clothed them in thong-sized denim (which looks really uncomfortable) and perpetually wet-looking t-shirts. Just keep their scandalous ankles hidden, and I have no complaints.

No Caption Provided

This meme makes me want to buy a camera.

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#124 Posted by Wolverine008 (51027 posts) - - Show Bio

All women in my world look as though Frank Cho pooped them out and J. Scott Campbell clothed them in thong-sized denim (which looks really uncomfortable) and perpetually wet-looking t-shirts. Just keep their scandalous ankles hidden, and I have no complaints.

Well said.

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#125 Posted by ccraft (12437 posts) - - Show Bio

@jaken7: wow I would say so, most of his art does look similar to a Barbie lol

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#126 Edited by MetalJimmor (6448 posts) - - Show Bio

Are you seriously a man? Or just a virgin? Probably both I guess. Let me tell you, that is EXACTLY what EVERY straight man would do.

This is factually incorrect. That is not what every man would do.

Personally I find the idea that every single man will sleep with any woman that offers to be an offensive stereotype.

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#128 Posted by Thewhitecrownofphoenix_stormforever (481 posts) - - Show Bio

@erik:

It's disqusting for a strong female to have casual sex for the fun of it ONCE so far in the entire series so far, your a sexist slut shamming woman hating peice of shit you know that.

Calm down

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#130 Posted by Thewhitecrownofphoenix_stormforever (481 posts) - - Show Bio

There is way too many double standards with this. When a woman gets sexualized it is wrong but when a male does it is a power fantasy. Basically you are avoiding the question. Your stereotyping every single male and saying they all have the same logic like the feminist @jaken7 Who basically said all men will have sex with a hot female that wants to. Guess what. Things go both ways. People use power fantasy as an defense mechanism so they are free of getting all their nonsense spouted back at them, while they can keep complaining. Why can't I say that for women it is a power fantasy, and that all women aspire to be confident, lean, firm, and sexy. See I can do it to. I can TELL other people what THEY like and what THEY think

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#131 Edited by fodigg (6244 posts) - - Show Bio

@imthedamnbatman said:

@fodigg: Except women don't like men to be sexualized like that, women like men to be sexualized by showing off their muscles and appearing strong, which is exactly what is being conveyed.

Even if you accept "women like muscular men", there's a difference between how they're posed and portrayed. Hence why Batman is pretty much just still a power fantasy and yet male characters like Nightwing and Catman have a serious female fanbase. They're all muscular, but some are power portrayals and some are more sexualized-for-women portrayals.

There aren't enough of the latter and even if there were suddenly an overwhelming amount of that, male characters don't have the negative stereotype associated with them so it still wouldn't have the same negative context/meaning.

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#132 Posted by ccraft (12437 posts) - - Show Bio

@movieartman: No you guys only complain because she doesn't have big boobs and a WW figure. I can understand why people would argue that shes not a great actress, but people keep saying cast unknowns, right? Gal Gadot already confirmed she will bulk up for the role so the skinny thing isn't a problem.

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#134 Posted by movieartman (1886 posts) - - Show Bio

@ccraft:

False and we complained about it BEFORE she came out saying she would bulk up

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#135 Edited by ccraft (12437 posts) - - Show Bio

@movieartman: Half the comments complaining about her casting were mostly about her boobs, and for others saying shes to skinny is just a polite way of saying "boobs aren't big enough." True.

False and we complained about it BEFORE she came out saying she would bulk up

You guys were still in the wrong for complaining too early, Henry Cavill wasn't buff BEFORE he was cast as Superman. True.

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#136 Edited by movieartman (1886 posts) - - Show Bio

@ccraft:

Actually he was, he wasn't as big but he was still pretty muscular in immortals

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#137 Posted by Jeepeh (6134 posts) - - Show Bio

@imthedamnbatman: Your best thread I've seen.

@jaken7 said:

Blah blah, something about women and their suffrage and how they're not equal to men, blah blah. Lol!

But seriously, women still beat out men in the over-sexualization. When's the last time you saw a panel with a male hero taking a shower? Apparently women are just so much dirtier after crime-fighting. When's the last time you saw a panel that was just short of revealing a male character's private parts? Or have a male character take 10 panels to put on their damn costume? While I think a lot of feminist ideas are completely one-sided, comic fans don't really have a leg to stand on.

It happens from time to time. There's a scene in the Invincible Iron Man where Pepper comes to get tony and he's in the shower. They exist trust me.

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#138 Posted by Erik (32502 posts) - - Show Bio

@erik:

It's disqusting for a strong female to have casual sex for the fun of it ONCE so far in the entire series so far, your a sexist slut shamming woman hating peice of shit you know that.

You're hurting my feelings.

