I've seen many people say that What If doesn't scale to the main MCU and vice versa. I'm going to prove why that's dumb.
Evidence:
Cap and Peggy did similarly against Batroc. Batroc caught Cap off guard, but after he recovered he performed similarly. In fact, he might even have done better. Batroc took Cap by surprise and didn’t let up. Once Cap took off his helmet he destroyed him. Peggy got hit once, and then the two engaged in a fight for 20 seconds or so with no clear winner. The two are clearly relative.
Loki and Sylvie are evenly matched as well.
When Sylvie asks how Classic Loki was able to make his OP illusion, Loki says "we're a lot stronger than we realize." Loki came about as close to saying that variants scale to each other as you can without blatantly saying "variants scale to each other."
Alligator Loki was also able to bite off president Loki's hand, showing that they are relative.
Scaling What-If to MCU is valid as performance is revealed to be a difference in decision-making, not innate power levels. Specifically in this timeline, the filmmakers consider Thanos to be a jobber so the plot is allowed to go on, whereas in other timelines that would not be the case.
Yes, I'm aware that Raj isn't exactly credible as far as fairly scaling MCU and DCEU is concerned. However, he is correct in his analysis here. Variants do scale. And besides, we’ve been scaling them since 2019. People think that 2014 EG Thanos is the same as 2018 IW Thanos stats wise, despite 2014 Thanos being a variant. I don’t see why we stop doing this because of What If.
Debunking counters
Muh Cap struggled with a 1.5 ton helicopter and Walker struggled with a truck, he's fodder
This is not the case at all. This feat is often used to lowball Cap to a 1.5 tonner. However, that is false. The source for this says OVER 3,000 lbs.
That's a difference of 59.7. That means that Cap could THEORETICALLY lift up to 406 tons. I'm not saying he can actually lift that much, just that it's his theoretical maximum. As for Walker's truck, he has multiple feats better than that.
He could kick a Flag Smasher down a staircase with enough force to crush a metal structure and completely destroy a concrete wall, and bend a metal pipe/bar.
He casually destroyed a concrete trashcan.
Also, going back to the truck, at this point Walker had been in combat and was emotionally compromised, so he could’ve been weaker than usual.
Muh Thanos is weak
For episode 8 Thanos, see above. For episode 2 Thanos, this Thanos had not fought for years. He was very out of shape. On top of this, Proxima hit him with an alien weapon. Corvus’s weapon has cut through vibranium before, so the Black Order’s weapons aren’t weak. As for zombie Thanos, no. Thanos got infected off screen. For all we know, he accidentally got the virus in his mouth, or one of his super powerful minions gave it to him.
Party Thor is way stronger than MCU Thor, who is boulder level
This is dumb too.
All this means is that Kurse can throw a boulder hard enough to hurt Thor. It shattered on impact, so it's not like Thor was hit with sub boulder level force. Thor's Sokovia and Jotunheim feats are on par with what Party Thor did, as is him scaling to Malekith (no, him fighting the Aether doesn't make him universal or even star level. I'm not that dumb).
Black Widow sent Loki flying
Loki was caught off guard and not bracing. He's not immovable. Nat had a ton of momentum and has proven herself to be superhuman by IRL standards in What If and in the main MCU. She didn't harm him.
Maria in MoM was killed by a statue
Towards the end of the fight, Wanda begins draining Maria of energy. You can see her power lessen, and her helmet gets drained. You then see a huge explosion as Wanda releases the energy, weakening her even further.
Explained by this guy better than I ever could.
The importance of medium
What If…? is animated. Most of the MCU is live action. Animation makes it easier to show crazy feats without taking you out of the story, and makes it easier to perform crazy stunts without blowing a huge CGI budget and risking the actors. Therefore, What If…? will have crazy visuals, while the main MCU might not. This doesn’t make the main MCU characters any less strong.
Unless there’s a plausible reason for a power gap (Party Thor’s having an entirely different upbringing), variants should scale. Any other difference in feats could just be due to the show being animated or just inconsistency.
Variants don't scale. This has been discussed on multiple occasions. The best examples of this are MoM Maria. MoM Carter. MoM Xavier. And Defender Strange.
All of these characters have similar powersets to known characters. But they haven't shown any proof that they scale to those characters with those abilities (Xavier being fodder. Carter not showing any skill or strength near her What If? Version who should be far above the nerfed Wanda she fought. And Defender Strange having completely different abilities with his magic. None of which our Strange has shown.)
And that's not even going into Carol vs Phase 1 Thor. Or Sub-Cull level Thanos. Or how Natasha clearly affected Loki with her kick when she sent him flying:
And even in the MCU. She hasn't shown the stats to do that. Since even Captain America couldn't do what she did to OG Loki. And he's above her in stats via feats.
And Loki wasn't bracing of getting ready to tank hits against a serious Cap. He just tanked those hits and then and shrugged them off before he beat him decisively.
And the "Maria was drained" argument has been countered and debunked about a 100 times at this point all we see is Wanda taking away her Binary-mode.
The same mode that Maria was in when she was taken out of the fight by a smaller statue:
And that's before she was "Drained by Wanda".
And the Wanda that did this to her has been confirmed to be HEAVILY weakened due to her variants body limiting her:
She was fighting a confirmed heavily nerfed Wanda. Who was being affected by the crappy 838 variant body:
The above is well known at this point, and explains her below Civil War/Infinity War-level performance. The body crippled her and her powers.
