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Posted by StrongerThanRin (338 posts) 1 month, 10 days ago

Poll: Naruto and Sasuke are continent busters confirmed? (45 votes)

sure why not 62%
idk...is this even canon? 18%
friggin bs 20%
No Caption Provided

from a Naruto novel, takes place after war arc

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#51 Posted by Tetsukage (1950 posts) - - Show Bio

@ourmanuel: also GWRE is continental at the very least.

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#52 Posted by ourmanuel (10504 posts) - - Show Bio

@ourmanuel: yes I was him to prove it was is strongest attack, I can prove it wasn't.

Fine then, prove it wasn’t

And what’s your reasoning behind GWRE being continental, and do you think it’s consistent with the series?

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#53 Posted by Tetsukage (1950 posts) - - Show Bio

@ourmanuel:

The attack at vote was all Kurama, Naruto had zero chakra himself, and that was only 50% Kurama. So that means it couldn't have been his strongest attack. Plus Kurama straight up say's "maybe I gained too much" indicating that they're trying to match Sasuke not over power him.

It split the moon in half, it's continental and yes it's consistent.

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#54 Posted by HitTheAssasin (7876 posts) - - Show Bio

He might be, but Shikamaru would realistically have no way of knowing this, so I wouldn't take his word for it as the definitive piece of evidence regarding the matter.

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#55 Posted by ourmanuel (10504 posts) - - Show Bio

@hittheassasin: shikamaru’s word is pretty much author’s intent, so we can’t really dismiss it that way.

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#56 Posted by Tetsukage (1950 posts) - - Show Bio

@hittheassasin: he could know the same way they knew how much busting the moon would take, or how they knew how much chakra the ten tails had.

They could have measured it for all we know.

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#57 Posted by Azureus (2499 posts) - - Show Bio

@ourmanuel:

why isn’t it? That attack didn’t even reach the ground, meaning it had like small country AOE at best.

But that wasn't even an attack, it was a collision and the power of both techniques reduced each other, hence why they even survived despite being caught in the explosion. Also how is it only small country in AoE? The land was being uprooted countries away from the shockwave alone. That's multi-country.

And Naruto got depleted trying to contain momoshiki’s TBB yet that wasn’t even close to continental or even country....

Momoshiki hit him with a supercharged bijuu dama. Force increases when it is applied over a smaller area and Naruto essentially concentrated a large island level attack into an area the size of a stadium (himself) and was only knocked out. That's not an anti feat either seeing that Sasuke is the one who shielded Boruto and Sarada from the attack. Naruto only contained it and by doing so left himself vulnerable.

Based on that, they simply can’t be able to bust a continent.

None of these are even anti-feats.

And for obvious reasons, potency doesn’t matter here.

Wasn't going to mention potency. I'm only interested in knowing why these things are even anti-feats? I don't know why people are getting worked up over this statement as it's been known for years now Naruto God-tiers are continental by feats and statements.

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#58 Posted by zgtfreak (1395 posts) - - Show Bio

@sungsam: Neither of your views are really wrong though. Because I've seen debaters who flip flop between the two positions of standards.. Depending on self convenience.

Sorry, but feats only/hyper featism is objectively wrong; you can poke an infinite amount of holes in that logic.

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#59 Edited by Sungsam (2925 posts) - - Show Bio

@zgtfreak said:

@sungsam: Neither of your views are really wrong though. Because I've seen debaters who flip flop between the two positions of standards.. Depending on self convenience.

Sorry, but feats only/hyper featism is objectively wrong; you can poke an infinite amount of holes in that logic.

I think, if you ask me, there is a time and place for being conservative or liberal on the Hyper-Featism vs Liberal Statementism. If you ask me, I'm the centrist on this issue.

Here is an instance when Hyper-Featism is reasonably applied that I think even you would agree with.

When Morrison said that Hypertime (which is just a 5-Dimensional construct) contains every fiction that exists (and he did say that many times.). No matter what your opinion is on Hyper-Featism and such, the normal debater is not gonna believe that statement. Nooooo waaaaaaay. Unless we've seen that Anti-Monitor (who is only almost Baseline Multiversal since he destroyed Infinite Universes slowly) is capable of destroying Beyonder/Crimson King/Featherine level beings. The feats and the statements on the construct and how DC's Multiverse works (even if you agree with Crossover meta) already debunk such a ridiculous notion.

