Naruto and Sasuke's Last Fight disappointed me a bit. Expected them both to go all out.

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BatmanPlusJay

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#1  Edited By BatmanPlusJay

I was angry in this post. So what I say here, for example "I hated this fight" is not my official feeling. It's just the anger talking. But it IS true this fight is lopsided AS HELL.

I hope the words "hell" and "damn" aren't banned on this site too. If so, just lemme know and I'll remove all foul language.

I'm so disappointed in Naruto. Sasuke should have killed him if Naruto's gonna act like a ##### the whole fight. Did Naruto completely lose all of his skill in taijutsu?

All the hype was for nothing. The hell is the point of even making this fight if you're not gonna make them(specifically Naruto, since they had Sasuke down pack already) fight as accurately as possible? It's like they nerfed Naruto or something.

Naruto's taijutsu was trash. He didn't do anything but spam clones, but they make Naruto do great in taijutsu against Pain? And Menma? But in the MOST IMPORTANT FIGHT.... Naruto's taijutsu is complete trash. Should have just substituted Naruto with Sakura.. They need to make Naruto look more pro and use taijutsu more like he's done in the past and in "The Last".

And yes I was mad. Had me all hype for nothing. I'm thinking they're gonna go all out. They're gonna give each other a run for their money. Apparently not since Sasuke is the only one on offense.

And yeah I know Naruto was holding back, but he wouldn't hold back so badly to a point it's costing him the fight. Their first fight was even more entertaining. In their first fight Naruto was also beating the living crap out of Sasuke and vice versa. It looked evened out and intense.

Compare this fight to any fight Naruto's had in the past, and you'll see how dumb it is. When Naruto fought pain? He was smart on how he used his clones and beat pain in taijutsu and used his mind. When he fought the black Kyuubi, he completely destroyed it(strictly using taijutsu). In this? He just throws'em out like a pokemon to go and fight. It's like Naruto's lost the ability to think and react and lost his abilities in skill. Made Naruto underwhelming as hell. All they made him do is block/deflect the attacks that were actually lethal(like the chidori and the arrow).

BUT IN NARUTO'S DEFENSE.. it does prove Naruto is equal to Sasuke..

Before you say "Sasuke is better in every aspect".. read this VV..... Naruto surpassed sasuke after the Pain arc btw.

Already established naruto is equal to, or better than Sasuke in taijutsu up in my comments below. And Naruto does plan. He has great observation skills and planning. He beat Pain using both of them. He also got Kaguya a few times planning. And Madara, and raikage, and so on and so on. Naruto planned in each and every one of those fights to take them out. Who says Naruto doesn't "plan" his attacks? Who says he's "bad" at taijutsu when I made it perfectly clear in the posts above that Naruto is equal and in sage mode, he is superior. Only reason Sasuke "looks" so good is because of Sharingan. If he didn't use it, and Base Sasuke vs Base Naruto, they would even out.

Not to mention, when Sasuke shot that fireball at Naruto in the manga, Naruto easily dismembered it. But in the anime.. the fireball was pushing him into the ground.. The creators were legit aiming to try and make Sasuke look better when Naruto wasn't even taking Sasuke all that seriously. He was taking him seriously in the end because otherwise Sasuke would have eventually killed him, but in the beginning and middle? Nope. Naruto still had a counter to everything Sasuke pulled off. Except the bullcrap the animators let Sasuke get away with.

My WHOLE point here is that the taijutsu could have been better. A base Naruto vs an EMS/Rinnegan Sasuke? LOL Lopsided AS ####. If Naruto went into sage mode, he'd have made Sasuke wanna stop the CQC and go into Susano'o earlier on in the fight.

I rate this a 8/10. They could have made Naruto go harder though.

Here's the fight if you didn't see:

So, what did you think of the fight?

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BatmanPlusJay

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Omfg this fight had me angry. I was so disappointed. Sasuke did great on his part. Naruto..? If you read what I wrote, you already know.

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the_stegman

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#4  Edited By the_stegman  Moderator

Meh, honestly, they don't even have anything to fight about. The animation was cool. I dug the fight.

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PrinceAragorn1

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#5  Edited By PrinceAragorn1

Sasuke was always better than naruto in terms of taijutsu, and clones are his signature technique. I guess it would be infuriating for a naruto fan to see him losing in skill, but his strong point was his stamina and endurance.

Personally, loved the fight - perhaps not what you want to hear right now.

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JuzaCloud

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#6  Edited By JuzaCloud

@batmanplusjay: They clearly copied the final battle in S-Cry-Ed. Even the two main characters are like Naruto and Sasuke from colors of clothing, personality, fighting style. Kazuma and Ryuhou power up to their final forms and clash creating a moon sized explosion. After that they fight each other for hours in their regular forms in a h2h slugfest until they both are near death.

Naruto even copies them screaming out each others name lol

I started the video at the final form part.

Loading Video...

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deactivated-614ce5c370323

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Imo loved the fight sasuke does seem to be a lot more impressive in taijutsu. Also no to be rude dude but you seem a bit

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BatmanPlusJay

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@jaycool2 said:

Imo loved the fight sasuke does seem to be a lot more impressive in taijutsu. Also no to be rude dude but you seem a bit

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Lol. Yeah I was mad. I'm quicktempered. So excuse that if you can. XD I still am disappointed in Naruto though.

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deactivated-614ce5c370323

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@jaycool2 said:

Imo loved the fight sasuke does seem to be a lot more impressive in taijutsu. Also no to be rude dude but you seem a bit

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Lol. Yeah I was mad. I'm quicktempered. So excuse that if you can. XD I still am disappointed in Naruto though.

It's okay I respect your opinion. Honestly I found some of the fighting a little strange they should have been a little more equal but Naruto while holding back imo wasn't that bad. But that's just what I think.

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ReaperTheGrim

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#10  Edited By ReaperTheGrim

Meh sasuke's sharingan has always made him >>naruto in h2h and clone spam never worked on sasuke except in kn0, I think the worst thing was that naruto has always used underhanded tactics in his fights, kiba and neji as example were out skilling him and his clone spam, but his tactics aloud him to win, and even though sosp naruto had superior physicals he couldn't overpower sasuke because he has better defenses and insta teleport, the sad thing is that even with clone spam he is usually alot smarter with them like against pain, instead he just spawn 3 at a time and constantly got destroyed. And against sasuke's biju susanoo when naruto kept spamming the same ineffective attacks, well look at his fight against nagato he gets his jutsu absorbed and then immediately use rasengan, in otherwords he's and idiot.