And even after she was "Drained by Wanda" She still survived flying at high speeds. Slamming into the statue with her back first. And falling a long distance and recovering quickly to bring up her arms in an attempt to shield herself.
And this is ignoring how much higher base noob Carol's durability was in Captain Marvel 1, in comparison to Maria in base:
Durability
While being depowered by a Kree dampening device and before learning how to user her abilities Carol could tank a fall from space without damage.
Carol falls from space again, but this time she impacts with such force that she creates a massive crater.
To Captain Marvel reentry heat is nothing more than a light breeze.
And what you're seeing above is a younger, less experienced Carol with only her Captain Marvel feats.
1. The first feat is literally her in base form.
2. And the second one happened when she was clearly in base form as well.
3. And you can clearly see her turning off her Binary mode in the 3rd gif before she punches Yon-Rogg's ship. So she not only handles being out in a place that would kill most characters. But she also survives reentry to some degree.
Yeah. She's definitely above statue-level in base. Lmao.
And the same crippled Wanda that killed Maria, managed to consistently react to Maria's blasts after they were fired:
Unfortunately, it doesn't work:
The GIF I made above, clearly shows Maria firing the blast first, and the heavily nerfed Wanda creating the shield AFTER the blast was fired. Which shuts down the idea that Maria's blasts are = To Carol's.
But if the above isn't enough, here's another GIF by yours truly, of a badly nerfed Wanda, reacting to Maria and blocking after the latter shot her blast:
I said it before, and I'll say it again. Variants don't scale.
So if we go ahead and say that Variants truly do scale. And that Maria's blasts are unironically equal to Carol's without Maria proving that they are in the first place.
Then that makes this confirmed badly nerfed Wanda have FTL reaction speed. Or Speed of Light at least. Which is contradicted when she couldn't move out of the way of a sneak attack by MoM Carter:
The same Carter she couldn't tag before:
And she goes on to struggle tagging MoM Carter with multiple blasts:
Couldn't even land one blast on Carter. Does that make Carter MFTL+? And since Variants scale. Does that mean What If? Carter also scales to this speed?
And there's also the fact that she couldn't do anything with her FTL reactions against this slow ass spell by Strange:
Same Wanda that couldn't move out of the way of Strange's slow ass spell:
And couldn't react to this, definitely nowhere even near Subsonic spell from Strange, and couldn't avoid the water that came down on her:
And this is all ignoring how clearly faster Carol's blasts are in comparison to Maria's slow blasts:
And that's ignroing how noob Carol's blasts seem far faster even during Captain Marvel 1:
She has shown the ability to consistently obliterate Kree fighter ships while using these blasts.
And she can create a shockwave that covers a large distance in an instant:
Her she uses this ability to create a massive explosion of energy around her intimidating the Kree into fleeing.
So Maria scaling to Carol relies heavily on them sharing the same name. And nothing else. Because everything else contradicts it.
Also, Cope & Seethe? Why? Who hurt you to the point you had to make this?
@cryolancer47: The cope and seethe thing at the end was out of line, and I apologize.
(Xavier being fodder.
Xavier hasn't appeared in the MCU at all, so we have no way of knowing wether it's inconsistent or not. Also, just because he's featless doesn't make him fodder. I can't just say he's super strong like Apocalypse Xavier, but you can't say he's weak without proof.
Carter not showing any skill or strength near her What If? Version who should be far above the nerfed Wanda she fought.
Why would What If? Peggy be above Wanda? Why would Wanda arbitrarily be super soldier level? Also, see my comment about mediums. Add that to the fact that the only thing Peggy has done is a 3 minute fight rather than having a 30 minute episode and you don't get to see a lot of feats. What reason would they have for showing over the top feats? It would break the flow of the fight.
And Defender Strange having completely different abilities with his magic. None of which our Strange has shown.)
That's like using Strange Supreme to debunk this. Strange variants are different from the others because they channel magic from other dimensions. It's not their innate power.
And that's not even going into Carol vs Phase 1 Thor.
Carol in sacred timeline has no feats above Thor without being amped by the energy from the gauntlet.
Or Sub-Cull level Thanos.
Sub-Cull level when he caught his overhead blow and pushed it back? Also, I addressed this in the OP.
For episode 2 Thanos, this Thanos had not fought for years. He was very out of shape. On top of this, Proxima hit him with an alien weapon. Corvus’s weapon has cut through vibranium before, so the Black Order’s weapons aren’t weak.
Considering Cap and Spidey staggered Thanos in IW and EG...
Or how Natasha clearly affected Loki with her kick when she sent him flying:
No she didn't. Loki wasn't facing her. He didn't expect the attack. And his expression was one of shock. It doesn't show he was hurt.
And even in the MCU. She hasn't shown the stats to do that. Since even Captain America couldn't do what she did to OG Loki. And he's above her in stats via feats.
And Loki wasn't bracing of getting ready to tank hits against a serious Cap. He just tanked those hits and then and shrugged them off before he beat him decisively.
He knew he was in a fight. Therefore, he was ready for Cap's hits. Also, DCEU Superman has been moved by bullets in MoS, yet he's far above bullet level.
And the "Maria was drained" argument has been countered and debunked about a 100 times at this point all we see is Wanda taking away her Binary-mode.
