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#101 Edited by DSTREET45 (5280 posts) - - Show Bio

@angeljax said:

@dstreet45: @rogueshadow: Clint lost to Natashsa in the first Avengers.

I'll concede that Natasha hasn't really won a fair fight but the flims do or at least try to convey that Black Widow is slightly superior to him in combat due to her having the upperhand more often than not than he did in most of their fights. (on top of her having more feats)

But whenever she gets the upperhand there's usually context, i.e. Hawkeye and Widow talking in Civil War about them still being friends when Natasha continues attacking etc. I'm OK with Widow being slightly more skilled due to more having more feats in general to showcase her skill, but IMO Hawkeye hasn't taken a clear loss against her to make her outright superior to him in terms of film portrayal.

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#102 Posted by Owie (7175 posts) - - Show Bio

I think this is a pretty reasonable list. I would point out that Elektra was beating Stick in their fight, whatever that may say about their respective points on the rankings.

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#103 Posted by DSTREET45 (5280 posts) - - Show Bio
@owie said:

I think this is a pretty reasonable list. I would point out that Elektra was beating Stick in their fight, whatever that may say about their respective points on the rankings.

Stick is only there tentatively. Mainly due to his martial art knowledge transcending that of most of the people on this list I.E, being able to allow him to heal faster than a normal person and fight at a high level despite his age and hype of having more of such knowledge. Same goes for Madame Gao who only has one feat.

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#104 Edited by rogueshadow (29254 posts) - - Show Bio

Assuming there isn't some unknown context behind the Colleen Wing fight (i.e. those two fighters are champions or established as being really tough in some unseen way), this is a pretty interesting comparison:

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I think that this really highlights the difference between an elite combatant and a master.

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#105 Posted by rogueshadow (29254 posts) - - Show Bio

I was rewatching some Daredevil recently and honestly I think I agree with @thor_parker82 now, Matt might be the most skilled fighter at this point.

I also think Daisy needs reevaluating, I'm not exactly sure where she should go, but she's just such a beast at this point, it' s just feat after feat after feat:

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#106 Posted by AngelJax (11650 posts) - - Show Bio

Yeah, Daisy is at the top of elite at the very least. She may even transcend that tier in the near future.

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#107 Posted by rogueshadow (29254 posts) - - Show Bio

@angeljax said:

Yeah, Daisy is at the top of elite at the very least. She may even transcend that tier in the near future.

If the show can go another season I think she'll be in Master tier for sure.

What do you think of Colleen Wing? We haven't seen much with her yet, but based on that clip I'm not particularly impressed. I'm wondering if they're going to put more emphasis on her sword skills.

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#108 Posted by AngelJax (11650 posts) - - Show Bio

I really couldn't take the choreography seriously. But I'm pretty sure they're trying to pass Colleen off as an 'Elite' martial artists.

Bad stuntwork aside, Colleen's takedowns in the clip was pretty impressive and if she's consistent, she could be in the Master tier handidly.

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#109 Posted by PayneInTheAss (11481 posts) - - Show Bio

Uhh, I´m not feeling Kaecilius in the Master tier.

Not after he failed to fodderize a "noob" Strange.

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#110 Posted by AngelJax (11650 posts) - - Show Bio
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#111 Posted by rogueshadow (29254 posts) - - Show Bio

Uhh, I´m not feeling Kaecilius in the Master tier.

Not after he failed to fodderize a "noob" Strange.

That speaks more to Strange's skill to be honest, I got the impression he'd been in training for close to a year at that point.

See the discussion between Buildhare and myself in this thread for reference.

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#112 Posted by DSTREET45 (5280 posts) - - Show Bio

@rogueshadow: Honestly after the recent AoS episode I could see her being top Elite or even low Master tier.

I didn't expect her to improve in H2H much, if at all, after getting her powers but it seems like they're providing limits to how many times she could use her powers without her gauntlets, just to remind the audience that she's still badass without them.

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#113 Posted by AngelJax (11650 posts) - - Show Bio

@dstreet45: She's already been upgraded to the top of the Elites.

