One Piece is LS

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Kajin_Style

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Lightspeed One Piece: A Reckoning

This has been a topic of constant debate over the years not just here but anyone where else that has Vs Battles. It is one of the most perplexing topics as well given that majority of fandoms who have LS feats do not deal with this constant debating and downplay. Some examples are:

  • One Punch man
  • Naruto
  • Bleach
  • Dragonball Z
  • Samurai Jack
  • Danny Phantom
  • Afro Samurai
  • Ben 10
  • Jojo's Bizzare Adventure
  • Starwars

God knows how many other series have characters performing relativistic to LS speeds, it is trope by now. Yet none of them get contested as heavily as One Piece for pulling it off. Why is this? I've seen people come up with three main reasons:

1) If they were LS they would've found the One Piece.

2) Kizaru is LS and no one can be faster than him.

3) Pacifista lasers are not real lasers.

As for the first one anyone can debunk it, just apply it to any fandom and you'll see how quickly it falls apart. If Superman is LS, how come crime is still a thing? How come Goku got hit by a laser? It is quick to see how the first argument falls apart. The second one is the one others cling on to the most...

Breaking the LS ceiling

It is bizarre to me for many to think the speed caps at whatever Kizaru displayed when in his very introduction arc he was contested by Rayleigh himself. For Rayleigh to keep up with Kizaru he must be going faster than LS, yes? There's no way Kizaru would go slower just to have fun fighting, it is not his nature and he's got pirates to capture too! We also have several incidents of LS feats within that very arc, most notably the Strawhats barely dodging the laser beams from the Pacifistas. However Kid and Law also faced a Pacifista and have dodged its laser attacks as well. Hell, we haven have Hawkins reacting to a LS kick (remember read right to left):

No Caption Provided
Hell there is even a Youtuber who went through ALL of One Piece's media, including one of the games looking for Lightning and LS feats for One Piece and got 307 examples! Now sure you can exclude the game examples, I certainly would but that would still leave over 200 examples of lightning & light reacting, timing, and dodging feats:

Now I know Toei's animations are bad and also a major factor in people's perception of One Piece characters being slow but regardless of a terrible animation studio, the feats are all there. So let's move on shall we?

Pacifistas shot fake lasers

This reasoning isn't used by many but it has popped up time and time again in vs debates. The very idea one can produce a "fake laser" is literal fiction itself, invented to deny the fiction of a character shooting a laser beam. It is so obnoxious and such a break in logic it is hard to understand why is this even a thing but here we are.

Upon the introduction of the Pacifistas we have X-Drake informing the readers that Vegapunk managed to recreate Kizaru's laser into the Pacifistas:

No Caption Provided

This infamous page, many have denied it because it does not directly state LS speeds for the laser anywhere. Instead it compares the Pacifista's laser to Kizaru's laser. In videos above you will see those machines firing lasers that do explode which mimic the same explosion patterns of Kizaru. Seems the animators also too believed they are exactly like Kizaru's superpower.

Who is X-Drake? He is an undercovered marine informant working for the government as part of a secret organization called SWORD. I say all of this to illustrate that he is a very knowledgeable man doing spy work for the government. So he would be privy to many secretive things in One Piece. Him having knowledge of Vegapunk's research and development is reasonable to assume.Yet despite this some still do not believe the Pacifista laser is LS. So now we have to dive into the man who invented the Pacifistas, Vegapunk.

Throughout the series he is noted as an incredibly scientific genius who is hundreds of years ahead of his time. He has accomplishments such as:

  • Built an entire working lab as a child and young adult
  • Created cyborg animals as child
  • Attempted to install a heating system for an entire island using said animals
  • Teamed up with other scientists like Judge Vinsmoke and discovered the "Linage Factor" aka DNA for One Piece
  • Discovered Seastone (DF users weakness) and developed ways to manufacture them into metal and materials used in weapons, shiphauls, etc.
  • Recreated the Devilfruits themselves as evident by Momo who has eaten one of the fruits he made. So basically, Vegapunk made a fruit that gives you superpowers.
  • Somehow had objects "eat" zoan-type devil fruits to grant them life.
  • Brought back to life dragons as evident on Punk Hazard
  • Invented the infamous Pacifistas
  • Turned Kuma into a cyborg and later it seems a full on android.

