MCU Skill Tiers Thread

Yea @rogueshadow this is gonna need a looking at once you're done with Defenders lol!

I think it made clear Matt was above Danny

Alexandra would probably be implied grandmaster tier.

Sowande and Murakami(That the Japanese Hand guy's name?) should be master, maybe above Bakuto.

Let me know your thoughts once you finish it can properly discuss stuff then

@thorthunder98: Also Black Sky should be grandmaster.

@jayc1324: I wouldn't call her a grandmaster, Matt was around her level, slightly inferior.

Black Sky should be a Grandmaster tier.

@jayc1324: Yea she could be too, but how much of her beating people was down to physicals? cause she was dealing Luke some damage she was 100% superhuman. She was contending with Danny with IF though too, that was a weird scene for me though like Danny had IF activated and he was all sloppy and jobbed. Power levels fluctuated for the characters quite a bit I found mainly Black Sky, Danny and the Hand members

@ithemanwithoutfeari: I wouldn't call any of them grandmasters, except maybe Gao, and even then, that's without feats, just implied.

The one guy I might make a case for is Sowande, I'm pretty sure he was enhanced, but his martial art skill was extremely impressive.

@thorthunder98: wasn't really jobbing though, Danny just happen to fight someone more skilled than him who could handle the iron fist.

@comickidd77: Idk before when he uses the Iron Fist he fights much better and was fighting better against her before he activated it. It's supposed to amp him but he didn't even land a hit on her apart from the first chi punch, but then Matt landed hits on her, Danny did too before he activated it. Once he uses it he should be able to tag her much more easily imo.

@thorthunder98: I think it was a mix, she was at the very least as skilled, if not more skilled, but Danny is also a jobber. Imo Elektra was the most skilled main character, but Sowande was more skilled than her.

Yea I get that it's just once chi was activated he should've been able to tag her way more or at least be equal with her. Yea Sowande was insane with his pressure point shit!

@thorthunder98: Was Sowande enhanced? Either way he was the most skilled fighter on the show.

And Idk about Danny, unfortunately, there are just too many "should be's" with Danny currently. Logically he should be the best there is, but they really butchered that, so idk. Defenders fighting MVP goes to Sowande, shame he was only there for like one fight T_T

@komboing: Idk because Murakami might be too he was taking on Cage by himself somehow

Yea but I feel in that moment he jobbed, he was doing better against her without the fist lol

@thorthunder98:

Well for me the top 5 were:

Sowande

Elektra

Matt

Danny

Murakami

Gao was close, but she has TK. Someone should make a Sowande vs Oliver thread, I'm undecided on who would win, I think Oliver could take elektra, but not sure about Sowande.

She beat Matt in the hallway fight, and then again outside the Chinese diner. Maybe she isn't a grandmaster but it is debatable. I mean if Gao is considered a grand master, Elektra should be considered, since she is above her. Hard to tell how much is due to her superhuman physicals though

Good point about her physicals. But she was clearly above Matt, and Matt himself was beating Danny. She doesn't have to be grandmaster but I wouldn't put her below anyone in the second best tier either.

@jayc1324: I would say she was the second most skilled fighter in the entire show, right behind Sowande. We don't have enough from Gao, all of her feats are from TK.

@komboing: Oliver couldn't take Elektra her physicals are too high she's superhuman and tanked a chi punch she could contend with mcu cap h2h at her peak imo given her durability and ability to hurt cage added to her skill.

I want to hear what rogueshadow has to say once he finishes it he is great at analysing this stuff

@thorthunder98: Matt almost stalemated her. Oliver has dealt with super humans with similar skill before, and he's definitely still more skilled than Matt, I think he could take her. The only one I'm not sure if he could take is Sowande, who is probably almost as skilled as Oliver, but also seems to be enhanced.

Do you think Oliver could solo the Defenders and Stick? I think she is clearly a level above him. She blocks bullets with her sword and one-shotted Luke.

@komboing: Power levels were all over the place throughout the series, she was hurting Luke and tanking Chi punches then fighting Matt and Danny it's very inconsistent. But she still has those feats like Danny's chi punch hurts Luke and she tanked it she's very superhuman.

Just like Murakami, dude was fighting Luke and then got dealt with by Danny, the series was inconsistent with power levels

@jayc1324: To be fair, Luke was already poisoned when she knocked him out. But she was clearly staggering to hurting him with her hits.

