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#152 Posted by rogueshadow (29254 posts) - - Show Bio

Okay, so how about these guys:

  • Danny Rand
  • Davos
  • Colleen Wing
  • Bakuto
  • Zhou Cheng

And how do we rate the 'fodder' in Iron Fist? Gao's swordswoman guard was able to straight up beat Colleen in a swordfight, even the hatchet gang were doing spin kicks and jumping off walls. The only real fodder seemed to be those security guards and even they were mercenaries of some sort.

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#153 Posted by uugieboogie (13063 posts) - - Show Bio

@rogueshadow: I think all in that list should be in Tier 2. Since we don't have really solid feats for them I would put the hands best warriors in Tier 3 maybe, if not the bottom of 2.

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#154 Posted by rogueshadow (29254 posts) - - Show Bio

@uugieboogie: Yeah, the fight in the Hand compound cements Davos as a Master for me. Bakuto, as a Hand leader, should be comparable to Nobu. Also, I've watched it back a couple of times and I definitely think Bakuto used a pressure point attack on Ward.

Also, was Nobu actually Hand leader? Stick only ever said he's pretty high up and Nobu said he has those he must answer to; do you think Bakuto is of a higher rank?

I'd love to see what Lei-Kung (Danny's master) is like.

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#155 Posted by uugieboogie (13063 posts) - - Show Bio

@uugieboogie: Yeah, the fight in the Hand compound cements Davos as a Master for me. Bakuto, as a Hand leader, should be comparable to Nobu. Also, I've watched it back a couple of times and I definitely think Bakuto used a pressure point attack on Ward.

Also, was Nobu actually Hand leader? Stick only ever said he's pretty high up and Nobu said he has those he must answer to; do you think Bakuto is of a higher rank?

I'd love to see what Lei-Kung (Danny's master) is like.

I honestly don't think Nobu was a leader. IMO I think he was just a high ranking soldier below Gao, I think he would be around the same level of Bakuto if not lower (in terms of skill). I actually think Bakuto is higher ranking than Nobu. Bakuto actually had his own section of the Hand and wasn't below/under Gao like Nobu clearly was.

Where would you put Zhou Cheng and the warriors Danny faced in Episode 6?

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#156 Posted by rogueshadow (29254 posts) - - Show Bio

@rogueshadow said:

@uugieboogie: Yeah, the fight in the Hand compound cements Davos as a Master for me. Bakuto, as a Hand leader, should be comparable to Nobu. Also, I've watched it back a couple of times and I definitely think Bakuto used a pressure point attack on Ward.

Also, was Nobu actually Hand leader? Stick only ever said he's pretty high up and Nobu said he has those he must answer to; do you think Bakuto is of a higher rank?

I'd love to see what Lei-Kung (Danny's master) is like.

I honestly don't think Nobu was a leader. IMO I think he was just a high ranking soldier below Gao, I think he would be around the same level of Bakuto if not lower (in terms of skill). I actually think Bakuto is higher ranking than Nobu. Bakuto actually had his own section of the Hand and wasn't below/under Gao like Nobu clearly was.

Where would you put Zhou Cheng and the warriors Danny faced in Episode 6?

Yeah, I was thinking that. Bakuto seems to have a lot more power than Nobu did to me. And if he were a leader, you'd think Stick or Elektra would've said so.

Master tier, but I expect people will contest that due to their lack of feats.

As we see more technique and technical skill brought to the fore (leopard punch, Danny saying he mastered so many styles, seeing the skill of the Hand members etc.) my perception of the MCU tiering system is starting to change. I think some people lower on Master might need to get pushed down into elite to be honest.

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#157 Posted by uugieboogie (13063 posts) - - Show Bio

@rogueshadow: Who do you think should go down a tier? IMO I don't rate Ward on the same level I use to. Who was Daniel Drumm?

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#158 Posted by rogueshadow (29254 posts) - - Show Bio
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#159 Edited by AngelJax (11653 posts) - - Show Bio

@rogueshadow: Danny is Master tier for sure. I'd put him above May probably.

Colleen is Elite, anywhere below Daisy or Elektra is fair I think.

The Hand in Iron Fist were above the Hand we saw in Daredevil, so They're above "Standard Hand Ninja". I'd put them at the bottom of Elite.

I'll come back to you on Devos and Zhou.

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#160 Posted by rogueshadow (29254 posts) - - Show Bio
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#161 Posted by FirstOlympian (694 posts) - - Show Bio

One thing to note is for one of those "Best fighters" of The Hand, Danny had to beat. The final one that was using different weapons seemingly took down a room full of people so fast most of them didn't even stand up.