The same mode that Maria was in when she was taken out of the fight by a smaller statue:
And even after she was "Drained by Wanda" She still survived flying at high speeds. Slamming into the statue with her back first. And falling a long distance and recovering quickly to bring up her arms in an attempt to shield herself.
Said statue was thrown by Wanda, so all we can conclude is that Wanda threw a statue hard enough to hurt her. It's not like Thor and Superman don't have these instances:
And the Wanda that did this to her has been confirmed to beHEAVILYweakened due to her variants body limiting her:
What makes you think she was so weakened that she was sub super soldier level?
While being depowered by a Kree dampening device and before learning how to user her abilities Carol could tank a fall from space without damage.
Carol falls from space again, but this time she impacts with such force that she creates a massive crater.
To Captain Marvel reentry heat is nothing more than a light breeze.
She tanked the second impact in binary, seeing as her eyes were glowing. For the first one, falling from past a certain point changes nothing due to terminal velocity, and that feat would be wall level, so literally fodder. Brie Larson is 58 kg and 5'7.
Means that her terminal velocity would be 43.62 m/s. Kinetic energy=0.5*mass*velocity^2.
0.5*58*43.62^2=55,178.4276 joules. Hardly impressive. And reentry heat has nothing to do with anything, since heat is grossly inefficient at transferring energy, which is why being in the center of the sun would be multi city block level.
Yeah. She's definitely above statue-level in base. Lmao.
Care to bet? Estimating that statue was 10 meters tall and human shaped. The average human is around 1.7 meters, making the statue 5.88 times taller than a person. Humans have a volume of 62,000 cubic centimeters, or 0.062 cubic meters. Using the square cube law, the volume would be 0.062*5.88^3, which is 12.6 meters. Density of marble is 2,711 kg/m^4. 2,711*12.6=34,211.68 kg. Since it was 10 meters tall, we'll use potential energy. 10*9.8*34,211.68=3,352,744.96 joules, which is 60 times better than your reentry feat for Carol.
So if we go ahead and say that Variants truly do scale. And that Maria's blasts are unironically equal to Carol's without Maria proving that they are in the first place.
Then that makes this confirmed badly nerfed Wanda have FTL reaction speed. Or Speed of Light at least. Which is contradicted when she couldn't move out of the way of a sneak attack by MoM Carter:
Like you said, a sneak attack from the smoke.
The same Carter she couldn't tag before:
She missed lol. It's like saying that random action movie heroes are bullet timers because they don't get shot.
And she goes on to struggle tagging MoM Carter with multiple blasts:
She missed again. And why does Wanda's attack speed scale to her reaction speed? What kind of sense does that make?
Couldn't even land one blast on Carter. Does that make Carter MFTL+? And since Variants scale. Does that mean What If? Carter also scales to this speed?
No, since:
You're scaling attack speed to reaction speed, which makes no sense. Is DCEU Superman light speed now because his heat vision is light speed? No.
I have never claimed that Wanda is FTL, and I likely never will.
You are vastly overstating how fast Carter would have to move compared to the beam. She didn't have to move nearly as much distance to dodge, so she wouldn't even be light speed.
It's not like main timeline Cap hasn't reacted to light speed attacks. That is an outlier, but still.
And there's also the fact that she couldn't do anything with her FTL reactions against this slow ass spell by Strange:
Sigh
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Does this scene invalidate Quicksilver's mansion feat? After all, if he was fast enough to near statue (and fully statue at one point) an explosion while moving at blur speed and saving everyone, he should be fast enough to save everyone from a sound wave.
And this is all ignoring how clearly faster Carol's blasts are in comparison to Maria's slow blasts:
Again, why would this not simply be cinematic timing? I can point out the same thing with DCEU Superman's heat vision. Doesn't make it true.
You have also ignored much the evidence I layed out in the OP.
Do Thanos and co. scale to performances in Star Lord T'Challa episode?
Sub-Cull level when he caught his overhead blow and pushed it back? Also, I addressed this in the OP.
For episode 2 Thanos, this Thanos had not fought for years. He was very out of shape. On top of this, Proxima hit him with an alien weapon. Corvus’s weapon has cut through vibranium before, so the Black Order’s weapons aren’t weak.
Considering Cap and Spidey staggered Thanos in IW and EG...
@calclord: Think you reposted your response to Cryolancer about Cull but I didn't mention him, I was referring to Thanos and "co." as Proxima, T'Challa's other teammates, etc
@rajjarsalt: If Sacred Timeline Thanos was out of shape then yeah, he'd be like Ravanger Thanos. That's the whole point. Proxima would scale, and everyone else probably would as well.
@rajjarsalt: If Sacred Timeline Thanos was out of shape then yeah, he'd be like Ravanger Thanos. That's the whole point. Proxima would scale, and everyone else probably would as well.
@rajjarsalt: Yeah, but he's not fighting. I once took a two week break in between the end of cross country season and the start of indoor track season. My physical appearance didn't change, but I was significantly worse off because of it.
Xavier hasn't appeared in the MCU at all, so we have no way of knowing wether it's inconsistent or not
Since the main point of the post was to show how Variants do scale to their alternative universe selves. And since the only other versions of Xavier that exist in movies, and are played by the same version exist with Fox. That's what I used as a comparison to show how weak he is.
