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#51 Posted by DSTREET45 (5280 posts) - - Show Bio

I rewatched and Stick does catch up with the Black Sky, however, I'm wondering exactly how that worked out. It seems likely that his more refined senses allowed him to trail the car across NYC rather than that he straight up caught up to it. However, when Matt gets to his flat, Stick's already there. It's possible that they simply drove near to Matt's, I don't think Hell's Kitchen is all that big.

It has a decent size population of 45,000+ people based on a quick google search, but yeah I also don't think it's very big in terms of area (around 0.841 sq mi or 2.18 sq km).

I'm not sure, I don't think we can really call that a speed feat though, too many possibilities.

I personally take it at face value. Being able to heal wounds faster than normal via meditation seems pretty far-fetched itself but it's apparently legit. Nobu is immortal to an extent (was also rumored to have lived 3 lifetimes) and Hand ninjas were brought back from the dead (Elektra herself is being prepped for that). Being able to turn back the hands of time and having the physicals to catch up to a getaway car, even within a small area, shouldn't be too out there considering everything else.

He even told Matt that meditation makes you "way stronger, more focused, and even heal your wounds faster."

Not sure, I feel like he should be more skilled than Matt, Steve and so on, but it's difficult to say. I hope we get a bit more from him in the Defenders.

Agreed.

Yeah, towards the end Selvig says that despite the mind control, he was cognizant to some degree and built in a safety to cut the power source.

Huh. Interesting. I guess Hawkeye could've been resisting but I was thinking that he couldn't based on his conversation with Natasha after their fight.

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#52 Posted by rogueshadow (29274 posts) - - Show Bio

The Ancient One felt like a grandmaster to me.

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#53 Edited by DSTREET45 (5280 posts) - - Show Bio
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#54 Posted by Battle123axe (8981 posts) - - Show Bio
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#55 Posted by DSTREET45 (5280 posts) - - Show Bio
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#56 Posted by Battle123axe (8981 posts) - - Show Bio
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#57 Posted by rogueshadow (29274 posts) - - Show Bio

@rogueshadow: Did she have any feats or hype in the movie?

She was beating Kacelius, who was her greatest student (seemingly alongside Mordo - until Strange anyway) and his accolytes at the same time, who were also her former students. She created two fans from dimensional energy and fought them with it, basically tessenjutsu. Close quarters combat was heavily integrated into the fights. We see that all those who follow the Ancient One are extensively trained in martial arts, it seemed to be a vital component of their powers. Mordo utterly wrecked three thugs like they were nothing. Mordo himself seemed like he was a master martial artist to me. We didn't get to see a great deal of them though.

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#58 Posted by rogueshadow (29274 posts) - - Show Bio

Where do people rank Mordo and The Ancient One?

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#59 Posted by PayneInTheAss (11504 posts) - - Show Bio

Where do people rank Mordo and The Ancient One?

Masters or Elite in worst case.

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#60 Posted by rogueshadow (29274 posts) - - Show Bio

@rogueshadow said:

Where do people rank Mordo and The Ancient One?

Masters or Elite in worst case.

Yeah, I thought they were pretty high tier.

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#61 Edited by Don_Higashikata (729 posts) - - Show Bio

Take Hogan up a notch, he's an ex-boxer

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#62 Posted by Keenko (5187 posts) - - Show Bio

Gao has zero feats so why is she a Grandmaster? And I'd argue that Blonsky is more skilled than BW tbh

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#63 Posted by buildhare (8665 posts) - - Show Bio

Where do people rank Mordo and The Ancient One?

Mid to low elite. I get that their background has stuff to do with martial arts, but in terms of actual combat they demonstrated nothing that puts them in the master tier. At this point it's seems they've taken many of the tenants of martial art forms but actual combat ability isn't anything to brag about.

I'd say Batroc is a superior fighter to anyone we saw in Dr Strange.

