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#1152 Edited by ANTHP2000 (26969 posts) - - Show Bio

@arcus1: @the_magister: I feel like it's asking way too much to have Natasha fight a person with the raw quantity of feats of someone like May - it's impossible. There's litteraly no human in the movies with this quantity, but I know for a fact that the writers don't care about this. They want to portray Natasha as a May level combatant, they do it. Widow has an actual win over an established (with a very impressive showing against one of the most impressive metahumans in the MCU) fighter. They usually don't even have high level humans BEAT each other in the MCU, but they showed her do it. I don't really need her to fight someone with 5 seasons worth of feats to say she can at least give an excellent fight to any martial artist in her universe.

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#1153 Edited by The_Magister (13972 posts) - - Show Bio

@anthp2000: At this point it just comes down to the different stuff we value, I don't know if there's much debate to be had. I think being a great match for May > beating Clint in a good fight. And yea I agree that Natasha can give anyone a really good fight, I just don't see her matching Ward overall. His combination of stats and skill is just too formidable imo, it's one of the best such combos in MCU.

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#1154 Posted by ANTHP2000 (26969 posts) - - Show Bio
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#1156 Posted by Arcus1 (27775 posts) - - Show Bio

@arcus1: Check out my edited list. Honestly my appraisal of Ward's h2h went down a bit on my AoS rewatch, maybe that's why I think Nat's a bit more skilled now. I said this on Discord and I can't put any better than I already did: "He's definitely skilled, really skilled. But I think he's supposed to be a brilliant soldier & operative more than he is supposed to be a pure martial arts prodigy."

That being said, I think he beats Nat by feats, his overall capability as a fighter is too good by feats tbh.

My appraisal of Davos and the supersoldiers also went down tbh.

...did you just rewatch AoS since making that initial list?

And yeah, I don't think he was intended to be a pure martial artist the way other high tiers are. No disrespect to him (martial arts are not the only valuable combat skill)

By feats, it'd be reasonable to argue for him beating Nat. He'd have to exploit his physical advantage like he did against May (though I think Nat's supposed to be more physical than May-she's younger and not as small

Davos is kinda difficult, imo, cause he relies so much on scaling from Danny, and even then his status compared to Danny is kinda contextual (ie how much does Danny hold back against him, even maybe without meaning to?). Between that and his relative lack of feats, I'm fine with him being lower

I wouldn't have Daisy that far above the supersoldiers, especially if you're arguing that she's low level superhuman (not sure what your current stance is on that issue). From a story perspective, I don't think it would make any sense for her to be multiple tiers above the likes of Cap and Panther, both of whom have been training since before she learned to throw a punch, have better statements regarding their skill levels (statements about being "the best soldiers in the world-in reference to Cap's upgraded h2h skills in Winter Soldier, I believe" or "trained to the highest levels of fighting"-not sufficient in isolation, but helpful, and I'm looking for the exact interviews I'm thinking of for context), and feats against other skilled fighters (mainly Bucky, but also each other). Based on feats, I'm comfortable saying Daisy's comparable with them, but I have a hard time seeing them as being much lower. Plus, if we say Daisy's superhuman, that takes away from her skill, since the majority of her most impressive skill showings are her fights against superhumans (fighting superhumans is less impressive if you're also a superhuman)

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#1157 Edited by The_Magister (13972 posts) - - Show Bio

@arcus1: No, I've been rewatching it steadily over some time now.

I think Nat and May sort of are equal physically from a holistic standpoint (meaning, taking into account both feats and logic); May has the superior showings while Natasha is more youthful. I think it pretty much balances out in the end if you look at it that way.

Though, May is actually a bit taller and has more toned muscle (the fact that Ming Na Wen has years of dedicated conditioning from martial arts while ScarJo doesn't helps in that regard). But either way, both are in peak physical shape so I don't think it matters much on-paper.

If I had to argue one way more confidently by showings, I'd back May for sure. On-paper, doubt there's really a noticeable difference.

Regarding Daisy, I don't think the writers themselves know if they want her to be superhuman or not. LOL.

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#1158 Posted by ANTHP2000 (26969 posts) - - Show Bio

Magister should be above the Grandmaster tier. He's already argued he's a better martial artist than 616 Daredevil.

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#1159 Posted by Arcus1 (27775 posts) - - Show Bio

@arcus1: No, I've been rewatching it steadily over some time now.

I think Nat and May sort of are equal physically from a holistic standpoint (meaning, taking into account both feats and logic); May has the superior showings while Natasha is more youthful. I think it pretty much balances out in the end if you look at it that way.

Though, May is actually a bit taller and has more toned muscle (the fact that Ming Na Wen has years of dedicated conditioning from martial arts while ScarJo doesn't helps in that regard). But either way, both are in peak physical shape so I don't think it matters much on-paper.

If I had to argue one way more confidently by showings, I'd back May for sure. On-paper, doubt there's really a noticeable difference.

Regarding Daisy, I don't think the writers themselves know if they want her to be superhuman or not. LOL.