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BatmanPlusJay

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Sasuke was always better than naruto in terms of taijutsu, and clones are his signature technique. I guess it would be infuriating for a naruto fan to see him losing in skill, but his strong point was his stamina and endurance.

Personally, loved the fight - perhaps not what you want to hear right now.

Naruto is good in taijutsu. He actually on-par with Sasuke. When Naruto went away for 3 years, he learned taijutsu from Jiriyah. A legendary Sannin. And if you want proof of Naruto's taijutsu, I have it. And let me disclaim that Frog sage mode, doesn't make you automatically good at taijutsu(it does make you stronger and faster though). Naruto has always been good at it. I know they said Naruto was holding back but he wouldn't do it to a point it'd cost him the fight. But anyway here's some taijutsu:

Loading Video...

And some more:

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Naruto even fought pain with divided attention. He was talking and fighting at the same time. He completely outclasses pain in taijutsu.

He's on-par with Sasuke. This fight was just bias and dumb.

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BatmanPlusJay

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Me sasuke's sharingan has always made him>naruto in h2h and clone spam never worked on sasuke except in kn0, I think the worst thing was that naruto has always used underhanded tactics in his fights, kiba and near as example were put skilling him and his clone spam, but his tactics aloud him to win, and even though soap naruto had superior physicals he couldn't overpower sasuke because he has better defenses and insta teleport, the sad thing is that even with clone spam he is usually another smarter with them like against pain, instead he just spaced 3 at a time and constantly got destroyed. And against sasuke's biju susanoo when naruto kept spamming the same ineffective attacks, well look at his fight against naruto he gets his jutsu absorbed and then immediately use rasengan, in otherwords he's and idiot.

IKR!! It's like he didn't even bother to be smart with his clones. He just splat them out there hoping for the best. And tbh, Sasuke's sharingan doesn't do that to taijutsu. Sasuke's gotten his butt handed to him in taijutsu many times before despite the sharingan. And Naruto and Sasuke are of equal speed. Naruto is able to keep up. Idk why they did this mess though. They made Naruto completely brain-dead and lose all skill. I've already proven Naruto's good at taijutsu(comment above) if you want proof.

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PrinceAragorn1

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#13  Edited By PrinceAragorn1

@batmanplusjay:

Nothing in my comment implied naruto was bad at taijutsu, so most of that is a moot post... However, they have actually gone hand to hand before in the series, sasuke has always been the better one - and clones are what naruto used to stay in the fight. Not seeing any reason to be mad when they showed us what we already knew.

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BatmanPlusJay

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#14  Edited By BatmanPlusJay

@princearagorn1: And that is bias. Lmao. Name a time, besides this one, where Naruto used only clones to stay in the fight. Since their first fight(in the first naruto series), Naruto and Sasuke has never had an actual encounter. Until now.

Naruto is amazing in agility and taijutsu. So why do they make it seem like only Sasuke can do those moves in taijutsu? It seems like a damn episode intro is even more accurate in their fight than this fight. Ik they said he was holding back in this fight but god damn, holding back to a point he didn't even wanna punch Sasuke?

Loading Video...

This fight is even more accurate.

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PrinceAragorn1

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#15  Edited By PrinceAragorn1

@batmanplusjay:

there were two fights in the series - one was at VoTE as you mentioned, second was before that, on the rooftop. He also used clones there, and sasuke took out a lot of them with taijutsu.

...also, sasuke was better before, they both got older/stronger, and he's still better. I am not seeing your logic in saying that is biased.

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BatmanPlusJay

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#16  Edited By BatmanPlusJay

@princearagorn1: I saw on that rooftop. But that wasn't a real fight. That was Tsunade's dream.

Plus there's a difference between "using clones to stay in the fight" and "using clones". Naruto's just "using clones". They're not even keeping him in the fight. Majority of that is him blocking and (for whatever reason) not hitting Sasuke. When Naruto wants to get serious, he will. But in this fight they said Naruto was holding back(my whole complaint is "WHY" is he holding back, just saying that before you think my next statement contradicts my points). Meaning Naruto wasn't fighting to his full potential up til the point of the second half of the fight where he had to stop Indra's Arrow.

So we didn't even see Naruto's full potential in CQC against Sasuke in this fight. For all we know, he's holding back and for some reason forgot how to dodge punches even though he has great reaction time too. They shouldn't have done that in this fight. They should have made Naruto at least go 70%.

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BatmanPlusJay

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#17  Edited By BatmanPlusJay

@princearagorn1: And also, lemme point out I'm not one to call other opinions a fact, but lots of people know his fighting was off. It's almost like he completely is brainwashed in this and doesn't even know wtf he is doing. People say it's weird, or "a bit off" or "lopsided" because it is. Naruto isn't fighting like he usually does. He's just flailing punches and clones for whatever reason.

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ReaperTheGrim

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#18  Edited By ReaperTheGrim

@princearagorn1: but isn't that the point of his clones, he uses them to close the gap in skill between them. Like you can see naruto getting the crap kicked out of him as he desperately tries to summon some clones, and then after the indras arrow clash when he is far weaker he makes multiple shadow clones without using seals, Um did he forget he could do that. Tbh I'm pretty sure this is the only fight in the series where naruto hasn't used any technical strategys, even his clone play was idiotic.

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BatmanPlusJay

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wafflecone72

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#20  Edited By wafflecone72

@batmanplusjay: I completely agree. The series really went down hill during the pre shinobi war arc and as pretty flawed prior (with characters not getting enough screen time). Its sad that they put more animation skill into their fillers than their cannon material.

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BatmanPlusJay

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But doesn't anyone else agree Naruto was holding back waaay too much?

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wafflecone72

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Also to criticize the fight choreography itself, its just not inventive or as fast pace as fights like say kakashi vs obito. Its not as fluent and it didn't hold my attention for very long. There wasn't much dramatic buildup and there wasn't much inventive scenery done with the environment to complement their abilities.