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#162 Edited by BruceRogers (17311 posts) - - Show Bio
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#163 Posted by rogueshadow (29254 posts) - - Show Bio

One thing to note is for one of those "Best fighters" of The Hand, Danny had to beat. The final one that was using different weapons seemingly took down a room full of people so fast most of them didn't even stand up.

That... is an excellent point.

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#164 Posted by AngelJax (11653 posts) - - Show Bio

@rogueshadow: Devos, Bakuto and Zhou were all masters. I'll argue that Devos and Bakuto were better than Matt

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#165 Edited by rogueshadow (29254 posts) - - Show Bio

@angeljax said:

@rogueshadow: Devos, Bakuto and Zhou were all masters. I'll argue that Devos and Bakuto were better than Matt

Interesting. Not sure about Davos right now, I'll say that while his fight against Danny was impressive, I feel that despite Danny initiating the fight, Davos was way more bloodlusted than Danny. He hates him and even when he tried to abuse Danny's trust he got whooped. Danny was pissed off sure, but he was going at it like when somebody fights with their brother, Davos was going all out against his most hated enemy.

Still, he's a master for sure, the way Davos he was tearing through the Hand and the speed of his attacks, fighting multiple individuals from multiple angles simultaneously at high speeds, very impressive. That double knockout jump was awesome, and I liked how in this fight the Hand did what would actually happen in real life and utterly dogpiled them.

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#167 Posted by buildhare (8649 posts) - - Show Bio

@rogueshadow:

I really doubt Bakuto outranks Nobu, Nobu got the Resurrection/immortal treatment and Bakuto hasn't.

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#168 Posted by AngelJax (11653 posts) - - Show Bio

@buildhare: Maybe in rank, sure but Bakuto definitely seemed like he was the better fighter.

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#169 Edited by rogueshadow (29254 posts) - - Show Bio

@buildhare said:

@rogueshadow:

I really doubt Bakuto outranks Nobu, Nobu got the Resurrection/immortal treatment and Bakuto hasn't.

I got the impression that he was implying he was extremely old when he said that his sword has killed kings, emperors, lords and tyrants. I'm also pretty sure that he came back from being stabbed by Davos too, Colleen assumed the Hand had taken him, but Danny notes that 'Harold came back from the dead' and we are left to assume Bakuto did as well.

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#170 Posted by uugieboogie (13063 posts) - - Show Bio

@rogueshadow:

I really doubt Bakuto outranks Nobu, Nobu got the Resurrection/immortal treatment and Bakuto hasn't.

Meachum has the treatment too and he was just a pawn. And I think Bakuto does have it, how else did he survive and escape after being stabbed in his heart?

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#171 Posted by uugieboogie (13063 posts) - - Show Bio
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#172 Posted by rogueshadow (29254 posts) - - Show Bio
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#173 Posted by Supermanwithatan01 (10235 posts) - - Show Bio

@rogueshadow: agreed we don't know if Bakuto had been brought back or is older than Nobu. We didn't even find out about Nobu until Daredevil season 2 and I have a feeling Bakuto will be back.

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#174 Posted by Pipxeroth (9227 posts) - - Show Bio

I'd honestly put Danny as the most skilled person in the MCU right now.

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#175 Posted by Supermanwithatan01 (10235 posts) - - Show Bio

This thread is a tier-base for MCU characters based solely on their skill in close quarters combat, especially unarmed combat.

Essentially, this thread is to discuss the skill of characters in the MCU, the tier they are in and how the tiers should be constructed/defined.

Tier One: Grandmaster

  • Lei Kung (based on statemets personally ?)
  • Iron Fist Danny (with his emotions purged)
  • Madam Gao (?)

Tier Two: Master

  1. Gamora
  2. Steve Rogers
  3. Iron Fist Danny (conflicted)
  4. Zhao Cheng
  5. Davos
  6. Melinda May
  7. Matt Murdock
  8. King T'Challa
  9. Kabuto
  10. Nobu Yoshioka
  11. Bobbi Morse
  12. The Ancient One
  13. Stick*
  14. Colleen Wing
  15. James Barnes
  16. Grant Ward
  17. Natasha Romanoff
  18. Giyera
  19. Daniel Drumm
  20. Kaecilius

*Tentatively

Tier Three: Elite

  1. Daisy Johnson
  2. Clint Barton
  3. Elektra Natchios
  4. Thor Odinson
  5. Georges Batroc
  6. Frank Castle
  7. Marcus Scarlotti
  8. Phil Coulson
  9. Kara Palamas
  10. Anton Ivanov
  11. Loki Laufeyson
  12. Lady Sif