On top of that any other notable scientist in the series all strive to out do Vegapunk in someway. We have Caesar who is trying to recreate the devil fruits himself in the form of Smile fruits which do sorta grant DF abilities as we have seen all across the Wano arc. Caesar has also manage to make candy that turn people into giants as he has done with the kids he's been experimenting on, with adverse effects however.

There is also Judge Vinsmoke, mentioned earlier, who took his co-discovery of the Lineage Factor (DNA) and made a literal clone army with it. Not to mention modify his own children, including Sanji, to be super soldiers! Judge also invented the all powerful raid suits that Germa use, including the one that Sanji uses.

Example of clone labs:

No Caption Provided

So back to the Pacifista laser.

With all the accomplishments of Vegapunk and achievements of lesser scientists from One Piece, it is incredibly difficult to deny Vegapunk's ability to recreate a laser beam that explodes. It can't be an outlier feat given everything else he's done. It also sound silly even thinking that he can't anyway. Many scientists across various sci-fi universes have accomplished the laser thing. So why can't Vegapunk?

Any person denying this is telling us a harder to believe story than Vegapunk just doing the thing!

Lasers don't explode, therefore fake

Pushing aside the notion that someone is denying fiction for doing fiction and trying to understand that leap in logic; let's address this statement too.

Lasers do not, infact explode. Congrats! We have established fact as fact and agree on fact being fact. A very difficult thing given current times! However, as fiction writers like to do, we have characters breaking the laws of physics and logic here by inventing a laserbeam that....explodes!

Not many have argue against exploding lasers cause they are cool and used constantly across all of fiction, suspension of belief is part of the fun of enjoying any series. So exploding lasers is not a new concept that One Piece introduced, however we can't also just flat out say they aren't LS either since Kizaru himself did the exploding laser thing and his super-power is Light, he's the literal embodiment of light.

Early on in the series, we've been informed people can train and improved their DF abilities:

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

It is pretty easy to envision Kizaru starting out simple laser light (think laser pointers for cats) and him training it up into the exploding death beam it is today. Then once he had achieve that and showed the Navy what he can do, he must've at some point met up with Vegapunk and explained his logic on how he turned a laser pointer DF power into a beam of doom. From there, you can see how Vegapunk himself recreated it in a machine and brought to life the Pacifistas.

But no one can be faster than Kizaru! He caps at Lightspeed!

It is weird to me that many think Kizaru caps at LS when his DF ability is Light. As mentioned above, people can train their DF powers and improved them to be something greater. We see Crocodile gain a new ability from his sand fruit, in that he can drain the moisture of everything. We see Doflamingo be able to control people's bodies with just a tiny piece of string. Then there's the whole awakening topic that many have illustrated: Impel Down zoans, Doffy, Cracker, Katakuri, Law and Kidd.

With so many characters improving themselves and the introduction of Haki being another weakness for DF users and worse for logia types like Kizaru. Why would many assume that Kizaru doesn't train and improve himself like the rest? That he doesn't have Haki either. It is silly to think that at this point in the series.

Many claim LS is his top speed, but I'd argue it is his slowest speed. His battle with Rayleigh says plenty that he can go faster, that others have gone faster, so why should he, who is claimed to be the fastest, be slower than Light? We believe Flash to be millions of times faster than LS, we believe Superman to be near that, but we can't believe a man who has the literal superpower of Light to not break his own LS barrier??

It would also make sense from a writing perspective, to give Kizaru the Flash effect, of his entire world moving so slow from his perspective that he has to slow down just for others to keep up with him. It would explain why he has such a lax behavior.

In Closing...

This is a shonen manga series. Doing insane feats is part of business and accepting the things we see in those manga pages as fact is what everyone does-- except for One Piece. It is time it stops and One Piece gets the accomplishments and credits it deserves.

Also this isn't just something that should be happening here. It is already happening in other places such as the Vsbattle wiki community. They too are going to be revising everything they have for One Piece but are waiting for Wano to finish before they start, given all the crazy feats being illustrated almost every week. You can read about that here if you are curious:

https://vsbattles.com/threads/prohibiting-the-silencing-of-ftl-one-piece.123707/

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Kajin_Style

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Now I know there is a comparison/feat pinned thread somewhere but this topic is likely to spark a ton of discussion and might clog that thread up. So I decided to post it here as well and hope is ok with the mods. :)

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Mortein

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I think is by far the best feat for OP characters being LS

No Caption Provided

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shirso

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I mean I don't think even the biggest skeptics deny at least rel-LS current Luffy at this point.

