Avatar image for rogueshadow
#1 Edited by rogueshadow (29379 posts) - - Show Bio

This thread is a tier-base for MCU characters, based solely on their skill-level in unarmed combat.

Essentially, this thread is to discuss the skill of characters in the MCU, the tier they are in and how the tiers should be constructed/defined.

TIER I: GRANDMASTER - Ultimate Mastery with Virtually Peerless Skills

  • Grant Ward w/Table
  • Ross Geller w/Unagi

TIER II: MASTER - Superlative Mastery Beyond the Scope of Even the Finest Combatants

High:

  • Matt Murdock
  • Melinda May
  • XXX
  • XXX

Mid:

  • XXX
  • XXX
  • XXX
  • XXX

Low:

  • XXX
  • XXX
  • XXX
  • XXX

TIER III: ELITE - World-class Combatants Trained to the Highest Levels

High:

  • XXX
  • XXX
  • XXX
  • XXX

Mid:

  • Colleen Wing
  • Viktor Orlov
  • XXX
  • XXX

Low:

  • Kara Palamas
  • Chen Wu
  • Billy Russo
  • XXX

TIER IV: EXPERT - Extensive Training and Experience in Combat, Exhibiting a High-degree of Skill

High:

  • Lance Hunter
  • Benjamin Pointdexter
  • Karl Mordo

Mid:

  • John Healy
  • Rance
  • XXX
  • John McIver

Low:

  • Antoine Triplett
  • XXX
  • XXX
  • XXX

TIER V: PROFESSIONAL - Considerable Combat Skills, Likely With Formal Training

High:

  • Hope Van Dyne
  • XXX
  • XXX
  • XXX

Mid:

  • Misty Knight
  • Lewis Wilson
  • Will Simpson
  • Curtis Hoyle

Low:

  • Wilson Fisk
  • Kebo
  • Shades
  • Rusty

TIER VI: PROFICIENT - Reasonable Skill in Unarmed Combat; Perhaps Lacking Extensive Formal Training

High:

  • Robbie Reyes
  • XXX
  • XXX

Mid:

  • Anatoly Ranshakov
  • XXX
  • XXX
  • XXX

Low:

  • XXX
  • XXX
  • XXX
  • XXX

TIER VII: ROOKIE - Little or No Formal Training, Experience or Ability in Unarmed Combat

  • XXX
  • XXX
  • XXX
  • XXX
Moderator
Avatar image for jedixman
#2 Posted by JediXMan (42743 posts) - - Show Bio

I think we need to establish what constitutes Grandmaster and Rookie, then work from there.

Until proven otherwise, I believe Iron Fist - or his master, possibly - will be at the highest tier. T'Challa is difficult for me to rank, since he's enhanced (in a different way, I assume, than Danny).

Moderator
Avatar image for farkam
#3 Posted by Farkam (12036 posts) - - Show Bio

Difference between a Master and Grandmaster?

Avatar image for rogueshadow
#4 Posted by rogueshadow (29379 posts) - - Show Bio

@jedixman said:

I think we need to establish what constitutes Grandmaster and Rookie, then work from there.

Until proven otherwise, I believe Iron Fist - or his master, possibly - will be at the highest tier. T'Challa is difficult for me to rank, since he's enhanced (in a different way, I assume, than Danny).

I was going to make some definitions for them all, but I wanted to see how other people would define them first, or see if people might put forth a better tiering system.

Yeah, I'm expecting Danny, Kei Lung, Orson Randall etc. are gonna be grandmasters too. I don't think there have been any true grandmasters in the MCU yet.

@farkam said:

Difference between a Master and Grandmaster?

I would say a Master is an individual who has mastered the art of combat to a high degree and has gained a decisive degree of seniority/superiority/understanding over even highly trained and experienced combatants.

A Grandmaster is somebody who far outclasses even the most skilled and practiced Masters, having not only mastered many martial arts, but having taken these arts to their highest levels, probably even transcending their chosen styles. They are practically without peer, likely having only a handful of rivals.

Moderator
Avatar image for rogueshadow
#5 Posted by rogueshadow (29379 posts) - - Show Bio
@jedixman said:

I think we need to establish what constitutes Grandmaster and Rookie, then work from there.

Until proven otherwise, I believe Iron Fist - or his master, possibly - will be at the highest tier. T'Challa is difficult for me to rank, since he's enhanced (in a different way, I assume, than Danny).

I was going to try and make some definitions for them all, but I wanted to see how other people would define them first, or see if people might put forth a better tiering system.

Yeah, I'm expecting Danny, Kei Lung, Orson Randall etc. are gonna be grandmasters too. I don't think there have been any true grandmasters in the MCU yet.

@farkam said:

Difference between a Master and Grandmaster?

I would say a Master is an individual who has mastered the art of combat to a high degree and has gained a decisive degree of seniority/superiority/understanding over even highly trained and experienced combatants.

A Grandmaster is somebody who far outclasses even the most skilled and practiced Masters, having not only mastered many martial arts, but having taken these arts to their highest levels, probably even transcending their chosen styles. They are practically without peer, likely having only a handful of rivals.

Moderator
Avatar image for deactivated-1351355
#6 Posted by deactivated-1351355 (5579 posts) - - Show Bio

@rogueshadow: Shouldn't Doctor Strange be part of the list as well?

There's some time left until his movie, but I think Feige said something about having a lot of martial arts involved in the middle.

Avatar image for rogueshadow
#7 Posted by rogueshadow (29379 posts) - - Show Bio

@laylah said:

@rogueshadow: Shouldn't Doctor Strange be part of the list as well?

There's some time left until his movie, but I think Feige said something about having a lot of martial arts involved in the middle.

That isn't all of the characters, just some ideas to get people going. Dr Strange will figure in once his film comes out, he doesn't have feats yet though.

We've seen in the tie-in comics that the Ancient One and Mordo are reasonably skilled martial artists:

No Caption Provided

And we've seen Strange practicing martial arts techniques in the trailers, so we can assume he will be considerably skilled.

Moderator
Avatar image for black_arrow
#8 Posted by Black_Arrow (10281 posts) - - Show Bio

This at tough list, because most of the skill on the MCU has been shown but not stated, so it takes some speculation to figure out who is in what tier, also I am going to put on their respective tiers in decreasing order of skill (so the first guy who appears on a tier will be the most skilled guy on that tier):

Tier one: I don't think we have seen a proper Grandmaster on the MCU, Iron fist might change that.