Morrison is so uneducated on the Cosmology sizes of other fictions, that he is basically arguing an Aircraft Carrier will fit in a small box by this logic. That is when Hyper-Featism against Statements should be used.

When something is outlandishly stupid, that's when Hyper-Featism must seriously come into play. Especially when you are arguing against Metafiction wackos. If a statement is clearly wrong on its ground for many reasons, it has to be countered with Hyper-featism.

I hate Hyper-Featism when it is applied against credible and not-proven-to-be-wrong character and writer statements. I only apply Hyper-Featism in very very rare and certain circumstances where it is needed.

But not casually like what's going on in this thread. I just think it is applied way too many times on like even normal harmless instances like what's going on in this thread.

Thus. I think Hyper-Featism should only be used on a rare few occasions where it does make sense without arguing from incredulity, to use it. Sometimes, it gets abused to the point of arguing from incredulity. Which is really harmful and divides the values of our debate community.

I think I do lean far more to Statementism. Give it take, I'm 80% Statement and 20% Featist on the average issue of a debate I happen to bump into. Perhaps.

The issue however, is that some debaters are in fact lying about what they claim to believe. They will switch between the two positions on different threads depending on who they want to win on the situation at hand. Which is very dishonest.

Sometimes, I think we should have a label for every debater on their belief of Hyper-Featism vs Statementism on all forums. So we can identify the values of our debaters better. And to avoid the hypocrisies.

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#60 Edited by zgtfreak (1395 posts) - - Show Bio

@sungsam: See... I think feats and statements are both valid, but if a statement and a feat contradict each other, then the feat takes precedence since it is visually proven, or if the statement is fundamentally invalid, I.E. above omnipotence, controls all of fiction, ect.

My problem with "Feats only" people is that they disregard any statement entirely since there is no feat of it, which should be considered an objectively invalid form of reasoning. By that logic, all novels should be banned from debates since novels only consist of statements with no visual feat.

So overall we pretty much agree.

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#61 Edited by Adi_Frost (576 posts) - - Show Bio

@ourmanuel: "This implies that he meant they could do it in one shot rather than over time."

Well, I am not sure if they could do it one shot. Though Shikamaru clearly means that they can destroy it but that doesn't mean they will destroy it over a large span of time. It could be anywhere from one shotting to easily able to destroy it in a small time.

"it also implies that each of the 5 great nations would be at least the size of the USA."

No Caption Provided

Clearly they look to be around those sizes.

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#62 Edited by TheOriginalOne (3970 posts) - - Show Bio

@adi_frost: But what shika said doesn't mean they can destroy a continent in a small amount of time either.... And given their feats, one shot is out of the question. And nowhere does Shika says they can do it easily.

What you are saying to ourmanuel can be applied to your argument as well.

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#63 Posted by Galactic_1000 (5584 posts) - - Show Bio

Good.

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#64 Posted by ourmanuel (10504 posts) - - Show Bio

@azureus said:

@ourmanuel:

But that wasn't even an attack, it was a collision and the power of both techniques reduced each other,

That’s not how explosions in fiction or naruto work. That’s not even how they work IRL.

I didn’t even think I’d have to say this.

Also how is it only small country in AoE? The land was being uprooted countries away from the shockwave alone.

Scans?

That's multi-country.

Even if it happened as you say, that’s still not multi country busting.

Momoshiki hit him with a supercharged bijuu dama. Force increases when it is applied over a smaller area and Naruto essentially concentrated a large island level attack into an area the size of a stadium (himself) and was only knocked out.

Hmm, this is a very interesting opinion, especially coming from you.

But oh well, I can understand it. But still, this would barely look like small-average country level, even considering this physics you’re using.

None of these are even anti-feats.

None of them are country+ either, not to talk of multi continental like shikamaru’s statement implies.

Wasn't going to mention potency. I'm only interested in knowing why these things are even anti-feats? I don't know why people are getting worked up over this statement as it's been known for years now Naruto God-tiers are continental by feats

The only people who fit that bill are the juubi-jins by scaling to hagoromo’s feat of creating the moon.