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InfiniteMass

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But no one can be faster than Kizaru! He caps at Lightspeed!

It is weird to me that many think Kizaru caps at LS when his DF ability is Light. As mentioned above, people can train their DF powers and improved them to be something greater. We see Crocodile gain a new ability from his sand fruit, in that he can drain the moisture of everything. We see Doflamingo be able to control people's bodies with just a tiny piece of string. Then there's the whole awakening topic that many have illustrated: Impel Down zoans, Doffy, Cracker, Katakuri, Law and Kidd.

With so many characters improving themselves and the introduction of Haki being another weakness for DF users and worse for logia types like Kizaru. Why would many assume that Kizaru doesn't train and improve himself like the rest? That he doesn't have Haki either. It is silly to think that at this point in the series.

Many claim LS is his top speed, but I'd argue it is his slowest speed. His battle with Rayleigh says plenty that he can go faster, that others have gone faster, so why should he, who is claimed to be the fastest, be slower than Light? We believe Flash to be millions of times faster than LS, we believe Superman to be near that, but we can't believe a man who has the literal superpower of Light to not break his own LS barrier??

It would also make sense from a writing perspective, to give Kizaru the Flash effect, of his entire world moving so slow from his perspective that he has to slow down just for others to keep up with him. It would explain why he has such a lax behavior.

This is my biggest problem with your post, unless Kizaru shows himself being faster than light itself, there is no reason to believe that he can move faster than light. Other people "keeping up" with him isn't proof that he's faster than light unless those people themselves have light speed feats. The reason people have a problem with LS luffy is because of exactly this, sure you can scale others to Kizaru, but since he is the fastest, he has no one to scale too at all, and we have NO proof he is moving faster than light. We can all accept that he is light speed because his DF is light, even though that can be argued too, lets just say we all agree with this. He needs proof of overcoming his speed and getting "faster", you make the argument that Flash and Superman are FTL so a guy who is literal light must be too? But that isn't how it works, both of those characters have feats of them actually being faster than light. The same cannot be said for Kizaru or any other OP character, those "200" examples of dodging light are reaches at best, relying heavily on the name of the attack to assume those attacks are anywhere near light speed or even lightning speed.

Pacifistas shot fake lasers

This reasoning isn't used by many but it has popped up time and time again in vs debates. The very idea one can produce a "fake laser" is literal fiction itself, invented to deny the fiction of a character shooting a laser beam. It is so obnoxious and such a break in logic it is hard to understand why is this even a thing but here we are.

Upon the introduction of the Pacifistas we have X-Drake informing the readers that Vegapunk managed to recreate Kizaru's laser into the Pacifistas:

No Caption Provided

This infamous page, many have denied it because it does not directly state LS speeds for the laser anywhere. Instead it compares the Pacifista's laser to Kizaru's laser. In videos above you will see those machines firing lasers that do explode which mimic the same explosion patterns of Kizaru. Seems the animators also too believed they are exactly like Kizaru's superpower.

Who is X-Drake? He is an undercovered marine informant working for the government as part of a secret organization called SWORD. I say all of this to illustrate that he is a very knowledgeable man doing spy work for the government. So he would be privy to many secretive things in One Piece. Him having knowledge of Vegapunk's research and development is reasonable to assume.Yet despite this some still do not believe the Pacifista laser is LS. So now we have to dive into the man who invented the Pacifistas, Vegapunk.

Throughout the series he is noted as an incredibly scientific genius who is hundreds of years ahead of his time. He has accomplishments such as:

  • Built an entire working lab as a child and young adult
  • Created cyborg animals as child
  • Attempted to install a heating system for an entire island using said animals
  • Teamed up with other scientists like Judge Vinsmoke and discovered the "Linage Factor" aka DNA for One Piece
  • Discovered Seastone (DF users weakness) and developed ways to manufacture them into metal and materials used in weapons, shiphauls, etc.
  • Recreated the Devilfruits themselves as evident by Momo who has eaten one of the fruits he made. So basically, Vegapunk made a fruit that gives you superpowers.
  • Somehow had objects "eat" zoan-type devil fruits to grant them life.
  • Brought back to life dragons as evident on Punk Hazard
  • Invented the infamous Pacifistas
  • Turned Kuma into a cyborg and later it seems a full on android.

On top of that any other notable scientist in the series all strive to out do Vegapunk in someway. We have Caesar who is trying to recreate the devil fruits himself in the form of Smile fruits which do sorta grant DF abilities as we have seen all across the Wano arc. Caesar has also manage to make candy that turn people into giants as he has done with the kids he's been experimenting on, with adverse effects however.