Tier two: Stick (the guy is on his late 90s yet he can still fight people like Matt or Elektra without a problem and he has a lot more things to teach Matt) and Madame Gao (I know you didn't mention her but she managed to floor Matt with one punch and she is going to be part of the Iron fist series, so she will be around this level)

Tier three: Daredevil, Nobu, Black Widow, Captain America, Black Panther, Bucky and Batroc.

Tier four: Clint Barton, Elektra, Crossbones, Frank Castle, Thor, Sam Wilson, Sif, Agent 13, Hope van dyne.

Tier five: Scott Lang, Healy, Rance, Maria Hill, Nick Fury.

Tier six: Happy.

I don't watch AoS so I don't have any idea where to place those characters.

Avatar image for rogueshadow
#9 Posted by rogueshadow (29379 posts) - - Show Bio

This at tough list, because most of the skill on the MCU has been shown but not stated, so it takes some speculation to figure out who is in what tier, also I am going to put on their respective tiers in decreasing order of skill (so the first guy who appears on a tier will be the most skilled guy on that tier):

Tier one: I don't think we have seen a proper Grandmaster on the MCU, Iron fist might change that.

Tier two: Stick (the guy is on his late 90s yet he can still fight people like Matt or Elektra without a problem and he has a lot more things to teach Matt) and Madame Gao (I know you didn't mention her but she managed to floor Matt with one punch and she is going to be part of the Iron fist series, so she will be around this level)

Tier three: Daredevil, Nobu, Black Widow, Captain America, Black Panther, Bucky and Batroc.

Tier four: Clint Barton, Elektra, Crossbones, Frank Castle, Thor, Sam Wilson, Sif, Agent 13, Hope van dyne.

Tier five: Scott Lang, Healy, Rance, Maria Hill, Nick Fury.

Tier six: Happy.

I don't watch AoS so I don't have any idea where to place those characters.

Would you really put Hope above Healy, Rance etc? All we've seen her do is whoop Scott IIRC, and that was back when he was street fodder.

Tagging some people with knowledge of the MCU: @thor_parker82@allstarsuperman@buildhare@jayskee@dstreet45@nfactor1995@g2_@jashro44@angeljax@tparks

Sorry if I forgot anybody.

Moderator
Avatar image for thor_parker82
#10 Posted by Thor_Parker82 (16369 posts) - - Show Bio

Tier Two: Master

  • Matt Murdock
  • Steve Rogers
  • Bucky Barnes
  • Nobu
  • Black Panther

Tier Three: Elite

  • Natasha Romanoff
  • Clint Barton
  • Melinda May
  • Batroc
  • Bobbi Morse
  • Grant Ward
  • Stick

Tier Four: Professional

  • Frank Castle
  • Thor Odinson
  • Brock Rumlow
  • Elektra

Tier Five: Proficient

  • The Hand ninjas
  • Luke Cage
  • Diamondback
  • Sam Wilson

Tier Six: Rookie

  • Scott Lang
  • Cornell Stokes
  • Wanda

This ranking is off the top of my head.

Avatar image for buildhare
#11 Posted by buildhare (8714 posts) - - Show Bio

Like some have said the Grandmaster tier is probably vacant at this point.

Tier One: Grandmaster

<Insert here>

Tier Two: Master

Captain America, T'challa, Winter Soldier

Tier Three: Elite

Daredevil, Nobu, Widow, Hawkeye, Stick, Thor

Tier Four: Professional

Batroc, Punisher, Elektra, Generic Hand Ninja, Healy, Rumlow, Falcon, Diamond Back

Tier Five: Proficient

Luke Cage, Red Skull, Fisk

Tier Six: Rookie

Who cares

Avatar image for angeljax
#12 Edited by AngelJax (11756 posts) - - Show Bio

Tier One: Grandmaster - Stick. His enhanced senses definitely put him on a whole other level fundamentally. Years of training and experience against the Hand (full of Elites and Professionals) only made him that much more proficient. In his prime, I’d call Stick the MCU’s best H2H combatant.

Tier Two: Master - Nobu Yoshioka, Melinda May, Natasha Romanoff, Gamora, Ronan, Nebula, Steve Rogers, and Elektra. Fighters with multiple established credentials, can casually disarm and neutralize average citizens in seconds. Extremely proficient in their forte.

Tier Three: Elite - Basically any above average H2H fighters. They rely mainly on gear but can get by bare-”knuckled”. Matt Murdock,, Drax, Bucky Barnes, Lady Sif, Bobbi Morse, Grant Ward, and T’Challa (as of now. He'll probably rise to Tier Three by the time his film comes out)

Tier Four: Professional - Pretty self-explanatory. Professional training, mild/excellent experience to hone skill. (Basically S.H.I.E.L.D. or Hydra agents or anything of that nature.) Daisy Johnson, Agent 33, Clint Barton, Agent 13, Brock Rumlow, Peggy Carter, Marcus Scarlotti, Lance Hunter, and Georges Batroc.

Tier Five: Proficient- Just enough training, formal or informal, and skill to get by. Frank Castle, Peter Quill, John Healy, Rance, Sam Wilson, Phil Coulson, Maria Hill, Nick Fury, Antoine Tripplett, Luke Cage and Thor Odinson (He's a tank. He mainly relies on sheer strength and endurance in his fights. And he never really impressed me in the H2H category)

Tier Six: Rookie - Little to no formal training or experience. Hope Van Dyne, Scott Lang, (I see those two becoming very capable fighters in the future though) Wanda Maximoff, Jessica Jones, Leopold Fits, Jenna Simmons

Skill is subjective and hard to read especially when comparing characters so limited like Healy to characters like Black Widow who are much more established. That's just my two cents on the matter though.

Thanks for the tag btw.

Avatar image for black_arrow
#13 Posted by Black_Arrow (10281 posts) - - Show Bio

@rogueshadow: She didn't get many feats but If her father was Ant Man for a pretty long time and he trained her, so I am sure that in the future she will be on the professional tier when she gets more feats (It's a bit of a Madame Gao situation, where I am sure that in the future she will be on that level). Besides she trained Scott well enough so that he could beat Falcon, that's impressive at least. Besides I don't rank rookie Daredevil that high, It's clear that he got way better as time went on.

Avatar image for mbcb2001
#14 Posted by MBCB2001 (1398 posts) - - Show Bio
Avatar image for apex_pretador
#15 Posted by APEX_pretador (20982 posts) - - Show Bio

@rogueshadow:I'm also making a tier list for live action, you may want to check it out.

Oh, and I am not including shows because I watch only movies.