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#114 Edited by DSTREET45 (5280 posts) - - Show Bio

@angeljax: Yeah I just saw that. But I also think that she could maybe go even higher.

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#115 Edited by AngelJax (11650 posts) - - Show Bio

@dstreet45: Oh I agree. It seems like Daisy is only just now getting recognition. Even before the LMD arc I had her as top Elite, it's nice to see people agreeing with the sentiment. I'd say she's a low-tier Master but I can see why it might be pushing it a little.

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#116 Posted by rogueshadow (29254 posts) - - Show Bio

@angeljax said:

@dstreet45: Oh I agree. It seems like Daisy is only just now getting recognition. Even before the LMD arc I had her as top Elite, it's nice to see people agreeing with the sentiment. I'd say she's a low-tier Master but I can see why it might be pushing it a little.

I mean, I already had her second in elite tier, she was only behind Clint.

@rogueshadow: Honestly after the recent AoS episode I could see her being top Elite or even low Master tier.

I didn't expect her to improve in H2H much, if at all, after getting her powers but it seems like they're providing limits to how many times she could use her powers without her gauntlets, just to remind the audience that she's still badass without them.

It's also because she's OP at full power, she could solo those LMDs if she had the gauntlets.

Chloe Bennett really rocks the fight scenes, she's great at stunts.

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#117 Edited by AngelJax (11650 posts) - - Show Bio

Yeah, her fights are a genuine high point in the show for me. She's my favorite fighter to watch, just barely edging out Bobbi.

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#118 Posted by DSTREET45 (5280 posts) - - Show Bio
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#119 Posted by those_eyes (17291 posts) - - Show Bio

What about jessica jones? lol

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#120 Posted by AngelJax (11650 posts) - - Show Bio
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#121 Posted by those_eyes (17291 posts) - - Show Bio
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#122 Posted by foxerdes (10151 posts) - - Show Bio

Daisy had perfect development when it comes to hand to hand combat, that was something I more or less expected from Laurel.

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#123 Posted by PayneInTheAss (11481 posts) - - Show Bio

@rogueshadow: Ok, but now I´m forgetting the scene where Kae beats 6 guys.

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#124 Posted by rogueshadow (29254 posts) - - Show Bio
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#125 Edited by jao48 (465 posts) - - Show Bio

First, I must say this thread is gold.

But I have some thoughts about Cap's habilities. If you look at the other masters, most of them have trained their entire lives. Natasha is the top of the organization that can create children who fodderize SSR special agents. Elektra already fodderized professional fighters as a child. May studies martial arts since she was a kid. Barnes is training for almost a century. How much time Steve actually had to improve so much from that Brooklyn boy? If we count his time as a WWII soldier plus his modern missions, it wouldn't surpass five years. I think it's to much to put him as the very best master. His main feats involve his strengh and his shield in some way, and these are huge factors. Crossbones has never shown any good feats, and that armor only slowed him. It wasn't powered by any kind of electricity, it was just protecting metal, like Batman's mech suit. He wasnt stronger than Cap. That Iron Man feat is just PIS. Stark's suit was heavily nerfed, Steve had the upper hand mainly because of his shield and Bucky's metal arm. Fighting with Ultron was impressive, but again, he uses his shield and momentum all the time, and we don't know Ultron's strenght. He wasn't trying to kill him also. I feel that the best martial artist should be someone who doesn't trust in any weapon or power, and I just can't see Steve as a great master.

With that being said, I would rank the masters probably in that order:

  • Stick
  • Melinda May
  • Matt Murdock
  • Nobu
  • Bobbi Morse
  • Elektra
  • T'Chala
  • Grant Ward
  • James Barnes
  • Natasha Romanoff
  • Giyera
  • Steve Rogers

Haven't seen Doctor Strange, but The Ancient One should be somewhere up here by titles and implied feats, along with Gamora and Nebula.

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#126 Posted by PayneInTheAss (11481 posts) - - Show Bio

@rogueshadow: Ah, I missed all that stuff. I´ll take a look.

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#127 Posted by Thor_Parker82 (16116 posts) - - Show Bio

Peter Parker shouldn´t be last, and Scott Lang & Hope Van Dyne should be higher than Fitz in my opinion.

