Nat 100% got very quality feats in Black Widow

Nat really had impressive skill showings in the movie.

She not only fought like a dozen widows at once, but she completely outclassed them in skill for at least 45 seconds. She only lost cause there were 20 of them (or more). These Widows are some of the most skilled fighters in the MCU, not even close to fodder. I’d reckon one Widow would beat one clint if it came down to H2H

She completely disarmed and outmaneuvered Taskmaster while holding back and injured, this is someone who has superhuman physicals and is one of the most impressive high-skill combatants we’ve seen in Marvel movies.

Nat’s kicks were also impressive in the movie, both their power and speed. This was on display when she was fighting the Russian prison guards

Durability wise, Nat tanked so much punishment, car crashes, falls, thrown off a bridge, explosions, debris

Agility wise, the entire air sequence as well as her escape from the prison show she’s in a class of her own as an unenhanced human. Specifically the air sequence, I don’t think we’ve ever seen something like that done by a normal person in the MCU

Where do you get your estimation of each Widow’s skill level from?

Clint scales to Nat herself so thinking each Widow is more skilled than Clint makes zero sense.

Regardless though, yeah her showings against the Widows was a good one.

Also her last fight against Taskmaster is pure PIS considering she was getting curbstomped and manhandled at the start.

Agree with the durability stuff.

Good durability feats for sure. But nothing else tbh

The free fall sequence at the end was pure superhero action. I can’t think of many LA peak humans who would replicate that. It takes a real Avenger to perform feats like that.

Taskmaster bullied a 5-6 tonner in Red Guardian so she was legitimately impressive. Nat was outclassed in the first fight but she seemed to be at least relative with Taskmaster at the end. Taskmaster is as skilled as anyone in the MCU.

Also, her widow bites, when charged long enough can potentially kill someone. So there's that as well.

I'm waiting for haters to come in and say that TM was garbage fodder/Nat beat her in the end by PIS/the dozen Black Widows that Nat fought were just housewives in leather outfits.

@krisbishop: Widow has never once actually went all out against Clint in a single film so the scaling isn’t remotely equal.

Avengers- Clint used full gear, was bloodlusted, and was in perfect health. Widow was just punched by Hulk, didn’t use any gear, and wasn’t actually trying to hurt him badly.

Civil War- Just a spar really and can’t be used.

Endgame- In hand to hand he was taken out relatively easily, she was also confirmed the better fighter. He needed gear to slow her down.

What the OP said was that in hand to hand he can see a Widow defeating Clint in pure hand to hand and I agree completely. Clint has never and will never be Nat’s equal when it comes to hand to hand skill.

OT: I agree, Widow proved herself as the most skilled character currently in the mcu

@the_hajduk: In their first fight Taskmaster had full gear, blew up Widow’s car and knocked her out immediately prior to the fight, and his style mirroring her visually caught her off guard while Taskmaster was completely prepared. Widow was also in street clothes and only had a single pistol as far as combative weapons go.

In the second fight Widow was still injured and this time she was also holding back, but she was more prepared to counter Taskmaster’s fighting style. Widow was portrayed as the better fighter.

@emmafrostxmen: I’m not saying Clint is equal to Nat. But I’m saying he scales as someone who is more than a match for her and consistently at least makes her struggle. This intent has always been clear as day in the MCU.

Claiming someone like that is inferior to a character that Nat can take on a dozen of is beyond absurd.

Note that you are basically saying Nat can easily take more than a dozen Clints. That’s the statement you’re going with.

@krisbishop: Nat didn’t “take” those Widow’s so no. I’m saying that in pure hand to hand Hawkeye has never been her equal in any form of a fair fight and you have no evidence to the contrary. All that is confirmed is “she is a better fighter than him”. Hawkeye is skilled, but Widow is a full tier above him in hand to hand skill, and that goes for Cap and Panther too.

@emmafrostxmen: I literally just agreed with you that Clint is inferior to Nat, so I’m not sure why you’re repeating yourself.

Clint can put up a good fight, but Nat is superior. That is the intent.