And it is definitely inconsistent and pathetic. Since this Xavier took his sweet ass time to show our Strange a memory. And required using hand gestures to do so:
Also, inb4 someone brings up Xavier into the equation. He's a slow fodder that requires hand gestures to use his Telepathy. And took his sweet ass time to show Strange a memory:
Meanwhile, Even the weakest incarnation of Fox Xavier in First Class Charles, can casually replicate that feat, and enter the minds of multiple people, go through their heads, memories and secrets. And freeze multiple individuals when he's nowhere close to them:
And First Class is the weakest version of Fox Xavier. He was still capable of casually getting into the heads of people and finding lots and lots of important and personal info (Start at 0:20), and CASUALLY controlling multiple people, and freezing them instantly when he wasn't even nearby (Start at 1:53):
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And has decent range when he's casually trying to read a mind (Start at 0:50):
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So MoM Xavier is quite pathetic in comparison to the weakest version of Fox Xavier.
I can't just say he's super strong like Apocalypse Xavier, but you can't say he's weak without proof.
He's definitely nowhere near that version. Since he got immediately stomped and his neck snapped by MCU Witch. While Fox Xavier at that point was amped to be on or above his Cerebro level by Apocalypse. Which is Planetary-level to the point he could kill everyone around the planet without issue. Or pick and choose which species to kill. And he still got stomped by Apocalypse. While Wanda isn't even City-level by feats. And requires her Hex to be small town-level in range.
And MoM Xavier lost to a heavily nerfed version and got downright stomped before he could do anything.
Why would What If? Peggy be above Wanda? Why would Wanda arbitrarily be super soldier level?
A confirmed nerfed Wanda. That managed to consistently react to Maria's blasts.
And since you want to go and say that Variants do scale. That means Maria's blasts undeniably scale to Carol's Speed of Light blasts. Which means a bloodlusted Wanda couldn't tag Peggy on two occasions. Despite the person she's trying to tag being far below her via sheer scaling and lack of feats.
And if Variants scale. That means What If? Carter scales to MoM Carter that dodged blasts from someone who can consistently react to Speed of Light projectiles. Yet can't react fast enough to tag Peggy before she can reach her shield.
Also, see my comment about mediums.
Already did. But What if? Didn't do much with their animation when it came to Carter to bring up the medium argument here. It should only be used if a character consistently does stuff that would be damn near impossible to LA characters.
Add that to the fact that the only thing Peggy has done is a 3 minute fight rather than having a 30 minute episode and you don't get to see a lot of feats.
Which is another reason for why we can't give her feats from a completely different version that is fleshed out.
She didn't show that she deserves that scaling.
A good example of how you show that Variants can scale is the Spider-Men. They all proved to us on-screen that they were all damn near equals. With the exception of Tobey Spidey. Since he's clearly above Holland in strength via stopping the bloodlusted Glider swing on Norman.
What reason would they have for showing over the top feats? It would break the flow of the fight.
Here's a counter to this
What reason does anyone have to believe that she scales to "What if?" Carter without proof?
Better yet. Let's wank MoM Xavier to Fox Xavier. Since i can use the same excuse you gave for Peggy. And thus, I don't have to prove anything.
That's like using Strange Supreme to debunk this. Strange variants are different from the others because they channel magic from other dimensions. It's not their innate power.
1. We know nothing about MoM Strange Supreme, other than the fact that he needed the Book of Vishanti to beat 4 stone Thanos.
2. The only difference Strange Variants have is their outfits, the color of their magic, and their hair-styles. This is no different than the Steve & Carter example you used in the OP via the Batroc scaling. Or Maria & Carol. Since we don't know how Maria got her powers. And she wears a completely different outfit, and clearly has a different history to our Carol.
3. They still undergo the same teachings. Since Defender Strange is confirmed to have been the Sorcerer Supreme of his universe. Which only happened after The Ancient One died in Doctor Strange 2016. And Sinister Strange managed to match our MCU Strange in firepower. Despite being amped & corrupted by the Darkhold. Which made him Bloodlusted. And should've kicked him up even higher. But that didn't happen.
Carol in sacred timeline has no feats above Thor without being amped by the energy from the gauntlet.
She has better durability in base to Phase 1 Thor. Who you're arguing scales to Party Thor in stats:
Durability
While being depowered by a Kree dampening device and before learning how to user her abilities Carol could tank a fall from space without damage.
Carol falls from space again, but this time she impacts with such force that she creates a massive crater.
To Captain Marvel reentry heat is nothing more than a light breeze.
And what you're seeing above is a younger, less experienced Carol with only her Captain Marvel feats.
1. The first feat is literally her in base form.
2. And the second one happened when she was clearly in base form as well.
3. And you can clearly see her turning off her Binary mode in the 3rd gif before she punches Yon-Rogg's ship. So she not only handles being out in a place that would kill most characters. But she also survives reentry to some degree.
Bring me feats from Phase 1 Thor specifically, that outdo Carol's durability feats in base form.
Sub-Cull level when he caught his overhead blow and pushed it back? Also, I addressed this in the OP.
A serious Raveger Thanos was pushed back by a swing from Cull, despite already seeing it coming, and shielding against it:
Meanwhile, even Pre-FFH Spider-Man caught Cull's double-handed swing without much issue. And had Cull leaning into it:
And MCU Thanos required Mantis to keep him sedated. Someone who can immediately take out Ego. Someone who's at least moon level in size, into sleep. And she could barely keep Thanos down. And Tony + Peter. Two of the strongest members. Had to put maximum effort to pull the gauntlet out from his grip.