@jayc1324: no I dont think he could solo the defenders, but again, I think Oliver could handle her, he is definitely more skilled, and he has dealt with enhanced people before. I think he could edge out a victory.

I think Oliver could take 2 out of any of the 4 defenders at any given time, 3 if Luke isnt there.

Sounds like a huge disservice to Iron Fist if Matt is above him h2h

I don't think his skill advantage is really that large. I don't see Oliver beating Matt any easier than Elektra, and she beat Danny while he was using chi too. Oliver would definitely struggle with that. I think it is possible for him to somehow edge out a victory, but only with his arrows. She holds every physical advantage, and is on the same skill level.

Matt>Danny or is that just me?

I disagree. Elektra completely destroyed Danny in episode 7, without weapons. Danny is definitely on of the top 3 most skilled fighters in the MCU universe.

Elektra should be a tier above him for sure and there is only 1.

@jayc1324: I don't think shes on the same level in terms of skill, I made the mistake of putting Danny on Ollies level through choreography, and name/hype alone, and I'm not gonna make that mistake again.

Ollie's advantages: Skill, he is the most skilled fighter on his planet currently, till Richard shows up. He takes out 15-20 people without a hit, and has also dealt with superhumans through pure skill. Durability, I dont need to list this, he got kicked off a mountain and stabbed through the chest and recovered in a few days. Now in terms of skill, I think Matt/Elektra/Danny would pose a threat, but I don't think either would make Oliver have to go all out, with the exception of Elektra do to physicals.

Elektra's advantage: Strength, an obvious one, she was clearly enhanced, not superhuman, but definitely enhanced. Speed, Danny and Colleen barely saw her, although this won't be a problem for Oliver, because he can react to Barry. Agility, she probably is slightly more agile.

I could be wrong, but I'm more or less on the boat of "Oliver is number 1 in terms of skill" currently, Defenders just made me more sure about that based on what all the characters could individually do, but I do think Sewonde has a chance at being voted as Olivers equal, and overall better do to enhanced physicals.

Overall, Imo, the fight is going to be close, and I think with her enhanced physicals Ollie could take solid 7/10. Without physicals I don't see him losing once, maybe 1/10 if he doesn't do well.

Yea I think that's the conclusion tbh, though usually Danny gets better further into fights when he picks up their style he adapts that's how I've seen it. But still seemed to be implied Matt is more skilled than Danny but wish the fight would've lasted longer.

@ithemanwithoutfeari: I dont think so, originally in their fight Danny was doing well, but by the end he was basically just swinging his hand and missing. But Daredevil almost stalemated her, and I think Matt was almost as skilled as her.

For me it was Sowande, Elektra, Matt, Danny

I know Sowande wasnt a main character, but you cant ignore how skilled he was :P

@komboing: So you ignore the last fight and only look at their first fight ? Ok ...

Also no he wasnt just swinging. He fought like always and got simply destroyed.

Sowande lacks feats to be the best. His nerve strikes against Luke Cage were impressive, but he did nothing that puts him above Elektra.

@ithemanwithoutfeari: I didn't ignore their last fight? I said at the beginning Danny fought well, and he was slightly inferior, but by the end he was clearly fighting horribly, and he got destroyed for it.

I don't need feats to know that Sowande is #1, he was destroying Luke, that's an incredible feat. But no one has answered, is he enhanced or not?

I feel like Clair should be grandmaster tier as well

Yeah it looks that way and before Defenders was available on Netflix, Charlie Cox admitted that he's the weakest Defender but Kristen Ritter said that he's the most skilled.

• I actually finished it a while ago, but I had to rush out afterwards.
• Yeah, I'm saying Matt > Danny after their fight.
• That said, Defenders was pretty wonky, one minute Matt is contending with Bakuto/Murakami simultaneously, the next Bakuto himself is equalling Matt and seemed to nearly get the better of him before Colleen intervened (though that's not entirely clear). Yet Danny > Bakuto and Matt had the advantage over Danny.
• Colleen was skilled, but clearly below the Danny/Matt/Hand Leaders level. I think it was pretty clear that Bakuto >>> Colleen after this.

@dstreet45 said:

While I agree Matt > Danny based on their fight, I wouldn't take Kristen Ritter's word to mean much - no offence to Kristen Ritter, I wouldn't take any of the actor's' words for it. If Loeb said it or one of the writers it would hold more weight.