1. Rookie:

This is a tier where average humans like me belong. They are completely untrained and inexperienced to combat. They do not know to fight. They have rarely been in fights in their entire lives and would rather avoid fighting.

MCU Betty ross , Probably dr banner pre hulk, Spiderman pre civil war.

2. Proficient:

They aren't trained to fight but they can handle a thug or 2 when it is needed. They have some experience of fighting and they generally rely not on H2H ability but sheer power.

MCU Hulk, Tony stark, a regular Thug, fodder goons, Chitauri & ultron bots, Ultron, Ant man, probably luke cage & Kingpin. Oh, and Nick fury

3. Professional:

They are top tier fighters. They should be able to handle multiple fodder goons alone with ease. They have some training, actually proper training, and are skilled enough to use the training to combat. They have been in a lot of life-threatening situations like it is kinda their daily job.

MCU Thor, a mid to high level SHIELD or HYDRA agent, top tier mercenaries, Sharon carter, Hawkeye etc

4. Elite:

They can hang in with best fighters for a brief time, but not best them unless they have a stat advantage. They can clean fodder houses quickly, even if they don't have stat advantage.

MCU Hawkeye (sometimes) , Crossbones (rumlov) , Bucky, probably daredevil, best SHIELD and HYDRA agents, Batroc, etc

5. Master:

They can best dozens of fodder with ease without stat advantage. With a small stat advantage, they can best professionals and elites group. They can hang with mid-high tier fighters despite stats disadvantage.

MCU Cap, Black Panther, Black widow

6. Grandmaster:

They can best martial art masters rather quickly.

MCU Iron man with fight analyzer.

Avatar image for dstreet45
#16 Edited by DSTREET45 (5281 posts) - - Show Bio

@rogueshadow: Thanks for the tag.

There's no particular order in any tier.

Tier One: Grandmaster (Best of the best. Showcases fighting knowledge that transcends that of the Master tier.)

Kinda agree that no one really belongs here yet. The closest I'd say one would be Madame Gao but that's more or less due to her implied connection to Iron Fist. IMO until Iron Fist or Dr.Strange rolls around I don't think we'd see someone at this level.

Tier Two: Master (Some of the best combatants seen so far. Either fought combatants outside of their physical weight class and did well, fought/beaten multiple established fighters, or both.)

Steve Rodgers (Captain America): Not much needs to be said here. Cap is probably one of the best H2H combatants shown in the MCU so far and has come a long way skill wise since his TFA days. Consistently hangs with people outside his weight class and if his showing against Crossbones in Civil War means anything it goes against the notion that Cap fights as well as he does due to his stats. Rumlow is considered to be pretty skilled yet when wearing a suit that gave him comparable stats to Cap, Cap still beat him in a relatively quick fight.

T'Challa (Black Panther): Based on his consistent upper hand against Bucky in their fights I think it's fine to place him here. He'd probably have even better showings in his solo film.

Matt Murdock (Daredevil): As far as I'm concerned right now Matt is one of the best CQC fighters in the MCU along with people like Cap, May, and Bobbi. In season 1 Matt was able to defeat Rance (a hit-man hired by Fisk who has high connections), John Healy (a skilled assassin who took out guys bigger than him in seconds), and Stick (his 90 year old master who can fight like he's still in his prime). He put up a good fight against Nobu geting some good hits in despite Nobu being a superior fighter and even managed to pull off an upset win by deflecting Nobu's shoge hook with his batons. When healthy in Season 2 he has the upper hand against Frank Castle (a decorated Marine with good CQC feats of his own) and takes out several Hand ninjas (one is enough to fodderize two security guards). A resurrected and possibly enhanced Nobu was beaten by Matt in 2 of their last 3 fights cementing Matt's clear improvement from his Season 1 combat skill. After his showings in season 2 I feel like he belongs in this tier.

Melinda May (The Calvary): One of the best non-enhanced fighters in the MCU, May is famous through SHIELD, HYDRA and other intelligence agency for her legendary combat abilities. With more black belts than Widow, fights against many established opponents as superhumans using CQC weapons or even going H2H in a few cases, May is one of the first MCU combatants I'd picture when thinking of a master.

Bobbi Morse (Mockingbird): Bobbi is one of the premier CQC fighters in the MCU. Possibly even better than May in CQC. Was able to hold her own against a decently skilled Kree, fought May in an interrupted but even fight, defeated Kara (Agent 33) in seconds, had the upper hand when May was testing her, and had an impressive showing against Ward and Kara despite going through hours of torture beforehand. May even said that Bobbi was one of the best recruits she had ever seen

Giyera: Only had one conclusive H2H feat but it was against May and he almost won (even had the upper hand before May cup checked him) so I thought it'd be fair to include him as a master.

Nobu Yoshioka: A nigh-immortal ninja leader who was rumored to have lived three lifetimes, Nobu is sufficed to say, an impressive fighter. His first martial art showing was nearly breaking the wrist of Francis (Wilson Fisk's bodyguard) while causally focusing and maintaining a conversation with Fisk and Wesley. Nearly killed Matt in their first fight and despite Matt putting up a fight Nobu was clearly the superior combatant. After he was resurrected he basically stomped Matt even harder in their second fight, treated Elektra as a non-factor in the season 2 finale, later stomped Matt and Elektra once he became angry. He deserves to be in this tier.

Stick: Matt and Elektra's master, Stick is one old man who could Was debating whether or not he should be here or in the Elite tier but I eventually decided that due to his knowledge and application of meditation to heal wounds and maintain the athletic ability of a man in his 20's while actually being over 90, he should be in this tier. He might even get bumped up a tier if it turns out he has more tricks up his sleeve.

Grant Ward: He's good, he's really really good. Grant Ward is a high tier fighter in the AoS series with plenty of accolades and feats to support his skills as a fighter. Maria Hill had given him top grades in combat, May had considered him one of SHIELD's best fighters, and Daniel Whitehall had considered him one of HYDRA's best killers. He was able to give May two tough fights and even had the upper-hand in the last one, had a clear upper-hand against Tripp (another specialist trained by Garrett), gave Coulson a tough fight despite having two bullet wounds and having his hands bound, and regularly clears through fodder. I'd say he belongs here.

James Buchanan "Bucky" Barnes (Winter Soldier): Just about equal to Cap in overall physicals, Bucky was more than capable of giving Cap tough fights on at least two occasion. The same Cap that could fodderize a legioin of Chituari and later goes on to hold his own against Ultron's penultimate form. Bucky had also given Black Panther a good fight in their second fight when Bucky was brainwashed again. So having Bucky in this tier makes sense IMO.