So the Thanos that fought Cull being anywhere near MCU Thanos in strength is pretty questionable. And Since a sedated MCU Thanos required multiple individuals, including Spidey, just to take the glove out of his grip. That shuts out the "He was out of shape argument" that I don't know where you pulled it from. Since the sedated Thanos should be in a state where his body can't move a muscle so that they can take the Gauntlet off of him. And they still struggled to keep him in place and take it out off of him.
And there's also the fact that he had trouble tagging Proxima after getting hit in the head once by Cull (Granted, he was hurt in the leg. But he could still move well and swing. And tank many other slashes from her before going down) and he was then taken out after one more slash and two hammer hits (Sped up version of the fight):
And both Proxima & Cull are far below Tony in speed and reaction by feats. Let alone main MCU Thanos.
And is there a source that proves this Thanos was out-of-shape?
Considering Cap and Spidey staggered Thanos in IW and EG...
Spidey has feats to show his strength level. And what he did to Thanos is a High-End. And considered one of his best Strength showings. And it also required multiple blows, and the help of Strange's portals to disorient Thanos.
And Cap required an amp via Mjolnir, a weapon made of Uru Metal, to do so against a non-serious Thanos. The moment Thanos got pissed off and crushed his helmet, he low-diffed and blitzed Cap. Cap didn't stagger Thanos with his fists. He need Mjolnir to do so. And Thanos not going all-out from the start.
No she didn't. Loki wasn't facing her. He didn't expect the attack. And his expression was one of shock. It doesn't show he was hurt.
Yes she did. What If? Loki straight-up grunted in pain when he got kicked and was clearly dazed by the kick:
Meamhile OG MCU Loki casually tanked and shrugged off a Vibranium shield to the chest:
And we both know how tough that thing is.
Vibranium Shield >>>> Natasha's foot.
He also tanked and shrugged off Steves' serious punch:
And easily sent him flying with a hit from his staff:
And tanked a punch to the side from Steve and, you guessed it, shrugged it off as well. Before he sent him flying again:
And in case you're gonna go ahead and continue saying that he prepared for those hits or whatever. Here's a plethora of stuff he was clearly not ready for. And still tanked:
Loki tanks getting bull-rushed by Thor, tackled through the Bifrost, and sent flying a solid distance from the impact - and is basically unharmed.
Loki survives this large electricity blast from Mjolnir. This is one of the few times we see Loki actually down for a significant period of time.
Loki survives this HUGE explosion as the Bifrost is destroyed, and appears basically unaffected afterwards (as seen when he was holding on to Gugnir with Odin holding him and Thor).
He wasn't prepared for any of the above. And he still tanked the first two, before getting up quickly. And I assure you, all the feats above are far above the AP of Natasha's foot.
There's no excuse for such an embarrassing showing.
He knew he was in a fight. Therefore, he was ready for Cap's hits. Also, DCEU Superman has been moved by bullets in MoS, yet he's far above bullet level.
1. Being ready doesn't suddenly mean his durability drops down. He was straight-up standing still and tanked a Vibranium shield to the chest without much issue, as well as hits from Cap as I already showed. And tanked much worse when not ready.
2. Man of Steel Supes is his weakest iteration. And doesn't scale to his later versions in feats and level. Why he was moved is beyond me. But that's not a good example to use in comparison to Loki. Cause bullets will have more kinetic force than Natasha's foot. Enough to go through Cap who is > Widow in stats. As shown when Bucky shot Steve.
Said statue was thrown by Wanda, so all we can conclude is that Wanda threw a statue hard enough to hurt her.
Since you like to do calcs so much. You'll surely know that Force = Mass x Acceleration. It doesn't matter how strong she is, or how much she scales at all. She doesn't magically get more force because she threw it. It would be literally the same no matter who threw it, if it was the same speed. That force is not anything Binary Carol hasn't shrugged off before.
And this is ignoring that this badly nerfed Wanda is below Civil War & her Infinity War versions in Telekinesis, by feats.
And a nerfed base Carol tanked a fall from Orbit when her powers were out:
While being depowered by a Kree dampening device and before learning how to user her abilities Carol could tank a fall from space without damage.
So Maria getting taken out of the fight for that long in her Binary-mode is embarrassing. And debunks her scaling to Carol in base. Let alone when she's actively using Binary-mode.
It's not like Thor and Superman don't have these instances:
Those two have the feats to counter that poor lowball. Maria doesn't. And relies solely on your personal scaling to someone with actual feats. Despite the clear contradiction in said scaling.
What makes you think she was so weakened that she was sub super soldier level?
Because she had trouble tagging someone who is far below Wanda in her original body. And Wanda in her original body can keep up with MCU Thanos. Who is >> Hulk, who is >>>>>> Super Soldiers.
And the fight itself shows it. She was having trouble with the body and it was compared to a bad car in comparison to her original one. And her feats are sub-Civil War/Infinity War Wanda level in Telekinesis.
That's all I need to know.
She tanked the second impact in binary, seeing as her eyes were glowing.