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#128 Posted by rogueshadow (29254 posts) - - Show Bio

Peter Parker shouldn´t be last, and Scott Lang & Hope Van Dyne should be higher than Fitz in my opinion.

Proficient and Rookie aren't ranked.

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#129 Posted by Thor_Parker82 (16116 posts) - - Show Bio

@thor_parker82 said:

Peter Parker shouldn´t be last, and Scott Lang & Hope Van Dyne should be higher than Fitz in my opinion.

Proficient and Rookie aren't ranked.

Oh, my bad then, hehe.

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#130 Posted by Thorthunder98 (6677 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't think Steve should be top of the masters tbh if you reduced his physicals he'd get beat by some of them like matt and may I feel like BP is more skilled than him and once the film is out we'll see his skill cemented more. We haven't actually seen Cap train or anything we don't know how he learned to fight, the others have trained their whole lives. I think maybe he should be max 3rd and May and Matt be moved up one each

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#131 Posted by rogueshadow (29254 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't think Steve should be top of the masters tbh if you reduced his physicals he'd get beat by some of them like matt and may I feel like BP is more skilled than him and once the film is out we'll see his skill cemented more. We haven't actually seen Cap train or anything we don't know how he learned to fight, the others have trained their whole lives. I think maybe he should be max 3rd and May and Matt be moved up one each

The Russos stated that he trained extensively with S.H.I.E.L.D. experts between A1 and TWS (two years). His borderline eidetic memory and superior processing likely increased his progression exponentially. I like to think it results in him peaking quickly, so he learns far more rapidly than others, but his actual ability still plateaus, whereas I don't think we've seen Matt's best yet.

I agree about BP.

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#132 Posted by Thorthunder98 (6677 posts) - - Show Bio

@rogueshadow: Ahhh okay that makes sense still the agents he learnt from can't have been the best in the world when they have agents like May, I can get how he would learn way quicker than everyone else but I don't see other shield agents being able to train him more skilled than May or Matt even with his advanced processing etc.

N yea I think after Panthers film he'll be clearly more skilled, I still currently think if Cap didn't have the shield BP would beat him h2h

Where do you think Iron Fist is going to be on the list top of master or maybe grandmaster?

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#133 Edited by rogueshadow (29254 posts) - - Show Bio

@rogueshadow: Ahhh okay that makes sense still the agents he learnt from can't have been the best in the world when they have agents like May, I can get how he would learn way quicker than everyone else but I don't see other shield agents being able to train him more skilled than May or Matt even with his advanced processing etc.

N yea I think after Panthers film he'll be clearly more skilled, I still currently think if Cap didn't have the shield BP would beat him h2h

Where do you think Iron Fist is going to be on the list top of master or maybe grandmaster?

Funny, as I was writing that I thought about the idea of May having been one of his trainers. That would have been cool. She was actually retired from field duty at the time though because of killing Eva Belyakov. In universe explanation would be that Fury asked her but she was so mentally scarred that she didn't want to be involved in fighting at all, even training. It's entirely possible, if not likely even, that he trained with Hawkeye and Black Widow, maybe Crossbones too. There are probably plenty of other high-tier S.H.I.E.L.D. Agents we just don't know of.

Yeah, I think either peak Master or Grandmaster for Iron Fist. Lei-Kung (Danny's master) should be a Grandmasters for sure though, as well as Fat Cobra and the Prince of Orphans.

Me personally, I think the Ancient One was a Grandmaster, we just didn't see that much of her.

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#134 Posted by Thorthunder98 (6677 posts) - - Show Bio

@rogueshadow: Hmm yea true could've been Ward too there are a lot of high tier shield agents tbf. Still I feel if Cap and May/ Matt had physicals equalised he couldn't beat them imo.

Yea that sounds about right if he's not the most skilled hero in mcu I'll be disapointed, and yea his master should definitely be a grandmaster, wonder if we'll see more from Gao aswell to put her up there.

Yea I agree the Ancient One had the potential to be one we just didn't see enough but then I guess we haven't seen much of Gao but just speculating I guess.