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slimj87d

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#23  Edited By slimj87d

I don't have much of a problem with the way the taijitsu h2h went.

Naruto is supposed to matching Sasuke's EMS with superior physicals via sage mode or KCM. In the beginning, I think it's made clear that Sasuke was using his eyes and Naruto was in bade form, his clones and monstrous stamina is what made it even. When Naruto used sage of the sixth paths cloak mode,the animators had to make sure to separate them and make it a projectile match because honestly, Sasuke shouldn't be able to keep up with Naruto being boosted with sage mode and the 9 tails, Naruto is the body of the sage hermit after all.

Even after their mecha modes were dispelled, you can see again that Sasuke activated EMS to take all those clones out.

If Naruto started the fight in sixth path sage mode, his taijitsu would have evenly matched or exceeded Sasuke and EMS. It would have forced Sasuke into summoning susanoo far earlier.

You can say that Naruto was holding back and really fighting defensively and not offensively.

What they could have done differently to make the match look more even? Naruto should have fought in pain sage mode against Sasuke and not have to rely on his clones. It would have looked cooler if it remained 1 on 1.

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wafflecone72

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@batmanplusjay: Yes It was straight up hard to watch. Naruto should know that sasuke is one tough cookie. He should have went at him like he was trying to kill him. IT would increase drama and and be more enjoyable for the audience.

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BatmanPlusJay

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#25  Edited By BatmanPlusJay

@slimj87d said:

I don't have much of a problem with the way the taijitsu h2h went.

Naruto is supposed to matching Sasuke's EMS with superior physicals via sage mode or KCM. In the beginning, I think it's made clear that Sasuke was using his eyes and Naruto was in bade form, his clones and monstrous stamina is what made it even. When Naruto used sage of the sixth paths cloak mode,the animators had to make sure to separate them and make it a projectile match because honestly, Sasuke shouldn't be able to keep up with Naruto being boosted with sage mode and the 9 tails, Naruto is the body of the sage hermit after all.

Even after their mecha modes were dispelled, you can see again that Sasuke activated EMS to take all those clones out.

If Naruto started the fight in sixth path sage mode, his taijitsu would have evenly matched or exceeded Sasuke and EMS. It would have forced Sasuke into summoning susanoo far earlier.

You can say that Naruto was holding back and really fighting defensively and not offensively.

What they could have done differently to make the match look more even? Naruto should have fought in pain sage mode against Sasuke and not have to rely on his clones. It would have looked cooler if it remained 1 on 1.

Ikr. 1v1 fights are best sometimes. Like this time.

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vintage_spiderman

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@princearagorn1: It's no use the Naruto fanbase can't accept their lord and savior being inferior to Sasuke in anything. Though I will say this dunno if it'll makes them feel any better though Sasuke clearly used eyes modes whilst Naruto was in "base" so of course Naruto shouldn't have been able to tag him often if at all like wtf is wrong with people if he kept up Naruto going into any transformation state would obviously lolblitz Sasuke no dif. Which can't happen when they are suppose to roughly equal each other out...

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vintage_spiderman

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Also even excluding dojutsu Sasuke has always been the "genius" who had concentrated more on skill...I mean I guess people forget unlike Naruto Sasuke actually focus on all aspects of fighting weapons, genjutsu, ninjutsu, and taijutsu...you name it.

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PrinceAragorn1

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@vintage_spiderman:

I stopped when I read the rooftop fight wasn't real but tsunade's dream, lol. They did an amazing job with the animation and direction, I'm not going to criticise the fight for at least a week.

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slimj87d

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So a simple fix to making this fight cooler would have been to not have Naruto and his clones fight Sasuke for so long. Naruto should have entered sage mode and made the h2h more interesting, then Sasuke could have started to use Rinnegan abilities, and then Naruto would have to use KCM, and then Sasuke would susanoo and Naruto would have turned into the Fox.

It would have just flowed better that way IMO. But overall the fight wasn't too bad the way it was.

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TheVivas

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There's literally no reason to complain other than being butthurt. Lol

Sasuke is the better in taijutsu, this has been established already in like every fight between the two. and Naruto wasn't "brainwashed" in this fight, get real.

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BatmanPlusJay

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#31  Edited By BatmanPlusJay

@vintage_spiderman: @slimj87d: @thevivas: Already established naruto is equal to, or better than Sasuke in taijutsu up in my comments above. And Naruto does plan. He has great observation skills and planning. He beat Pain using both of them. He also got Kaguya a few times planning. And Madara, and raikage, and so on and so on. Naruto planned in each and every one of those fights to take them out. Who says Naruto doesn't "plan" his attacks? Who says he's "bad" at taijutsu when I made it perfectly clear in the posts above that Naruto is equal and in sage mode, he is superior. Only reason Sasuke "looks" so good is because of Sharingan. If he didn't use it, and Base Sasuke vs Base Naruto, they would even out.

Not to mention, when Sasuke shot that fireball at Naruto in the manga, Naruto easily dismembered it. But in the anime.. the fireball was pushing him into the ground.. The creators were legit aiming to try and make Sasuke look better when naruto wasn't even taking Sasuke seriously. He was taking him seriesly in the end, but in the beginning and middle? Nope. Naruto still had a counter to everything Sasuke pulled off.

My WHOLE point here is that the taijutsu could have been better. A base Naruto vs an EMS/Rinnegan Sasuke? LOL Lopsided AS ####. If Naruto went into sage mode, he'd have made Sasuke wanna stop the CQC and go into Susano'o earlier on in the fight.

Instead of trying to seem like "OHHH ITS THE NARUTARDS WHO CANT ACCEPT IT" why don't you analyze the fight and know that despite Sasuke going all out and Naruto going 50/50, he STILL couldn't kill him. Just let that sink in a bit.

Ima add this comment to my OP before other non-reading idiots come here and spam "but sasuke is better in taijutsu and everything else while naruto is a scrub and not on his lvl".

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BatmanPlusJay

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#32  Edited By BatmanPlusJay

@slimj87d said:

So a simple fix to making this fight cooler would have been to not have Naruto and his clones fight Sasuke for so long. Naruto should have entered sage mode and made the h2h more interesting, then Sasuke could have started to use Rinnegan abilities, and then Naruto would have to use KCM, and then Sasuke would susanoo and Naruto would have turned into the Fox.