There is also Judge Vinsmoke, mentioned earlier, who took his co-discovery of the Lineage Factor (DNA) and made a literal clone army with it. Not to mention modify his own children, including Sanji, to be super soldiers! Judge also invented the all powerful raid suits that Germa use, including the one that Sanji uses.

Example of clone labs:

No Caption Provided

So back to the Pacifista laser.

With all the accomplishments of Vegapunk and achievements of lesser scientists from One Piece, it is incredibly difficult to deny Vegapunk's ability to recreate a laser beam that explodes. It can't be an outlier feat given everything else he's done. It also sound silly even thinking that he can't anyway. Many scientists across various sci-fi universes have accomplished the laser thing. So why can't Vegapunk?

Any person denying this is telling us a harder to believe story than Vegapunk just doing the thing!

The next issue, Pacifistas Lasers are slower than Kizaru, so why are they even scaled to his speed, when Kizaru is still leagues faster than anyone and Luffy dodged those beams with no issue? We have on screen feats that suggest those beams are not light speed at all (Moving slower than Kizaru), but you want to scale them to actual lasers because? Just because it's called a laser doesn't mean it's light speed, and let me us an example to explain why that is the case.

Say a character has an attack called Big Bang, do we automatically assume it has the strength of a big bang?

I know these are lasers and are supposed to "mimic" their real life counterpoints, but unless those lasers have feats for actually being light speed, you cannot assume they are, especially when they show other wise.

You can't apply real world physics to something that doesn't follow those physics to begin with. There are laser attacks in cartoons and Animes that move faster than the speed of light, so clearly each laser in each universe have their own properties unless explicitly stated otherwise.

You can't have it both ways, either the Laser follows the laws of the real world or it doesn't, you can't have the benefits of it's real life speed while also ignoring it's flaws.

As for the first one anyone can debunk it, just apply it to any fandom and you'll see how quickly it falls apart. If Superman is LS, how come crime is still a thing? How come Goku got hit by a laser? It is quick to see how the first argument falls apart. The second one is the one others cling on to the most...

This I actually agree with a lot, when people bring up these points they are doing nothing but trying to low ball. You shouldn't assume every character is moving or capable of constant light speed movement, the only character I know capable of that is the Flash and he still has some hilarious low showings while at "FTL" movement.

If OP is light speed, there is no reason to believe they will be constantly at LS or FTL speeds since it doesn't make much sense for the sake of plot.

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TakenStew22

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Goku still solos.

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UstanLeengard

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Luffy and other OP high tiers having rel-ls reactions is pretty obvious at this point. My only problem is when people start saying everyone and their mother is ftl. Mainly because from a narrative standpoint it wouldn't make much sense. Kizaru is considered very strong in the verse and much of his strength is attributed to the speed that he can move at. While others can react to him with observation haki, they don't have the same movement speed or attack speed (with the lasers) as him. I've even seen people claim that Kizaru himself is ftl without using his fruit for movement (so thing's like his sword swing). Why would he use his fruit power to kick at light speed, if he could attack faster than light without it? Him and other characters being ftl would just make his fruit seem pointless especially since the speed is the most emphasized thing about it.

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OrangeCrush81

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#8  Edited By OrangeCrush81

This long elaborate post wasn't really needed.

Many users on CV consider the current meta in One Piece to be FTL by quite a bit. For combat and reaction that is.

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LameLiarLeo

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#9  Edited By LameLiarLeo

pretty much everyone should Agree

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ragegod

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#10  Edited By ragegod

Nah. Sound waves>>> current Supernova.

I'll buy LS OP towards the end where Oda can't contradict himself anymore. Plus Kizaru is being reserved for end game anyway, speaks volumes really.

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deyyy

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Paxa

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Yeah no

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HaremPolice

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Really… some people here hate One Piece so there obviously going to say no….

The high and god tiers clearly have Rel+ to LS and some people like Kaido and Luffy are FTL…

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Morningstar999

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Subsonic apparently.

FTL comfortably.

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NinjaRizer

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When Kizaru arrives and fights, everything will be made perfectly clear.

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ragegod

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Check your roouutuuee

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Kalebsmarty156

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LS sound waves gg

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Antebellum

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#18  Edited By Antebellum

Naah, Appo knocked out Luffy with Transonic blasts, which makes him comparable to Yonkos, close to Pirate King lvl.