Tier Three: Elite (High tier fighters. Clearly are better than most in the MCU but lack something that bumps them up to the Master tier like fighting established characters, having a good track record against people above their weight class, or even simply not having good enough feats to make it.)

Natasha Romanoff (Black Widow): Was kinda on the fence about putting her here as I feel like she's shown enough to be a master. She's beaten Hawkeye who, based on his reputation and what little CQC feats he has, is pretty impressive. Her action feats are impressive but I feel that I have a lot in the master tier and pretty much everyone in that tier has either fought more established fighters than she has, did well against metas outside of their weight class (while Bucky stomped her on two occasions and Crossbones tanked her hits), or both. So for now I'd have her at the highest elite level.

Clint Barton (Hawkeye): Also a potential master, I feel that Hawkeye is pretty skilled in CQC. He apparently spared Widow the very first time they fought in the past though the context of that fight in unclear as he probably had used his bow. In Civil War they were pretty even in a short scuffle while Scarlet Witch was saying that Hawkeye was "holding his punches". He also managed to get Panther in a hold before being defeated which is more than what Batroc could do when Cap got serious against him. He was able to stab some Chitauri and Ultron bots with arrows. I pretty much have him on Widow's level.

Elektra Natchios: Elektra is very skilled with a decent documented background of her fighting ability. She had beaten 3 Chaste adults while she was a kid (almost killed one and went on to kill him later); took out several Hand ninjas in Episode 8 before Matt distracted her; killed Jacque Duchamp, a Chaste assassin sent by Stick (even kicked him hard enough that he slid several feet); had the upper-hand against Stick with the fight ending in a potential draw; and killed more hand ninja in Episode 12 and 13. She had some low showing like having trouble against the Yakuza in the episode before the Hand showed up but that could be a testament on how skilled the Yakuza were (they were allied with the Hand anyway). IMO she might have enough skill to make it to master tier but her showing against Nobu makes it clear that she's not on his level so I'm leaving her here for now.

Marcus Scarlotti: Only appeared for one episode but he apparently came close to killing Clint in the past and had a decent fight against May so I feel that Elite level is a fair assessment of him.

Georges Batroc (Batroc The Leaper): Fought against Cap, overall did well despite fighting outside his weight class (though to be fair his most effective attacks came from when he ambushed Cap) and has a high kill count. Elite level seems like a fair placement for him.

Kara Palamas (Agent 33): A highly skilled agent, Kara is an opponent most people can't afford to sleep on. She's one the best and brightest SHIELD agents according to Coulson and

Phil Coulson: Looks can be deceiving. Coulson looks like a white collar middle-aged father but is actually a highly skilled SHIELD agent who came back from the dead and has a brick busting mechanical hand that can project a shield. Coulson was capable of holding his own against Agent 33 for a small amount of time, got Garret in a chokehold before Garret used a knife to escape, was capable of fighting a TAHITI patient who worked some Black Ops missions for SHIELD, clears through fodder in decent time.

Daisy Johnson: I'm more impressed with her each time I watch her fight scenes. She was capable of giving Agent 33 a good fight and defeated 2 of Alisha's clones before getting overwhelmed by the number advantage. She could clear through fodder (ususally with weapons) and held her own against Hive who has the knowledge of everyone who he infested, even Grant Ward (though she was using her powers to supplement her H2H moves). I'd consider her an elite.

Frank Castle: Two words: Prison fight.

Tier Four: Professional (Very skilled. Able to take out fodder with ease and the best fighters of this tier can give good fights to the Elites before losing. This is probably where I'd place most hyped up characters who have little to no feats.)

John Healy: Practically blitzed two guys bigger than he was and didn't break a sweat when knocking them out. Put up a good fight against Matt. Very fast and ruthless.

Thor Odinson: Took down several SHIELD agents. Nuff said.

Brock Rumlow (Crossbones): Not to many H2H feats. He stomped Sam in an off-screen fight but Sam doesn't have much if any feats without gear. When in his battle suit (which IIRC gave him comparable stats to Cap) he put up a good but short fight against Cap before losing and committing suicide (started the mach catching Cap off-guard).

Hand Ninjas: Probably one of the most skilled fodder in the MCU. One was able to give Matt (albeit a poisioned Matt) a decent fight. Another casually KO'd two security guards in an instance. Were fast enough to keep up and intercept a getaway car via parkour, these guys are one group of fodder you can't afford to slip up against.

Will Simpson (Nuke): Former Spec. Op, knows where certain pain centers are in a body, and took down two professional bodyguards. He clearly knows his stuff.

Rance: Was stated to be a professional hit-man and was capable of countering Matt's judo throw by flipping into the throw. Had good pain tolerance seeing as he kept fight despite falling out a window and even after Matt broke his arm. For a street-tier fighter with limited screen time he's pretty skilled.

Lady Sif: May said that she's a good warrior and she had some decent feats here and there.

Maria Hill: Beaten up a couple of soldiers in AoS in the season 1 in the 3rd to last episode.

Mike Peterson (Deathlok): Had SHIELD training and managed to take down a Centipede soldier (they were shown to be pretty skilled) despite being stabbed with a metal bar. Mike doesn't show his skills much since becoming a cyborg but he's pretty skilled based on that one showing.

Sam Wilson: Doesn't really have much CQC feats without his wings. He lost to Rumlow who also has little combat feats.

Sharon Carter (Agent 13): Also lacks in the feats department. IIRC her only CQC showing was losing to Bucky despite fighting with Natasha.

Tier Five: Proficient (Skilled. Shown/implied above average fighting ability. Can take out fodder but not too many at a time.)

Alisha Whitley: Very proficient, just one of her is too much for a regular SHIELD agent. She had a decent showing against May and even landed a couple of hits, however she previously needed five clones to defeat Daisy despite May stomping Daisy in seconds like a day earlier so I'm not sure which feat is more average for her. Probably had gotten a skill boost between seasons, not sure.

Luke Cage: Former amateur boxer, undefeated underground prison fighting champ, Luke Cage can whoop ass without his powers. And Even when he utilizes his strength and durability, Luke doesn't constantly tank attacks like most bricks do, he also uses his skills to nonchalantly avoid, block, and counter his opponent's attacks. The man can fight and he fights to win.

Willis Stryker (Diamondback): Not much to go on but Willis had trained Luke in boxing and clearly knows how to fight, possibly being a rival to Luke in skill.