Also, note that Nat was holding back so much she refused to actually hurt any of the Widows beyond stopping them with a Widow bite, putting her at a major handicap. It’s arguable she could have won had she fought seriously.

Widow isn't a full tier above Clint in hand to hand. She's slightly better. Maybe even a decent bit better. But she's never outclassed him. Their fight in civil war competitive.

CV also has a very unrealistic take on skill. As if it's somehow separate from physical attributes and can scale up into infinity. There is actually a pretty low ceiling on skill because there's only so many techniques that are actually effective in a fight. Execution of a technique is more important than knowledge of one, and strength and speed are real factors in how well you execute a technique. I would even go so far as to say that the reason that Natasha is better than Clint isn't because she knows more technique or better technique. It's that she's more flexible and faster in execution. And the advantage is slight.

Taskmaster isn't on Cap's level. Taskmaster's skills is the result of a computer analyzing the moves that Cap, Bucky, and Panther used during Civil War. There might be some Spiderman thrown in there too. But Taskmaster doesn't actually have all of their skills. For example, Black Panther's skills with a sword and the jiu-jitsu that he used against M'Baku would be something that Taskmaster won't have, as that is something he's only ever shown in the secrecy of Wakanda. Iron Man can do this too. Only he's even better, because Iron Man can calculate a fighting style to counter Cap's boxing. And even then....Iron Man had to use rocket boosted swings and repulsors, because Jarvis determined that it was impossible to beat Cap in hand to hand

@krisbishop: I doubt she could take on 20 extremely skilled assassins. Maybe she could take 7-10 but not the sheer amount that were in that room.

I know you said she’s better than him, but he’s not really even close to her in pure hand to hand. That was my point.

She definitely got impressive feats but she's always been that impressive, not counting IM2 which I haven't watched.

• Avengers: She fought Chitauri
• Winter Soldier: She fought a super soldier
• Age of Ultron: She fought Ultron's sentries
• Civil War: She fought super soldiers and Ant-Man
• Infinity War: She fought the Black Order and Outriders

Even on an individual stat level, she's one shot armored men, taken punches from super soldiers and evaded bullets.

What's also important to note is Taskmaster didn't win the first fight due to skill, the last kick that sent Nat off the bridge was actually blocked by her with the shield, so from a skill standpoint it doesn't even count, it was just Taskmaster's ridiculous stats that sent her flying through the air like a ragdoll despite blocking the kick.

@alavanka: Replying to your post from the other thread here as i couldn't post it there, and as this thread deals pretty much with the same topic it should be okay.

"Don't get what you're trying to prove here. Walking forward and trying to choke someone with one arm is objectively a bad move. Bucky can afford to walk forward like the Terminator and choke you because he's got a metal arm that can outmuscle a supersoldier. It's not a testament of his skill."

Proving that she was doing the same as in the first fight, copying MCU fighters. The fact that you didn't like her choice of action doesn't change that.

She was also copying Iron Man in the bridge fight what makes even less sense given the fact she can't fly and shoot blasts. The choreographers were obviously going for recognizable moves so that a good chunk of the audience gets the references. From a logical standpoint it would make more sense to copy Batroc's moves than Iron Man's, but as nobody outside of a handful nerds would recognize Batroc's style they used moves from the best-known characters instead. And the choke move can easily be connected to Winter Soldier, so they used it. If the move makes sense isn't important, the intent is clearly to show that Nat is capable of keeping up with TM skill-wise.

@nassergrant19: you’re back!

OT: excellent durability feats. I find it personally hard as BJORK to rate her feats against TM. All over the place. Final sequence seemed to be straight PIS, though I’m open to the idea that she just changed up or used more of a surprise factor type thing.

@supremegeneration: Yeah I’m back, thanks for noticing btw. I was/kinda still am having problems with the site in terms of the bugs.

OT: More durability feats, that’s pretty much it, Nat, Yelena, and Taskmaster will all look like fodder skill wise when Shang Chi comes out though.

@nassergrant19: I wish people would stop bringing up shang chi

@kfost_5:

Why not? He’s gonna be the #1 most skilled MCU martial artist period, and his family will also join the (top 5).