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OrangeCrush81

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Appo's attack is area of effect move. Not really an anti-feat honestly.

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ragegod

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OrangeCrush81

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#21  Edited By OrangeCrush81

@ragegod: So do you do think less then speed of sound One Piece is consistent at all?

I hope you know speed of sound is abysmally slow compared to even lightning.

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LucasCosta

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For now Kizaru is the only character xonfirmed to be Lightning.

When i see someone blitzing him i will be convinced.

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LucasCosta

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Really… some people here hate One Piece so there obviously going to say no….

The high and god tiers clearly have Rel+ to LS and some people like Kaido and Luffy are FTL…

So you saying "Luffy is Faster than Kizaru, period"?

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HaremPolice

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#24  Edited By HaremPolice
@lucascosta said:
@harempolice said:

Really… some people here hate One Piece so there obviously going to say no….

The high and god tiers clearly have Rel+ to LS and some people like Kaido and Luffy are FTL…

So you saying "Luffy is Faster than Kizaru, period"?

Are you using Kizaru as a way lowball Luffy and Kaido’s speed?

If Kaido can Blitz Luffy who was using advanced CoO…

No Caption Provided

And good CoO can spot him, so what? Who cares if Kizaru is made of light or as fast as it? That does mean anyone can’t surpass his speed like Luffy and Kaido did…

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InfiniteGear

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One piece is pretty easily ftl yeah.

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Kajin_Style

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@infinitemass:

This is my biggest problem with your post, unless Kizaru shows himself being faster than light itself, there is no reason to believe that he can move faster than light. Other people "keeping up" with him isn't proof that he's faster than light unless those people themselves have light speed feats. The reason people have a problem with LS luffy is because of exactly this, sure you can scale others to Kizaru, but since he is the fastest, he has no one to scale too at all, and we have NO proof he is moving faster than light. We can all accept that he is light speed because his DF is light, even though that can be argued too, lets just say we all agree with this. He needs proof of overcoming his speed and getting "faster", you make the argument that Flash and Superman are FTL so a guy who is literal light must be too? But that isn't how it works, both of those characters have feats of them actually being faster than light. The same cannot be said for Kizaru or any other OP character, those "200" examples of dodging light are reaches at best, relying heavily on the name of the attack to assume those attacks are anywhere near light speed or even lightning speed.

Why would Kizaru ever fire a beam slower than himself? This is basically the evidence you are asking for. Unless you prefer some character statement like "This beam goes 100x the speed of light!" Yet that too would quickly come into question like Don Chinjao's claim to split a continent. If no one believes One Piece to be LS before that moment, they'll be flabbergasted when Kizaru utters such a statement. The existence of a single character and his power should not severely limit an entire series.

Kizaru ate a DF, it gave him the power of light. By default, at its basest levels he is LS. I'm sure that made him incredibly powerful early in life, but he quickly would've learned he needs to train his power as others who can go faster, can predict his movements showed up and knocked him down. Those who don't train their DF powers get smacked around and locked in a barrel like Caribou.

Also this idea implies that Kizaru became the fastest and became an admiral without any real training or challenges. That he didn't do things like learn haki or awaken his DF ability. That he just ate his fruit and became an instant baller, like Enel. It just doesn't work like that, the story has shown us so much about Haki that lots of hard work is required to obtain these titles like Admiral or Yonko.

To assume Kizaru caps at LS when his DF starts his speed at LS, is to assume he doesn't ever train and never even tried to go faster.

The next issue, Pacifistas Lasers are slower than Kizaru, so why are they even scaled to his speed, when Kizaru is still leagues faster than anyone and Luffy dodged those beams with no issue? We have on screen feats that suggest those beams are not light speed at all (Moving slower than Kizaru), but you want to scale them to actual lasers because? Just because it's called a laser doesn't mean it's light speed, and let me us an example to explain why that is the case.

The lasers are scaled to his DF power, not his speed. Kizaru is faster than light and his cheapest, weakest attack is a laser so strong it explodes on contact. Think Frieza but in yellow.

Say a character has an attack called Big Bang, do we automatically assume it has the strength of a big bang?

I know these are lasers and are supposed to "mimic" their real life counterpoints, but unless those lasers have feats for actually being light speed, you cannot assume they are, especially when they show other wise.

Yes Hyperbole exists in fiction. That's why Don Chinjao's feat can be written off as hyperbole.

