Muscles vs. Muscles

In comics, how is it that characters like Colossus (70 tons, last I checked) can go toe-to-toe with characters like Ting (85 tons, last I checked) and fight pretty evenly?

That right there is a 15 ton difference... so how come Colossus has a chance of beating Thing in a fist fight? It isn't like Punisher has a ghost of a chance against Spider-Man in a fair fight.

Because after he was injured by the Marauders, they determined his strength had increased a large amount during Fall of the Mutants. Colossus is now Class 100.

And you never know who can beat whom. Iron Fist took out the Thing with one punch. It was an Iron Fist punch, but still.

And the Thing was the only Earth hero to not be defeated by The Champion, one of the Elders of the Universe. He beat Thor (granted, DQ for a foreign object), Colossus, Sasquatch (Class 100 or better) and some others. Thing was the only one who never went down.

I would say fighting skill comes into play just as in a normal fight. The "better" fighter can win even if he's out classed in strength. There's also mobility. If one can move about faster and get in more licks, the other's bound to get beat. I'm thinking Colossus is faster but I could be wrong.

Kinda like when Rocky took out Drago.

And don't forget the "Eye of the Tiger."

rocky was stronger wasnt he? it was just that drago was taller

Crap, now that song's in my head.

Maybe it all comes down to mass and density. Is organic steel more dense than orange rock?

now that songs in my head

crap

Hate to get off topic but Drago was on steroids. Remeber they had that machine that measured how much punch per square inch or whatever. Drago's kept going up. Also remember he took out Apollo.

Anyways the point is, a skilled fighter can take out someone else, like Ebony said about Iron Fist.

Maybe the stronger both are, the less differences matter? 85 - 70 is more even than 15 - 0. It also probably has to do with fighting skill. A third thing could be that the strength level isn't really set. Do they say (in comics, not just handbooks) how much they're lifting at the time? Can Thing lift exactly 15 tons more than Colossus? And do they always fight at their upper limits? I think their strength levels are pretty flexible and Super Strength is Super Strength. Of course there are levels, Hulk > Colossus > Spiderman > Captain America > Deadpool, but for the most part, characters the same level like Colossus and Thing are pretty much the same.

Yeah, Cap's always kickin' everyone's @$$ 'cause he can fight. You don't see him back down (or at least you didn't before he was killed).

Ignore these if you must. Be warned.

Dig those 80s montages.

nice videos

Again I'm not trying to take away from the topic. This is a good discussion. I just got a little...inspired. Plus RedLAMP loves those clips.

I think it does come down to tactical prowess and fighting ability as compared to brute strength. I mean unless the stronger fighter connects he won't necessarily be able win. Of course the weaker fighter has to come up with a way to take down the brute. This usually is left to the weaker fighter's ability to plan on their feet and then execute that plan in the most effective manner. this can be demonstrated best in my opinion by the way Wolverine manages to beat the Thing and the Human Torch in his series when Hydra brainwashed him.

Then you have someone like Nightcrawler. I don't think he's too strong but with the teleporting, he can give mulitple punches like in X2. They captured it beautifully.

Right on, he hits before they know he's there and he effectively takes out their superior numbers.

speed says:

"rocky was stronger wasnt he? it was just that drago was taller"

Rocky was no way stronger then drago. Remeber the training sequence. And Drago punched harder then any boxer.

It was that Rocky was "Like a piece of iron", as Drago said. Rocky had the heart and mental toughness to keep going even when he was nearly dead. Rocky had heart, and that can make up for lack of strength.

That was a bad ass fight. Foreman was a monster back then. Rope a Dope, classic.

And he had the USA shorts!

GL Bertron says:

"I think it does come down to tactical prowess and fighting ability as compared to brute strength. I mean unless the stronger fighter connects he won't necessarily be able win. Of course the weaker fighter has to come up with a way to take down the brute. This usually is left to the weaker fighter's ability to plan on their feet and then execute that plan in the most effective manner. this can be demonstrated best in my opinion by the way Wolverine manages to beat the Thing and the Human Torch in his series when Hydra brainwashed him."

Yep. Mohamed Ali vs George Forman (the rumble in the jungle). Everyone though Ali would literally be killed fighting the stronger and tougher Foreman. Back then Foreman's persona was the angry, tough monster NOT the cuddle bald apron wearing Forman we love today.

Anyhoo, Ali beat Forman by allowing the bigger man to 'punch himself out'. Ali absorbed the body blows, and when the giant's arms were like jelly, Ali went to town on him, hacking him down like a bean stalk.

awesome remix when u play all 4 videos at the same time

I'm not huge into boxing but I love this pic:

That is one of the most awesome sports pics in history.

True that, few athletes can demand that kind of power and respect in their sports as Ali did in boxing.

Yeah, it just oozes respect.

So sad to see him nowadays. Dang, we're off topic again.