Wilson Fisk: While he's not formally trained, Fisk's combat ability isn't lacking to say the least. The guy knows how to use his strength and durability to his advantage as shown as when he went toe to toe against Daredevil despite Daredevil being able to beat Rance (a professional and agile hit-man) and John Healy (a skilled assassin capable of fodderizing two men bigger than he is in seconds) earlier in the season, as well as being fast enough to avoid the gunfire of four cops while simultaneously taking them down in seconds. Suffice to say that giving Daredevil a tough fight is a good showing for Fisk since Daredevil is an established fighter. Wilson Fisk was also able to beat Anatoly Ranskahov and crushed his head off with a car door (took eight slams for the head to leak out matter). Being a brawler seems to viewed in a negative light in the Vine on occasions but I don't think that being a brawler makes one a bad fighter.

Akela Amador: I feel like she should be higher but she doesn't have much feats as she only appeared in an episode. She fought May but May was clearly superior to her to the point where Akela had to turn off the lights in an attempt to use her cybernetic eye to her advantage.

Lance Hunter: Not much to go on him CQC wise but he can defeat fodder without much trouble and knows how to fight so...

Antoine Triplett: Probably even less to go on than Hunter.

Tier Six: Rookie (Average Human. Probably cannot take on more than one person at a time at relatively equal physical levels.)

Hope Van Dyne (Wasp): Didn't do much fighting, just trained and beaten a noob Scott.

Scott Lang (Ant-Man): Had training but not enough good feats for me to think that he belongs anywhere above this tier.

Trish Walker: Had Krav Maga training but didn't really have any decent showings. She was nearly killed by a Kilgraved Simpson and was dropped by Simpson again despite both being on reds. I think her only good showings was accidentally attacking a fan of hers and flipping Jessica when she wasn't expecting it.

Claire Temple: Beaten up a thug who tried to jack her bag. With the help of (a severely wounded) Misty Knight, managed to beat up Shades.

Happy Hogan: Beaten up a Hammer bodyguard in a prolonged battle. That's pretty much it.

Leopold Fitz: Beaten up an Primitive. Not sure if that's a good showing for him or just the Primitives jobbing but since he doesn't have any combat training I'm assuming the opposite.

Avatar image for supermanwithatan01
#17 Posted by Supermanwithatan01 (10299 posts) - - Show Bio

No one from Agents of shield, nor Clint or Black Widow should be higher than elite. They're all skilled but I don't consider them competition for Matt, Nobu, Bucky, Steve or T'Challa.

I also believe Danny will be the Grandmaster.

Avatar image for rogueshadow
#18 Posted by rogueshadow (29379 posts) - - Show Bio

Thanks for the fantastic responses guys. Lots of disagreement in this thread, some people are putting Stick as high as Grandmaster, others as low as elite. I've looked through the listings and arguments and put them into tiers, but these are subject to change. What do people think of the current setup?

Moderator
Avatar image for dstreet45
#19 Posted by DSTREET45 (5281 posts) - - Show Bio

Thanks for the fantastic responses guys. Lots of disagreement in this thread, some people are putting Stick as high as Grandmaster, others as low as elite. I've looked through the listings and arguments and put them into tiers, but these are subject to change. What do people think of the current setup?

Overall I'd say it's solid.

Avatar image for amendment50
#20 Edited by Amendment50 (15463 posts) - - Show Bio

Tier One: Grandmaster

  • ?

Tier Two: Master

  • Natasha Romanoff
  • Steve Rogers
  • James Barnes
  • T'challa

Tier Three: Elite

  • Clint Barton
  • Matt Murdock
  • Nobu Yoshioka
  • Thor Odinson
  • Stick

Tier Four: Professional

  • Sharon Carter
  • Elektra Natchios
  • Brock Rumlow
  • Peggy Carter
  • Lady Sif
  • Scott Lang
  • Sam Wilson
  • Frank Castle

Tier Five: Proficient

  • Will Simpson
  • Luke Cage
  • Jessica Jones
  • Willis Stryker
  • Standard Hand Ninja
  • Peter Parker
  • Wanda Maximoff

Tier Six: Rookie

  • Cornell Stokes
  • Trish Walker
  • Wilson Fisk
  • Claire Temple
  • Happy Hogan
Online
Avatar image for dstreet45
#21 Posted by DSTREET45 (5281 posts) - - Show Bio

No one from Agents of shield, nor Clint or Black Widow should be higher than elite. They're all skilled but I don't consider them competition for Matt, Nobu, Bucky, Steve or T'Challa.

I disagree about the AoS characters. Is there anything that the above could do skill-wise that people like May or Bobbi couldn't replicate or even come close? I'd at least put them on par with Matt and Nobu in terms of H2H skill.

Avatar image for supermanwithatan01
#22 Posted by Supermanwithatan01 (10299 posts) - - Show Bio

@dstreet45: I would argue Matt and Nobu would take a healthy majority vs May, Bobbi and Ward (skillwise).

Avatar image for angeljax
#23 Posted by AngelJax (11756 posts) - - Show Bio
Avatar image for angeljax
#24 Edited by AngelJax (11756 posts) - - Show Bio

@supermanwithatan01: Bobbi, May, and Ward all have showings fighting against superhumans, enhanced individuals and even a Kree in Bobbi's case. I don't see them not being able to replicate anything that Matt and Nobu did based on skill alone. They'd probably do even better, if I'm being honest.

Avatar image for dstreet45
#25 Edited by DSTREET45 (5281 posts) - - Show Bio

@supermanwithatan01: And I'd argue that Matt and Nobu would win a slight majority against any of them in very tough matches.

May's CQC skill has enabled her to fight and sometimes win against enhanced people and even win with or without weapons.

Bobbi is the same especially when she has her batons and might even be better than May fighting wise.

Ward in terms of overall H2H feats against enhanced people isn't as impressive as the first 2 but he's very close to them in skill and had given May tough fights twice and is recognized as one of the most dangerous and skill agent in both SHIELD and HYDRA channels.

All of them had fought/beaten people with advanced fighting skill (Giyera, Marcus Scarlotti, Agent 33, each other etc.).

I'd say that they should be on par with people like Cap, Matt, and Nobu.

Avatar image for thevivas
#26 Posted by TheVivas (19495 posts) - - Show Bio

@rogueshadow: You have Claire listed twice in the Rookie category.

Avatar image for payneintheass
#27 Posted by PayneInTheAss (11779 posts) - - Show Bio

I disagree with some of the rankings

Natasha a master?

Daredevil below The Super Soldiers?

Elektra above Daredevil?

Avatar image for dstreet45
#28 Edited by DSTREET45 (5281 posts) - - Show Bio

@payneintheass said:

I disagree with some of the rankings

Natasha a master?