She wasn't in Binary-mode. She fell and created a big crater. Her eyes glowed but her body wasn't covered in energy. Which is what happens when Binary-mode is on and amping her. Similar to how Thor's eyes glow sometimes but his Lightning-Cloak isn't on. Which is also a similar amp. An example of this is when Hela was choking him and they glowed. But he wasn't covered in Lightning.
I don't know about this Calc of yours:
For the first one, falling from past a certain point changes nothing due to terminal velocity, and that feat would be wall level, so literally fodder. Brie Larson is 58 kg and 5'7.
Means that her terminal velocity would be 43.62 m/s. Kinetic energy=0.5*mass*velocity^2.
0.5*58*43.62^2=55,178.4276 joules. Hardly impressive. And reentry heat has nothing to do with anything, since heat is grossly inefficient at transferring energy, which is why being in the center of the sun would be multi city block level.
And the statue calc:
Care to bet? Estimating that statue was 10 meters tall and human shaped. The average human is around 1.7 meters, making the statue 5.88 times taller than a person. Humans have a volume of 62,000 cubic centimeters, or 0.062 cubic meters. Using the square cube law, the volume would be 0.062*5.88^3, which is 12.6 meters. Density of marble is 2,711 kg/m^4. 2,711*12.6=34,211.68 kg. Since it was 10 meters tall, we'll use potential energy. 10*9.8*34,211.68=3,352,744.96 joules, which is 60 times better than your reentry feat for Carol.
I'm gonna have to ask some people to check if they're true. Since calcs can be wrong alot of times.
Thoughts on the calcs above, since you're the experts?
A sneak attack by someone who should be damn near a snail to Wanda's reaction speed, if Maria truly does scale to Carol. Since Wanda clearly turned around and saw the shield coming at her. But couldn't move out of the way and got tagged.
And This nerfed Wanda consistently reacted to the blasts of Maria. Which should be Speed of Light by your own logic. So there's even less reason to excuse such a poor showing.
She missed lol. It's like saying that random action movie heroes are bullet timers because they don't get shot.
She missed multiple shots. And a running Carter should be slow as heck against a Wanda that was going for the kill with said blasts. And managed to consistently react to the blasts of a Maria who's absolutely equal to Carol in blast speed. Despite her blasts moving far slower. And so is Maria moving that slowly when she's going in for the kill on Wanda:
Her blasts barely went through rubble and required her to physically move through it to get to Wanda.
Meanwhile, Binary-mode Carol goes through Thanos's ship, and a far less experienced version goes through Ronan's ship + fleet, without much issue:
And other examples that prove that her blasts are far superior in speed to Maria's:
And this is all ignoring how clearly faster Carol's blasts are in comparison to Maria's slow blasts:
And that's ignroing how noob Carol's blasts seem far faster even during Captain Marvel 1:
She has shown the ability to consistently obliterate Kree fighter ships while using these blasts.
And she can create a shockwave that covers a large distance in an instant:
Her she uses this ability to create a massive explosion of energy around her intimidating the Kree into fleeing.
And they're both in the same medium. There's no excuse for crazy speed animation or whatever.
Also, that depends on what Action movie heroes you're using to say they are bullet-timers. And they need legit feats to prove that they're anywhere near that speed. The same logic you used here:
It's like saying that random action movie heroes are bullet timers because they don't get shot.
Can be used against you with the Maria scaling to Carol. Since she's been challenged and low-diffed by a badly nerfed Wanda who was not only having trouble with 838 Wanda's body. But also had her power-level kicked down the same way it happened to MCU Strange while in Defender Strange's body. And also had the body of 838 Wanda get compared to a "Bad Car" in comparison to her original body.
Here's my version: "That's like saying all Variants scale because they look the same"
Do you see why that's a bad comparison.
She missed again. And why does Wanda's attack speed scale to her reaction speed? What kind of sense does that make?
If Wanda wasn't having much trouble like you think. Then she should've absolutely tagged this Super Soldier level fodder. Since her blasts travel fast enough to reach Thanos before he can reach her. And she could shot two before Thanos can get up. The same Thanos that can blitz and press Worthy Cap. Which would put their speed above Carter’s movement.
And even if we ignore the Thanos scaling. Even with just her reaction speed via consistently reacting to Maria blasts after they were fired (Which should be at least Lightspeed via MoM Maria scaling. Who also undeniably scales to Carol in everything) Puts Wanda's reaction far higher than Carter’s speed. So Carter should be moving in slow-mo to this badly Nerfed Wanda. Which would allow her to place even one shot to land. Yet she didn't. And Carter dodged all her blasts.
You're scaling attack speed to reaction speed, which makes no sense. Is DCEU Superman light speed now because his heat vision is light speed? No.
1. Wanda's blast speed is fast enough to tag the likes of a serious Thanos and Strange. And even pressures Thanos to the point the dude struggled to pick up his blade:
Both of whom have superior reaction feats to the likes of Carter.
And this is ignoring the fact that the blasts above move far faster in comparison to the ones in MoM:
2. You keep bringing up DCEU Heat Vision being Speed of Light. Is that even true? Or does that only rely on a statment that is contradicted by feats? Because one statement doesn't mean something is 100% true. It needs the feats to prove it's Speed of Light. Not flowery language on a piece of paper.
Many things/characters in fiction have absurd statements that say that they move at such speeds. And many characters can be wanked to said speeds. Feats are what prove and disapprove that.
I have never claimed that Wanda is FTL, and I likely never will.