True, but you have to pay your respect to a living legend like Ali.

The thing about Rocky vs. Drago or Ali vs. Foreman is that there's only a 100 or 200 pound strength difference, and that's really minuscule compared to a couple ton difference. Bare in mind, 1 ton is 2,000 pounds.

Hey, I agree that a superior fighter can overcome a stronger fighter, but in comics the "tanks" often trade punches with each other for a couple pages, despite any obvious strength difference.

Look at Spider-Man and Venom, a few good licks from Venom and Spidey isn't looking too good. There's about a 10 or 15 ton difference between them. But if Thing and Colossus went at it, or fight someone stronger than themselves, it'll take a couple pages into the fight before any of them start showing weakness.

Post Edited:2007-03-27 08:27:44

Actually, Venom is more than double Spidey's strength. That's a big deal. And I think the reason Venom can hit Spidey is that the Symbiote nullifies his Spider-Sense. Spidey can hold his own against the Hulk, since the Hulk never hits him.

Again, the 15 ton difference is comparable to the 100 or 200 pound difference. It's a sliding scale. Remember that Colossus can take a hit from the Juggernaut, who is way stronger than the Thing. That's not dealing with their strength, that's dealing with their durability. Colossus is far more durable than many of the Super Strong characters in the Marvel U. Wolverine can penetrate the Thing's hide, and he can cut the Hulk. Those claws don't penetrate Colossus' outside though.

I was mainly using Colossus and Thing as examples, I don't know if they've ever fought before. But I get what you're saying about durability. Colossus and Juggernaut aside, I think most power-houses are able to take roughly as much or a little more than they can dish out.

I figured Venom's strength class was around 20-25 tons, where as Spider-Man is 15 tons (now). Do you really think Venom's beyond the 30 mark?

Post Edited:2007-03-27 10:19:34

DEADPOOL says:

"I was mainly using Colossus and Thing as examples, I don't know if they've ever fought before. But I get what you're saying about durability. Colossus and Juggernaut aside, I think most power-houses are able to take roughly as much or a little more than they can dish out.I figured Venom's strength class was around 20-25 tons, where as Spider-Man is 15 tons (now). Do you really think Venom's beyond the 30 mark?
Post Edited:2007-03-27 10:19:34"

Durability is what I was talking about in the Ali vs Forman example.

On the side, has anyone made a page that just lists every power house character's stength level? We should have a concept page that does that called "Super Stength Weight Class" or something more creative. For example, Buckshot has a page that describes Power Ranking Tiers http://www.comicvine.com/marvel-power-rankings/42221/

I'm a HUGE boxing fan.It's the best sport ever. Someone name a year after 1929.

I'd love to do that. I'll try it out.

Well, there's a lot of discrepancies if we reffer to strenght. Let's see for example Gladiator, maybe one of the top 5 strongest characters in Marvel Universel (or am I way wrong?). He knocked Juggy with just one punch while had a hard time fighting Rogue (I believe Rogue is not stronger than Juggernaut at all!). He also kicked Thing's butt, however lost while fighting The Champion, who, altought wasn't beaten by, but lost fighting the Thing, obviously because of his display of will power. So it all comes to that!, will.

I don't think that there's an exact amount of strenght between characters, sometimes they seem stronger, other times weaker (by the way, I think 15 tons ARE a lot of difference, I can't even lift a 100 pounds!), it all depends of will and... of course, how much would people like to see Colossus taking on The Thing!. I personally would love to see that!.

You also have to take into account the weight of the opponents!

For example, The Thing weights no more than 700 pounds, i believe. While the Colossus weights about 400-500. When strengths are so high, the weight of their opponents is very tiny, so they can beat the snot out of each other and still feel pretty equal. If they got into a lock-up, THEN the strength difference would should up.

1

Exactly. I mentioned mobility before. Speed is also a factor. I just don't see Thing as being too agile. Colossus has seemed more maneuverable. He may not bounce around like Spidey or Nightcrawler but he could move around and give Thing some good licks.

DEADPOOL says:

"I was mainly using Colossus and Thing as examples, I don't know if they've ever fought before. But I get what you're saying about durability. Colossus and Juggernaut aside, I think most power-houses are able to take roughly as much or a little more than they can dish out.I figured Venom's strength class was around 20-25 tons, where as Spider-Man is 15 tons (now). Do you really think Venom's beyond the 30 mark?
Post Edited:2007-03-27 10:19:34"

Venom's listed in the Marvel Handbook as able to lift 60 tons. So, yes, quite a bit more than Spidey.

60 tons????!!! Holy son of all that's holy!!! Has anyone ever seen Venom do anything that would even hint that he's that strong???

Post Edited:2007-03-27 19:39:30

Err, wait. Is that Eddie Brock - Venom who can lift 60 tons, or Mac Gargan - Venom?