@keenko said:

Gao has zero feats so why is she a Grandmaster? And I'd argue that Blonsky is more skilled than BW tbh

I might be able to see that.

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#64 Posted by Keenko (5187 posts) - - Show Bio

@buildhare:

Loading Video...
Loading Video...

I know it's sorta ABC logic but I think the videos speak for themselves.

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#65 Posted by OldKaiser (2973 posts) - - Show Bio

@rogueshadow: Maybe have Batroc as professional and Ant-Man as proficient.

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#66 Posted by DSTREET45 (5280 posts) - - Show Bio

@keenko: I think it's more based on hype/potential and is merely a tentative spot. Hence the question mark besides her name. She also sent Matt sliding several feet on concrete with an open palm strike in the first season of Daredevil so it's possible that she has some knowledge of chi that everyone else in this list doesn't know about.

And I'd argue that Blonsky is more skilled than BW tbh

IIRC Blonsky didn't really show much of CQC fighting outside of the video you posted. And even then it's shows more about his avoidance ability (possibly supplemented by his SSS variant) than actual CQC/H2H skill IMO. The only other time he fought CQC was against Hulk as Abomination. I don't know about him being more skilled than Widow with just those showings under his belt.

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#67 Posted by Keenko (5187 posts) - - Show Bio

@dstreet45: Both of those points are fair, I would argue that his gun-fu type flips and what not are still more impressive than a lot of BW's feat but you got me.

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#68 Posted by DSTREET45 (5280 posts) - - Show Bio

@rogueshadow: I'd probably add Agent 33 to the elite spot. Gave May a decent fight, defeated Daisy, was even against Coulson before May stepped in. Coulson even regarded her as one of SHIELD's best and brightest taken by HDRYA.

Don't know about Dr. Strange characters yet. Will probably watch the movie next week during Thanksgiving break.

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#69 Edited by DSTREET45 (5280 posts) - - Show Bio

@keenko said:

@dstreet45: Both of those points are fair, I would argue that his gun-fu type flips and what not are still more impressive than a lot of BW's feat but you got me.

Yeah I'd say it's impressive as well which kinda makes me sad that Pre-Abomination Blonsky won't be getting anymore feats. He felt like he was a force to be reckoned with.

However the OP says that this list is based on solely the fighters' skill in CQC combat especially unarmed combat so I don't think it'd count for much here.

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#70 Posted by rogueshadow (29274 posts) - - Show Bio

@keenko said:

Gao has zero feats so why is she a Grandmaster? And I'd argue that Blonsky is more skilled than BW tbh

It's tentative based on the way she decimated Matt and her identity as Crane Mother. Hence the (?). We'll see when Iron Fist comes out. I'd echo what DSTREET said and say that Blonsky's skill is pretty untested as he relied heavily on the SSS. I doubt we'll ever know for sure how skilled he truly is.

@rogueshadow said:

Where do people rank Mordo and The Ancient One?

Mid to low elite. I get that their background has stuff to do with martial arts, but in terms of actual combat they demonstrated nothing that puts them in the master tier. At this point it's seems they've taken many of the tenants of martial art forms but actual combat ability isn't anything to brag about.

I'd say Batroc is a superior fighter to anyone we saw in Dr Strange.

Her performance against Kaecelius and his acolytes was really impressive to me. As we see, they are all extensively trained martial artists, with martial arts seemingly being integral to the mastery of 'magic'. Kaecilius' followers were all masters in their own right and she was whooping them. She basically created those magical fans and proceeded to whoop them with Tessenjutsu If I'm remembering correctly. Mordo defeated the gang of thugs with incredible speed and efficiency, faster than a lot of higher tier characters would I think. I agree they didn't do a lot, so it's kind of hard to argue for them, but what they did impressed me. I'd need to rewatch it and break it down, I may be overblowing them having only seen the film once.

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#71 Posted by AngelJax (11659 posts) - - Show Bio

@youngkaiser: Ant-Man is just starting off. He got owned by Hope and Black Widow (with the suit). He has the window frame to get better but as of now?