His martial arts fighting skill is also gonna be tiers above the fighting we’ve seen before in the MCU.

Tbh only salty haters want to avoid talking about him lol. Nat fanboys who are fresh off of the current widow wank hate that she’ll be leagues below Shang Chi and his family in skill and to be honest I understand their pain. I doubt her or Yelena will crack top 10 when Shang Chi comes out.

Idk about you but I’m hype to see him. He’s awesome in the comics and he’s gonna be amazing in the MCU.

@chicago_bastard:

TM‘s only skill feat is slapping around a fat unskilled middle aged SS. She wasn’t impressive in the slightest.

Also her imitations don’t come close to the original. This is proven when TM copied Nat’s skill but still lost to the real Nat.

Nat got better durability feats but that’s pretty much it. She’s still below the high tier H2H skill specialists like Steve, T’Challa and Daredevil.

Anyways like I’ve said before none of this even matters anymore Nat, Yelena, and Taskmaster will all look like fodder skill wise when Shang Chi comes out though.

Tbh I doubt Nat will crack top 10 when the film comes out in 2 months. Not only will Shang Chi be the most skilled, he has an entire family that is on his level of mastery.

Hell, Yelena’s next big H2H threat is freaking Hawkeye lmao.

For all we know Shang chi could turn out to be Shang shit

@nassergrant19: I doubt that Shang-Chi's family will consist of ten members so it's impossible for her to drop out of the top ten.

@chicago_bastard:

Shang Chi has more than much more than 10 family members in the comics. His family is huge. In the MCU they obviously won’t reveal the entire family in the first film but they’ll show a large amount of it. Plus he has non-blood related rivals who are leagues above everyone else in skill as well.

And its not like she‘s number one currently, so her being below Steve and T’Challa will also be a disadvantage when Shang Chi comes out. I’ll be generous and say she won’t be top 5 but even that’s pushing it.

Shang Chi is gonna be so far above everyone in skill it’s not even funny.

Are you trolling?

Dude…have you seen the trailers or are you just in denial? Lmao Baby Shang Chi is literally trained in pressure points and teen Shang Chi is fodderizing highly skilled ninja. The family is so skilled they can perform insane feats of agility that are superior to SS due to pure Kung Fu mastery. The directors of the Matrix are behind it…and you’ve seen the martial arts skill in those films…

Never mind, I can clearly see your one of those salty trolls who doesn’t like the fact that Shang Chi will be the most skilled martial artist in the MCU and will make TM, Yelena and Nat look like fodder lol.

@nassergrant19: umm in my book nat is number 1 in skill so she won’t drop down that much taskmaster proved that no matter how much pepole wanna downplay the feat it was confirmed that taskmaster had mastered the skills of BP CA and Hawkeye

@kfost_5:

TM‘s only skill feat is slapping around a fat unskilled middle aged SS. She wasn’t impressive in the slightest, and she’d lose to most skilled characters due to having inferior feats.

Also her copies don’t come close to the original. This is proven when TM copied Nat’s skill but still lost to the real Nat. Unless your trying to say Nat is more skilled than herself lol. Most intelligent people have realized this by now.

Copying skills doesn’t do shit if it’s not as good as the real thing.

Nat got better durability feats but that’s pretty much it. She’s still below the high tier H2H skill specialists like Steve, T’Challa and Daredevil. For Pete’s sake Yelena’s next H2H threat is Hawkeye lmao.

So no I doubt she’ll crack top 10 after Shang Chi, and yes I can tell you think Nat is somehow number one lol. That’s why your salty Shang Chi is coming out.

@nassergrant19: TM didn't copy Nat's skill in the final fight so your point doesn't even make sense. When she copied Nat's skill in the first fight she countered Nat's signature move and threw Nat down instead.

Also it was actually the stunt double of Chris Evans who performed the TM fights in the suit. The same guy that did Steve's moves in the earlier films did them as TM so it's clear that what we see TM do on screen is exactly the same skill as Cap's because the same person performed the moves.

