Offensive costumes?

Why do so many women seem to take offense to the costumes of many (most?) female comic characters?

(Before I continue I'd like to point out that I am female and don't really have an issue with T&A in general, as long as it's used with some modicum of taste. Basically, I don't really care whether characters (female or male or whatever) prance around wearing essentially nothing as long as it's not the focus of the story in question- I'm not interested in the fanservice, but at the same time it doesn't really bother me much. Maybe I read too much crappy manga growing up, who knows, it's not important. Either way, I sure as hell don't mind being exposed to T&A if it helps fuel the comic industry. A decent amount of it is pretty easy to avoid by simply not reading titles that center around fanservice. )

What I have trouble understanding is why women get so upset about scantily-clad fictional characters. I've heard the whole 'it's not how a strong, empowered woman would dress' thing and I don't agree- a strong, empowered woman wears whatever the hell she wants to, because she's strong and empowered. Are women really that enraged by two-dimensional depictions of their gender being shown in various states of (un)dress? Does the female body really disgust them that much? And yes, sexualized female characters exist in comics- is an empowered, strong woman not allowed to be a sexual being?

If it's an equality issue, I'd like to think my point still stands. Why shouldn't a character- male or female- be able to dress any way they damn well want to?

And personally I don't believe that exploitation is a fair accusation in this case. They're illustrations. How does illustrating an issue of Vampirella involve exploitation? Yes, I understand that the typical Vampirella reader is interested in the series for (likely) sexual reasons, but how does that change anything?

Ultimately, I don't believe that people who don't read comics have a right to pass judgement on them. And a strangely high percentage of people who complain about revealing costumes and (either supposed or legitimate) overly-sexualized characters don't actually read comics at all. I mean, I suppose most of them will read a few issues or so, but they don't reallyread them; they'll either flip through while paying little to no attention to the writing (focusing instead on the illustrations) or only really pay attention to aspects of the story that support their preconceived notions.

So I ask you fellow, members of comicvine, am I missing something? I'd appreciate any help you can offer on understanding this issue.

I'm fine with wonder woman and Supergirl but Starfire is redicullas. There's definitely a limit of how much skin is to much.

@AllStarSuperman: I agree that it's not strictly necessary and is kind of over the top, but I don't exactly see how it's offensive.

@Squares said:

What I have trouble understanding is why women get so upset about scantily-clad fictional characters. I've heard the whole 'it's not how a strong, empowered woman would dress' thing and I don't agree- a strong, empowered woman wears whatever the hell she wants to, because she's strong and empowered.

This

@AllStarSuperman said:

I'm fine with wonder woman and Supergirl but Starfire is redicullas. There's definitely a limit of how much skin is to much.

Out of curiosity, have you read Red Hood and the Outlaws?

@Squares: I'm going to try to sit this one out for the most part, only because I'm becoming a little tired of these sorts of arguments, though I think they have the potential to bring up useful things and it's a shame that a recent thread which dealt with the topic was deleted. I will say two relevant things: 1. posturing is a particularly important part of why people get offended about portrayal, so the outrage may not be entirely due to the costumes and 2. there are definitely people with huge complaints who read quite a few more comics than I do, and have been for years. I'm sure you'll be hearing from them soon.

@Squares: its not so offensive I just thinks its weird to read a book with Starfire around people its kinda perverted. And your family would be weirded out.

@akbogert: i have read the first eight issues. Its awesome and made me like Jason Todd but the only thing I didn't like was starfires clotheing and portrayal.

@AllStarSuperman: See, if you'd said "clothing" I might have understood, but I thought her portrayal was fine. I also think you stopped at pretty much the worst possible moment, because the major arc that followed fleshed out her history, made her freaking awesome, and gave her body armor. But at least you've formed your opinion after having read it, because a lot of folks heard all the complaints, saw a couple pictures from the first issue, and then just dismissed her outright. As RHatO has been one of my favorite New 52 books in part because of Starfire, I always want to make sure she's not being complained about out of ignorance ^_^

It doesn't bother me at all but I would at least want it to look good. Take Vamperella for instance. The costume just looks plain dumb.

@Dernman: Agreed!

@akbogert said:

@AllStarSuperman said:

I'm fine with wonder woman and Supergirl but Starfire is redicullas. There's definitely a limit of how much skin is to much.

Out of curiosity, have you read Red Hood and the Outlaws?