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#72 Posted by OldKaiser (2973 posts) - - Show Bio

@angeljax: His fight against Hope was prior to most of his training iirc. Later, he fought Sam Wilson. Sure, he had his suit, but Sam had his wings and was probably physically superior.

Btw, I noticed that Carl Creel is listed as proficient. Since Jack Murdock beat him, shouldn't he be up there as well?

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#73 Posted by AngelJax (11659 posts) - - Show Bio

And Sam's only QCQ feat was with Rumlow. Which we didn't get to see fully and what we did end up seeing, Sam was getting his ass handed to him. So I don't really consider Scott winning against Sam in H2H alone is that impressive.

We don't ever see any of Jack's fight do we? That would just be going off assumption.

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#74 Posted by AngelJax (11659 posts) - - Show Bio

@rogueshadow:

Just came back from seeing Doctor Strange. The Ancient One, by title and implication felt like a Grandmaster to me, but by feats, she's a Master. Mordo as well.

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#75 Posted by rogueshadow (29274 posts) - - Show Bio

@angeljax: I agree, I'll put TAO above Stick but below Bobbi. Mordo I'll put at the bottom of Master.

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#76 Posted by rogueshadow (29274 posts) - - Show Bio

Better look at the Ancient One's skills:

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The Ancient One is an utter beast imo.

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#77 Edited by DarthAznable (16928 posts) - - Show Bio

Bucky seems a tad low. I'd but him right under T'challa if not above.

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#78 Posted by RBT (27800 posts) - - Show Bio

I didn't even know there were so many MCU street level characters. From Top of my head, from best to worst-

  • Hopefully, Danny
  • T'Challa
  • Steve Rogers
  • Melinda May
  • Bobbi Morse
  • Matt Murdock
  • Stick
  • Natasha Romanoff
  • Bucky Barnes
  • Brock Rumlow
  • Sam Wilson
  • Clint Barton
  • Batroc
  • Frank Castle
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#79 Posted by Paytience (4918 posts) - - Show Bio

If I may, I want to list here, some good breakdown, but I'll try to get in it later. On a technical level, I'd say Cap is the best martial artist in the MCU, bar none. Bobbi has the best fundamentals, but EVERYONE is below cap in that regard. Cap's physicals have allowed him to become IMPOSSIBLY technical.

Also, I would say that "master" doesn't mean you would win in a fight. Stick for example, I would consider a master. But he isn't touching most of the people in the elite tier.

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#80 Posted by rogueshadow (29274 posts) - - Show Bio

@rbt: You put T'challa over Cap but @darthaznable puts him as potentially below Bucky. I'm curious as to what both of your reasons are.

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#81 Posted by RBT (27800 posts) - - Show Bio

@rbt: You put T'challa over Cap but @darthaznable puts him as potentially below Bucky. I'm curious as to what both of your reasons are.

I would like to see his reasons for putting T'Challa below Bucky as well. Because from what I saw, T'Challa was easily better skilled among the two. In fact, out of 4 times they fought, Bucky had to be rescued thrice.

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#82 Posted by DarthAznable (16928 posts) - - Show Bio

@rbt: One fight Bucky beat him, Natasha and Tony. Their first fight Bucky was trying ro run away. Their fight at the airport was in T'Challa's had the clear but take into account that one his looking to kill and the other is just defending himself and trying to escape. I don't recall there being four fights.

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#83 Posted by RBT (27800 posts) - - Show Bio

@rbt: One fight Bucky beat him, Natasha and Tony. Their first fight Bucky was trying ro run away. Their fight at the airport was in T'Challa's had the clear but take into account that one his looking to kill and the other is just defending himself and trying to escape.

Bucky never beat T'Challa though.