Naruto and sasuke don’t count based on what they’ve shown and the fact that they’re obviously weaker.

and statements.

What other statements do either of them have to push them to even continental, let alone multicontinetal?

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#65 Posted by the_wspanialy (3909 posts) - - Show Bio

Why there is no "It's been obvious for years" option in the OP?

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#66 Posted by Azureus (2499 posts) - - Show Bio

@ourmanuel:

That’s not how explosions in fiction or naruto work. That’s not even how they work IRL.

I didn’t even think I’d have to say this.

Now this is where you lost me. It's a common trope in fiction where 2 attacks cancel each other out. We've literally seen attacks intended to kill, only end up stunning or injuring because the other party responded with an attack of equal power that reduces the power behind the other oncoming blow.

But sure, let's forget that it was explictly stated that Naruto would've been blown away had he not countered and just say his attack added even more power into explosion, and he survived it intact despite the weaker one being more than enough to take him out.

Scans?

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

Even if it happened as you say, that’s still not multi country busting.

It didn't say it was multi-country busting, I was responding to the AoE claim, which it defintely is.

None of them are country+ either, not to talk of multi continental like shikamaru’s statement implies.

Shikamaru's statement was continental....

But oh well, I can understand it. But still, this would barely look like small-average country level, even considering this physics you’re using.

The point is, it's not an anti feat. Seeing as how Naruto survived it when he contained it within the stadium, and how Sasuke outright tanked it when protecting the kids.

I agree there are no feats putting them on continental DC.

The only people who fit that bill are the juubi-jins by scaling to hagoromo’s feat of creating the moon.

Toneri does as well...and all the Juubi jins barring Hagoromo himself are comparable to War Arc Naruto and Sasuke alone. DC wise, probably not.

Naruto and sasuke don’t count based on what they’ve shown...

Fair enough.

and the fact that they’re obviously weaker.

Naruto and Sasuke as of right now would individually body anyone that doesn't have an Otsutsuki in their name.

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#67 Posted by DeathandGrim (4807 posts) - - Show Bio

Times like this really make me think about how this series was originally about ninjas and not Saiyans

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#68 Edited by SocaJunkie (8349 posts) - - Show Bio

This isn’t hyperbolic given the contextual severerity so...yeah.

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#69 Posted by FaradaySloth (8479 posts) - - Show Bio

Times like this really make me think about how this series was originally about ninjas and not Saiyans

The best part is going back to the Sarutobi vs Orochimaru and think to yourself "This was supposed to Kage Level Combat, the highest and strongest known in the series..."

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#70 Posted by Streak619 (7527 posts) - - Show Bio

Moon level

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#71 Edited by TheOneAboveLife (458 posts) - - Show Bio

I can see them being a continent buster, but no way in hell a planet buster.

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#72 Posted by Tetsukage (1950 posts) - - Show Bio

This should be very obvious and the fact that it's 60% who agree shows we have a low-ball problem.

He tanked 2 moon splitting beams...

He created a 🌒

The dude is continental.

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#73 Posted by Streak619 (7527 posts) - - Show Bio

Also, that's my screenshot.

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#74 Posted by GateOfBabylon (3690 posts) - - Show Bio

idk...is this even canon?

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#75 Posted by Helloman (28540 posts) - - Show Bio

Knew it.

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#78 Edited by BatmanPlusJay (3888 posts) - - Show Bio

@faradaysloth: Shikamaru is a created fictional character who's been around Naruto for decades since the war. And who is probably the smartest person in his entire nation.

I don't understand how you can question anything Shikamaru definitively says. I don't know why people question what characters say period if it's informational. If Sasuke were to come out and tell us information we didn't know about(like Kara members having power comparable to Otsutsuki), we don't sit there and question "but how could he even really know" like you're about to question what he knows, a fictional character that writers made, just because he told you something you didn't want to hear.

If authors make characters give us information, or insight to something, the author intends to tell us what we need to know to have a better understanding of what's going on or better understanding of whatever it is we're getting information on. Anyone can argue "Kawaki has been around Naruto for like a week how could he possibly know if he's really much stronger than Delta and controlling the fight like he claims, meanwhile Boruto has been around Naruto since birth and doesn't know shit". But you don't argue that because it defeats the purpose of him giving us information. This logic applied to quite literally every time a character gives us details/info on something.