@chicago_bastard:

TM didn't copy Nat's skill in the final fight so your point doesn't even make sense.

She copied it in the beginning and had it at her disposal against Nat in the final fight genius.

She had the skill copied already, and still lost.

When she copied Nat's skill in the first fight she countered Nat's signature move and threw Nat down instead.

One hit doesn’t win fights. She canonically had Nat’s skill and still lost to the real Nat. It doesn’t come close to the real thing.

Also it was actually the stunt double of Chris Evans who performed the TM fights in the suit.

Who cares? I thought you were against choreography lmao. Your hypocrisy is so transparent it’s embarrassing.

TM had Nat’s skill and still lost to Nat.

The same guy that did Steve's moves in the earlier films did them as TM so it's clear that what we see TM do on screen is exactly the same skill as Cap's because the same person performed the moves.

Just because you can copy some moves doesn’t mean your as good as the real thing.

TM’s only skill feat is slapping around a fat unskilled middle aged super soldier. There’s no proof she could replicate high tier skill feats. She’d easily lose to most high tier skilled combatants in the MCU.

She lost to Nat even though she had her skill set in her memory.

Nat got better durability feats but she’s still below the MCU high tiers in skill.

Like I said, none of this even matters, none of these people will crack top 5 when Shang Chi comes out. There’s really no point in this.

@nassergrant19: So now unskilled super soldiers aren't special? Aren't you the guy who wanked the hell out of one kick that Sam managed against a super soldier who was by far more unskilled than Red Guardian? Also I doubt that the Russians chose someone who is unskilled to fill the role of their Captain America counterpart. TM just made him look bad because she's so good.

You do realize that comic Taskmaster also lost plenty of fights against street levelers despite being able to copy their skill? If his opponent is skilled and clever enough to switch his style it can happen, just as it did in the movie. Doesn't make TM unskilled.

But it's good to see that you put all your hope now in Shang-Chi. Even you are too embarrassed to go on with your Sam wank, that shows that Nat's feats from her movie must be good.

@nassergrant19: Nat switched up her style at the end of the movie and that Sam beats widow in h2h thing was laughable and taskmaster has to be superhuman to some degree kicking widow off of a bridge hurting a ss with her punches it may have been the suit like a better cross bones situation

@kfost_5:

Nat switched up her style at the end of the movie and that Sam beats widow in h2h thing was laughable

There’s nothing in canon that says she switched anything. She literally jumped on her back like she did to dozens of opponents for 10 years. TM had Nat’s skill and still lost. The copies don’t come close to the real thing. TM’s only feat is bullying a fat unskilled middle aged SS.

Yeah because Sam having better skill feats is laughable lol. Just wait till Cap 4, you’ll still be hating on him then when he gets even more skilled lmao.

and taskmaster has to be superhuman

Good stats, that’s it.

to some degree kicking widow off of a bridge hurting a ss with her punches it may have been the suit like a better cross bones situation

I agree, good durability feats and stats. That’s it. In terms of skill she‘s still below high tier MCU martial artists in skill.

Like I said there’s no point in talking about this. Unless your salty troll or straight up in denial you’d realize that in 2 months Shang Chi and his family are gonna make her look like fodder skill wise. I doubt she’ll crack top 10 then.

Yelena’s next big challenge is freaking Hawkeye lmao.

@nassergrant19:The only thing I said about Shang-Chi is that I doubt we'll see nine family members of him in the movie. If that bothers you that much then surely you are the butthurt one.

So you still haven't learned that repeating the same things again and again doesn't amount to arguing your case. Geez you literally wrote your "Clint is her next challenge" nonsense four (!) times on one page. Even if that actually mattered, do you believe people aren't able to understand it the first time? The fact that everyone ignored it is not because they didn't comprehend it, it's simply due to it being a completely nonsensical point for this discussion. Her next challenge is what fits the storyline of the MCU and guess what, Clint was the one with Nat on Vormir so it makes sense that Val says he is responsible for Nat's death. Telling her that it was Steve or Thor would make no sense. A five year old could explain that to you.