Couple of things:

• People are putting Elektra at Grandmaster, but while she is very high level, I think Elektra's showings were in large part due to insane strength/speed/durability.
• Also, the Defenders drastically changed the overall nature of the tiers in my opinion.

In fairness, Danny still let's his emotions get in his way a lot. Matt's also about 8 years older than Danny (I think).

Fair enough though I personally think that the since actors have insight into the show they have some level of credibility.

Agreed

How so?

Netflixverse is more skilled overall in my opinion. Lots of characters should be bumped down.

I think it's fair to put Matt over Danny as that's clearly what they wanted to show, but to be fair to Danny generally when he's gone up against highly skilled people he has the lower hand at first before he adapts to their fighting style and skills and seems to improve throughout his fights. Wish the fight had gone on longer, still though Matt>Danny

Yea I found it pretty inconsistent with the power levels for me I noticed that Matt vs Bakuto/Murakami thing I was like this is a bit odd. And then Murakami takes on Luke but Danny can take Murakami out by himself?

Also Danny Vs Elektra at the end was weird for me once the Iron Fist went on it should've been a hell of a fight but he seemed to just job.

You could say Elektra held back against Matt but still she could hurt Luke and tank a chi punch yet Matt is the best contender to fight her? bit inconsistent but chalk it up to PIS and her holding back

What'd you think about Sowande his pressure point stuff on Luke was impressive, how would you rank all the hand leaders in order? you reckon Alexandra is implied grandmaster tier cause I do with the way she spoke to Murakami.

Yea very clear Bakuto could've taken out Colleen whenever he wanted

• I put Matt over Danny, but I also think it's very possible Danny's mindset hindered him, he was clearly very emotional as they were all turning on him. His lack of emotional discipline has consistently made him weaker and as always, he let his emotions get the better of him. Don't get me wrong, until there's any information on that one way or the other, I'm taking it as Matt > Danny, but I do see that as a possibility given how Iron Fist has been portrayed.
• Danny hasn't shown he can amp his stats with chi at will, so Elektra still has a big speed advantage over him, all he can do is use the most basic powers of the Iron Fist. Plus, again, Elektra emotionally manipulated him. He's still a far cry from what we saw in the 1940s footage where the guy (presumably Orson Randall) had both fists alight and it wasn't a drain him at all.
• When was the bit with Murakami taking on Luke and Danny beating him? I don't remember that.
• I do think Elektra was probably holding back against Matt more than the others, that seemed to be laid out in the last episode when Matt said she could have finished him a bunch of times, but she likes the game.

It's tough to rank them, but all of the Hand Leaders were clearly high-tier warriors. Bakuto and Sowande seemed the most impressive int terms of what what we actually saw them do (from what I can recall).

• Bakuto >>>> Colleen was completely confirmed several times, and he was able to rival both Danny and Matt.
• Sowande had the best pressure point usage I can think of in a live-action comic-book property.
• Alexandra seemed to think Murakami was foolish to challenge her alone, so she's probably > Murakami at least.
• Madame Gao clearly has incredible mastery of her chi, and we'd have to assume that does not come without exceptional martial arts skills.

I am not going to even try to convince you of the fact that the woman who teambusted the Defenders multiple times is on a different level than Oliver. But I am shocked that you'd really use Oliver being 99% dead after his fight with Ra's as a durability feat, and someone who blocks bullets is clearly a lot faster than someone who catches arrows. Oliver's skill is really not that much higher than Elektra's. Hell, Hawkeye getting Black Panther in a hold and Batroc giving Cap a hard time are skill feats on his level, since Oliver is always stomped by Mirakuru guys.

Tier One: Grandmaster

• Madame Gao
• Lei Kung (?)

Tier Two: Master

1. Danny Rand - Should be lowered.
2. Steve Rogers - needs to be lower. He should be below Natasha and
3. Melinda May
4. Matt Murdock - Should be above May and Steve Rogers.
5. T'challa
6. Nobu Yoshioka
7. Zhou Cheng
8. Bobbi Morse - needs to be lower for sure behind Stick.
9. Davos
10. The Ancient One - lowered to Elite.
11. Stick* - he is top 10 for sure. Possibly top 5.
12. James Barnes - Should be lower but still master level.
13. Bakuto
14. Grant Ward
15. Natasha Romanoff - Above Ward, Bobbi, and May.
16. Giyera
17. Daniel Drumm
18. Kaecilius - He needs to be lowered to Professional.