It would have just flowed better that way IMO. But overall the fight wasn't too bad the way it was.

I agree. Should have made naruto hide a clone and let him gather nature energy. But they made him hold back waaay too much.

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the_stegman

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#33  Edited By the_stegman  Moderator

Still think the fight was great.

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TheVivas

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#34  Edited By TheVivas

@batmanplusjay:

Already established naruto is equal to, or better than Sasuke in taijutsu up in my comments above.

No you didn't. You posted a few videos and then said "well here are some of Naruto's fights, so yeah he's better than Sasuke".

Sasuke has always been better and the manga, the actual source material, shows this. It doesn't take a genius to figure that out.

And Naruto does plan. He has great observation skills and planning. He beat Pain using both of them

He didn't win because of his "observation skills", he won because he already had knowledge of every Pain's ability via Katsuyu, the added help of the Toad Sages and three Chief Toads, the fact that Deva Path literally couldn't do anything for the first half of the fight, and the fact that Pain was fighting him with the intent to capture him, not kill him. You know, not fighting all out. Isn't that the reason you hated this fight in the first place, because Naruto wasn't fighting "all out?"

Who says Naruto doesn't "plan" his attacks?

I for sure didn't.

Who says he's "bad" at taijutsu when I made it perfectly clear in the posts above that Naruto is equal and in sage mode, he is superior.

Claiming Sasuke is "better" at taijutsu doesn't mean that Naruto "sucks". That's like saying you're stupid if you score a B on a test instead of an A. Clearly not the case.

And no, you haven't proved that Naruto is better at taijutsu. That's hilarious.

Only reason Sasuke "looks" so good is because of Sharingan. If he didn't use it, and Base Sasuke vs Base Naruto, they would even out.

Having the Sharingan doesn't make you any better at taijutsu. It's still a skill that needs to be practiced, which is why Sasuke was able to copy Lee's movements during the Chunin exams but needed to train his body to actually achieve that level of speed and use Lee's actual moves in a fight.

Not to mention, when Sasuke shot that fireball at Naruto in the manga, Naruto easily dismembered it. But in the anime.. the fireball was pushing him into the ground.. The creators were legit aiming to try and make Sasuke look better when naruto wasn't even taking Sasuke seriously. He was taking him seriesly in the end, but in the beginning and middle? Nope. Naruto still had a counter to everything Sasuke pulled off

Even the manga made Sasuke look superior. This is shown in both the manga and the anime. All you're doing is complaining because Naruto didn't use the moves you wanted him to.

And fighting defensively =/= not taking an opponent seriously.

My WHOLE point here is that the taijutsu could have been better.

No, you're whole point is complaining about how Naruto fought, not that the choreography could have been better.

A base Naruto vs an EMS/Rinnegan Sasuke? LOL Lopsided AS ####.

How does EMS or the Rinnegan make Sasuke's taijutsu better?

And you watched the fight. The were practically even. If it was lopsided "AS ####", Sasuke would have ended the fight in the beginning of their clash instead of having to drag it out.

If Naruto went into sage mode, he'd have made Sasuke wanna stop the CQC and go into Susano'o earlier on in the fight.

Take it up with Kishimoto then. He is the one who wrote the fight in the first place, the animators just take what is already given and established.

Instead of trying to seem like "OHHH ITS THE NARUTARDS WHO CANT ACCEPT IT" why don't you analyze the fight and know that despite Sasuke going all out and Naruto going 50/50, he STILL couldn't kill him. Just let that sink in a bit.

Or you can stop complaining about how the animators animated what was exactly shown in the manga just because you don't like it? Or stop complaining that Kishimoto didn't write the fight the way you wanted him to?

And what is that jab about Sasuke supposed to mean? I like Naruto better than him anyway.

Jumping from argument to the other. Nice strawmans.

Ima add this comment to my OP before other non-reading idiots come here and spam "but sasuke is better in taijutsu and everything else while naruto is a scrub and not on his lvl".

Go right ahead. You're still not going to convince anyone of anything.

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@batmanplusjay: Okay Naruto has decent h2h and physicals, but you really want him in "base" to equal a nigh bloodlusted dojutsu activated Sasuke who already exceeds Naruto in intellect therefore strategy by extension? Hahahaha what is wrong with you guys...just be happy your fox boy can equal all bijuu's power via just natural energy.

It's like you guys can't accept Sage enhanced straight tomoe sharingan with six tomoe rinnegan Sasuke tracking Naruto's plain non sage nor kyuubi infused fist.

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righteous300

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#37  Edited By righteous300

So for this being THE FIGHT, it's pretty disappointing. The editing seems kind of weird and the it doesn't flow as nice as say Kakashi vs Obito. Also can someone explain to me why Sasuke wants to be lonely so bad?

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@righteous300: Nah that isn't the unedited full fight, this is a youtube video where the creator mashed up 48 minutes of fighting into 12 minutes. Go on Kissanime.com if you wanna see the official.

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@righteous300: hey, if that's his thing, who are we to judge him?

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#40  Edited By slimj87d

@vintage_spiderman: I don't know why you keep grouping everyone together as "you guys."

My problem with the fight was that it could have been written better. I don't doubt that Sasuke is better in skill, it's supposed to be what he received from the hermit afterall. But Naruto is physically superior in strength, durability and speed and that makes up for Sasuke talent and eyes. Naruto is the hermit's body afterall.

My problem was that the fight could have just flowed better. At some point, Naruto should have stopped using clones and pushed Sasuke with sage mode. They should have worked themselves up from base forms all way up to their mecha forms. It would have been poetic to see how their careers have actually progressed.

Base Naruto vs base Sasuke.

Baruto uses clones

Sasuke activates ems

Naruto activates sage mode

Sasuke susanoo

Naruto KCM + sale mode

Sasuke perfect susanoo,

Naruto fox mode, etc

I'm not disappointed with the entire fight, as it did followed that order in a way. But I wish Naruto used sage mode to oressure Sasuke more at the beginning of the fight. It would have put every fan of either on their seat. Instead it just looked sloppy to see dozens of Naruto around everywhere.

Overall, it was definitely still fun to watch. Just had more potential.

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Im not even bothered to watch it.