She unfortunately is via consistently reacting to the blasts of MoM Maria, when Wanda was badly nerfed by her Variants' crappy body.
And since Maria scales to Carol by your own logic. A badly nerfed Wanda scales to Carol's confirmed Speed of Light blasts, via Maria. And Carter also scales via consistently dodging Wanda's attacks.
You are vastly overstating how fast Carter would have to move compared to the beam. She didn't have to move nearly as much distance to dodge, so she wouldn't even be light speed.
What beam? Wanda throws disconnected projectiles at Carter:
Not a beam. And none of which manage to land on someone running in a straight-line. Despite the fact that Wanda was bloodlusted the entirety of that encounter and doing her best to kill them.
And someone reacting to Speed of Light beams should/would have fast enough reactions to tag someone like Carter.
Seeing how a similarly bloodlusted Wanda can do the same to Thanos and press him with said projectiles:
And Thanos already has better speed feats and scaling than Carter:
SUPER SPEED
Thanos moves faster and reacts at Loki's cheap shot attempt and he easily deals with it.
Loki is fast enough to catch Hawkeye's arrow barehanded, he has superhuman reflexes.
Thanos catches Iron Spider midair while Iron Spider uses Doctor Strange's magic portals. In addition to that portal advantage, Spider-man already has superhuman reflexes and speed.
Iron Spider is fast enough to dodge from Starlord's blaster bolts and he is a bullet-timer.
When Thanos was blinded by Iron Spider's web,
He still reacts at Doctor Strange's magical blade and catches it with bare hands.
Thanos catches Black Panther midair, who is a bullet-timer.
Just like Loki, Black Panther has enhanced speed and reflexes, he was able to catch Hawk Eye's dual arrows barehanded.
N'Jobu: ''A warrior shaman received a vision from the panther goddess Bast, who led him to the Heart-Shaped Herb, a plant that granted him superhuman strength, speed and instincts."
Source: Black Panther (2018)
Thanos easily dodges from Hulk's punches in close combat, and he moves faster than him.
Hulk is fast enough to defeat Abomination in close combat, who can catch an RPG barehanded when his back is turned.
Hulk has very superhuman reflexes, he catches a supersonic Aircraft.
Hulk also catches an ejection seat while sitting on an Aircraft. And he also caught Iron Man before he falls from the sky in the battle of New York.
Thanos vs. Captain Marvel's energy attack,
Thanos is fast enough to react at Captain Marvel's fast photon blast.
Thanos is fast enough to casually react to Cap, Nanotech Iron Man and Thor at the same time in combat.
Cap is a bullet-timer, Iron Man can fly at supersonic speeds and Thor reacted at supersonic speeds before.
It's confirmed by the director Russo that Thor was in his prime by the end of Endgame against Thanos.
Anthony Russo: "The difficult road that Thor's traveled ultimately gave him strength. He was stronger than ever by the end of Endgame."
Source: Q&A on Reddit (8/8/2019)
Thanos reacts at Mjolnir's supersonic flight speed, and uses Iron Man as a shield.
And holds Iron Man's head to its direction.
Thanos moves faster and dodges Worthy Cap's Mjolnir strike after getting hit by lightning.
Thanos reacts at Stormbreaker's supersonic flight speed,
Stormbreaker blitzed hundreds of Alien Outriders at Wakanda and Thanos catches it in midair.
Thanos moves faster than Worthy Cap, and blocks Cap's Mjolnir strike.
Cap is fast enough to dodge bullets in close combat.
Thanos throws his blade very fast,
And destroys the quantum tunnel before anyone could enter.
So the fact that she couldn't even land one should place Carter very highly in speeds. Unless, Variants don't scale, of course.
It's not like main timeline Cap hasn't reacted to light speed attacks. That is an outlier, but still.
1. When did MCU Cap react to Speed of Light attacks?
2. Calling it an Outlier implies that the thing in question is anywhere near Speed of Light. Since if something hasn't proved that it moves at such speeds. There's no reason to say it's an Outlier.
Sigh
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Does this scene invalidate Quicksilver's mansion feat? After all, if he was fast enough to near statue (and fully statue at one point) an explosion while moving at blur speed and saving everyone, he should be fast enough to save everyone from a sound wave.
1. No it doesn't, because Pietro wasn't even running. He's only fast when he runs. And they were all just shocked about Alex's death.
2. They were all caught off-guard. If Pietro knew what was even happening, he would've statued and stomped Stryker and his boys. Who were prepped up with a weapon that took everyone out.
3. Unlike MoM Maria & Carter. Fox Quicksilver has actual feats of his own that don't rely on wonky scaling that gets contradicted by feats.
Bad example. Because just like MCU Thor & DCEU Superman. Quicksilver has actual good feats that counter the lowball. Unlike MoM Maria & Carter.
Again, why would this not simply be cinematic timing?
Because not everything that goes against your case is cinematic timing or different mediums.
If Tony shot a repulsor blast. And it moved far slower than humans. Would we excuse it by calling it cinematic timing? No. We would call it a shit feat from a shit suit.
I can point out the same thing with DCEU Superman's heat vision. Doesn't make it true.
You keep bringing it up as if I'm a firm believer of DCEU Superman having Speed of Light Heat Vision. I never knew about such an absurd statement up until you brought it up. I never met anyone who unironically used it.