@Squares: I'm going to try to sit this one out for the most part, only because I'm becoming a little tired of these sorts of arguments, though I think they have the potential to bring up useful things and it's a shame that a recent thread which dealt with the topic was deleted. I will say two relevant things: 1. posturing is a particularly important part of why people get offended about portrayal, so the outrage may not be entirely due to the costumes and 2. there are definitely people with huge complaints who read quite a few more comics than I do, and have been for years. I'm sure you'll be hearing from them soon.

I look forward to hearing from them.

Okay, think of a character you really like for a lot of reasons. Reasons like maybe they are sassy, intelligent, witty, serious, strong, deep, can fly through robots, and knock out elephants with their head. Then take a comic writer who only wants to have a successful comic as far as they are concerned and make a lot of money. Then have them diminish what you like about a character and instead emphasis on the characters 2 dimensional hotness and sexy sexiness and badass sexiness, and makes sure the artist draws them with a great ass, hopefully with the outline of their sex organs visible through their outfit that is assuming its not an ass shot where you can just show the damn thing woo! See sex sells and comics always has and always will have male customers as its main audience so its just business. Plus its empowering because the writer and fictional character say so. Uhm...

Personally I am not offended, but I am critical of comics like I am of everything and my reasoning does tend to line up with a lot of people who are offended costume wise, but I find a lot of people aren't so good at arguing their points so well. Taste like context can often be subjective. I don't mind Emma Frosts outfit when Mike Choi draws her, then again when Greg Land draws that same character and costume, then I get critical. So if I imagine that Greg Land only drew that character and outfit - well its easy to generalize why its a costume thing or a character thing or a writer or a artist thing when really it could be a number of things that are variable in effect, as far as causing or not causing offense.

I mean characters sure so if you have a writer who sincerely thinks that its in your characters personality to dress up in a white hood with a pointed white hood because why the hell not, why can't they dress anyway they want to? Eh... well it depends. When Emma wears something sexy its Emma being Emma, when Pixie does it, well its probably motivated by some plot aspect, its not something she takes as casually as Emma. When Xavier is wearing something sexy chances are he was woken up that way after Callisto dressed him. Even though Xavier can wear whatever he wants, its not in his nature for many characters that he wears a studded collar with leather pants and if a writer started making that his regular outfit I wouldn't blame people for cynically thinking that Marvel was trying to cash in by trying to appear to those sexually attracted to elderly bald men with a taste for leather whips and studded boots, collars etc Not that if the demand isn't there they shouldn't release a Professor X: Time For Discipline Worm, Mini series, but it might be a bit offensive, frustrating for fans of Xavier and or X-Men who just want a book with Professor X who acts a bit more in character with what they are used to (like quietly lusting after Jean Grey and thinking up ways to kill the X-Men)

@akbogert said:

@AllStarSuperman: See, if you'd said "clothing" I might have understood, but I thought her portrayal was fine. I also think you stopped at pretty much the worst possible moment, because the major arc that followed fleshed out her history, made her freaking awesome, and gave her body armor. But at least you've formed your opinion after having read it, because a lot of folks heard all the complaints, saw a couple pictures from the first issue, and then just dismissed her outright. As RHatO has been one of my favorite New 52 books in part because of Starfire, I always want to make sure she's not being complained about out of ignorance ^_^

By portrayal I meant sex. Cause she's slept with night wing and arsenal. Did she sleep with jason? I read them off YouTube and its only up to issue eight.

@Dernman said:

It doesn't bother me at all but I would at least want it to look good. Take Vamperella for instance. The costume just looks plain dumb.

Vampirella doesn't really wear the red costume in the books anymore though....for the most part that costume is only used on the covers....she mostly wears fairly normal clothes

@SC: Ah, yes, the character destroying aspects of blatant fanservice in comics. I find X-men comics are really bad for that kind of thing. Fun fact- it's also one of the many reasons I am unable to respect Psylocke.

@AllStarSuperman said:

@akbogert said:

@AllStarSuperman: See, if you'd said "clothing" I might have understood, but I thought her portrayal was fine. I also think you stopped at pretty much the worst possible moment, because the major arc that followed fleshed out her history, made her freaking awesome, and gave her body armor. But at least you've formed your opinion after having read it, because a lot of folks heard all the complaints, saw a couple pictures from the first issue, and then just dismissed her outright. As RHatO has been one of my favorite New 52 books in part because of Starfire, I always want to make sure she's not being complained about out of ignorance ^_^

By portrayal I meant sex. Cause she's slept with night wing and arsenal. Did she sleep with jason? I read them off YouTube and its only up to issue eight.