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#139 Posted by lykopis (10845 posts) - - Show Bio

This is the most amusing thread on CV. For the right reasons.

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#140 Posted by SC (18156 posts) - - Show Bio

@movieartman: Hello. You need to relax and refrain from making personal attacks at your fellow user. You can discuss the points they make, but you can not insult them, especially not the way you have. This is a warning. If you can't post in this thread without resorting to aggressive hostility then might be best to avoid posting in this thread at all.

Moderator
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#142 Edited by JakeN7 (15180 posts) - - Show Bio

@jeepeh said:

@imthedamnbatman: Your best thread I've seen.

Actually, I believe per the rules of the animal kingdom known as the internet forum, (seeing as how I stomped him in our debate, and made him leave his own thread) this thread is MINEnow!!!

MWAHAHAHA!!!
MWAHAHAHA!!!

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#143 Posted by SC (18156 posts) - - Show Bio

In horror movies, when hot female characters are being chased by a killer or monster, there is more time spent for that character on average than male characters, as far as showing the struggle and desperation and so on. For the characters that die. Obviously if we include the usual female protagonist that time would shoot up. This is usually done for certain reasons in that can be both conscious or subconscious, and its not really that its an inherently bad or good thing for either gender, but its a pattern that exists. Now someone could make a point that in such movies men and woman both to tend to be killed, I think guys might on average be killed more but I forget what the study I read noted about that. Still, in the context of lingering out and emphasizing female struggle then painful death stats there are lopsided, most likely intentionally.

So its about context. One famous Avengers artist had a reputation for drawing his favorite female character without underwear, another Elektra artist on their published art book talked about how he drew the character in a way to leave the viewer curious about if she wore any underwear under her sash, a DC writer who declared themselves as a bit of a feminist after their portrayal of a character that provoked controversy a few months later was revealed to and apologized for crude inappropriate sexual remarks and behavior towards a woman in real life. Now going commando isn't a great evil or anything, some writers have joked about Hercules going commando, but how many writers and artists seriously make a point about Daredevil or Superman going commando in outfits which might reveal their sexual organs during battle? So its about context. Over-sexualization of woman in comics? Or under-representation of woman in comics as far as physical body shapes, and those fictional characters attitudes, stances about sex and how they happen to pose? Over-sexualization of woman in comics or under-sexualization of male characters? Physical ideals/ideal physiques aren't the same as sexuality or sexualization. So again its about context.

Many graphic novels/comics have nude woman, woman being sexual, woman having sex, woman having kinky sex, and (for most of those selected examples) its a total non issue that no one complains about, because many graphic novels/comics present such moments organically, present males the same way organically as well and because its not Greg Land drawing Emma Frost and Pixie looking like they are moaning with pleasure when a villain throws a table at them. The reason for being because Greg Land will have unusual sources for images (in theory I can understand, as there are far more references artistically for one than the other) So again context. So its about understanding what over-sexualization means not as a blanket statement but a relative statement. Makes it a lot easier to make sense of.

Moderator
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#144 Edited by MisterAnderson (517 posts) - - Show Bio

@movieartman I wasn't offended or anything; his dinosaurs are better than Steve Bisette's, comparable to Art Adams', and Zombie King most hilarious, underrated romp in comicdom. Liberty Meadows=awesome sauce. BUT! His women are all Frank Frazetta babes for the new millennium, no matter how you dress them up. My comments about J. Scott Campbell were based on his tighter than Fred Phelp's clenched cheeks clothes, not his figures. I agree that their art looks nothing alike. Read for context and have a cookie.

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#145 Edited by ccraft (12437 posts) - - Show Bio

@movieartman: Cavill was ripped sure, but he wasn't buff until he trained for 11 months for the role of Superman. Why would you bring you Gal Gadot is too skinny for WW if she already confirmed she would bulk up? Henry Cavill wasn't buff in Immortals but he had the potential to become buff, just as Gadot has potential to bulk up.

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----------------------------------------------not buff------------------------------------------------------ BUFF--------------------

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#146 Posted by Orician_Seis (542 posts) - - Show Bio

Guys guys guys.... Men and woman are completely different in this department. A shirtless man is not the same a shirtless woman. It is unusual for a woman to get ANY kind of satisfaction/arousal/excitement from a drawn character. For a woman, physical attraction is no where near the same league. So a shirtless Batman or Superman does a lot of nothing for them. Its not real, its generally only men who can find pictures of cartoons/anime/comics any kind of attractive. Look at the movies for Marvel. Yes a shirtless Thor they will ogle at, but that's only because its a real person. Its a fact that men are easier to excite. Doesn't even have to be a real person.

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#147 Posted by Oscars94 (3185 posts) - - Show Bio
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#148 Edited by ImTheDamnBatman (3973 posts) - - Show Bio

@jaken7: You stomped me? You STOMPED me?