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#135 Posted by rogueshadow (29254 posts) - - Show Bio

@rogueshadow: Hmm yea true could've been Ward too there are a lot of high tier shield agents tbf. Still I feel if Cap and May/ Matt had physicals equalised he couldn't beat them imo.

Yea that sounds about right if he's not the most skilled hero in mcu I'll be disapointed, and yea his master should definitely be a grandmaster, wonder if we'll see more from Gao aswell to put her up there.

Yea I agree the Ancient One had the potential to be one we just didn't see enough but then I guess we haven't seen much of Gao but just speculating I guess.

Gao's tentatively in Grandmaster because she still has the capacity to show more feats and she basically oneshotted Matt in S1. The Ancient One however, is unlikely to appear again, at least in a physical form.

Rewatching DD fight scenes recently and I personally think Matt, by the end of Season 2, is probably more skilled, but Cap has a lot of great feats like beating and/or contending with T'challa and Bucky as well as whooping Batroc and contending with people well above him physically, like Ultron, War Machine and Iron Man. I think Matt is going to receive further training from Stick and will be very impressive in the Defenders.

It is actually possible for Matt to get a boost in Iron Fist, if the Hand show up and get better feats, it will provide further context and make him more impressive. Same goes for Elektra, Stick and Nobu.

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#136 Edited by Thorthunder98 (6677 posts) - - Show Bio

@rogueshadow: Yea Ancient One can't get anymore feats which is sad because she was a beast from what we saw.

Guess you're right about him contending with people above his class that does make his skill seem more valuable tbf.

Matt will probably become more skilled yea, he'll need to be impressive with Iron Fist on the team he can't be way below him. Yea true if the hand ninjas get better feats that boosts the DD crew feats a bit.

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#137 Posted by WF_Mxyzptlk (6794 posts) - - Show Bio

Steve Rodgers that high is an abomination.

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#138 Posted by Thorthunder98 (6677 posts) - - Show Bio

@rogueshadow: Don't you think Coulson is a bit high shouldn't Loki and Sif be above him

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#139 Posted by rogueshadow (29254 posts) - - Show Bio

@thorthunder98: He got the better of Kara Palamas:

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Who gave May a rough time. Plus there's his fight in A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to Thor's hammer where he fodderises armed gunmen with a bag of flour IIRC.

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#140 Posted by js_the_beast (936 posts) - - Show Bio

I feel like people are downplaying Cap's skill...

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#141 Posted by StarDance (859 posts) - - Show Bio

Where's Black Widow?

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#142 Edited by DSTREET45 (5280 posts) - - Show Bio
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#143 Posted by AngelJax (11650 posts) - - Show Bio

I feel like people are downplaying Cap's skill...

How? He's the highest-ranking fighter here.

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#144 Posted by js_the_beast (936 posts) - - Show Bio
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#145 Posted by AngelJax (11650 posts) - - Show Bio

@js_the_beast: Steve is ranked #1 in the Masters Tier. He's literally the top skillful fighter here based on a consensus.

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#146 Posted by js_the_beast (936 posts) - - Show Bio

@angeljax: Consensus? No, I don't think so. Plenty of people would argue Matt, May, Bobbi are more skilled then Cap including myself. Cap is not the most skilled at all.

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#147 Edited by AngelJax (11650 posts) - - Show Bio

@js_the_beast: If the consensus that Cap isn't the most skilled then he wouldn't be number 1.

I don't think Cap is number 1 either, but a lot of people do and justifiably so.

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#148 Posted by jayc1324 (26422 posts) - - Show Bio

I am not entirely on board with the ordering of the master tier but this is an awesome tier system overall

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#149 Posted by RukelnikovFTW (6133 posts) - - Show Bio

@angeljax said:

@js_the_beast: Steve is ranked #1 in the Masters Tier. He's literally the top skillful fighter here based on a consensus.

Its not a consensus, but its also true that he's not, in any way, underestimated

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#150 Edited by DSTREET45 (5280 posts) - - Show Bio

Steve being #1 is fine. IMO it's between him, Matt, May, and Bobbi.