Tier Four: Professional

  1. Emil Blonsky
  2. Brock Rumlow
  3. Jacques Duchamps
  4. John Healy
  5. Rance
  6. Kebo
  7. Will Simpson
  8. Peggy Carter
  9. Standard Hand Ninja
  10. Maria Hill
  11. Nick Fury
  12. Sharon Carter
  13. S.T.R.I.K.E. Agents

Tier Five: Proficient

  • Luke Cage
  • Red Skull
  • James Rhodes
  • Mike Peterson
  • Lance Hunter
  • Lincoln Campbell
  • Alphonso Mackenzie
  • Antoine Triplett
  • Stephen Strange
  • Wilson Fisk
  • Lorelei
  • Willis Stryker
  • Akela Amador
  • Carl Creel
  • Alicia Whitley
  • Sam Wilson
  • Tony Stark
  • Shades
  • Robbie Reyes
  • Lvl. 5 S.H.I.E.L.D. Agents

Tier Six: Rookie

  • Cornell Stokes
  • Luis
  • Claire Temple
  • Trish Walker
  • Leopold Fitz
  • Hope Van Dyne
  • Scott Lang
  • Happy Hogan
  • Jemma Simmons
  • Jessica Jones
  • Wanda Maximoff
  • Peter Parker

I added in a few, what are your thoughts?

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#176 Edited by AngelJax (11653 posts) - - Show Bio

@supermanwithatan01: I agree with who's in each tier, not the order just yet. But Colleen isn't master tier. At least not yet. For me, she's Top 4/5 of the Elite Tier

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#177 Edited by rogueshadow (29254 posts) - - Show Bio

@supermanwithatan01:

  • I decided not to factor the GOTG characters until we see them interact with Earth based characters. They are just so removed that it's difficult to gauge them as compared to Earth based characters. Thor we got to see as a human and we've seen Sif interact with people on AoS, we have a better baseline by which to gauge Asgardians.
  • I agree with @pipxeroth, I think lucid Danny is the most skilled in the MCU right now, but I don't think we should consider full Iron Fist Danny, his speed was crazy amped with chi.
  • I'm expecting Lei-Kung to be the best when he shows up but I'd like to see him first. I would like to see him casually throttle Davos with one hand.
  • Good to see Zhou Cheng so high, I felt he gave Danny a better fight than anybody in the entire series, but I think he might have been reading Danny's chi like his comic counterpart, not sure how he just knew Danny was the Iron Fist. Until we know for sure we should just assume it's skill.
  • I think you meant Bakuto, lol, mixing Naruto there.
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#178 Edited by GeorgeWBush (11830 posts) - - Show Bio

I haven't seen anything placing Bakuto over Nobu at all. Bakuto's done nothing that would lead me to believe he could fight Elektra/Daredevil at once, he lost to Danny Rand twice, was struggling with Colleen, and was largely just in charge of organizing people into the Hands ranks. Nobu repeatedly besting Matt, fighting evenly with him, and all of his feats from Season 2 impress me more than anyone in Iron Fist barring Danny himself who is likely better. Zhou Cheng drawing blood and using his combat style to confound Danny impresses me more than Bakuto getting his ass kicked in every fight he was in.

I'd also rank Colleen as greater than Elektra or Stick probably within distance of Matt/Punisher, and Danny himself being a peer of Melinda May and comparable to the Super Soldiers. I'm not sure where to rank Davos yet, his feats weren't really all that great either

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#179 Edited by rogueshadow (29254 posts) - - Show Bio

I have a feeling that a significant number of those Hand foot-soldiers in DDS2 were teens/young-adults like Darryl/the other people at the compound and the younger Hand ninja Elektra murdered.

We'll probably have to wait until the Defenders to find out.

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#180 Posted by uugieboogie (13063 posts) - - Show Bio
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#181 Posted by Amnesiak (3638 posts) - - Show Bio

  • Good to see Zhou Cheng so high, I felt he gave Danny a better fight than anybody in the entire series

Same here, he was my favorite part of the show. This fight was awesome !

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#182 Posted by Supermanwithatan01 (10235 posts) - - Show Bio

@uugieboogie: I thought about it for awhile, but i decided she'd be a master based on others in that tier. I just added her in and it auto changed the numbers I'm on mobile so I couldn't change it. I really didn't have a particular order though I do believe Cap and Danny are tied in regards to skill.