Daredevil below The Super Soldiers?

Elektra above Daredevil?

Yeah that definitely doesn't seem right.

Avatar image for rogueshadow
#29 Posted by rogueshadow (29379 posts) - - Show Bio

@payneintheass said:

I disagree with some of the rankings

Natasha a master?

Daredevil below The Super Soldiers?

Elektra above Daredevil?

Yeah that definitely doesn't seem right.

@angeljax

I think this is primarily in response to your post.

@thevivas said:

@rogueshadow: You have Claire listed twice in the Rookie category.

Thanks, I edited this late on last night, so I was pretty tired.

Moderator
Avatar image for angeljax
#30 Posted by AngelJax (11756 posts) - - Show Bio

@dstreet45: Both Natasha and Elektra have been training in lethal martial arts ever since they were kids. I think they only ever loose to fights due to physical disadvantages, but it doesn't knock their credibility and established titles of refined fighters. (At least in my eyes, it doesn't) So, Yes I do believe that fundamentally, they are better fighters than Matt, and Bucky and arguably even Cap.

Daredevil isn't a good as a fighter as people let on. Matt is still learning, he hasn't hit his peak yet, I think it's fair to consider him a rising Master, but not one yet. Him and Elektra are in the same ballpark though, So I wouldn't have a problem with them being in the same weight class.

Avatar image for fallschirmjager
#31 Posted by Fallschirmjager (23432 posts) - - Show Bio

Tier one

Batman

someone had to say it

Avatar image for buildhare
#32 Posted by buildhare (8714 posts) - - Show Bio

@rogueshadow:

For your new tier list I'd only change a couple of things;

  • Assuming your list is ordered all the MCU Super-soldiers should be above Murdock due to Hype. If we don't go on hype Gao should be moved down all the way, Murdock could be ahead of Bucky, but probably not T'challa (based on how he performed against Bucky) and certainly not Steve.
  • Thor should be moved up a tier. Not sure if you've seen them but his performance in the deleted scenes (against Vision and some Asgardian guards) definitely put him in that group.
  • If we're going on martial skills Parker should probably be moved up, sure it's not a true martial art but he clearly has moves

Avatar image for rogueshadow
#33 Posted by rogueshadow (29379 posts) - - Show Bio

@rogueshadow:

For your new tier list I'd only change a couple of things;

  • Assuming your list is ordered all the MCU Super-soldiers should be above Murdock due to Hype. If we don't go on hype Gao should be moved down all the way, Murdock could be ahead of Bucky, but probably not T'challa (based on how he performed against Bucky) and certainly not Steve.
  • Thor should be moved up a tier. Not sure if you've seen them but his performance in the deleted scenes (against Vision and some Asgardian guards) definitely put him in that group.
  • If we're going on martial skills Parker should probably be moved up, sure it's not a true martial art but he clearly has moves
  • It's not ordered yet, but I'm probably going to move onto that soon.
  • I put a question mark next to Gao, it's a tentative placement, I'm just gonna leave her there for now.
  • You're right, I'd forgotten about the deleted scene against the Einherjar.
  • Eh, Parker's skills are too heavily derived from his powers for me, I don't think he has any actual combat expertise.
Moderator
Avatar image for rogueshadow
#34 Posted by rogueshadow (29379 posts) - - Show Bio

@angeljax said:

@dstreet45: Both Natasha and Elektra have been training in lethal martial arts ever since they were kids. I think they only ever loose to fights due to physical disadvantages, but it doesn't knock their credibility and established titles of refined fighters. (At least in my eyes, it doesn't) So, Yes I do believe that fundamentally, they are better fighters than Matt, and Bucky and arguably even Cap.

Daredevil isn't a good as a fighter as people let on. Matt is still learning, he hasn't hit his peak yet, I think it's fair to consider him a rising Master, but not one yet. Him and Elektra are in the same ballpark though, So I wouldn't have a problem with them being in the same weight class.

I agree about Widow, but Elektra, not so much. She was getting made a fool of in that final fight, at points, Nobu treated her like a non-factor and the Hand regularly got a hold of her; had they been trying to kill her she'd be dead ten times over. I do think she's going to be a lot more skilled when she returns though.

I do think Matt is a master, top 5 in the MCU, look at his performance against five elite Hand Ninja:

No Caption Provided

Ninja who can fodderise two security guards almost instantly:

No Caption Provided

Moderator
Avatar image for angeljax
#35 Posted by AngelJax (11756 posts) - - Show Bio

@rogueshadow: She still was holding her own against a few Hand Ninja, and consistently gave Stick, Matt and Nobu good fights.

Avatar image for rogueshadow
#36 Edited by rogueshadow (29379 posts) - - Show Bio

@angeljax said:

@rogueshadow: She still was holding her own against a few Hand Ninja, and consistently gave Stick, Matt and Nobu good fights.

Nobu whooped her though. Despite what Scott Glenn said about having the body of a 22 year old, I think it's clear that Stick is physically inferior to Matt and Elektra - Nobu for sure. He can't keep up with their physicals in my opinion, even though he is by far a superior physical specimen than anybody has any right to be in their 90's. I think he probably has more pure skill than them though. Her performance against the Hand isn't that great, like I said, she was repeatedly captured and pinned by them in the Season 2 finale, she'd be dead if they were actually trying to kill her. I don't think Elektra is as skilled as end of series 2 Matt.

Moderator
Avatar image for comicace3
#37 Edited by comicace3 (12434 posts) - - Show Bio

I think this list is very accurate

Avatar image for dstreet45
#38 Edited by DSTREET45 (5281 posts) - - Show Bio

@angeljax said:

@dstreet45: Both Natasha and Elektra have been training in lethal martial arts ever since they were kids.

So has Matt. Stick trained him as a kid same as Elektra. And I don't really subscribe to the one trained longer and knows more fighting styles = more skilled line of reasoning unless it's used to supplement a person who has better combat/skill feats.

I think they only ever loose to fights due to physical disadvantages, but it doesn't knock their credibility and established titles of refined fighters. (At least in my eyes, it doesn't) So, Yes I do believe that fundamentally, they are better fighters than Matt, and Bucky and arguably even Cap.

Not too sure about that. Matt was able to list the martial art styles that Elektra was using that time they had sex in the boxing ring. He clearly knows as much as she does outside of how to deal with the Hand which he ended up learning at the end of the season.