You can't apply real world physics to something that doesn't follow those physics to begin with. There are laser attacks in cartoons and Animes that move faster than the speed of light, so clearly each laser in each universe have their own properties unless explicitly stated otherwise.

It is funny you state this, but also put a speed limit to characters including one like Kizaru who would have the most logical reasons for going faster than light. If anyone can find a way to go faster, it would be the guy who can become it.

You can't apply real world physics to something that doesn't follow those physics to begin with. There are laser attacks in cartoons and Animes that move faster than the speed of light, so clearly each laser in each universe have their own properties unless explicitly stated otherwise.

You can't have it both ways, either the Laser follows the laws of the real world or it doesn't, you can't have the benefits of it's real life speed while also ignoring it's flaws.

You are ignoring that this is fiction and a writer can do that if they so wish. Furthermore, we do have confirmation that Pacifista Laser is made to replicate Kizaru's laser which is a light beam base attack. I do not see how one can stray off that logical line of thinking. You need to bring the evidence the lasers are slower than light.

Otherwise because we have an informed character stating it (X-Drake), constant lore drops of Vegapunk's achievements, a person with powers of Light, and a constant build up of Strawhat speed feats (Skypiea, CP9 and ThrillerBark). So achieving LS dodging feats is reasonable.

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Kajin_Style

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Naah, Appo knocked out Luffy with Transonic blasts, which makes him comparable to Yonkos, close to Pirate King lvl.

Who knew transonic blasts can explode like a bomb, from the inside...! You are also ignoring the neg durability feat that Appo is displaying here. Also Killer already explained that anyone who hears his music, can't avoid any of his attacks.

The attacks don't travel from Appo to them at the speeds of sound waves. Anyone who hears his music is already under his powers influence. Think of it like Law's room, his music fills all the space that air does. Once you hear a musical note he can do whatever he wants to you, in an instant.

That's how it works.

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WizardKing

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#28  Edited By WizardKing

One Piece characters have had light-speed reaction speed since Saboady Archipelago. Even pre-time skip Zoro dodged a beam from a Pacifista, which is a light-speed feat, and this is consistent as post-time skip base Luffy also dodged a beam from a Pacifista and called it slow.

As for physical speed, Kizaru is literally made of light, so there is that.

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InfiniteMass

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@kajin_style:

Why would Kizaru ever fire a beam slower than himself? This is basically the evidence you are asking for.

There are a lot of reasons he could fire a beam slower than himself, maybe it has more power, maybe its more precise. That isn't the point, a boxer can thrower a slower punch than his max but can never except the speed of his max.

Unless you prefer some character statement like "This beam goes 100x the speed of light!" Yet that too would quickly come into question like Don Chinjao's claim to split a continent. If no one believes One Piece to be LS before that moment, they'll be flabbergasted when Kizaru utters such a statement. The existence of a single character and his power should not severely limit an entire series.

It doesn't need to be explicitly stated, if he managed to out pace a person who is LS or was able to do something like move faster than light, that would be more than enough proof. Statements are one thing, the feat is the actual action that we look at, anyone can say they can split a continent, but if he actually did it, then that's a whole other issue.

Kizaru ate a DF, it gave him the power of light. By default, at its basest levels he is LS.

By Default he can move at LS, at no point is that speed stated to be his default. He could literally move slower than light speed if he wanted too, but moving faster requires confirmation that this is the case.

I'm sure that made him incredibly powerful early in life, but he quickly would've learned he needs to train his power as others who can go faster, can predict his movements showed up and knocked him down. Those who don't train their DF powers get smacked around and locked in a barrel like Caribou.

Is there proof of him training his DF?

Regardless him training and getting stronger doesn't automatically give him a boost in speed, that is nothing more than an assumption. He could get physically stronger, and maybe learn new attacks, but there is zero information on him training or getting "faster". That's a baseless assumption on your part, with that same line of reasoning you could say anyone could be FTL at that point because they must have trained to be better.

Also this idea implies that Kizaru became the fastest and became an admiral without any real training or challenges. That he didn't do things like learn haki or awaken his DF ability. That he just ate his fruit and became an instant baller, like Enel. It just doesn't work like that, the story has shown us so much about Haki that lots of hard work is required to obtain these titles like Admiral or Yonko.