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#183 Posted by Supermanwithatan01 (10235 posts) - - Show Bio

@rogueshadow: I can agree with that lol and yeah my bad that's who I meant.

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#184 Posted by DSTREET45 (5280 posts) - - Show Bio

Well for starters I'm keeping Gao at Grandmaster. Again like in Daredevil S1 she only really had like one feat but she was able to send Danny flying with a wave of her hand. Kinda dissapointed that she didn't show much but I guess the mystery of how dangerous she can really be if she actually tries makes her that much more interesting.

Danny at his average level is probably number 1 at the Master Tier. Tore through skilled fodder with ease at the regular. Fought Hand leaders.

Not sure if I'd put Bakuto over Nobu.

Colleen is probably low Master Tier. Like Elektra I felt like Colleen had some low showings (cage fight) but she's more than made up for those showings throughout the Season. I'd put her above Widow.

Zhou Cheng is likely higher than most of Danny's enemies.

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#185 Posted by Thorthunder98 (6677 posts) - - Show Bio

I think standard Danny is more skilled than Steve if you imagine their stats were equalised Danny would win but yea full Iron Fist Danny is grandmaster

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#186 Edited by Black_Arrow (10258 posts) - - Show Bio

Gao is quite certainly Grand Master, her mastery of Chi is above everybody else. If she was young, She would be able to wreck everybody.

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#187 Posted by rogueshadow (29254 posts) - - Show Bio

I agree about Gao. One of my favourite characters too.

"Anger is a gift, Mr. Rand, if you know how to control it. It would be my privilege to teach you."

How would people rank these human fodder?

  1. Hand/Chaste Elite - Able to give Colleen, Elektra and Davos trouble.
  2. Hand Foot Soldier - Easily beat two Security guards, display impressive skill and agility
  3. Hand Recruits – Extensively trained, best students in their dojo, seemingly able to earn good money at fight clubs, displayed impressive skill
  4. S.T.R.I.K.E. Agent – High ranking S.H.I.E.L.D. team, selected to capture Captain America. Brock Rumlow was a member.
  5. Triad/Hatchet Gang – Displayed impressive agility, speed and skill and were shown to best the Yakuza in cqc.
  6. Yakuza – Displayed impressive agility, speed and skill
  7. Standard Hydra/S.H.I.E.L.D. Agents
  8. Policemen/Street Thugs

That's my ranking. Not sure about the S.T.R.I.K.E. Agents, I might be overrating them.

Plus any others you can think of.

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#188 Edited by AngelJax (11653 posts) - - Show Bio

@rogueshadow: That ranking is pretty damn good. Although, personally I'd switch the Yakuza and Hatchet gang.

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#189 Posted by rogueshadow (29254 posts) - - Show Bio

@angeljax: Towards the end of episode 7, we did see the Hatchet gang take on the Yakuza and one of the Hatchet gang beat a Yakuza member in cqc pretty decisively. I felt that sort of established them as being at least a bit better.

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#190 Posted by sinikettu (2629 posts) - - Show Bio

@supermanwithatan01:

  • I decided not to factor the GOTG characters until we see them interact with Earth based characters. They are just so removed that it's difficult to gauge them as compared to Earth based characters. Thor we got to see as a human and we've seen Sif interact with people on AoS, we have a better baseline by which to gauge Asgardians.

The only reliable gauge we have on GOTG team and Shield agents is Vin-tak the Kree and Star-lord but we don't really have anything to verify if Vin-tak was in fact skilled fighter as a Kree (to compare with Ronan whose clearly on the upper scale of Kree) or not and same goes for Peter who isn't fully Human and his possibly inhuman durability.

So, yeah it's probably better to leave them out of these equations until at least GOTG-2 has arrived to theaters to give us more material for ranking.

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#191 Posted by AngelJax (11653 posts) - - Show Bio

@sinikettu: Vin-Tak went to to toe with Lady Sif and came out on top thanks to his weapon. He must have a degree of skill.

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#192 Edited by rogueshadow (29254 posts) - - Show Bio

@angeljax said:

@sinikettu: Vin-Tak went to to toe with Lady Sif and came out on top thanks to his weapon. He must have a degree of skill.

In fairness, Sif landed the first blow - what would've been a death blow, it just so happened that she hit his Nitrogen canister which exposed her for long enough for him to tag her. But he did reasonably well so I agree he must've been somewhat skilled.

Still pretty tough to see how they compare with the GotG based on that though.