Yeah, I'd expect Ming Na Wen to be more physical than Scarlett Johansson

Based on showings, May definitely has an edge by virtue of sheer quantity

I know I've said this before, but I think if the writers wanted Daisy to be superhuman, they would have said something by now, but they haven't. But a stats boost would also explain some of her feats, and the Inhuman aspect makes it a slight possibility (unlike most other street levelers who have unexpectedly high physicals). Doesn't help that almost all of the reasoning for her being superhuman comes from her feats against superhumans, which makes things harder to determine (is she fighting superhumans well cause she's just that she skilled, or is she herself superhuman?) Now that she went and got the Centipede serum, we'll never know (unless she gets depowered).

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#1162 Posted by The_Magister (13972 posts) - - Show Bio

@anthp2000: @arcus1: Changed my list again, I think Bobbi > Matt > May in unarmed skill now. I think @paytience brought up good points for Bobbi. Also I looked back at her feat against Ward/Kara, and I'm continually more impressed with it. @rogueshadow I know you think May >>> Bobbi, but IDK man...

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#1163 Posted by Arcus1 (27775 posts) - - Show Bio
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#1165 Edited by The_Magister (13972 posts) - - Show Bio

@arcus1: You're gonna be mad, but I think Matt and May are dead even now... you know what, Imma stop this because I legit can't decide on my tierings

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#1166 Edited by Greysentinel365 (6199 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_magister: Pretty much all Davos has is being relative to Colleen and Danny. Also not related to what I was saying.

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#1167 Posted by Arcus1 (27775 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_magister: lol

In terms of pure technical ability, I can handle them being even

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#1168 Edited by The_Magister (13972 posts) - - Show Bio

@anthp2000: @rogueshadow: @greysentinel365: @arcus1: Ok. IDK where I stand exactly, since I've created like 210938489392 new lists. But I do think the masters are:

  • Matt
  • Elektra
  • Danny
  • May
  • Davos
  • Natasha
  • Ward
  • Bobbi
  • Daisy
  • Steve
  • T'Challa
  • Giyera

IMO these are the true hand to hand masters by feats and credentials. Mostly feats, but also credentials factored in. Not sure how to place the Five Fingers of the Hand! They seem good but they didn't live up to their hype IMO. As far as Scarlotti from AoS goes, not sure he deserves a place. Unlike with Giyera, we never saw Scarlotti without his weapon of choice.

Right below the masters would be Bucky.

The masters list is in no particular order... I find myself too divided on how to gauge skill nowadays, so I've given up. I've read various books like the works of Nietzsche, Plato, and Sun Tzu. But to no avail.

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#1169 Posted by Greysentinel365 (6199 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_magister: So Cap is here but Bucky and Panther who were his equals aren't??

Scarlotti basically replicated Giyera's performance even after May disarmed him. He should be here.

Clint (with staff) should be on here as well.

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#1170 Posted by ANTHP2000 (26969 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_magister:

I also think that if you asked the writers who are the best if you deprive them of their toys and weapons, they'd list all these guys. But at the same time, I think T'Challa is supposed to be in there as well - w/the herb at least. I think his performance against Bucky in the CIA was meant to highlight hid level of unarmed martial arts if anything, and even feat-wise, he's comparable to Steve.

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#1171 Posted by The_Magister (13972 posts) - - Show Bio

@anthp2000: @greysentinel365: I did edit it and add T'Challa. As far as Bucky goes, I'd have him in high elite just below these guys.

And I'll rewatch the Scarlotti fight.

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#1172 Posted by RBT (27800 posts) - - Show Bio

It's painful to see Matt and May in the same category.

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#1173 Edited by The_Magister (13972 posts) - - Show Bio
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#1174 Posted by DSTREET45 (5280 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_magister: I'd add Bucky to that list. He was stated by the Russo Bros to be Cap's equal in both stats and skill several times in tye Director Comentary of TWS. If Cap's most highly trained soldier, Bucky is the most highly trained assassin.

And IIRC someone posted screenshots of Bucky landing several hits on T'Challa in the airport fight. Then there's all of the times he fought Cap on near even ground.

I'd also include the Fingers of the Hand along with Nobu but I'll probably give my reasoning for that later.

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#1175 Posted by Subline (7882 posts) - - Show Bio
  1. Stick.
  2. Daredevil.
  3. Black Sky.
  4. Iron Fist.
  5. Steel Serpent.
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#1176 Posted by Amcu (16674 posts) - - Show Bio

Bump.

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#1177 Posted by The_Magister (13972 posts) - - Show Bio

@amcu: Rogue's said on Discord he doesn't care about updating this anymore, he doesn't see it as the same universe anymore lol

He really hates that the executives try to push the "it's all connected" narrative when it's not

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#1178 Posted by TheSuperor (6686 posts) - - Show Bio
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#1179 Posted by The_Magister (13972 posts) - - Show Bio

@thesuperor: Yeah using in-universe logic to rank everyone is difficult when they're in entirely different realities