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#79 Posted by Tetsukage (1950 posts) - - Show Bio

@batmanplusjay: especially when in the war arc they knew exactly how much chakra the Ten tails had, or how the cloud village knew how much chakra was required to bust a moon...

But some how it's not possible for them to know Naruto's limit.

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#81 Posted by FaradaySloth (8479 posts) - - Show Bio

@batmanplusjay:

I don't understand how you can question anything Shikamaru definitively says.

He isn't a source of confirmation.

If Sasuke were to come out and tell us information we didn't know about(like Kara members having power comparable to Otsutsuki), we don't sit there and question "but how could he even really know" like you're about to question what he knows, a fictional character that writers made, just because he told you something you didn't want to hear.

Different scenario. You're comparing Busting tier to abilities of others. Sasuke likely would have known through his journey. Meanwhile, we've seen Naruto at full power before, nothing close to continental busting has ever happened.

If authors make characters give us information, or insight to something, the author intends to tell us what we need to know to have a better understanding of what's going on or better understanding of whatever it is we're getting information on.

Kishimoto said Madara would smash all things in the universe. Unless if the author goes out of his way to confirm a busting tier, we can't rely on vague statements that haven't been proven. Shikamaru saying "he can continent level bust" and yet nothing further is elaborated on is vague and thus unreliable.

Anyone can argue "Kawaki has been around Naruto for like a week how could he possibly know if he's really much stronger than Delta and controlling the fight like he claims, meanwhile Boruto has been around Naruto since birth and doesn't know shit". But you don't argue that because it defeats the purpose of him giving us information. This logic applied to quite literally every time a character gives us details/info on something.

Nothing to do with busting tier.

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#82 Edited by BatmanPlusJay (3888 posts) - - Show Bio

@faradaysloth said:

@batmanplusjay:

He isn't a source of confirmation.

Except he is, for reasons I stated and you ignored. So I'll say it again:

Shikamaru is a created fictional character who's been around Naruto for decades since the war. And who is probably the smartest person in his entire nation.

Different scenario. You're comparing Busting tier to abilities of others. Sasuke likely would have known through his journey.

That's irrelevant. The argument still stands that he is a source of confirmation, probably the best source of confirmation with not only it being author's intent that we know this information, but also that he's been around Naruto for decades since the war. He saw most of what Naruto could do in the war, none of which was continental, yet now he's informing us the much older, adult, Hokage version is easily continental. He is the best source of confirmation.

Meanwhile, we've seen Naruto at full power before, nothing close to continental busting has ever happened.

Full powered war arc Naruto =/= full powered Hokage Naruto. People sure do love to pretend like these two versions of Naruto are the same, despite statements like Shikamaru's stating they're continental. Despite statements from Sasuke stating Momoshiki is stronger than Kaguya. But still, people love to scale him to his 15+ year younger, 17 year old version.

Point is you don't base the strength of this version of Naruto off of a much outdated version of himself just because he has more feats when he was younger than older. Especially when Hokage Naruto hasn't been around for more than a couple years while Shippuden has been around for nearly a decade, and we have statements and some new feats suggesting he is far stronger than what he used to be. That's like saying beginning Shippuden Naruto = eos kid Naruto all because kid Naruto had more feats at that time.

Kishimoto said Madara would smash all things in the universe. Unless if the author goes out of his way to confirm a busting tier, we can't rely on vague statements that haven't been proven.

Shikamaru's statement is anything but vague.

Shikamaru saying "he can continent level bust" and yet nothing further is elaborated on is vague and thus unreliable.

That's not vague, he's telling you what he can do. He doesn't need to go into a rant of exactly how Naruto can perform this feat in order for it to be reliable. The only time statements need to be elaborated a bit more is if we know what level a character stands and the statements don't add up. We don't know where adult Naruto and Sasuke stand as we've yet to see them go all out at full power, therefore statements to further give us insight on where they stand should be taken with certainty since you have absolutely nothing to combat it other than grab old feats from the garbage they did many years ago and pretend that's their cap. That's not how it works.

Nothing to do with busting tier.