Are you serious? Alright, here we f*cking go.

I was in class today, and this thread came to mind. Wanna know why? Right in front of me, in the middle of winter, there was a girl wearing a shirt that was way above her belly button and had gaping holes in the shoulders and back, leaving little to the imagination.

Now, you claim these comics "over sexualize" women, which I believe as well at the begining of this thread. But it since dawned on me that this isn't over sexualization at all, when you consider women dress and act in real life like this as well.

I can give you PLENTY of female charactets that don't dress like sluts, just as you can give me ones that do. Know what that's like? REAL LIFE.

I guess you also want to ban skimpy clothing on actual women, because it makes all women look bad? News flash buddy; People can dress how they want to express themselves. Obviously comic characters aren't real, but how about you stop and consider that the character's WANT to dress that way, just as actual women sometimes do.

"But all women in comics are shown like this blahblahblah"

No they aren't:

Wonder Woman: A strong, confident female lead that is often times more dominant than any male

She-Hulk: Celebrated for both her intelligence and strength, giving her a confident personality

Lois Lane: Again, confident female lead often times portrayed to be superior to any male around her

Barbara Gordon: Super intelligent woman

Big Barda

Hawkgirl

Raven

Ms. Marvel

StarGirl

I could go on.

Now, you can most likely give me examples of "sexualization" with these women, but it's not the norm. For every panel you give me, I can give you two back that shows the opposite. Even if you COULD manage to scrape together enough recent examples, it wouldn't matter anyways, because it happens in real life regardless. While I lived in Hawaii years ago, there was a woman wearing nothing but coveralls. As in held up by suspenders. And she was... Well endowed.

Maybe when you hit college you'll witness more women expressing themselves with what they wear, because if you think women don't sexualize themselves, you're either trolling or live in Northern Alaska.

Oh, and don't insult me again if you want to continue this discussion. I won't be having it.

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#149 Posted by RD189 (3110 posts) - - Show Bio

Well, sex sells.... Honestly, it's not nearly as bad as it was in say, the 80's. If anything I'd say women are now protrayed equal, if not superior to men. For example,

-Lady Death, a universal abstract, one of the most powerful characters ever, a strong woman who is subserviant to no man.

-Janet Pym, ultimate and 616 versions are both very smart, founding avengers, great contributors to their series (both had shitty deaths i know)

-Maria Hill, director of SHIELD for almost a decade....

-Carol Danvers

And if you're worried about how they are drawn, well, as i said, sex sells. And if it's done in a classy way, it enhances the character, for example

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X-23

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#150 Posted by Thewhitecrownofphoenix_stormforever (481 posts) - - Show Bio

@jaken7: You stomped me? You STOMPED me?

Are you serious? Alright, here we f*cking go.

I was in class today, and this thread came to mind. Wanna know why? Right in front of me, in the middle of winter, there was a girl wearing a shirt that was way above her belly button and had gaping holes in the shoulders and back, leaving little to the imagination.

Now, you claim these comics "over sexualize" women, which I believe as well at the begining of this thread. But it since dawned on me that this isn't over sexualization at all, when you consider women dress and act in real life like this as well.

I can give you PLENTY of female charactets that don't dress like sluts, just as you can give me ones that do. Know what that's like? REAL LIFE.

I guess you also want to ban skimpy clothing on actual women, because it makes all women look bad? News flash buddy; People can dress how they want to express themselves. Obviously comic characters aren't real, but how about you stop and consider that the character's WANT to dress that way, just as actual women sometimes do.

"But all women in comics are shown like this blahblahblah"

No they aren't:

Wonder Woman: A strong, confident female lead that is often times more dominant than any male

She-Hulk: Celebrated for both her intelligence and strength, giving her a confident personality

Lois Lane: Again, confident female lead often times portrayed to be superior to any male around her

Barbara Gordon: Super intelligent woman

Big Barda

Hawkgirl

Raven

Ms. Marvel

StarGirl

I could go on.

Now, you can most likely give me examples of "sexualization" with these women, but it's not the norm. For every panel you give me, I can give you two back that shows the opposite. Even if you COULD manage to scrape together enough recent examples, it wouldn't matter anyways, because it happens in real life regardless. While I lived in Hawaii years ago, there was a woman wearing nothing but coveralls. As in held up by suspenders. And she was... Well endowed.

Maybe when you hit college you'll witness more women expressing themselves with what they wear, because if you think women don't sexualize themselves, you're either trolling or live in Northern Alaska.

Oh, and don't insult me again if you want to continue this discussion. I won't be having it.

Thank you for this. I am glad someone said this. You can be sexy and confident. would it help emma frost's charm if she was a 5 ft 5 fat woman? Some looks actually math what they are trying to convey.