What's wrong about Starfire being promiscuous?

@Squares: Nods - have you read Psylocke in Uncanny X-Force? I haven't read it yet, but I believe she has a new outfit and has been written well, so if your looking for an opportunity to endear to her this might be your best opportunity.

@AllStarSuperman: Well, I don't think Nightwing should be factored into this for two reasons, the first being that this is New 52 continuity and we have no idea what the full extent of their relationship was due to Kori's amnesia and the second being that they were very close at the time, and it wasn't as if she was sleeping with him and others on the side. Had that been the case it would have been wrong insomuch as it would have hurt Nightwing.

As for Jason and Roy, yes, she slept with both of them, though to be fair she pretty much just used Jason and ever since she started with Roy that's pretty much become an exclusive relationship. She's also pretty much established that Tamaran didn't have the same conception of modesty and whatnot that Earth does, and that trope, of Starfire not understanding customs with nudity and intimacy, is certainly not new to the new Starfire.

@SC said:

@Squares: Nods - have you read Psylocke in Uncanny X-Force? I haven't read it yet, but I believe she has a new outfit and has been written well, so if your looking for an opportunity to endear to her this might be your best opportunity.

Psylocke was pretty sweet in the new Uncanny X-Force, though she did have a bit of a sailor's mouth. She'll also be in the new X-Men, which looks promising in the respecting powerful women department.

I don't think the costumes are offensive. On the whole I think they're rather absurd and stupid. High heels must be a nightmare to fight crime in, and having cut-outs in your armor over your squishiest bits must make you rather nervous in a firefight. I get that sex sells and I'm all about capitalism, but I feel like there's some sort of major disconnect going on. With male heroes the costume is either functional or, if they don't require function, at least looks kind of cool. For the most part, when I see a heroine's costume I just find myself wondering when fighting crime became such a popular pastime among strippers.Yes, yes, she's a strong, empowered woman, she can blah blah blah. It doesn't serve a function and it doesn't look cool, therefore it fails the requirements of superhero costume. Time to go back to the drawing board.

@Squares said:

@SC: Ah, yes, the character destroying aspects of blatant fanservice in comics. I find X-men comics are really bad for that kind of thing. Fun fact- it's also one of the many reasons I am unable to respect Psylocke.

@AllStarSuperman said:

@akbogert said:

@AllStarSuperman: See, if you'd said "clothing" I might have understood, but I thought her portrayal was fine. I also think you stopped at pretty much the worst possible moment, because the major arc that followed fleshed out her history, made her freaking awesome, and gave her body armor. But at least you've formed your opinion after having read it, because a lot of folks heard all the complaints, saw a couple pictures from the first issue, and then just dismissed her outright. As RHatO has been one of my favorite New 52 books in part because of Starfire, I always want to make sure she's not being complained about out of ignorance ^_^

By portrayal I meant sex. Cause she's slept with night wing and arsenal. Did she sleep with jason? I read them off YouTube and its only up to issue eight.

What's wrong about Starfire being promiscuous?

and she's not really "promiscuous" either....she's slept with 2 guys that we know of...what's the problem?

@SC: I read like two or three issues of the title and decided to ignore the series.

It's not her outfits that annoyed me so much as the explanation that was made up for them. Psylocke was a completely different character before the 90s, and then suddenly her brain got switched etc etc. Poorly thought-out excuse to add another T&A character.

@danhimself: Good point, I used the wrong term.

@roboadmiral: You make a good point- it's the chainmail bikini problem all over again. Personally I don't really understand or see the need for female characters to wear heels with their costumes- at least, in terms of function.

@Squares: I will say this though. Your avatar just reminded me of how much I miss Zatanna's top hat and tailcoat. Function be damned, they were cool.

@Squares said:

@SC: Ah, yes, the character destroying aspects of blatant fanservice in comics. I find X-men comics are really bad for that kind of thing. Fun fact- it's also one of the many reasons I am unable to respect Psylocke.