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BatmanPlusJay

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No you didn't. You posted a few videos and then said "well here are some of Naruto's fights, so yeah he's better than Sasuke".

No. I posted a few videos that literally proves Naruto is equal to Sasuke in H2H. Wanna see another? This time it IS Naruto vs Sasuke in H2H.

Loading Video...

Now lemme explain this before you throw a tantrum. Naruto blocks/dodges like 80% of the moves Sasuke pulls off in that taijutsu scene. But since Sasuke has the Sharingan advantage, he will obviously get more hits off. But is Base Naruto fought Base Sasuke and they were just sparring or something, they'd be equal in H2H. My complaint is why did Naruto not take the opportunity to go into sage mode? Naruto could have spawned 10 clones, one of them runs off to gather energy while Sasuke is focused on the ones in front, then when it's back down to 1v1 again, Naruto is in sage mode. That would have made this fight look more equal instead of a base Naruto vs a rinnegan/sharingan Sasuke.

Im gonna edit my OP..again.. because I still feel like I didn't word things right.

Sasuke has always been better and the manga, the actual source material, shows this. It doesn't take a genius to figure that out.

Yeah they always showed Sasuke in fights where it makes him look dope in taijutsu. Naruto the same, just not as much as Sasuke and therefore it is overlooked. Manga never states Sasuke is better than Naruto at taijutsu after the time skip. Naruto surpassed Sasuke after the Pain arc.

He didn't win because of his "observation skills", he won because he already had knowledge of every Pain's ability via Katsuyu, the added help of the Toad Sages and three Chief Toads, the fact that Deva Path literally couldn't do anything for the first half of the fight, and the fact that Pain was fighting him with the intent to capture him, not kill him. You know, not fighting all out. Isn't that the reason you hated this fight in the first place, because Naruto wasn't fighting "all out?"

Even if she wasn't there, there would have been a moment where Naruto does realize "He can't use Almighty Push back-to back" Naruto took help when he could have, if they weren't there the fight would have lasted longer but Naruto still would have eventually won. Pain was going all out. He was even willing to stab and staple Naruto to the floor. So why wouldn't he go "all out" in that taijutsu scene? It's a perfect opportunity to try and capture Naruto while he isn't in sage mode anymore. Of course he'd go all out to seize that moment. And yeah I was pissed at this fight in the first place because Naruto was holding back waay too much. You know, I made a title..like those big bold titles at the top(not the thread titles, the headers I added) you'd know I said "The things I said here is out of anger" and I eventually edited the thread because when I'm angry I sometimes don't think rationally.

Claiming Sasuke is "better" at taijutsu doesn't mean that Naruto "sucks". That's like saying you're stupid if you score a B on a test instead of an A. Clearly not the case.

True.

And no, you haven't proved that Naruto is better at taijutsu. That's hilarious.

He's better in sage mode. Yes. But in base vs base Naruto v Sasuke?(No sharingans or anything) They're equals. But we have yet to see a spar/fight between the two where Sasuke doesn't use sharingan.

Having the Sharingan doesn't make you any better at taijutsu. It's still a skill that needs to be practiced, which is why Sasuke was able to copy Lee's movements during the Chunin exams but needed to train his body to actually achieve that level of speed and use Lee's actual moves in a fight.

It does make you better at taijutsu. That's like saying "if a very average MMA fighter had the ability to predict someone's moves before they do it, they won't be better at fighting" They damn sure will. They'd be OP. It does make you better at taijutsu but no, it does not make you obtain any more skill than you have at it.

Even the manga made Sasuke look superior. This is shown in both the manga and the anime. All you're doing is complaining because Naruto didn't use the moves you wanted him to.

Kind of makes sense. It's like watching a superbowl and the team you're rooting for had a nice opportunity to pass the touchdown.. but they're like... nah.. LIKE WTF XD

And fighting defensively =/= not taking an opponent seriously.

Point taken. Naruto is fighting defensively and not using his power to its full potential. Only in moments where his life is at risk. Naruto got serious after the Indra Arrow clashed with Naruto's Rasenshurikens. Any time before that, he was for some reason eating punches when he didn't have to.

No, you're whole point is complaining about how Naruto fought, not that the choreography could have been better.

Uhm.. by "the taijutsu in this fight" I wasn't speaking about choreography. I was speaking about Naruto. Kishimoto made him hold back too much.

How does EMS or the Rinnegan make Sasuke's taijutsu better?

Rinnegan doesn't. Sharingan does though. And its obviously does because you know what someone will do before the even do it.. how the hell doesn't make you better at fighting? You can react to things the opponent does before they even execute it.

And you watched the fight. The were practically even. If it was lopsided "AS ####", Sasuke would have ended the fight in the beginning of their clash instead of having to drag it out.

Nah, it was lopsided. Just cause Naruto didn't die doesn't mean "WELP IT'S EVEN!". Naruto was fighting but he was fighting mainly just so he can stay alive and counter the moves Sasuke was pulling off. Then for whatever reason, idk why, but after that clash Naruto got serious. And used his clones efficiently.

Take it up with Kishimoto then. He is the one who wrote the fight in the first place, the animators just take what is already given and established.

Not worth talking to him about. And Ik what you're gonna say next.. "WHY COMPLAIN THEN?". Because complaining is literally what everyone does. They have a problem with something, they complain and depending on what it is they might do something about it. You too. Complaining is one of those natural things that's just in human nature and makes the world go round.

Or you can stop complaining about how the animators animated what was exactly shown in the manga just because you don't like it? Or stop complaining that Kishimoto didn't write the fight the way you wanted him to?

Or you can stop complaining about me complaining.

And what is that jab about Sasuke supposed to mean? I like Naruto better than him anyway.

.....k...?

Jumping from argument to the other. Nice strawmans.

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Go right ahead. You're still not going to convince anyone of anything.

Too bad for you I already have. Lmao.

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@batmanplusjay: Looks like someone doesn't know what that green button that says "Reply" does.

No. I posted a few videos that literally proves Naruto is equal to Sasuke in H2H. Wanna see another? This time it IS Naruto vs Sasuke in H2H.

No. You didn't.

You posted a video and said "Here's Naruto fighting. He's better than Sasuke."

I've already seen their final fight. Sasuke was better in taijutsu.