*Tentatively

Tier Three: Elite

1. Daisy Johnson
2. Clint Barton - Clint should be low to middle end master level.
3. Elektra Natchios - Should be Master level above Matt.
4. Colleen Wing
5. Thor Odinson
6. Georges Batroc - low end master level for sure.
7. Frank Castle
8. Marcus Scarlotti
9. Phil Coulson
10. Kara Palamas
11. Anton Ivanov -
12. Loki Laufeyson
13. Lady Sif

Tier Four: Professional

1. Emil Blonsky
2. Brock Rumlow - above Emil in his sleep. Middle to high end Elite level.
3. Jacques Duchamps
4. John Healy
5. Rance
6. Peggy Carter - low end Elite level to possibly middle end.
7. Rusty
8. Kebo
9. Will Simpson
10. Standard Hand Ninja
11. Maria Hill
12. Nick Fury
13. Sharon Carter
14. S.T.R.I.K.E. Agents

Tier Five: Proficient

• Luke Cage
• Red Skull
• James Rhodes
• Mike Peterson
• Lance Hunter
• Lincoln Campbell
• Alphonso Mackenzie
• Antoine Triplett
• Stephen Strange
• Wilson Fisk
• Lorelei
• Willis Stryker
• Akela Amador
• Carl Creel
• Alicia Whitley
• Sam Wilson
• Tony Stark
• Shades
• Robbie Reyes
• Lvl. 5 S.H.I.E.L.D. Agents

Tier Six: Rookie

• Cornell Stokes
• Luis
• Claire Temple
• Trish Walker
• Leopold Fitz - dude should be last on here.
• Hope Van Dyne - She is proficient in fighting
• Scott Lang - He is proficient in fighting.
• Happy Hogan
• Jemma Simmons
• Jessica Jones
• Wanda Maximoff
• Peter Parker

@superhero24: I agree with most of that. I don't think Gao should be grandmaster since she shows no actual pure skill, just chi powers. And Elektra should be in the top spot for master level, if not in the grandmaster level. I also think Thor should be the top spot in the elite section since he was stomping the best SHIELD agents but maybe wait til Ragnarok to see how he does against Hela.

Also lmao at Fitz

@superhero24: What are Natasha's martial showings and/or statements that place her above Bobbi, May, and Ward?

Why would Bobbi be behind Stick? She kept up with a Kree that gave Lady Sif a good fight.

@rogueshadow: Agreed.

Netflix crew stepped their game up.

@the_magister:

She is clearly shown to be more skilled than the WS by the way she gets on top of him and starts hitting him. She also regularly fights superhuman characters like Chitauri and ultron bots. Stick is also an old dude, but he is capable of fighting Electra with one hand. He also is around Matt level in skill if not superior. The Kree aren't that much above humans. The Kree Reapers are the dangerous ones.

@jayc1324:

I agree with Thor.

@superhero24:

Widow might be more skilled than Bucky, and even that is a reach. Chitauri were cannon fodder, and so were the Ultron bots. She also defeated them primarily using gear and equipment, not via martial prowess.

Stick fighting Elektra with one hand is a very fair point, which I'll give you. But the notion that Kree aren't much above humans is blatantly false. Bobbi was knocking back a Kree with her attacks that had gone toe-to-toe with Lady Sif.

Is it bad that I laughed pretty hard when Iron Fist struck Madame Gao on her legs and she fell face first into the floor ?? It was just funny to see such an elderly woman "trip" like that, I´m still surprised at the actress´ agility to perform such stunts, something Sigourney Weaver couldn´t, or else we would have gotten some fight scenes with her.

He held his own at best. Sif was beating him all over the place. He had that memory staff to help out a ton. He also wasnt the best fighter. Ultron bots are fodder, but fodder that can lift up cars and smash through concrete. Chitauri are also able to challenge Cap a little in strength. You need tons of skill to use your equipment when surrounded and outnumbered 10 - 1 by superhuman enemies. She also does her flip techniques on both of them as well.

She got him from behind immediately after he defeated Agent 13.

With gear. She never fought them in H2H.

The Luke fighting Murakami was in the same scene Matt was taking him and Bakuto on at the same time they just switched who they were fighting. But after that when Murakami has a blade to Danny he reverses it and then KO's him if I remember correctly.

True Danny is way too emotional all the time

Yea I'd probably agree with your rankings

Elektra was going easy on Matt the whole season. She would have killed him easily if she really wanted to

Elektra>Matt>Danny>Cap>=T'Challa>Bucky.