It doesn't imply anything, you are the only one implying he is getting faster with his training. Like I said, he could have gotten stronger, and became better with his attacks and learn new attacks. But there is no information regarding his speed, anything regarding his speed is a baseless assumption on your part. You need to prove he got faster, the burden of proof is on you since you are making the claim. Regardless of how the story works for others, unless there is explicit proof of his training and him getting "faster", you cannot assume he got faster with no proof.

To assume Kizaru caps at LS when his DF starts his speed at LS, is to assume he doesn't ever train and never even tried to go faster.

No, there is no proof his DF starts him at light speed, even if he is light itself. The reason lies behind your own logic, you assume he can be LS because he is light. Yet you also assume he can go faster with no proof, yet your logic dictates he shares real life properties with light. By that exact assumption, he shouldn't be able to get faster at all, because you are using real life attributes for his speed, you must also assume those real life attributes for his disadvantages, UNLESS STATED OTHERWISE.(Big point here so you don't miss it)

The lasers are scaled to his DF power, not his speed. Kizaru is faster than light and his cheapest, weakest attack is a laser so strong it explodes on contact. Think Frieza but in yellow.

You scale his lasers to his DF power, but nothing about it suggests it's light speed, that is a basic assumption on your part with no proof of it being his speed. Kizaru being faster than light needs proof, you don't need proof that he can go slower, that's backwards logic.

Yes Hyperbole exists in fiction. That's why Don Chinjao's feat can be written off as hyperbole.

Yeah, that's the point, you can't take hyperbole and attribute it to a power without proof, and there is none.

It is funny you state this, but also put a speed limit to characters including one like Kizaru who would have the most logical reasons for going faster than light. If anyone can find a way to go faster, it would be the guy who can become it.

Clearly you don't understand the point I am making, you are using the real life properties of something, and then stating said person can overcome those real life properties. Unless stated otherwise this cannot be the case, you can have your cake and eat it too.

Either the DF for light shares the same properties as actual light, and thus cannot be FTL, or it doesn't share the same properties as light and can be FTL but needs actual FTL feats.

That's what is means to have the burden of proof.

You are ignoring that this is fiction and a writer can do that if they so wish.

But the writer never stated any of this, this is based purely on your own assumptions. If the writer stated Kizaru to be FTL, there would be no argument. But he never stated it and has never shown reasonable reason for him to be FTL, you are doing nothing more than assuming at this point.

Furthermore, we do have confirmation that Pacifista Laser is made to replicate Kizaru's laser which is a light beam base attack.

Replication doesn't mean it copies 100%, you yourself state that the laser is slower than Kizaru, but there is no information that Kizaru is FTL to begin with. The "light beam attack" can be slower than light, but needs proof of it being faster. You can try to make the argument that it goes at light speed, but there is no proof for this either unless you are giving the attack the real life properties of light, in which case it shares very little.

I do not see how one can stray off that logical line of thinking. You need to bring the evidence the lasers are slower than light.

This is why your entire logic of reasoning is faulty, you are expecting others to prove a negative, that is a fallacy. It is for you to prove he can move faster than light, the entire argument is based on your evidence and feats, I don't have to do anything but analyze that evidence because I am not making the Claim that Kizaru is FTL.

Unless there is a feat where he performs something at FTL or our paces a person who is FTL, then there is no reason to assume he is FTL.

The biggest issue with your argument, is that you are basing these people to be FTL off of Kizaru's ability, and then using those same people to scale Kizaru to FTL. That's a faulty line of reasoning unless it is explicitly stated he is faster than light, or faster than himself previously at top speed.

Otherwise because we have an informed character stating it (X-Drake)

No where in your post did anyone state he or their attacks where FTL or even light speed. Being based on light doesn't automatically mean LS, otherwise, like I said already, you would have to attribute the other properties of light to it, unless stated by the writer. And it was never stated by the writer.

constant lore drops of Vegapunk's achievements, a person with powers of Light, and a constant build up of Strawhat speed feats (Skypiea, CP9 and ThrillerBark).

Which are all based off of your assumptions, we need feats and actual statements about speed, not your baseless claims that lack actual evidence(Feats).

So achieving LS dodging feats is reasonable.

It's just a reasonable to say they never did.

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LucasCosta

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@lucascosta said:
@harempolice said:

Really… some people here hate One Piece so there obviously going to say no….

The high and god tiers clearly have Rel+ to LS and some people like Kaido and Luffy are FTL…

So you saying "Luffy is Faster than Kizaru, period"?

Are you using Kizaru as a way lowball Luffy and Kaido’s speed?