@AllStarSuperman said:

@akbogert said:

@AllStarSuperman: See, if you'd said "clothing" I might have understood, but I thought her portrayal was fine. I also think you stopped at pretty much the worst possible moment, because the major arc that followed fleshed out her history, made her freaking awesome, and gave her body armor. But at least you've formed your opinion after having read it, because a lot of folks heard all the complaints, saw a couple pictures from the first issue, and then just dismissed her outright. As RHatO has been one of my favorite New 52 books in part because of Starfire, I always want to make sure she's not being complained about out of ignorance ^_^

By portrayal I meant sex. Cause she's slept with night wing and arsenal. Did she sleep with jason? I read them off YouTube and its only up to issue eight.

What's wrong about Starfire being promiscuous?

Because I don't want to read about her sex life I read comics for fight scenes and explosions and a good story. Not for anything sex related I just think its weird to read stuff like that.

@AllStarSuperman: Sex does not equal a bad story, though I suppose if you're aggressively disinterested in it it could...

@akbogert said:

@AllStarSuperman: I think it's erroneous to believe that sex is antithetical to good storytelling. I also didn't feel like it was really a focus anyway. *shrug*

At this point I think the Starfire conversation is derailing the overall direction of the thread though....

Actually, I think it's very pertinent.

@AllStarSuperman: I think it's erroneous to believe that sex is antithetical to good storytelling. I also didn't feel like it was really a focus anyway. *shrug*

At this point I think the Starfire conversation is derailing the overall direction of the thread though....

@akbogert: ok what you say makes since bit I just think sex in comic books is weird and I don't want to read it.

@Squares: Fair enough. I thought maybe it was a bit too specific, but...your thread, your call :)

@AllStarSuperman: I think a bunch of gloriously athletic, intelligent, good-looking, and well-liked people who are never intimate...that would be weird.

@AllStarSuperman said:

@akbogert: ok what you say makes since bit I just think sex in comic books is weird and I don't want to read it.

Fair enough. I can see why you'd find Starfire irritating.

@akbogert said:

@Squares: Fair enough. I thought maybe it was a bit too specific, but...your thread, your call :)

@AllStarSuperman: I think a bunch of gloriously athletic, intelligent, good-looking, and well-liked people who are never intimate...that would be weird.

Some people don't have sex though, so it's quite possible this could happen.

I don't know if there are any asexuals in comics though.

@V_Scarlotte_Rose: Oh sure, it could happen. I just think the notion of not wanting any sex in comics sort of limits the capacity of the medium to reflect any kind of realism in its characters. I appreciate not wanting to read it, or especially not wanting it to be done tactlessly or exploitatively. But intimacy in and of itself really does have a place.

@Dernman said:

It doesn't bother me at all but I would at least want it to look good. Take Vamperella for instance. The costume just looks plain dumb.

Vampirella doesn't really wear the red costume in the books anymore though....for the most part that costume is only used on the covers....she mostly wears fairly normal clothes

@V_Scarlotte_Rose said:

@akbogert said:

@Squares: Fair enough. I thought maybe it was a bit too specific, but...your thread, your call :)

@AllStarSuperman: I think a bunch of gloriously athletic, intelligent, good-looking, and well-liked people who are never intimate...that would be weird.

Some people don't have sex though, so it's quite possible this could happen.

I don't know if there are any asexuals in comics though.

I don't know of any asexual characters, and that honestly makes me kind of sad.

@Squares: Dr. Manhattan seemed ambivalent to sex at best...

@akbogert said:

@Squares: Fair enough. I thought maybe it was a bit too specific, but...your thread, your call :)

@AllStarSuperman: I think a bunch of gloriously athletic, intelligent, good-looking, and well-liked people who are never intimate...that would be weird.

Some people don't have sex though, so it's quite possible this could happen.

I don't know if there are any asexuals in comics though.

@Dernman: If Starfire can, apparently, be called a slut for sleeping with two different people, what does that make She-hulk?

@akbogert: I don't think removing sex would take too much away, unless it was a relationship based series. Taking away romance in general would be a bigger deal though. I suppose it does have a place, if done correctly.

@V_Scarlotte_Rose: Yeah. I'm not going to try to say "there must be sex, and lots of it, and between every romantic couple." And there are plenty of reasons to leave it entirely off-panel. But not always. I just think it's a bit excessive to say one doesn't want sex in comics, that's all.

@Squares said:

@V_Scarlotte_Rose said:

@akbogert said:

@Squares: Fair enough. I thought maybe it was a bit too specific, but...your thread, your call :)

@AllStarSuperman: I think a bunch of gloriously athletic, intelligent, good-looking, and well-liked people who are never intimate...that would be weird.