Now lemme explain this before you throw a tantrum.

You made a whole thread dedicated to how much you disliked Naruto's fighting in their battle. If anyone has thrown a tantrum, it's you.

Naruto blocks/dodges like 80% of the moves Sasuke pulls off in that taijutsu scene. But since Sasuke has the Sharingan advantage, he will obviously get more hits off.

Good, you know how to watch a video and describe what you watched.

But is Base Naruto fought Base Sasuke and they were just sparring or something, they'd be equal in H2H.

That is based on absolutely nothing.

My complaint is why did Naruto not take the opportunity to go into sage mode?

Because at this point he still needs to stand still to gather Nature energy?

Naruto could have spawned 10 clones, one of them runs off to gather energy while Sasuke is focused on the ones in front, then when it's back down to 1v1 again, Naruto is in sage mode.

Because that's not how Naruto fights.

If we're talking "theoreticals", why didn't Sasuke use the Rinnegan's Preta Path any other time during the fight instead of the end? Why didn't he teleport Naruto into his attack, like he did with Madara? Why didn't he teleport Naruto's two Rasenshuriken back at Naruto, or make him switch places with them right before they collided with his Indra's Arrow? Why didn't he try to Genjutsu Naruto?

You think Naruto was the only one in that fight that was held back by PIS?

Im gonna edit my OP..again.. because I still feel like I didn't word things right.

Why don't you just edit the title from "Naruto and Sasuke's last fight dissapointed me" to "Naruto's fighting against Sasuke dissapointed me"?

Yeah they always showed Sasuke in fights where it makes him look dope in taijutsu. Naruto the same, just not as much as Sasuke and therefore it is overlooked. Manga never states Sasuke is better than Naruto at taijutsu after the time skip. Naruto surpassed Sasuke after the Pain arc.

1) Sasuke isn't better because he looks "flashier", he's better because his skill is better.

2) Sasuke was always above Naruto in taijutsu. Naruto has done nothing post-timeskip to say that he is now suddenly more skilled than Sasuke.

Even if she wasn't there, there would have been a moment where Naruto does realize "He can't use Almighty Push back-to back" Naruto took help when he could have, if they weren't there the fight would have lasted longer but Naruto still would have eventually won.

If Katsuyu weren't there, Naruto wouldn't have come up with any of his strategies. That's one of the reasons you claimed he was such a great fighter, because of his ability to make strategies.

Pain was going all out. He was even willing to stab and staple Naruto to the floor. So why wouldn't he go "all out" in that taijutsu scene?

No, the whole fight he wasn't going all out. Stabbing someone to prevent them from moving doesn't mean you;re going all out. In fact, the simple fact that Pain didn't kill Naruto then should be enough to suggest he wasn't going all out. Naruto only won because of all the reasons I layed out earlier, as well as plot. Otherwise Pain would have beaten him solidly.

You know, I made a title..like those big bold titles at the top(not the thread titles, the headers I added) you'd know I said "The things I said here is out of anger" and I eventually edited the thread because when I'm angry I sometimes don't think rationally.

And then you attacked Aragorn above and claimed he was biased.

But in base vs base Naruto v Sasuke?(No sharingans or anything) They're equals. But we have yet to see a spar/fight between the two where Sasuke doesn't use sharingan.

If we have yet to see them fight the way you're outlining, then how can you claim them to be equals?

It does make you better at taijutsu. That's like saying "if a very average MMA fighter had the ability to predict someone's moves before they do it, they won't be better at fighting" They damn sure will. They'd be OP. It does make you better at taijutsu but no, it does not make you obtain any more skill than you have at it.

Complete nonsense. If I know what someone is going to do before they do it, that doesn't make me any more skilled. Skill is something separate.

It's not that hard to understand, seriously.

Uhm.. by "the taijutsu in this fight" I wasn't speaking about choreography. I was speaking about Naruto. Kishimoto made him hold back too much.

You need to specify whose taijutsu you were disappointed by. And that's Naruto's character, he never wanted to kill Sasuke so of course he's going to hold back.

And Kishimoto also poorly wrote Sasuke using his abilities. It's not solely Naruto.

Rinnegan doesn't. Sharingan does though. And its obviously does because you know what someone will do before the even do it.. how the hell doesn't make you better at fighting? You can react to things the opponent does before they even execute it.

You're still misinterpreting the question. The Sharingan makes you better at fighting but doesn't make your taijutsu any better.

It's not rocket science.

Nah, it was lopsided. Just cause Naruto didn't die doesn't mean "WELP IT'S EVEN!". Naruto was fighting but he was fighting mainly just so he can stay alive and counter the moves Sasuke was pulling off.

Nope, if it was indeed lopsided, Sasuke would have ended it. And that's not at all what Naruto did. I think you need to watch the fight again.

Not worth talking to him about. And Ik what you're gonna say next.. "WHY COMPLAIN THEN?". Because complaining is literally what everyone does. They have a problem with something, they complain and depending on what it is they might do something about it. You too. Complaining is one of those natural things that's just in human nature and makes the world go round.

You can complain all you want, but your reasons have to have merit. Naruto has never been better than Sasuke at taijutsu, and posting videos without any analysis whatsoever or in-depth breakdown of the moves used by Naruto doesn't make him automatically better.

And if you knew Sasuke and his abilities, you should know that he clearly could have done a whole lot more than what he did.

Or you can stop complaining about me complaining.

Great response.

Too bad for you I already have. Lmao.

Too bad for you it won't help. Lmao

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me watching this thread go:

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@slimj87d said:

@vintage_spiderman: I don't know why you keep grouping everyone together as "you guys."

My problem with the fight was that it could have been written better. I don't doubt that Sasuke is better in skill, it's supposed to be what he received from the hermit afterall. But Naruto is physically superior in strength, durability and speed and that makes up for Sasuke talent and eyes. Naruto is the hermit's body afterall.

My problem was that the fight could have just flowed better. At some point, Naruto should have stopped using clones and pushed Sasuke with sage mode. They should have worked themselves up from base forms all way up to their mecha forms. It would have been poetic to see how their careers have actually progressed.

Base Naruto vs base Sasuke.