If Kaido can Blitz Luffy who was using advanced CoO…

No Caption Provided

And good CoO can spot him, so what? Who cares if Kizaru is made of light or as fast as it? That does mean anyone can’t surpass his speed like Luffy and Kaido did…

Yes, Kizaru is faster than Kaido and Luffy, until it is proved otherwise.

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Antebellum

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#31  Edited By Antebellum
@kajin_style said:
@antebellum said:

Naah, Appo knocked out Luffy with Transonic blasts, which makes him comparable to Yonkos, close to Pirate King lvl.

Who knew transonic blasts can explode like a bomb, from the inside...! You are also ignoring the neg durability feat that Appo is displaying here. Also Killer already explained that anyone who hears his music, can't avoid any of his attacks.

The attacks don't travel from Appo to them at the speeds of sound waves. Anyone who hears his music is already under his powers influence. Think of it like Law's room, his music fills all the space that air does. Once you hear a musical note he can do whatever he wants to you, in an instant.

That's how it works.

I was joking, haha. I saw killer explaining.

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FortyTwoZero

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Was it ever stated anywhere that Kizaru is the fastest in OP? Rayleigh, Kuma and Marco seem to keep up with him just fine and they aren't at the peak of the verse

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Kizaru is actually still yet to blitz any top/god tiers and has failed in doing so both in canon and non-canon One piece so any notion of him being the fastest in the verse has no backing. Moreover, I can't imagine him coming back to blitz or outspeed Luffy(who is currently matching the best of the verse) like most people say he will.

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Eazy_Pezy

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"Your target needs to hear you"

On top of the fact that Drake literally dodges his attack with this knowledge:

No Caption Provided

Maybe Drake is faster than sub sonic Luffy and Zoro🤔

This is for those who think the trolling going on in this thread might be legit.

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Wushu59

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#35  Edited By Wushu59

@harempolice:

Simple question.

What takes more presidence over the other?

Outdated guidebook statements which came out during pre-time skip or new feats + newer guidebook and manga statements?

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Jieldre

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This is not needed in 2021.

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AreneaCaulem

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IMO they're Rel+ - LS with FTL reaction. I think they're catching up to FTL or already there, not really caught up.

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Kajin_Style

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@jieldre said:

This is not needed in 2021.

Trust me it is needed. Just go check out the vs battles involving Luffy. I hear it plenty of times that he isn't FTL.

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Jieldre

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@jieldre said:

This is not needed in 2021.

Trust me it is needed. Just go check out the vs battles involving Luffy. I hear it plenty of times that he isn't FTL.

Yeahh FTL may be going a little too far. We just need more solid feats to properly substantiate that.

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Kajin_Style

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Was it ever stated anywhere that Kizaru is the fastest in OP? Rayleigh, Kuma and Marco seem to keep up with him just fine and they aren't at the peak of the verse

Not that I know of but would have to dig around to see if there was ever such a statement anywhere. Even if there was, it wouldn't say something like "Kizaru's top speed is light and he is the fastest." It would just say he is the fastest.

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Kajin_Style

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@jieldre said:
@kajin_style said:
@jieldre said:

This is not needed in 2021.

Trust me it is needed. Just go check out the vs battles involving Luffy. I hear it plenty of times that he isn't FTL.

Yeahh FTL may be going a little too far. We just need more solid feats to properly substantiate that.

Uhh.. first 3 posts above show plenty. Then you can scale from there post time skip.

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ragegod

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@eazy_pezy: No one is trolling and that piece of info means nothing. If you posted Drake actually moving fast enough to attack Apoo before he heard anything then you'd have a debunk there. But that's not the case. He's just evading the attack after the sound waves had already reached him, which are explicitly stated to follow his line of sight. Simple. OP ain't light speed or FTL until the end because Oda too inconsistent. Big Mom literally rained down lightning bolts on supernova and Kid called it a natural disaster. Why would you have a problem dodging natural lightning buddy lool

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Seb178

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Only kizaru is LS and no one is FTL in OP

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zorosavage22

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@seb178: dude stop it Luffy and kaido are ftl stop downplaying them

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Seb178

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ragegod

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#46  Edited By ragegod
No Caption Provided

No Caption Provided

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LucasCosta

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@ragegod: I love this joke about dinossaurs doing the weirdest things.

Where did Oda studied about this?

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Olorun

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No

/thread

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DemarG

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luffy via blitz