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In this video, during first fight, T'Challa was the only one landing hits. Infact, I don't think bucky landed a single one. And Bucky had to be rescued by the helicopter. When they fought outside of suit, it was more even but still T'Challa was the one who landed more(And critical) strikes. The third time they fought, it was still heavily in T'Challa's favor. He was the one landing hits while Bucky had again to be rescued by Wanda.

Yes, T'Challa was going for kill, but Bucky was fighting for his life as well. If you ask me, I'd say Bucky would be more determined to win those encounters.

I don't recall there being four fights.

You're right. I counted the chase through subway as a fight as well. There wasn't much fight there, tbh.

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#84 Edited by DSTREET45 (5280 posts) - - Show Bio

@darthaznable: Bucky had never beaten T'Challa in any of their fights. If you're referring to the fight where Bucky was mind controlled, they more or less traded hits but T'Challa got Bucky in a hold at one point and got the last hit in before Bucky ghosted him and tried to use the helicopter to escape.

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#85 Posted by uugieboogie (13076 posts) - - Show Bio

@rogueshadow: You don't think Scott and Hope are at least proficient?

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#86 Edited by DarthAznable (16928 posts) - - Show Bio

@rbt: I forgot about their fight on the stairs. But idk. I need to see a fight on more neutral grounds. Bucky was fighting for his life but he wasn't fighting to kill. He spent the entire movie running away and only fought when he had to and continued to run when the opportunity arose. Plus add in the fact that T'Challa is a super soldier in a vibranium suit with claws. Their best fight I'd say is the mind controlled one because it's arguably the most neutral battle yet even then he was just trying to escape.

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#87 Posted by RBT (27800 posts) - - Show Bio

@darthaznable: Its not like Bucky won that fight. All he did was land one hit and run away. And when T'Challa caught up with him, he got the upper hand.

And I know that T'Challa is in vibranium suit which gives him a durability advantage, but its not like Bucky was landing any hit on him when they fought on roof or at the airport. T'Challa was the only one landing hits while Bucky tried his best not to die.

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#88 Posted by rogueshadow (29274 posts) - - Show Bio

@uugieboogie said:

@rogueshadow: You don't think Scott and Hope are at least proficient?

I'd say Scott's skill is too heavily reliant on his shrinking, all Hope really did was whoop Scott (I think?) who was basically fodder at that point, that's in the same wheelhouse as Fitz wrecking one of Holden's goons with his suitcase.

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#89 Edited by Thor_Parker82 (16140 posts) - - Show Bio
  1. Matt
  2. Steve
  3. Panther
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#90 Posted by nfactor1995 (12879 posts) - - Show Bio
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#91 Posted by rogueshadow (29274 posts) - - Show Bio
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#92 Posted by Thorthunder98 (6705 posts) - - Show Bio

For now Steve is higher than Panther but I hope after Panther's film he goes above Steve in skill also hoping Iron Fist is shown as clearly the best H2H fighter in mcu

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#93 Posted by AngelJax (11659 posts) - - Show Bio
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#94 Posted by Thor_Parker82 (16140 posts) - - Show Bio

@angeljax said:
@thor_parker82 said:
  1. Matt
  2. Steve
  3. Panther

No way Matt is above those two

In sheer hand to hand he is better, the other two have enhanced physicals to make up for that.

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#95 Posted by cfrehse (2902 posts) - - Show Bio

Barton should be in master. He is insanely skilled with his bow. He is better than widow. Scarlett witch called him out on holding back. He lasted almost longer against tchalla then bucky did and he isnt enhanced.

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#96 Edited by AngelJax (11659 posts) - - Show Bio

@cfrehse: We're mainly sticking to skill and mastery to H2H and CQC. If we remove that, just about anyone on this list can be a "master" at something.

He's not better than widow. The Movies make that explicitly clear. He lost to her every single time they fought and needed to be saved by Wanda from a kick from Widow that would've done serious damage.

He lasted longer because A. Clint had ranged attacks to keep T'Challa at bay and B. T'Challa wasn't trying to kill him. Bucky didn't have either of these advantages.