Some people don't have sex though, so it's quite possible this could happen.

I don't know if there are any asexuals in comics though.

I don't know of any asexual characters, and that honestly makes me kind of sad.

It'd be nice to have at least one, but seeing as 'sex sells', maybe it won't happen.

I'd worry it wouldn't be handled correctly though.

@V_Scarlotte_Rose said:

@Squares said:

@V_Scarlotte_Rose said:

@akbogert said:

@Squares: Fair enough. I thought maybe it was a bit too specific, but...your thread, your call :)

@AllStarSuperman: I think a bunch of gloriously athletic, intelligent, good-looking, and well-liked people who are never intimate...that would be weird.

Some people don't have sex though, so it's quite possible this could happen.

I don't know if there are any asexuals in comics though.

I don't know of any asexual characters, and that honestly makes me kind of sad.

It'd be nice to have at least one, but seeing as 'sex sells', maybe it won't happen.

I'd worry it wouldn't be handled correctly though.

Good call. It probably wouldn't be handled properly at all.

@akbogert:To not want any sex to be in any comics is a little silly, even if you personally don't want to read it.

Sex happens, so naturally it'll be mentioned sometimes.

@V_Scarlotte_Rose said:

@akbogert:To not want any sex to be in any comics is a little silly, even if you personally don't want to read it.

Sex happens, so naturally it'll be mentioned sometimes.

Precisely.

@Dernman: If Starfire can, apparently, be called a slut for sleeping with two different people, what does that make She-hulk?

@Dernman: It's funny, Iron Man has berated She-Hulk for being...well, as sexually active as She-Hulk, yet he sleeps around a lot more...

@Squares said:

@V_Scarlotte_Rose said:

@Squares said:

@V_Scarlotte_Rose said:

@akbogert said:

@Squares: Fair enough. I thought maybe it was a bit too specific, but...your thread, your call :)

@AllStarSuperman: I think a bunch of gloriously athletic, intelligent, good-looking, and well-liked people who are never intimate...that would be weird.

Some people don't have sex though, so it's quite possible this could happen.

I don't know if there are any asexuals in comics though.

I don't know of any asexual characters, and that honestly makes me kind of sad.

It'd be nice to have at least one, but seeing as 'sex sells', maybe it won't happen.

I'd worry it wouldn't be handled correctly though.

Good call. It probably wouldn't be handled properly at all.

If I ever get into the comic business, I'll handle it properly. :)

What is wrong with sex in comics though. One of favorite series that got me into manga and anime in general has the couple finally getting intimate in the last book. To me that was a proper way to go out and end the series with. Throughout all their ups and downs on the relationship they finally became one. I really don't see a problem the subject of sex or nudity in most media outlets as long as its done tastefully. But I am getting off topic here.

Offensive costumes. Being a male I never really saw it as something to take offense of. I always saw it as something that if the person likes to wear it than by all means let them wear it. I never got into the whole realism of it because of the fact that you really are dealing with fictional characters after all. I read enough manga where the Hero/Heroine wields gigantic weapons three times there size, so the practical affects of it really don't make sense to me. Sames goes for the outfits.

Though I will be guilty of always being disturb at the property damage/lives lost in any fictional piece of work.

@Dernman: It's funny, Iron Man has berated She-Hulk for being...well, as sexually active as She-Hulk, yet he sleeps around a lot more...

im not offended, but im not a female.

@Dernman: Don't know, I think he was trying to use it as an excuse to kick her off The Avengers. I doubt she was impressed.

@Squares said:

@Dernman: Don't know, I think he was trying to use it as an excuse to kick her off The Avengers. I doubt she was impressed.

@V_Scarlotte_Rose: I'm definately rooting for you, then :)

@Squares said:

@V_Scarlotte_Rose: I'm definately rooting for you, then :)

Woo! :)

I'd better work out how I'd do it then.

@V_Scarlotte_Rose: @akbogert: romance is OK like between Clark and Lois pre flash point. But when its like starfire its not that she slept with three guys its that she and Roy had sex when Jason and her kinda had something. And that roys insane to piss Jason off. I like arsenal and I like redhood but I don't want to see any of there sex life.

Personally I could care less what the females wear. It's only the males in comic books that I'm interested in.