And I doubt that a physical advantage that essentially boils down to being a peak human male and a peak human female would affect the performance between two people with a skill gap large enough to place them in different tiers. Matt had consistently performed better against opponents than Elektra has and even had to bail her out on few occasions. If she's more skilled than he is by a tier I doubt that would be the case even if he's closer in stats to the people they are both fighting.

And unlike Natasha, Cap had done well against people outside his weight class like Ultron, Spiderman, War Machine, and Iron Man and still did commendable when not using his shield against them (well except maybe against Ultron and possbily War Machine) while Natasha was manhandled by Bucky on two occasions and barely occupied Crossbones for 15 seconds.

Daredevil isn't a good as a fighter as people let on. Matt is still learning, he hasn't hit his peak yet, I think it's fair to consider him a rising Master, but not one yet.

IMO Matt still learning has to do more about fighting certain opponents (i.e the Hand) and experience rather than his skill level as a whole. Even without completing Stick's training Matt was able to best his master despite Stick having the physicals of a man in his 20's due to meditation and Elektra outright called him one of the best fighters she knows. He had already beaten professional hit-men and assassins long before the Hand appeared under his radar, defeated groups of men solo even when inflicted with injuries that would keep other people in the hospital, and even had Nobu complement his fighting skill. I'd say he's had better showings of skill than Elektra who's top skill feats were having the upper hand against Stick, which Matt had done back in Season 1, and defeating Jacque Duchamp, a Chaste assassin.

@angeljax said:

@rogueshadow: She still was holding her own against a few Hand Ninja, and consistently gave Stick, Matt and Nobu good fights.

Stick is the only one she had given a good fight.

I don't think she ever actually fought Matt let alone had given him a good fight outside of the one time before they had sex but even then it was apparent that neither was putting too much effort in.

Nobu practically treated her as a non-factor almost every time she went up against him.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3

That being said I cool with Elektra and Natasha being considered in the Master level. Even said that there's a case for them being above elite level in my skill ranking post.

Avatar image for asgaard
#39 Posted by Asgaard (4518 posts) - - Show Bio
Avatar image for rogueshadow
#40 Edited by rogueshadow (29379 posts) - - Show Bio

@asgaard said:

@rogueshadow:

Gamora, Nebula & Drax?

I'm not sure how to place them since they are so removed from Earth at this point, it makes them difficult to place, and only one person has offered an opinion on them so far.

I'd say:

  • Gamora, Nebula and Ronan - Elite
  • Drax and Korath - Professional
  • Peter Quill - Proficient

?

Moderator
Avatar image for asgaard
#41 Edited by Asgaard (4518 posts) - - Show Bio

@asgaard said:

@rogueshadow:

Gamora, Nebula & Drax?

I'm not sure how to place them since they are so removed from Earth at this point, it makes them difficult to place, and only one person has offered an opinion on them so far.

I'd say:

  • Gamora, Nebula and Ronan - Elite
  • Drax and Korath - Professional
  • Peter Quill - Proficient

?

That was where i wanted to get... And i am glad you acknowledge it... I am not good at this so i am not criticizing any direct position but our appreciation of the GotG characters and the Asgardians fighting skills only in the mundane perspective could be flawed, Frigga was something more than we initially thought she was...

Its just a view not a critic to the thread that looks very interesting and that says something because i don't care much for details regarding this subjects...

Avatar image for payneintheass
#42 Posted by PayneInTheAss (11779 posts) - - Show Bio

@rogueshadow: You gotta love that rage scream at the end of the 1st gif.

Avatar image for rogueshadow
#43 Posted by rogueshadow (29379 posts) - - Show Bio
Moderator
Avatar image for rogueshadow
#44 Edited by rogueshadow (29379 posts) - - Show Bio

Okay, I think we can start trying to rank them now. How would people rank the masters?

Moderator
Avatar image for dstreet45
#45 Edited by DSTREET45 (5281 posts) - - Show Bio

@rogueshadow:

Rough Draft of my list:

Master Class:

  1. Melinda May: Just impresses me the most skill wise at the moment. Taken on skilled fighters, some in the Master Class, and did well against enhanced individuals.
  2. Steve Rogers: Is a really good fighter and is capable of hanging with people outside his weight class.
  3. Matt Murdock: Had gotten better especially with his feats against the Yakuza, the Hand, and his last two fights against Nobu.
  4. Nobu Yoshioka: Stomped Daredevil in the second season and had the clear upper-hand against him in the first.
  5. Bobbi Morse: just as good as a fighter as May and has repeatedly proven herself against skilled opponents as well as metas.
  6. T'challa: Needs more feats but he's consistently had the upper-hand against Bucky so I'd give this rating for now.
  7. Giyera: Had the upper-hand against May at a point in their fight. Is skilled enough to hang with the best of them without using his powers.
  8. James Barnes: Had consistently given Cap and Panther good fights.
  9. Stick: Had given S1 Daredevil a good fight and has knowledge of using meditation (and likely chi) to his advantage hence why he has the physicals of a man in his 20's despite being in his 90's.
  10. Grant Ward: Ward is good enough to pressure May and even gained the upper hand in one of their fights but Bobbi was able to pressure both him and Kara despite being tortured. Thought that's more on Bobbi being skilled rather than Ward being unimpressive but I feel that he should be one the lower end of Master level.
  11. Natasha Romanoff: Is a really good fighter like the people above her and eats mercenaries and skilled government agents for breakfast. Is 1-1-1 against Hawkeye (the one loss was in the past) but otherwise lacks feats with established fighters, particularly Master Class level fighters (though I could see an argument that Clint might also belong here) and doesn't have a good track record against enhanced individuals in CQC.

Subject to change especially since I view the first 6 fighters to be about even in skill.

Avatar image for rogueshadow
#46 Posted by rogueshadow (29379 posts) - - Show Bio

@dstreet45: I can get behind that. However, I'd put Ward higher. Probably Barnes level. I think people overrate Bobbi's performance against Ward/Kara though, there was heavy context behind it. She was tortured and that's clearly an enormous factor, but that fight starts with her stabbing him in the neck multiple times and banging his head off the table, and perhaps even more importantly, Ward wasn't trying to kill her, it was the exact opposite, he didn't want to kill her, if she died, Kara could never have her 'closure', which was the whole point of the entire endeavour. Bobbi on the other hand, while in sh*t shape, but she was also fighting for her life with everything she had, Ward was only trying to incapacitate her and was probably pretty dazed himself to be honest.

And while Scott Glenn said Stick has the body of a 22 year old, I think that was just hyperbole, he's physically superior to any guy in his 90's, but he's not a prime peak human. I think he hangs with them mostly through skill. He has a lot to teach Matt methinks.