There's a reason people are excited by Serious Supes keeping up with Flash in Speed. And not getting statued. It's because feats >>>>> Statments that almost every character in fiction has.
Speed of Light/FTL statements should not be taken very seriously without proof. Otherwise, you get Speed of Light Part 1 Naruto.
You have also ignored much the evidence I layed out in the OP.
I have not ignored anything.
No offense. But you keep ignoring what doesn't go with the narrative you want to go with. And try to call anything that contradicts it either an Outlier or try to use poor anti-feats of some characters (Superman, Thor, Quicksilver) that get debunked by the feats of said characters and their consistent, established level.
Our Pre-Darkhold Wanda is still far above 838 Wanda when you compare their performances and feats.
Infinity War Wanda Pre-Rage amp is far above 838 in Telekinesis (Credit to Heiqn for the feats):
Wanda can lift giant-wheels which should be equal to at least thousands of tons and throws them up with high speed which should be equal to millions of tons force
Meanwhile, this is the best TK feat 838 has displayed:
So even Pre-Darkhold and the rage-amp she got after Vision's death.
Our Witch >>> 838's Witch. And this is ignoring the clear fact that 838 Wanda has a different history than ours.
For the first one, falling from past a certain point changes nothing due to terminal velocity, and that feat would be wall level, so literally fodder. Brie Larson is 58 kg and 5'7.
Means that her terminal velocity would be 43.62 m/s. Kinetic energy=0.5*mass*velocity^2.
0.5*58*43.62^2=55,178.4276 joules. Hardly impressive. And reentry heat has nothing to do with anything, since heat is grossly inefficient at transferring energy, which is why being in the center of the sun would be multi city block level.
Care to bet? Estimating that statue was 10 meters tall and human shaped. The average human is around 1.7 meters, making the statue 5.88 times taller than a person. Humans have a volume of 62,000 cubic centimeters, or 0.062 cubic meters. Using the square cube law, the volume would be 0.062*5.88^3, which is 12.6 meters. Density of marble is 2,711 kg/m^4. 2,711*12.6=34,211.68 kg. Since it was 10 meters tall, we'll use potential energy. 10*9.8*34,211.68=3,352,744.96 joules, which is 60 times better than your reentry feat for Carol.
Thoughts on the calcs above, since you're the experts?
Your pretty good yourself, even caught me being wrong a few times. :)
The first one ignores a few things, most minor, but one major. Minor being things like outside influences on her fall ( her initial velocity being one of them ) or the time in which we see her fall which is well beyond terminal velocity. Major being that the human body is not perfectly flat. The impact force is applied to a very small area relative to the cross sectional area (which doesn't seem relevant, btw) he is trying to calculate.
The second one is all jacked up. That wouldn't be how you calculate it at all. That would be a calculation as if you picked up the statue, and dropped the entire thing onto ICM lengthwise(so upright).
For starters, the statue was breaking apart before it ever hit ICM. You can clearly see this. So the force that hits her is fractional at best. Secondly, the majority of the statue hits the ground before it hits ICM, meaning most of the force was applied to the ground and not to her, even if we were to assume his weight calculation is correct. Even if you were to assume that only the head hit her intact, which seems to be the case, the lower body of the statue hitting the ground first reduces the force the head would apply.
No offense. But you keep ignoring what doesn't go with the narrative you want to go with. And try to call anything that contradicts it either an Outlier or try to use poor anti-feats of some characters (Superman, Thor, Quicksilver) that get debunked by the feats of said characters and their consistent, established level.
You shouldn't have put Quicksilver in that conversation. He has no feats to put him anywhere above what his actual, confirmed speed is, which is Mach 1. We have statements from Actor, director, VFX, and addendum statements.
Also, his big feat, of perceiving a handgun round in slow motion is directly in line with that. A 9mm round travels at roughly 1,180 FPS, which is slightly over Mach 1, and that isn't accounting for the effect the bullet hitting glass would have on its speed.
If his perception matched his speed, being Mach 1, then the scene would appear exactly the way we saw it. Which is a huge problem for the MCU, because of everything else that was statued in the same way, like Repulsors and Thor.
@Aristeaus: Yo, thanks for responding! I appreciate the help with the calcs, mate.
Also:
Your pretty good yourself, even caught me being wrong a few times. :)
;)
Also, also:
You shouldn't have put Quicksilver in that conversation. He has no feats to put him anywhere above what his actual, confirmed speed is, which is Mach 1. We have statements from Actor, director, VFX, and addendum statements.
Also, his big feat, of perceiving a handgun round in slow motion is directly in line with that. A 9mm round travels at roughly 1,180 FPS, which is slightly over Mach 1, and that isn't accounting for the effect the bullet hitting glass would have on its speed.
If his perception matched his speed, being Mach 1, then the scene would appear exactly the way we saw it. Which is a huge problem for the MCU, because of everything else that was statued in the same way, like Repulsors and Thor.
I was talking about Fox Quicksilver. Not MCU. Cause that one is garbage in comparison.
@cryolancer47: I had a big post ready in reply, but it got deleted, so I'll just say this: I can concede that people like Maria and Carter don't scale. I can concede that variants shouldn't scale if they're blatantly shown to be different with no explanation, like Ravager Thanos. However, I do think that most variants do scale. People like Cap from What If episode 9, Carol, good Strange from What If, etc. Fair enough?
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