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#97 Edited by rogueshadow (29274 posts) - - Show Bio

@angeljax said:

@cfrehse: We're mainly sticking to skill and mastery to H2H and CQC. If we remove that, just about anyone on this list can be a "master" at something.

He's not better than widow. The Movies make that explicitly clear. He lost to her every single time they fought and needed to be saved by Wanda from a kick from Widow that would've done serious damage.

He lasted longer because A. Clint had ranged attacks to keep T'Challa at bay and B. T'Challa wasn't trying to kill him. Bucky didn't have either of these advantages.

Clint has never actually lost to Natasha and the movies don't really make it clear who is superior. When he fought her on the Helicarrier, not only was he lacking lucidity due to mind control, but there is clearly a degree of subconscious control people under the MS's sway can exert, as proven by Selvig's comments about the failsafe for the Cube. Therefore, it stands to reason that Clint would be fighting like hell to break out of it when faced with killing his best friend. And while Widow had the upperhand against Barton, he never actually lost, she bangs his head off the rail at which point he stops fighting because he regains lucidity, then she just punches him and knocks him out.

In Civil War, Clint gets her in a hold and then stops to have the 'we're still friends' bit, a which point she gets out of it and is about to kick him, Wanda interferes and outright says Clint was pulling his punches. So again, he was holding back.

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#98 Edited by DSTREET45 (5280 posts) - - Show Bio
@thor_parker82 said:
@angeljax said:
@thor_parker82 said:
  1. Matt
  2. Steve
  3. Panther

No way Matt is above those two

In sheer hand to hand he is better, the other two have enhanced physicals to make up for that.

I don't think that the Super Soldiers' physicals make a difference. Cap was capable of holding his own against people outside of his weight class and beat Rumlow despite Rumlow having comparable physicals in the suit. Bucky as another example was capable of staving off a couple of other Winter Soldiers with one arm (his mechanical arm) when he was trying to get his handler to safety. And T'Challa was capable of surpassing Bucky in H2H.

I don't really have a problem with Matt being over them, IMO it's a toss up, but I don't think the super soldiers' enhanced physicals really take take away from their overall H2H skill.

@cfrehse said:

He lasted almost longer against tchalla then bucky did and he isnt enhanced.

He didn't last as about as long as Bucky did against T'Challa in the CQC portion of their fight.

@angeljax said:

@cfrehse:

He's not better than widow. The Movies make that explicitly clear. He lost to her every single time they fought and needed to be saved by Wanda from a kick from Widow that would've done serious damage.

The movies don't make it clear that Widow is better and he lost never lost against her every single time. In fact Widow mentioned that Clint spared her life the very first time that they've fought. The second time Widow won but Hawkeye was mind controlled (might have made a difference) and the third time was more or less inconclusive since Wanda intervened but they've both traded hits and Wanda outright stated that Clint was "pulling his punches". And I doubt that kick would've done serious damage. Not to mention that Clint arguably did better against a super soldier (Panther) in CQC than Widow did on three occasions (Bucky twice, and Crossbones).

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#99 Posted by AngelJax (11659 posts) - - Show Bio

@dstreet45: @rogueshadow: Clint lost to Natashsa in the first Avengers.

I'll concede that Natasha hasn't really won a fair fight but the flims do or at least try to convey that Black Widow is slightly superior to him in combat due to her having the upperhand more often than not than he did in most of their fights. (on top of her having more feats)

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#100 Edited by rogueshadow (29274 posts) - - Show Bio

@angeljax: Not in my opinion, had he not stopped he could have fought on, but why would he when he was back to himself? He stops fighting as he regains his senses, says "Natasha?' like he didn't have a clue what was going on then she knocks him out. She was winning - but she didn't truly win. That's how I see it. And considering they always add some context to their fights, I'm unconvinced they are explicitly trying to depict Widow as > Hawkeye in cqc.

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