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#193 Posted by Thorthunder98 (6677 posts) - - Show Bio

Tier One: Grandmaster

  • Lei Kung(?)
  • Danny Rand (Full Iron Fist)
  • Madame Gao

Tier Two: Master

  1. Danny Rand (standard)
  2. Steve Rogers
  3. Zhou Cheng
  4. Melinda May
  5. Matt Murdock
  6. Davos
  7. King T'challa
  8. Bakuto*
  9. Nobu Yoshioka
  10. Colleen Wing
  11. Bobbi Morse
  12. The Ancient One
  13. Stick*
  14. James Barnes
  15. Grant Ward
  16. Natasha Romanoff
  17. Giyera
  18. Daniel Drumm
  19. Kaecilius

That's how I'd put those characters into the master tier but still unsure about Colleen and Bakuto and whether Bakuto is above Nobu

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#194 Posted by AngelJax (11653 posts) - - Show Bio
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#195 Posted by Thorthunder98 (6677 posts) - - Show Bio

@angeljax: I'm mainly basing it off how well she did with Bakuto, but she could be lower yea as could Bakuto I think but he's really hard to judge

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#196 Posted by rogueshadow (29254 posts) - - Show Bio

@thorthunder98:Interesting. That's solid, I might do a post soon as to why I feel Bakuto is quite impressive. I want to get as many opinions and reasons possible before I officially put the new characters in (though they can always be rearranged). That said I've put Lei Kung in GM with a (?) because I think we're pretty much all expecting him to be a Grandmaster.

Also, I only realised earlier that Danny's Iron Fist deactivated when he started to block Scythe with one hand... so, he wasn't using his chi there? In the show the two seem to go hand in hand.

Also, I think this is pretty important when considering Iron Fist's skill and would like to see what others think:

I was just rewatching the Davos vs Danny fight, while it didn't seem too one-sided on my first watch, when you break it down, it's very clear Danny is better, for starters, Danny lands 6 shots to Davos' 2 before he beats him.

Then when Davos abuses Danny's trust and pretends to yield, Danny quickly recovers and stomps him:

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  • And let's keep in mind that Davos has developed an intense hatred for Danny at this point. Despite initiating the fight (after being goaded and told things would be better if Danny had died), Danny was only annoyed whereas Davos was borderline murderous here.
  • Also, this is only a day or two after the stab wound from Bakuto IIRC.
  • Also consider that Danny did this to one of Bakuto's bodyguards:
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Whereas both Colleen and Davos had major problems dealing with one of the other bodyguards each.

Just thought I'd point out Danny's decisive superiority to Davos considering Davos' high skill level as displayed at the Hand compound, which was a pretty incredible feat for them both, especially considering IF's grievous wound.

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#197 Posted by AngelJax (11653 posts) - - Show Bio

@thorthunder98: In fairness it was a sword duel and while impressive, doesn't really qualify since this gauntlet mainly gauges charcters in h2h skill

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#198 Edited by rogueshadow (29254 posts) - - Show Bio

@angeljax said:

@thorthunder98: In fairness it was a sword duel and while impressive, doesn't really qualify since this gauntlet mainly gauges charcters in h2h skill

As per the OP:

"This thread is a tier-base for MCU characters based solely on their skill in close quarters combat, especially unarmed combat."

So while unarmed combat is the focus, I'd encourage people to consider overall skill in close quarters combat and integrate it into their rankings. So Colleen's weapon proficiency/swordsmanship is definitely a factor in my opinion.

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#199 Posted by Thorthunder98 (6677 posts) - - Show Bio

@rogueshadow: Yea I think it's like the same with Gao he seems to be the main guy up in Kun Lun and if he trained Danny and he's old it seems only right he's a grandmaster and he seems to have special chi powers too when Davos was saying Lei Kung can restore Danny's chi

I feel like Bakuto should be really skilled but just the Colleen fight threw me a bit because I thought he should've made light work of her

And yea there seems to be a bit of a gap between Davos and Danny that's why I put him one below Matt as I'm not sure he's more skilled but he's definitely high up as he was also training to be the Iron Fist

Where do you think Colleen should be then?

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#200 Edited by rogueshadow (29254 posts) - - Show Bio

@thorthunder98: In fairness, he could have ended her at this point in my opinion, but arrogantly chose to slice her sword:

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I feel like he got cocky and paid the price. Well, sort of, he seemed to come back to life.

And Colleen was able to decimate four mercs with a practice sword:

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Unarmed I put her somewhere in elite, she'd lose to Daisy in my opinion though it would be a decent fight. With her sword skills considered maybe lower in master. @angeljax what do you think?

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