It doesn't matter it it's about buster tier or not. It's the simple fact that it's informational and needs to be taken as such since the author intended for it to be that. If I was an author and I intended to get a certain piece of info across to readers by making someone inform us of it, it's not your job as the read to automatically question the character giving us this info just because you don't like it. That's childish as shit.

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#83 Posted by BatmanPlusJay (3888 posts) - - Show Bio

@batmanplusjay: especially when in the war arc they knew exactly how much chakra the Ten tails had, or how the cloud village knew how much chakra was required to bust a moon...

But some how it's not possible for them to know Naruto's limit.

Right. Lmao

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#84 Posted by FaradaySloth (8479 posts) - - Show Bio

@batmanplusjay:

Shikamaru is a created fictional character who's been around Naruto for decades since the war. And who is probably the smartest person in his entire nation.

Just because you're smart doesn't mean what you say about busting tiers is correct.

That's irrelevant.

It isn't actually. The logic you're presenting here is that in any topic, author's statements in 100% true and if characters are shown to be intelligent say a claim it's also 100% true. Everything that has been presented is a vague statement that hasn't been backed up.

The argument still stands that he is a source of confirmation

How?

probably the best source of confirmation with not only it being author's intent that we know this information

How is it author's intent? There is no information given.

but also that he's been around Naruto for decades since the war. He saw most of what Naruto could do in the war, none of which was continental, yet now he's informing us the much older, adult, Hokage version is easily continental.

How though? What has Adult Naruto done in that gap that makes him continental?

He is the best source of confirmation.

He clearly isn't for giving such a vague statement.

Full powered war arc Naruto =/= full powered Hokage Naruto.

True, however, no feats to suggest such a jump in power.

People sure do love to pretend like these two versions of Naruto are the same, despite statements like Shikamaru's stating they're continental. Despite statements from Sasuke stating Momoshiki is stronger than Kaguya.

Are you saying Momoshiki>Kaguya?

But still, people love to scale him to his 15+ year younger, 17 year old version.

Because that has his feats?

Point is you don't base the strength of this version of Naruto off of a much outdated version of himself just because he has more feats when he was younger than older.

Lol, is this for real? In a way, this kind of lowballs Naruto since you're taking out his feats and assuming his strength

Especially when Hokage Naruto hasn't been around for more than a couple years while Shippuden has been around for nearly a decade, and we have statements and some new feats suggesting he is far stronger than what he used to be.

There are no feats close to continent busting.

That's like saying beginning Shippuden Naruto = eos kid Naruto all because kid Naruto had more feats at that time.

If Shippuden was beginning right now we would still use EOS Kid Naruto's feats/and use scaling from EOS Kid Naruto if Naruto was in a fight here on the Vine.

Shikamaru's statement is anything but vague.

All he said was "Naruto and Sasuke are continent busters, we're stronger than your fodder villages, and I'll kill you if you leave" and they never once talked about Naruto and Sasuke continental busting again. That's the definition of vague.

That's not vague, he's telling you what he can do.

Uhhhh this logic makes zero sense

"What food you're going to eat?"

"I'll eat food."

"How fast can you drive"

"I can drive fast"

Saying what you can do can still be vague...

He doesn't need to go into a rant

No one is asking him too. Just for him to elaborate or simply let's just see feats.

of exactly how Naruto can perform this feat in order for it to be reliable. The only time statements need to be elaborated a bit more is if we know what level a character stands and the statements don't add up.

Like this time?

We don't know where adult Naruto and Sasuke stand as we've yet to see them go all out at full power, therefore statements to further give us insight on where they stand should be taken with certainty

So Shikamaru could've said they were thousands of times faster than light and would destroy a solar system by just flexing and we would take it for certain...

since you have absolutely nothing to combat it other than grab old feats from the garbage they did many years ago and pretend that's their cap. That's not how it works.

That's exactly how it works. We know how fast, powerful, durable, etc. Naruto is with this and then act as if it is a minimum.

It doesn't matter it it's about buster tier or not. It's the simple fact that it's informational and needs to be taken as such since the author intended for it to be that.

Proof of serious author intention?

If I was an author and I intended to get a certain piece of info across to readers by making someone inform us of it, it's not your job as the read to automatically question the character giving us this info just because you don't like it. That's childish as shit.

You sound like a total fanboy right now, you do realize that?