Baruto uses clones

Sasuke activates ems

Naruto activates sage mode

Sasuke susanoo

Naruto KCM + sale mode

Sasuke perfect susanoo,

Naruto fox mode, etc

I'm not disappointed with the entire fight, as it did followed that order in a way. But I wish Naruto used sage mode to oressure Sasuke more at the beginning of the fight. It would have put every fan of either on their seat. Instead it just looked sloppy to see dozens of Naruto around everywhere.

Overall, it was definitely still fun to watch. Just had more potential.

I completely agree. That would have made it so much more fun.

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@batmanplusjay: And again you miss the reply button. Let me guess, afraid huh?

Yeah.. because his ability to predict moves before his opponent even does totally isn't the reason why.

He's not better. He just knows what'll happen before it even comes.

Seriously, a three year old would be able to grasp the point I'm making, The fact that you can't says something.

Shame, you can't analyze the fight for yourself and needs someone to hold your hand to show it to you.

I can, considering I could analyze their fight without anyone holding my hand while you can't.

And why isn't it? Why can't you prove otherwise.

Why is your baseless hypothesis based on nothing? Because you don't have any evidence to back it up other than your blatant bias towards Naruto.

Show me a time Sasuke has outdone Naruto, base vs Base in taijutsu without sharingan. You can't.

Any of their spars we see in flashbacks when they were kids.

Other than that, Sasuke doesn't fight without using Sharingan, which is why you can't claim that Naruto is better than him at taijutsu without it. See how evidence works?

Because the only reason he does it because of his sharingan. Don't act like an idiot and pretend Sharingan isn't the reason he's winning those taijutsu fights

The only one acting like an idiot is the one who thinks knowing a future event makes a person more skilled.

Am I... am I talking to someone who's never watch Naruto before?

Watched it and read it multiple times. Which is why I know more than you.

Because Naruto has proven.. even in this fight.. he can put out a clone to gather nature energy to get him into sage mode while he keeps Sasuke busy.

And how does that in any way disprove what I said? He still needs to stay still, clone or not, to gather Nature energy.

Instead of trying to sound like you actually know the series, make sure you can read a sentence first.

Since you have some sort of issue with videos, lemme ask you first.. want me to show you some videos or Naruto using clones to get him into sage mode and fight? I have 3 different fights on the top of my head right now. All you gotta do is ask.

Yes, why don't you do that. Show me in three different fights Naruto immediately making a clone to go and gather Nature energy for him. So me three different fights where that's the very first thing he does against his opponent.

Because for one, Sasuke can't teleport a jutsu as massive as those two Rasenshuriken in such little time. Let alone one while they're both going full speed through the air.

1) He teleported his Susanoo. He can definitely teleport an attack that is smaller than an object he already teleported.

2) He can easily teleport those attacks. All he has to do is see them.

Looks like you don't even know what Sasuke can do, yet you're still crying about Naruto not using his abilities to the fullest. Great job.

You say that alot. Yet you proved nothing. We have yet to see Naruto and Sasuke go head to head in an EQUAL battle of taijutsu. It's literally like me saying "lmao naruto is better in taijutsu cuz he beating sasuke up" despite Naruto in sage mode and Sasuke not even using his sharingan. Of course they're gonna be better, they're in a state that isn't their base and gives them the advantage in whatever category(ies).

This is honestly the weakest argument I've ever seen for a Naruto fanboy. Complaining about Sasuke using his Sharingan is basically the same thing as me complaining about Naruto using Nine Tails chakra.

You haven't done anything to prove Naruto is better besides posting a video and saying "Yeah Naruto is better because I say so". You're debating is a joke, tbh. Until they actually do fight in your so-called "EQUAL" battle of taijutsu, you can't make the claim that Naruto is better. Especially since you've so easily proven how biased you are.

LOL!! What does "Post timeskip" have to do with this?

You're trying to debate post-timeskip characters, and you're telling me what does post-timeskip have to do with this? Jesus Christ...

If Goku was to fight fraiza you don't say "NO!! Goku is weaker because remember BEFORE that timeskip Goku almost lost and wasn't as strong?" because it obviously shows development to every character in the timeskip

Do you seriously not know that post means "after"? Post-timeskip is after Naruto trained with Jiraiya. And if you could actually read instead of gloss over and go back to bitching, you'd have noticed that I said "Naruto has done nothing post-timeskip (that means after his training) to suggest that he's suddenly better than Sasuke at taijutsu."

Go back to elementary and learn to read.

One os Naruto's was taijutsu. Sasuke's was not. He just learned Chirdori Nagashi and Kirin since the 3 years. And after the timeskip it showed Naruto training with Jariyah, a legendary Sannin to teach him taijutsu. And when Naruto comes back, he knows taijutsu. He's used it on multiple occasions to show he is at least Sasuke's equal in it.

This is rich. So now you're claiming Sasuke didn't train in taijutsu because......what? Because we didn't get a filler episode that showed him doing so?

Again, your knowledge, or lack of, of the series is laughable.

He created a strategy to beat the Raikage.

Which he only did with prior knowledge. The same thing he had against Pain.

He created strategies to get Kaguya.

Like what? Reverse Sexy jutsu? Waiting until she was in front of him to break out of the ice to attack her? Those aren't strategies, let alone good ones.

He created strategies to beat Kakashi.

With prior knowledge. The same thing he had against Pain.

He created strategies to beat Gaara

And? He's not a master strategist because of that. These examples are getting worse and worse with each one. You really need to learn what you're talking about.

He created strategies to beat Pain

Because he already had previous knowledge.

Funny how almost every single instance of Naruto creating strategies involves him already knowing information on his opponent.

He had strategies to bring out of Blood Prison and beat the Warden's monster son..

Blood Prison isn't even Canon.

LOL how embarrassing.

Only difference is, someone was there and said "Pain has this and that" and left it all up to Naruto to finish the job.. WITH HIS STRATEGIES.

Yeah, all those strategies wouldn't have even been thought up if Naruto didn't know the information he needed beforehand.

Try harder. This is just getting easier and easier.

You literally can't prove anything you say while I can. I named moments where it shows Naruto's development in taijutsu, I even showed you

You haven't proven a single thing. All you've done is whine, ignore common sense, and repeatedly misunderstand a basic, fifth-grade conecpt.

It's funny that you think you've proven something, though.