Also, in my opinion, Black Widow has never actually beaten Hawkeye. In their second (first onscreen) fight, she has the upperhand and bashes his head of a rail, at which point he basically stops fighting on account of the cognitive recalibration and then she knocks him out. It's also worth noting that we know a part of Dr. Selvig was undermining Loki's control, fighting back against it; it's quite likely somebody with the mental fortitude of Clint was holding back whilst his Loki controlled self was trying to kill his best friend. Second fight was pretty much even and SW says he was pulling his punches. I do think she's a highly impressive and adaptive fighter though, I consider her a master.

Moderator
Avatar image for buildhare
#47 Edited by buildhare (8714 posts) - - Show Bio

@rogueshadow: @dstreet45:

I'm not familiar with AOS characters. What has May done to put her above Steve and Matt?

Avatar image for dstreet45
#48 Posted by DSTREET45 (5281 posts) - - Show Bio

@buildhare: IMO nothing really. As I said it was a rough draft and that they and the other 3-4 people behind them were at the same level of skill and could be placed anywhere in the top 5 but it was based on how I was feeling at the moment. My list (mainly the top 5) could change at any point.

Some of May's feats:

-Had the upper-hand against Francis Noche, an enhanced ex-mobster, who's superhuman steroids gave him enough strength to bend the bars on a front gate in a mental institution and crack a football helmet with a punch at the cost of frying his brain making him dumb as an ox (literally is incapable of speech). May was able to use her skill to outmaneuver him and land several hits.

-Had the upper-hand against (or at the very least stalemated) Ward when he was under Lorilei's spell. Loreilei is a beautiful Asgardian (Lady Sif's rival) whose appearance and voice cause men to bow to her whims. Ward was fully cognizant of his actions and wasn't fighting back the effects (he would've shot her at the end of the fight if May didn't take out the clip mid-fight). As a fighter Ward was able to clear through fodder with ease and is so dangerous that SHIELD recognizes him as one of their best fighters (Maria Hill gave him top grades in combat) and Daniel Whitehall, a head of HYDRA, considered him one of their best killers. He also gave Coulson a tough fight despite having his hands bound and being shot twice earlier.

-Put up a fight against Centipede soldiers. Centipede soldiers are soldiers enhanced by a super soldier serum variant, Extremis, gamma radiation etc. They are capable of breaking through concrete and brick walls, drilling a hole through a car door, and can move a shipping container. The ones May had fought had shown some level of martial arts skill. She didn't beat them but I consider lasting as as she did a testiment to her skill.

-Defeated Marcus Scarlotti, a man who almost killed Hawkeye in the past. He wields a weapon similar to Nobu's shoge hook.

@dstreet45: I can get behind that. However, I'd put Ward higher. Probably Barnes level. I think people overrate Bobbi's performance against Ward/Kara though, there was heavy context behind it. She was tortured and that's clearly an enormous factor, but that fight starts with her stabbing him in the neck multiple times and banging his head off the table, and perhaps even more importantly, Ward wasn't trying to kill her, it was the exact opposite, he didn't want to kill her, if she died, Kara could never have her 'closure', which was the whole point of the entire endeavour. Bobbi on the other hand, while in sh*t shape, but she was also fighting for her life with everything she had, Ward was only trying to incapacitate her and was probably pretty dazed himself to be honest.

Fair enough.

And while Scott Glenn said Stick has the body of a 22 year old, I think that was just hyperbole, he's physically superior to any guy in his 90's, but he's not a prime peak human. I think he hangs with them mostly through skill. He has a lot to teach Matt methinks.

IIRC he caught up to a getaway car and was able to kill the Black Sky off-screen while Matt was fighting Nobu's men back in season 1. That's pretty impressive even if he had a head start and waited for them. He definitely has more to teach Matt though. Would you place him among the top skill-wise?

Also, in my opinion, Black Widow has never actually beaten Hawkeye. In their second (first onscreen) fight, she has the upperhand and bashes his head of a rail, at which point he basically stops fighting on account of the cognitive recalibration and then she knocks him out.

I consider it her win at that part.

It's also worth noting that we know a part of Dr. Selvig was undermining Loki's control, fighting back against it; it's quite likely somebody with the mental fortitude of Clint was holding back whilst his Loki controlled self was trying to kill his best friend.

Really? Probably forgot about that.

Second fight was pretty much even and SW says he was pulling his punches.

That's true. But I think it's possible that Widow may have been holding back as well so I was considering it a tie.

I do think she's a highly impressive and adaptive fighter though, I consider her a master.

Agreed.

Avatar image for rogueshadow
#49 Posted by rogueshadow (29379 posts) - - Show Bio

And while Scott Glenn said Stick has the body of a 22 year old, I think that was just hyperbole, he's physically superior to any guy in his 90's, but he's not a prime peak human. I think he hangs with them mostly through skill. He has a lot to teach Matt methinks.

IIRC he caught up to a getaway car and was able to kill the Black Sky off-screen while Matt was fighting Nobu's men back in season 1. That's pretty impressive even if he had a head start and waited for them. He definitely has more to teach Matt though. Would you place him among the top skill-wise?

I rewatched and Stick does catch up with the Black Sky, however, I'm wondering exactly how that worked out. It seems likely that his more refined senses allowed him to trail the car across NYC rather than that he straight up caught up to it. However, when Matt gets to his flat, Stick's already there. It's possible that they simply drove near to Matt's, I don't think Hell's Kitchen is all that big. I'm not sure, I don't think we can really call that a speed feat though, too many possibilities. Not sure, I feel like he should be more skilled than Matt, Steve and so on, but it's difficult to say. I hope we get a bit more from him in the Defenders.

I consider it her win at that part.

It's also worth noting that we know a part of Dr. Selvig was undermining Loki's control, fighting back against it; it's quite likely somebody with the mental fortitude of Clint was holding back whilst his Loki controlled self was trying to kill his best friend.

Really? Probably forgot about that.

Yeah, towards the end Selvig says that despite the mind control, he was cognizant to some degree and built in a safety to cut the power source.

@buildhare - I agree with Dstreet45.

Moderator
Avatar image for angeljax
#50 Posted by AngelJax (11756 posts) - - Show Bio

Rough Draft. (Top 5 are interchangeable really)

Masters:

1. Steve Rogers

2. Melinda May

3. Nobu Yoshioka

4. Stick

5. T'Challa

6. Bobbi Morse

7. Natasha Romanoff

8. James Barnes

9. Matt Murdock

10. Grant Ward

11. Giyera