You just throw out claims as if they're facts. If you don't show any facts or anything to back up the bullcrap you put into your comments, then don't bother commenting at all. I find it amazing how you supposedly "watched the series" and yet you can't remember Naruto out-smarting pretty much everyone he comes across. Deidara and Pain included.

1) Naruto and Sasuke have never fought when Sasuke didn't use the Sharingan (when they're older), yet you think that not having evidence to prove that Naruto is better than Sasuke actually means that Naruto is better than Sasuke. You have no proof to back your bullcrap comments, yet try to insult mine? And lol at a "hypothesis". You probably don't even know what that means, considering you don't even know what "post-timeskip" means.

2) I find it amazing how you claim to watch the series but can get so many simple things wrong. It's astounding.

Nope. Plot has nothing to do with this since the fight makes complete sense.

So plot has nothing to do with why the main character of the series beat a clearly superior opponent.

This debate is probably one of the stupidest ones I've had on this site.

Naruto outsmarted Pain. Plain and simple.

Let's just forget all the "whys" and "hows" huh? Sure we can go with that. Sasuke also beat Itachi, but we don't need to know that Itachi was going blind, sick and dieing, and purposely threw the fight to rid Sasuke of Orochimaru and give him Amaterasu? Let's just forget all of that.

Stabbing through their damn body to stick'em to the floor is going serious.

Your kindergarten-level of understanding of events is hilarious.

It's like saying if someone gets into a fight at school, they're not serious because by your logic since they're not trying to kill, they're not serious

That's the worst analogy. People at school aren't trying to kill each other. Ninjas in Naruto are.

I can literally feel my brain cells dieing after reading what you're writing.

And wasn't it you who said "just because he isn't tryin to kill doesn't mean he doesn't take him seriously"? Yes. You did. Stop contradicting yourself.

Lol you're clearly confused. What's wrong, are these words too big for you?

I never said Pain didn't take Naruto seriously, I said he wasn't going all out, i.e. he wasn't trying to kill him. That's completely different than Naruto not taking Sasuke seriously.

Naruto was fighting on the defensive. Pain was holding back because he needed Naruto alive. If you can't see the difference between those two situations, you shouldn't even be debating here.

Called a hypothesis backed up by facts.

What facts? When has Naruto fought Sasuke without the Sharingan and won? Unless you can show me an instance of that, you're "facts" are nothing but a fanboy's biased opinion.

What you're doing is just asking questions simply because the series doesn't state in bold "NARUTO AND SASUKE ARE EQUALS IN TAIJUTSU"

No, what I'm doing is stating what the manga has already shown us: that Sasuke is better at taijutsu. It's not my fault your pea-sized brain can't comprehend that.

You literally never had any kind of fact to back you up since we debated.

Lol everything I said has been shown in the manga. Don't believe me? Try reading it.

I did and proved with evidence why Naruto is equal to Sasuke in taijutsu and you just say "no". Like.. WHAT..?

What facts? You haven't provided anything. You posted videos with nothing but "here's a video, Naruto is better".

Even your hypothesis, which you claim is backed up by facts, isn't backed up by facts. If they were, show me a scan or video of Naruto beating Sasuke in taijutsu without Sasuke using the Sharingan. You already said you can't because they haven't fought like that.

Stop contradicting yourself.

Of course it doesn't make you more skilled.

So after three replies of saying "Having the Sharingan makes you more skilled at taijutsu" you're all of a sudden jumping ship and now trying to claim that it doesn't make you more skilled?

Pick a damn side and stick with it.

Sasuke ISN'T more skilled. His eyes just allow him to know things ahead of time and he can react to it because he knows it's coming. If you know someone will do something before they even do it. you will 99.9999% of the time prevent them from even doing it.. RIGHT?! And because of that Sasuke is winning.

If Sasuke knew what was going to happen before it happened, why was Bee able to tag him? Why was Danzo able to grab him neck and place a seal on him? Why was Madara able to grab him with Limbo and stab him? Why was Juubito able to grab his forehead and almost kill him? Why was Darui able to land a water jutsu against him? Why was Kakashi able to kick him?

I thought you said that 99.9999% of the time he would prevent them from even doing it, so what happened in all those above mentioned times?

You know what, don't answer that. I can only take so many headaches in one day.

I KNOW RIGHT?! And for some reason you're acting like a complete idiot. Maybe you are. Idk. It's amazing how you act like knowing something will happen before it does and having a very wide window to prevent it from happening has nothing to do with Sasuke beating Naruto in taijutsu. You're a complete idiot..

> throws a tantrum because Kishi didn't write the final fight the way he wanted

> gets called out on his bitching because his reasons are nothing but butthurt fanboy reasons

> can't back up his "reasons" when confronted about the,

> resorts to calling names

Didn't know I was dealing with a five year old.

No, he didn't. He did great with Sasuke. He made naruto hold back too much.

If the fact that you thought the Sasuke vs Naruto rooftop scene was from a dream before wasn't an indication that you have no idea what you're talking about, this all but seals the deal.

That is the dumbest....sigh...... I said that already..you literally just reiterated what I said.... and making someone better at fighting DOES make them better than their opponent who doesn't have the sharingan(unless they're in a sage mode)... RIGHT? It's like I'm teaching a kindergarten class.. with 1 student in it.

Your retorts would make sense if you actually had any idea what you were talking about. You don't.

DAMN RIGHT IT'S NOT ROCKET SCIENCE TO YOU. IT'S WORSE! IT'S LIKE TRYING TO COUNT TO INFINITY FOR YOU. You're a complete idiot. Please don't comment back. I dont wanna deal with this stupidity.

Good job, you scaled back your original meme with a different gif.

I've had some stupid debates in the past, but this one easily takes the cake. I honestly feel like I got dumber just by reading what you were writing. Please do me and everyone else a favor and don't reply in this thread again.

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LpnQ

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HONESTLY

throughout the fight i was thinking "Ems with rinnegan, Susasano infused with all juubi and s06p powers."

Still looses.

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ValarMelkor

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This fight was great. Honestly this is probably my favorite fight in the series now, definitely in top 3 at least. Way better than the manga's version.

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BlackLegRaph

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The fight was okay. I enjoyed the smaller scale stuff more than the huge destructive blast modes.

I'm just waiting for the series to end at this point.